To all the Shaolin Do detractors

[themeecer]

I stumbled onto these forums late last night and was surprised by what I have seen here. Surprise turned to anger and resulted in very little sleep for me.

A few of you have chosen to disrespect a man and an art that has been dear to me for 19 years. That cut deeply, very deeply. Your words were needles into my heart. I am trying not to allow your rude behavior reflect on my opinion of your particular schools, but you have insulted my family. I started training with Master Bob Green when I was 10 years old and have always admired the deep respect and love he shows to his teacher, Grandmaster Sin. I have had several family members and members of my church study with us over the years. Shaolin Do has been my life. Congratulations, you have succeeded in insulting my grandmaster, my teacher, my family, my art, and myself.

You say our art is not a true art, that it is made up junk. Funny, your words seem hollow when I think back to my training. When I was going through 3 hour conditioning classes with 50+ lbs strapped to me, hanging upside down doing situps while my teacher stood by with a stick to correct me if needed, your words seem hollow. When I am standing outside in the dark, late at night, practicing Tai Chi, Pau Qua, and Hsing I ... feeling chi course through my body, your words seem hollow. When I have had the misfortune to use my art in real confrontations, your words seem hollow. When I am rolling iron bars up my shins in pure agony for iron body training, your words seem hollow. When I am bouncing off the floor practicing levitational breathing (Hou tien chi), your words seem hollow. When I do basically anything in my art, from animal forms to drunken forms, weapons or conditioning, to pressure point manipulation, your words definitely seem hollow. Your words seem as hollow as the character you have expressed on these boards.

So bring the flames they will only solidify my opinions of you.

[MasterKiller]

1.6

[chen zhen]

...Levitational training..?!


































:confused: :eek:

[Suntzu]

WWBLD?

[MasterKiller]

I thought he was joking until I saw his homepage.

[Stacey]

good.. you got some exercise and basic chi kung. But your system is at best, bad kempo.

[Chang Style Novice]

> Congratulations, you have succeeded in insulting my grandmaster, my teacher, my family, my art, and myself.


No, not yet I haven't. In reverse order:

You're ugly and ya mama dresses you funny.

Shaolin do is ugly and it's mama dresses it funny.

Ya family is ugly and they mama dresses 'em funny

Bob Green is ugly and his mama dresses him funny.

Sin The is ugly and his mama dresses him funny.

Ahhhh! Mission accomplished!

(Thin skinned much?)

[Water Dragon]

Some people take this whole Martial Art thing way too seriously.

[Stacey]

After dedicated kung fu training, he loses sleep over the fact that everyone in the kung fu world thinks his Master is teaching junk?

If it really didn't bother him, why lose sleep? people have badmouthed my teachers on here. So what? A lot of people get bad mouthed, the difference is that everyone picks on shaolin do.

Its right up there with ashidakim....

[ewallace]

If it's a true art then why haven't we seen it win in the UFC?




:)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Stacey
After dedicated kung fu training, he loses sleep over the fact that everyone in the kung fu world thinks his Master is teaching junk?



Stacey, do you think you represent "everyone in the kung fu world?"

:rolleyes:

He shouldn't lose sleep over everyone's opinions here. I don't and you don't. This forum allows people to express whatever opinions you have and if you don't agree who cares?

themeecer: If you are happy with your training then go in peace. If your offended by anonymous opinions then don't read this forum. It's full of trolls. If you feel legitimately wronged and feel you can back it up then issue a challenge.

I have diligently defended SD, as I know it, on these forums. I have represented myself, my teachers, my style and GM Sin with honesty and respect. People are going to cast stones my way. I don't care. I want to learn about their styles and I want to understand why they feel so strongly about SD. Maybe some people will feel differently about SD maybe they won't. At least some people here, even though we disagree, disagree with respect. Fine. Others are flaming trolls that do not deserve the time of day.

You practice the same art that I do and you feel passionately about it. For that, I have your back. Having said that you will be more effective in making your points if you keep a calm head about everything.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by ewallace
If it's a true art then why haven't we seen it win in the UFC?




:)

How many CMA styles have won the UFC?

[ewallace]

Until a CMArtist wins, no real CMA will appear in the UFC.

[chen zhen]

................levitational training?!...............................:confused : :eek:




:D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by chen zhen
................levitational training?!...............................:confused : :eek:




:D

He said levitational breathing not training. I'm thinking there is a difference. Honestly, I haven't heard of that in SD.

