Students of other Hung Gar Grandmasters

[GrMs]

Hello Jan Seung,

# I have read Chiu Chi Ling has many students worldwide.
Who 's is oldest student?
Who's the best?
And who's the most famous? #

I am also interested in the same questions concerning Grandmasters like Chiu Wai, Lam Chun Fai, Lam Chun Sing, and the like.

[Jan Seung]

Me too.
That's why I also post the topic of "Sons of Lam Cho".
First I think they don't teach, but they do.
But I haven''t heard of any students of them.

[David Jamieson]

Chiu Chi Ling is the youngest son of Chiu Kao. His (CK's) older son is Chiu Wai.

CCL is in Europe while CW is in Canada.

Lam Chun Fai is Lam Jo's son and he teaches Hung Gar in China. There is a story (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200108.html) on The Lam family and Lam Chun Fai in the March/April 2002 issue of Kungfu/Qigong Magazine.

There is also plenty of other articles in the back issues about the various families of Hung Gar related through lineage to Huang Fei Hung.

Click the Kungfu Magazine graphic at the top left of this page to get through to the main site and take a look at the back issues availabel through martial arts mart.

cheers

[hasayfu]

All the people you mention, Chiu Chi Ling, Chiu Wai, Lam Chun Fai and Lam Chun Sing teach and have taught for a long time. They are all great teachers and Hung Gar representatives. I have had the honor of meeting them all. Their students are in the 10,000s and span the globe.

Questions like oldest, best and most famous are subjective and hard to answer. None of them rank their students. Many are very private.

A quick google search will find a lot of their students.

Here are a few to get you started:

Chi Ling: http://www.shaolin.ch/en/wrapper/fs_news_d.html
Chiu Wai: http://www.geocities.com/hkhunggar/
Chun Fai: http://www.hungkuen.com/
Chun Sing: http://www.hungkuen.org/main.htm

Of course, my sifu is a student of Si-Gung Chiu Wai and Si-Gung Lum Jo... http://www.wle.com

Kung Lek, You are correct that CW lives in Canada but CCL is currently living in CA. Chun Fai and Chun Sing live in Hong Kong which is technically China but to an old f@rt like me, it's misleading :)

[David Jamieson]

in California now?

He's pretty popular in Northern Europe nevertheless. CCL that is.

And on the China thing...well it's been 6 years since the lease was up! lol

Let's not forget all the other not so famous lineages to Huang feihung too. Or to those who came before Huang and have spread the Shaolin and Hung styles all over the world.


cheers

[hasayfu]

6 years but 2 systems :)

Of course there are many Hung Gar masters. From Wong Fei Hong and not. I'd love to see them post. Some of them pretty famous...

[Firebird]

You forgot Bucksam Kong another wellknown student of
Lum Jo. http://www.bucksamkongkungfu.com

[David Jamieson]

There is also Y C Wong (http://www.tigercrane.com/master.html) in regards to Lam Jo's students. No doubt there are quite a few others as well who are masters in their own right in the Hung fist.

And Curtis Kautzman (http://www.fuhok.com) from both Chiu Kao and Lam Jo lineage vis a vis Chan Tai Ying and Kwong Wing Lam

cheers

[once ronin]

people can ask the higher ups like chiu wai or lum jo who is still alive.

some of the names in these post were never students of chiu kao or lum jo.

there is a few name in these post. not to stir up probs so not to name them would be better.

[David Jamieson]

Once R-

What are you talking about???

All the names listed are either direct students of Chiu or Lam or have learned from one of their senior students or sons.

Hardly 'not' stirring things up with a statement that some of these people haven't trained under the aformentioned Masters.

Anyway, everyone mentioned so far is in direct line to Lam and Chiu teachings.

cheers

[Jan Seung]

HaSayFu,

I see your sifu has two lineages.
Does it mean one set follows this person and the other set follows another, or how did your sifu "solve differences"

[hasayfu]

Jan Seung, actually we are tri-band :)

Sifu learned first from Chiu Wai then from Lum Jo (concurrently for a short while). He also learned from Leung Wah Chew (Ha say fu Hung Ga) while he was learning at Lum Jo's school.

If anyone has seen all the masters mentioned above. (which I have) You will quickly realize that Sifu has blended the three in the way he teaches the pillar forms. He is very straight forward about this saying, "my (wing lam's) sifu did this or did that and I teach it this way." He also gives his reason for doing things as every movement has purpose and conceptual significance. You may also notice a slight influence from his Bak Siu Lum.

That said, when I trained with both Si-Gung's Chiu Wai and Lum Jo, the differences were obvious but the similarities were more telling.

To once Ronin, *if* you are inferring my sifu, then no hard feelings since you are not the first. But since I did ask these two and have been shown the registration cards by both Si-Gungs in question, those false statements are old news with no truth.

I mention this because there aren't that many names on this thread. The sons are obvious students and YC Wong is proven. I am not 100% sure of Buck Sam Kong but I respect him and his students and their Hung Gar closely matches the Lam family. Plus he has had many visits with Lum Jo.

That leaves my sifu, which I explained, and Curtis Kautzman who *claims* lineage through my sifu and not directly to Chiu Wai or Lum Jo. 'nuff said.

[David Jamieson]

Kautzman claims lineage through Kwong Wing Lam and Chan Tai Ying.

For what it's worth, he's also trained with Chiu Wai, Vernon Rieta and a few other famous guys. He doesn't claim lineage through them though, but he can show that he has trained with them.

He is also head of the Canadian Hung Kuen association and has sparked a huge Hung gar interest in Sweden and other parts of Northern Europe.

The guy works hard at it. As hard as any of the rest.
Anyway, just saying.

cheers

[hasayfu]

No hidden agenda but just stating an observation.