[MasterKiller]

If, by levitational training, he means sitting in the lotus position and 'hopping' across a mat to try to achieve levitation, then I have absolutely no reason to listen to anything else he says.

[chen zhen]

he said he tried to bounce off the floor while training in his first message. so JP, I was right.;)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by chen zhen
he said he bounced off the floor in his first message. so JP, I was right.;)

I bounce off the floor sometimes too, but I wasn't levitating before I did it. :confused:

[Waidan]

Did he say "death touch"?

[Chang Style Novice]

I thought levitational training involved sitting in lotus position for a couple of hours after eating chili dogs.

[chen zhen]

When I am bouncing off the floor practicing levitational breathing, your words seem hollow.
this was what he actually said. And JP, I edited my message afterwards, too.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Waidan
Did he say "death touch"?

A swift kick to the temple would constitute a death touch wouldn't it? How about a Hsing-I strike to the heart? These things can be a death touch.

If he means lighlty placing his hand on someone else's body and they fall over dead, then I don't know what he is referring to. SD does teach pressure points in its chin na application. Whether some of these have lethal applications I don't know because I never trained much in that area.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

You practice the same art that I do and you feel passionately about it. For that, I have your back. Having said that you will be more effective in making your points if you keep a calm head about everything.

Cheers friend. Awesome name by the way. Are you SD or Central Shaolin?

I felt I did have a calm head, you should have seen what I edited. :D

My biggest problem is that I would never disrespect another school and am confounded why others would. At a recent tournament I attended I cheered for the other Kung Fu schools. Also I watched a very good traditional Karate student compete in kata competition and later praised him on his martial spirit.


He said levitational breathing not training. I'm thinking there is a difference. Honestly, I haven't heard of that in SD.

Yes levitation would involve my other skills as a magician. I was speaking of Hou Tien Chi training, which I am sure you are aware of. For the others, it shouldn't be too hard to research on the web. I used the term "levitational breathing" because that is what I have seen it most referred as.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

If he means lighlty placing his hand on someone else's body and they fall over dead, then I don't know what he is referring to. SD does teach pressure points in its chin na application. Whether some of these have lethal applications I don't know because I never trained much in that area.

Actually those could be some applications but I prefer the less lethal ones. For example, ones used to knock people out by sharp taps to the arm or other areas. Anything else I will PM you about sometime if you like.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by themeecer


Cheers friend. Awesome name by the way. Are you SD or Central Shaolin?

I felt I did have a calm head, you should have seen what I edited. :D

My biggest problem is that I would never disrespect another school and am confounded why others would. At a recent tournament I attended I cheered for the other Kung Fu schools. Also I watched a very good traditional Karate student compete in kata competition and later praised him on his martial spirit.



Yes levitation would involve my other skills as a magician. I was speaking of Hou Tien Chi training, which I am sure you are aware of. For the others, it shouldn't be too hard to research on the web. I used the term "levitational breathing" because that is what I have seen it most referred as.

I'm SD. A student of Master Mullins. Same rank as you.

As for why people disrespect other styles here: That's the beauty of anonymity. People can say whatever they want here with little chance of actually having to back it up. There are some honorable martial artisits on this site. Even some that have real problems with SD. The simply express an opinion from a position of respect.

I know Shien Tien Chi training, but that doesn't involve levitation. I don't know of any SD training that involves levitation. A big part of the problem most people have with SD is that some students make outrageous claims of skill. Honestly, that's how your message came across.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
If, by levitational training, he means sitting in the lotus position and 'hopping' across a mat to try to achieve levitation, then I have absolutely no reason to listen to anything else he says.

Good, then leave. ;)

I am not trying to achieve "levitation," it is a practice of chi development. I will not be guilty of throwing pearls to swines so I will cut it at that.


I thought levitational training involved sitting in lotus position for a couple of hours after eating chili dogs.

Actually I was a master at this many years ago. The force is strong in me. Your wimpy skills are no match for my butt fu. The sound of my kiai is enough to make small children cower in fear and don gas masks. *cheers*

[Shuul Vis]

Here are some shaolin-do sparring clips.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/SparringAug&Kofi_noaudio.avi

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/SparringKristin&Trisha_noaudio.avi

[MasterKiller]

big part of the problem most people have with SD is that some students make outrageous claims of skill. I would say that the majority of the people here disrespect Shaolin-Do because of what it's Grandmaster says, not because of his students' actions.


Good, then leave.
I was here first, so if I leave, I'm taking my ball with me. ;)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shuul Vis
Here are some shaolin-do sparring clips.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/SparringAug&Kofi_noaudio.avi

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/SparringKristin&Trisha_noaudio.avi

The sparring clip of the two girls was infinatley better than "Ba Gua" fighter a couple of weeks ago. The brunette kept he hands up and covered very well.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I would say that the majority of the people here disrespect Shaolin-Do because of what it's Grandmaster says, not because of his students' actions.

You are right. That is the largest source of the animosity here, but I've always know GM Sin to be a very humble and respectful man.

[MasterKiller]

The sparring clip of the two girls was infinatley better than "Ba Gua" fighter a couple of weeks ago. The brunette kept he hands up and covered very well.
It's easy to look good when you know you aren't going to get hit. Besides, the other girl drops her hands every time she kicks, which is an invitation for a nose job.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


I'm SD. A student of Master Mullins. Same rank as you.

As for why people disrespect other styles here: That's the beauty of anonymity. People can say whatever they want here with little chance of actually having to back it up. There are some honorable martial artisits on this site. Even some that have real problems with SD. The simply express an opinion from a position of respect.

I know Shien Tien Chi training, but that doesn't involve levitation. I don't know of any SD training that involves levitation. A big part of the problem most people have with SD is that some students make outrageous claims of skill. Honestly, that's how your message came across.

Master Mullins? I love that guy. I wish some of these detractors could see him in action.

If you know Shien Tien Chi training then you know Hou Tien Chi ... it is the precurser. You even said you bounced. I never claimed to "levitate" I just used a term that I thought would be understood.

[Judge Pen]

Yep. Back to that iron face training! :D

[huafist]

The interesting point is that most people talking about GM Sin have never met him. I still believe you should take nothing on faith. What I believe I believe from experience within the system and in meeting GM Sin. But I do not expect anyone to share my views without having shared my experiences.

On the other hand I think we are all bored at work and nothing gets things going like a good ol' SD debate.

[Kristoffer]

Oh brother.... :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

I remember quite some time ago, a SD school put a bunch of their forms up on te web. I looked at all of them. In all honesty, NONE of those sets were even remotely represeative of the styles claimed. Take the "Mantis" form for example, it looked like a Shotokan Karate kata with some mantis claww techniques just thrown in randomly for good measure. It had none of the flow, power generation, body structure or even general spirit of authentic Preying mantis kung fu. It wasn't even bad mantis, it plain out wasnt mantis at all. Don't get me wrong, the performer looked good and all, and was ovbiously well practiced at what he was doing, but does that make it Preying mantis? Nope, it does not.

I have been following this SD thing for years now, and I hace come to one conclusion, SD is fantisy fu for the genral public. It's not Karrate, it's not Kempo, and it's certianly not Kung Fu in any way shape or form. Heck, the words "Shaolin Do" are not even gramatically correct.

Shaolin Do is it's own beast, period. I believe it was created by Sin The himself, and is a hodge podged collection of his personal studies, combined with whatever books he's got in his library. It would be more accurrate to call it "Sin The' Fu" than anything else, because THAT is what it is. It's the original Mc kwoon, dojo.

[MasterKiller]

The interesting point is that most people talking about GM Sin have never met him. I still believe you should take nothing on faith. What I believe I believe from experience within the system and in meeting GM Sin. But I do not expect anyone to share my views without having shared my experiences.


What are your feelings on his book? (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0787212423/qid=1056394995/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-2368082-0781757?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[Kristoffer]

McDojos are fun but the 'students' from it can be a bit ignorant and naive. This thread made me come to the decision to find a mcdojo this summer, enter it and kick naive *****s like these to a coma :)

Thank You themeecer for giving me inspiration.

[Chang Style Novice]

"Shaolin Do is it's own beast, period. I believe it was created by Sin The himself, and is a hodge podged collection of his personal studies, combined with whatever books he's got in his library. It would be more accurrate to call it "Sin The' Fu" than anything else, because THAT is what it is. It's the original Mc kwoon, dojo."