I do not speak for Wing Lam but he has said he has never met Curtis Kautzman. He used to get christmas cards but that's it.

For Si-Gung Chiu Wai, I was there when he showed the letter to Sifu from Kautzman stating that he was Sifu's student and wanted to pay respect to his "si-gung." Sifu answered that this person has never learned from him.

As for Vernon Rietta, I do not dispute this at all. In fact, Curtis' Hung Gar from internet vids and pictures looks closest to Sifu Rietta though I've never seen him in person. Speaking of his Hung Gar, I have openly commented on it before and don't wish to get into that here. Some good, some not.

Now I'm willing to admit that Sifu could have forgotten a student from long time ago. He's personally taught over 10,000 people. But many of the old students drop by every now and then and he seems to remember them.

I've also found it strange that he travels all around the world and has pictures with a bunch of sifus but doesn't have a single picture with Sifu.

Again, no hidden agenda. I wish him well and he has done a lot to promote Hung Gar. He just doesn't represent Wing Lam Kung Fu as many believe.

[David Jamieson]

Well, I'm not saying I know anything about the personal training and lineages of anyone. I just See Kautzman as a promoter of the style of Hung Gar and he does good at it and by it.

But, everyone's Hung Gar is different, even in the same family!

The execution and performance of the pillar sets is all different in each instance I've seen.

For instance, Wing lam's Tid sen kuen differs from Chiu wai's and Chiu Wai's differs from his younger brother Chiu chi ling. This is where it is most interesting! I've had the pleasure of seeing each of them perform this set and was a little surprised that they are all essentially of the same lineage back to Lam Sai Wing and yet the form is different in each. Sequence, sounds, everything so very different from one to the next. I haven't seen Wongs version or Kongs version.

I could only recognize the form for it's unique dynamic tension expressed through out and it's 'breaths' which are not in the other sets to the same degree as the Iron wire.

So, it begs the question, how different is Hung Gar now from when it was first disseminated?

cheers

[Golden Arms]

This kind of stuff just cracks me up. Not only does it not matter, it REALLY DOESNT MATTER in the grand scheme of things. All that matters is does the guy know his stuff, can he pass it on, and possibly, can he move well. Lineage is just lame. It matters in that you know who to pay respect to, and from a historical viewpoint. But from a fighting or self defense viewpoint..not at all. A non lineage holder that can move well and trained hard is infinitely better to have as a teacher than a lineage holder who was not such a hard worker, or didnt have the right kind of mind for actually using his Martial skills, even if that person advances through the whole system.

A good example of this is Tit Sien Kuen. You can teach that form to anyone, but if you teach it to someone that knows 40 forms and is in ok shape and works out sporadically, is it going to benefit him even 1/3 as much as teaching it to someone that works out 5 or 6 days a week, and breathes and moves more in tune with his body, even if he only knows ONE form?

[hasayfu]

Golden Arms, I'm in 100% agreement with you. If a guy can learn from a video and kick a$$, that's great. If a guy can learn from the most famous sifu in the world but barely hold a stance, that's horrible. It only matters to let all aspects be known so everyone can come to their own conclusion.

My position has always been clear on this. Lineage is what it is. The point came up and I gave my side. I repeat, I wish Curtis well and I let his Kung Fu speak for itself.

Kung Lek, I'm with you to a point. We know that Wing Lam is a mix of different lineages and as you say even within a lineage, things can differ. That's why I am letting the kung fu speak for itself.

For Tit Sin, this is a great observation. Have you noticed that Wing Lam's Tit Sin changed from the WTN tape to the WLE tape? To my knowledge (and I can't speak for anything more then 15 years ago), Sifu has never performed the full Tit Sin in public. This doesn't even include the fact that since it's the highest set of Hung Gar, it is meant to be practiced in different ways.

My answer to your question, how is Hung gar today vs. the old? Almost entirely different. It's not the form or the sequence, it's the gungs and the fahts. Who trains that way any more? Who puts in the sweat AND study to achieve it. I've met a few who do. I've met a lot more who don't. Sadly, I'm closer to the latter group.

The knowledge is still out there. And that's a ray of hope.

Sorry GrMs for diverting the thread. It's somewhat related to students of Hung Gar grandmasters but is also floating to other topics.

[GrMs]

No problemo HaSayFu.

It seems that the most controversial Sifu are more responsible for spreading the art then those who walk in line.
And sure I can name a few.

[David Jamieson]

For Tit Sin, this is a great observation. Have you noticed that Wing Lam's Tit Sin changed from the WTN tape to the WLE tape?

As a matter of fact yes! lol.

I have them both actually and there is a variation from one to the next.
I have always considered Wing Lam as a pinnacle of Kungfu practice I guess. NOt that I over glamourize or anything, He does good kungfu though and it is always at least 1/2 a loaf better than most of what I see out there. Especially his Bak sil lum. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. My own sifus kungfu is pretty dang good and there is not a lot that compares to his ability either. but again, here nor there.

Goldenarms, I absolutely agree on the lineage thing in regards to those who didn't work hard and still out there pushing sub standard versions of Kungfu which in turn will eventually be washed out and useless martially.

I agree that the guy who truly understands does not need to come from a lineage at all. It's likely they don't need a focal point teacher for years and years either.

I have met folks who are hella fighters and never got a lick of instruction and I've met guys who have spent years training Kungfu and honestly just cannot fight. At least they get some health benefits though I guess.

Anyway, train on guys ;)

cheers

[SiJiHao]

Chan Hon Chung Co-found HKCMAA and establish many Si Fu as well.

Can contact HKCMAA for infomation regarding Chan Hon Chung Student.