This seems pretty likely to me. And if Sin The makes it work for him and is able to teach other folks to be effective fighters with it, I don't see any problem with it. It's the question of calling it Shaolin that gets folks most het up, I think. Well, that and the gigantic plethora of forms, which seems to indicate a lack of focus.

[norther practitioner]

When I am bouncing off the floor practicing levitational breathing, your words seem hollow. When I do basically anything in my art, from animal forms to drunken forms, weapons or conditioning, to death touch, your words definitely seem hollow.



For example, ones used to knock people out by sharp taps to the arm or other areas. Anything else I will PM you about sometime if you like.

lol
death touch, by name understandably, can you describe the training behind tapping someones arm and knocking them out. I know there are pressure points in the arm, but still, knock outs....


You did say bouncing off the floor practicing levitational breathing.... expect some critics for this, as it does sound like you are "bouncing" not jumping or anything else... and "levitating."

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, it's defenetly the claim of being the one and only shaolin school that gets people so riled up for sure. If Sin The did like I do, and honestly say what he teaches is his personal journy through the arts and is made up of stuff he learned form many different sources, including the text books and manuals he's researched, I don't think anyone would have all that much of a problem with him. It's the fact that he has to make himself out to be the only keeper of the original, and only art that peeves people. It's like saying "Nana nana nanaaaaaa, I've got the only true, right correct arrrrtttt and you got nuuuti'nnnnnnnnn!". That just p.isses people off to no end, especially those who actually DO have one of the many legit authentic transmissions and Sin The is obviously just making his own thing up as he goes along.

His claims are arrogant, and insuting to all of us.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

shaolin do is responsible for the deaths of countless innocents.

ever since shaolin do started women and children have been dying all over the world.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
McDojos are fun but the 'students' from it can be a bit ignorant and naive. This thread made me come to the decision to find a mcdojo this summer, enter it and kick naive *****s like these to a coma :)

Thank You themeecer for giving me inspiration.

There's a school in Knoxville if you ever get up this way. :rolleyes:

[Kristoffer]

"shaolin do is responsible for the deaths of countless innocents.
ever since shaolin do started women and children have been dying all over the world."


Cool, less idiots :D

"There's a school in Knoxville if you ever get up this way"

Good I'll check it out next time I'm in the area.. :rolleyes:

[huafist]

Masterkiller-
I liked the book.

GDA-
Shaolin-Do is also responsible for countless hours of lost work time. Only Ashida Kim and MMA vs TMA have resulted in more hours of pointless debate at the expense of the American Economy.

[MasterKiller]

Masterkiller-
I liked the book.

I liked Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, but I didn't believe a word of it.

Do you believe everything he says in that book?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Shaolin-Do is also responsible for countless hours of lost work time. Only Ashida Kim and MMA vs TMA have resulted in more hours of pointless debate at the expense of the American Economy.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


There's a school in Knoxville if you ever get up this way. :rolleyes:

Wait wait .. he has to come by Somerset first. :D


lol
death touch, by name understandably, can you describe the training behind tapping someones arm and knocking them out. I know there are pressure points in the arm, but still, knock outs....


You did say bouncing off the floor practicing levitational breathing.... expect some critics for this, as it does sound like you are "bouncing" not jumping or anything else... and "levitating."


No, I won't describe the training. I have a very very minor knowledge of these skills. Just enough to know that they are real. And yes there are knock outs among many other things, I am surprised you haven't been exposed to this.

About all I will say about the levitational breathing, is that we are not consciously "jumping." It almost resembles an epileptic fit. It is an exhilarating experience. If you ever get a chance to take these types of classes, jump in with both feet. No pun intended. ;)

[huafist]

I believe that he believes it. I believe the Iron Bone training because I have done it. I believe GM Sin, because I trust him.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by themeecer


Master Mullins? I love that guy. I wish some of these detractors could see him in action.



There's an open tournament in November in Johnson City Tennessee. All styles. Master Mullins does the demo at night. Sin The has been there the last two years.

[Kristoffer]

"Wait wait .. he has to come by Somerset first"

wait.. really wait, there's a school in stockholm that you could visit.. :rolleyes:

I wasn't even talkin about your dog praising cult, I was talkin about visiting some mcdojos around my city (wich if you havn't noticed is located in a different country than yours) and have some fun. If I ever decided to go to the us, I would visit your club n have a go.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't believe anything that comes from Sin The, because I have seen his falsehoods.

[Golden Arms]

This End the Debate..., January 21, 2003
Reviewer: A reader from Lexington, KY
To all the skeptics out there, did you know Grandmaster The has a statue at the Shaolin temple? Put up by the Abbot as his recognition of Grandmaster The's authenticity? Did you know the older monks at Shaolin stand in awe and amazement as Shaolin-do students perform fighting forms they haven't seen in years? Did you know that Shaolin-do has stone tablets at most of the Shaolin temples in China? Would they let a Tae Kwon Do guy show up out of no where and put up a statue or tablet outside their temple doors? Do you think they would do these things lightly? ENOUGH SAID. Buy the book, folks, you may learn something...
_

Is this true? I am not saying anything..but can any of these claims be verified? Gene Ching Please get on here and tell me if you have seen evidence of this at Shaolin.

[MasterKiller]

He has a plaque, not a statue, for which he paid $2000, just like a lot of other schools. :rolleyes:

[huafist]

The tablet was put up as a gift to GM Sin by the Soards. They paid their "donation" and the tablet was put up. I don't think the abbott decreed the tablet should go up, although he did meet GM Sin. And from what I understand, yes Tae Kwon Do schools and some Corporations have tablets as well.

[Kristoffer]

even if it's true.. SO WHAT? :mad: The Shaolin Temple is not a temple. It's not a source for martial arts anymore. It has nothing to do with traditional martial art. It's a tourist attraction, at best

[MasterKiller]

It's a tourist attraction, at best
That's just what George Bush wants you to believe. If the media wasn't controlled by the Republican Christian Crusaders, you would see otherwise...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
"Wait wait .. he has to come by Somerset first"

wait.. really wait, there's a school in stockholm that you could visit.. :rolleyes:

I wasn't even talkin about your dog praising cult, I was talkin about visiting some mcdojos around my city (wich if you havn't noticed is located in a different country than yours) and have some fun. If I ever decided to go to the us, I would visit your club n have a go.

Dam. I though you just sort of walked the earth. You know like that guy in "Kung Fu."

[Kristoffer]

""That's just what George Bush wants you to believe. If the media wasn't controlled by the Republican Christian Crusaders, you would see otherwise...""



I don't live in your ****ing country! But yeah Bush is my president, and what the hey, I'll visit Noxville and Sumerset next week.. Why the **** not? :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Well, I think it's more than a mear tourist atraction. Some Great Kung Fu goes on there, and great modern Whu Shu does too.

And yes, I have heard of TKD schools having plaques at Shaolin too. A plaque at Shaolin does not denotate authenticity, it denotates contrabution to Shaolin, usually a monatary one. I could have a Royal Dragon Kung Fu plaque put up there if I wanted to fork out $2000 US just like anyone else. If I did, would my Kung Fu could be considred more legit than it is now? Nope, I would just be recognised for helping to fund the Temple, that's all.

Besides, I think there is already a plaque in honor of Sung Tai Tzu there anyway. He died in 978 AD.

[Kristoffer]

"Dam. I though you just sort of walked the earth. You know like that guy in "Kung Fu."


Nope

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
"Dam. I though you just sort of walked the earth. You know like that guy in "Kung Fu."


Nope

My bad then.

[MasterKiller]

JP,
Where is the Southern (Fukein) influence in SD? The footwork in those videos is (kinda) Northern.

[Kristoffer]

"My bad then."

It's cool

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
JP,
Where is the Southern (Fukein) influence in SD? The footwork in those videos is (kinda) Northern.

Which form(s) are you referring to?

[MasterKiller]

The ones from here (http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/video.jsp)

Granted, these are just a few of the 900 forms, but I was curious to know where the Southern influence can most easily be seen in SD.

[Brad]

Master Mullins? I love that guy. I wish some of these detractors could see him in action.
Actually, he used to have clips online and links were posted on here a couple times. I might still have some on my old computer, but I think I deleted them.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
The ones from here (http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/video.jsp)

Granted, these are just a few of the 900 forms, but I was curious to know where the Southern influence can most easily be seen in SD.

MK,

I'm not playing games with you here. I just meant which particular forms? Some are northern and some are southern. The tiger/crane is the most obvious southern. The Hua is northern but I don't know that form.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad

Actually, he used to have clips online and links were posted on here a couple times. I might still have some on my old computer, but I think I deleted them.

If I recall you were not impressed with what you saw. Correct?

[MasterKiller]

I'm not playing games with you here. I just meant which particular forms? Some are northern and some are southern. The tiger/crane is the most obvious southern (and its the worst performance on that site) The Hua is northern but I don't know that form so I really can't comment on whether its performed correctly or not.

I'm not commenting on the performances. I'm just looking at the curriculum in general. There is a lot of Northen stuff, and stuff I don't recognize, so I was just asking you which forms represent the Southern influence.

[Brad]

If I recall you were not impressed with what you saw. Correct?

Not particularly. But I will give him credit in that he does seem to be in excellent physical condition for a man his age... so whatever I might think of the forms, SD isn't the completely worthless undertaking that many make it out to be ;) And I'll admit, I've seen much worse from many sources that have been more accepted as "legit" by comunity :p

[Black Jack]

How a person can figure that they can get quality knowledge from a field of lies is beyond me. I am not talking about lineage bullcrap or ego but just why would a person stay with a organization so bent over the barrel with its own deception?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


I'm not commenting on the performances. I'm just looking at the curriculum in general. There is a lot of Northen stuff, and stuff I don't recognize, so I was just asking you which forms represent the Southern influence.

In looking at the forms posted, most of it is Northern. Tiger Crane and the Black Tigers are not. The "China Hand" is also southern. If I'm not mistaken, short Form is also southern. Most of our rank up to 1st black is southern and there is not much of that material represented on that site.

Which forms do you recognize being southern and which do you not recognize?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad


Not particularly. But I will give him credit in that he does seem to be in excellent physical condition for a man his age... so whatever I might think of the forms, SD isn't the completely worthless undertaking that many make it out to be ;) And I'll admit, I've seen much worse from many sources that have been more accepted as "legit" by comunity :p

That's close to a compliment! :)

[Brad]

Got anymore info on that Tenn. tournement? That's not too far away, and I don't think I've got anything going on in November :)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
Got anymore info on that Tenn. tournement? That's not too far away, and I don't think I've got anything going on in November :)

Not yet. I'll know more specifics when the time comes. If it's like the last two years then it will be something like this: For black sashes there are several different events. Exteranal empty hand forms. External weapons; Internal forms (weapons and empty hand in same division); all weight point sparring and non-stop sparring divided in light and heavy wieght. The non-stop is not full contact, but its heavier contact than point. Non-stop is two rounds of 90 seconds with 4 judges and a ref. Each judge picks a winner of the round. Most rounds won wins the match.

BTW, I hate point sparring and think it's a waste, but I compete to get warmed up and to size up some of the competition for non-stop.

Last year the karate people had their own division because they didn't like our rules. Groin kicks and support leg sweeps are fair game. We even had a guy try to use caporeia in the tournament. He turned a kartwheel and then ate a side kick!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


In looking at the forms posted, most of it is Northern. Tiger Crane and the Black Tigers are not. The "China Hand" is also southern. If I'm not mistaken, short Form is also southern. Most of our rank up to 1st black is southern and there is not much of that material represented on that site.

Which forms do you recognize being southern and which do you not recognize?
I'm looking here: http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

I don't recognize anything until the first Black. But most of the stuff from Black to Black 3 looks internal. The Black 3 stuff looks mostly Northern. I don't recognize any of the open-hand forms on Black 4.

Of course, what I don't know can fill a book.

BTW---What dialect/language is "Chien"? I've seen Quan, and Chuan, but not Chien before.

[Chang Style Novice]

French - it means dog.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

I'm looking here: http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

I don't recognize anything until the first Black. But most of the stuff from Black to Black 3 looks internal. The Black 3 stuff looks mostly Northern. I don't recognize any of the open-hand forms on Black 4.

Of course, what I don't know can fill a book.

BTW---What dialect/language is "Chien"? I've seen Quan, and Chuan, but not Chien before.

Chien? It may be Indonesian; that's where GM Sin is from.

The internal doesn't start until Black with the exception of "San Njie" Lo Han Chien is Northern, The Tai Paing, "Shaolin Bird" and White Crane are Southern.

[Golden Arms]

I dont care to comment on any of the other forms..but the way that version of fu hok/tiger crane was done is 'interesting' Like its almost there, but none of the subtleties are there..and the regular movements are just plain funky to my eye. Still..it IS fu hok...it might have been taken from a book or a poster or a real person, who knows..but I can at least say that that form for one is similar in some ways to the way it is taught in southern Hung Gar.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
I dont care to comment on any of the other forms..but the way that version of fu hok/tiger crane was done is 'interesting' Like its almost there, but none of the subtleties are there..and the regular movements are just plain funky to my eye. Still..it IS fu hok...it might have been taken from a book or a poster or a real person, who knows..but I can at least say that that form for one is similar in some ways to the way it is taught in southern Hung Gar.

I just checked out the videos in question. And I agree that those regular movements look a little funky to my eye as well .. especially considering I know the exact same form. I did like the layout of their site and some of the videos. Unlike Tae Kwon Do which is almost uniform universally, there is a lot of diversity in the performance of our forms. You can go to different schools of Shaolin Do in the same city and see variances. I am not saying one is better than the other, just different. My personal preference, I do my forms and teach them a lot more flowing and pronounced. I see this site emphasis's more snap. While I definitely have "snap" in my forms, I utilize it at different moments or not at all. To me this would give the appearance of the same form looking more karate-esq versus it looking Chinese. (I might not have worded that well) And once again this doesn't denote superiority because a good practitioner of both schools of thought would be a formidable opponent.

[old jong]

You levitate?....
Anyway,you are welcome to the forum.

[Serpent]

Too funny.

:D

[themeecer]

Originally posted by old jong
You levitate?....
Anyway,you are welcome to the forum.

No I do not.

[Serpent]

Yet you learn from a man that claims he can swim with his tits?

:rolleyes:

:D

[themeecer]

Yes I do. Never heard it phrased quite that way before. Is something like that so unbelievable when we have seen so many other unexplainable Qi Gong feats performed? With my own meager skills I have done things that I would have said was impossible prior to my training.

If other masters can hang cars from their schlong my master can swim with his tits. :D

[Serpent]

Oh lordy!

Hey, if you dig it, then roll with it.

But don't expect to come here and change anyone's mind.

;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by themeecer
Yes I do. Never heard it phrased quite that way before. Is something like that so unbelievable when we have seen so many other unexplainable Qi Gong feats performed? With my own meager skills I have done things that I would have said was impossible prior to my training.

If other masters can hang cars from their schlong my master can swim with his tits. :D

Bet he can't swim with his schlong though :D

Do you really believe he can swim with his tits?

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Serpent
Oh lordy!

Hey, if you dig it, then roll with it.

But don't expect to come here and change anyone's mind.

;)

Didn't come here to change anyone's mind. Came here to state my feelings towards disrespectable people.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by joedoe


Bet he can't swim with his schlong though :D

Do you really believe he can swim with his tits?

Yes I do. I was a lifeguard and I swam a lot. With enough practice I could swim with my arms and legs bound. You would use your pectorial muscles along with your torso muscles to "wiggle" while holding enough air in your lungs so you float. (Wouldn't move that fast but would stay afloat and move a little) I would have believed this before studying the martial arts.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by themeecer


Yes I do. I was a lifeguard and I swam a lot. With enough practice I could swim with my arms and legs bound. You would use your pectorial muscles along with your torso muscles to "wiggle" while holding enough air in your lungs so you float. (Wouldn't move that fast but would stay afloat and move a little) I would have believed this before studying the martial arts.

You talking about the 'dolphin kick'? If so then it is not so amazing, and it certainly isn't just swimming with your pecs.

[themeecer]

Not the dolphin kick .. that one is easy. I was talking about tying your feet together and then bending your legs at the knees in order to tie your feet to your bound hands behind your back.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer


Didn't come here to change anyone's mind. Came here to state my feelings towards disrespectable people.

Don't you think it's pretty disrespectful to build a phoney martial arts empire on a stack of lies?

[Brad]

Didn't come here to change anyone's mind. Came here to state my feelings towards disrespectable people.
Maybe you should have a chat with your grandmaster then.


Shaolin Do is the most complete and comprehensive martial arts system in the world.
This could be considered a bit disrespectful & arogant in my opinion.


"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.'
This could be pretty insulting to anyone who participates in tournements... not to mention an idiotic statement :D


In China today, the term wushu refers to a sport based on the movements of classical martial arts. It is the Western countries, Hong Kong and Taiwan that are keeping the traditional martial arts alive.
This sounds pretty insulting to any traditional master from the mainland(like my teacher)...

http://www.shaolin-do.com

[African Tiger]

Well maybe if your Master here on the West Coast wasn't such a punk and a businessman (Chinese Shao-lin Center, Northridge, CA), you people might earn some respect.

Of course if he wasn't the aforementioned, I'd have been suckered into their crappy art and not taking instruction from a Taoist Priest, as I am doing right now ;) Thanks Sow Lame Do! You steered me into a REAL kung fu school!

[themeecer]

Who is the Master on the west coast? If it is part of the Swords (sp?) then I don't know much about them. We have no dealings with them.

And what is wrong with them being businessmen? In order for our arts to survive our teachers need to put food on their table, lest they look for work elsewhere.

And stop with the insults. I am not insulting your art (your fro is a different story ;) ). Let me assure you, I learned to defend myself and I learned well. If this was my goal how is my art a crappy art?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
And stop with the insults. I am not insulting your art (

Hmmm... I wonder why some arts get insulted and others don't?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent


Hmmm... I wonder why some arts get insulted and others don't?

Ooooooh, I don't know. :D

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Serpent


Hmmm... I wonder why some arts get insulted and others don't?

Because some people are more mature than others.

[Serpent]

I'm sure you'd love to think that, but why don't you take off the blinkers and think again...

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Serpent
I'm sure you'd love to think that, but why don't you take off the blinkers and think again...

*grin* Thank you, you proved my point.

Goodbye.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer


*grin* Thank you, you proved my point.

Goodbye.

Was that one of your magic tricks? What point have I proven?

[TjD]

shaolin-do doesn't have any wing chun forms, or claim to have the true lineage there as well do they?

you should stop by the wing chun forum and we could have a GRAND ol' lineage discussion!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by TjD
shaolin-do doesn't have any wing chun forms, or claim to have the true lineage there as well do they?

you should stop by the wing chun forum and we could have a GRAND ol' lineage discussion!

I met some wing chun people last year when I was on vacation. I haven't had any expereince withthem before. Friendly lot, but they kept asking about linage. :)

Anyway, I was at the outer banks and went to the beach about 11:00 p.m. that night to practice. There were a bunch of people around a bon-fire. I started my forms about 50 or so yards away. Started out with Tai chi 24 and then Pa Kua. Ended my set with two spear forms I was working on. Two of the guys had been watching me and said "nice spear work. What's your lineage?" I said Shaolin-do and they went "Oh." I'm not sure if they had any opinions of SD and just didn't know or that they were embarrassed that they had complimented my form before learning that I wasn't doing "real" kung fu. :D

[MasterKiller]

The only time you should train on a beach is the night before you are supposed to fight the evil b@stard that murdered your master/best friend and/or raped your sister/mother.

Any other beach training is strictly g@y.

[BeiKongHui]

Do any of you Shaolin Do rubes even know that Shaolin Do isn't the real name for the The' brother's art? That's just a name Sin The gave it so the hicks in late 60's early 70's Kentucky would believe they could become Cain from that horrible Carradine show. It's really called Cheng Feng Do or something of the sort.

I've met Sin The, Leonard and many of Sin's original students (most of who have seen the light) I was not impressed. You want respect? You'll get none from me.

BTW, I'd take care of my hips if I were you. Most of the long time SD people over in Lexington have had to have surgery/replacements from the hip damage casued by SD's bad training methods and poor structure.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
The only time you should train on a beach is the night before you are supposed to fight the evil b@stard that murdered your master/best friend and/or raped your sister/mother.

Any other beach training is strictly g@y.

I trained on the beach because that's where I was that week. Don't let opportunities pass you by.

[Radhnoti]

BKH,

Hiang calls his school "Chung Yen Shaolin" and his students have been told that this was the name in Indonesia. GM Sin says it was changed to shaolin-do before coming to the U.S. ...either way shaolin was a part of the name.
Would you mind giving us specifics about how " Most of the long time SD people over in Lexington have had to have surgery/replacements from the hip damage." Thanks.

You still training WC? Hope it's going well for you, take care.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BeiKongHui


BTW, I'd take care of my hips if I were you. Most of the long time SD people over in Lexington have had to have surgery/replacements from the hip damage casued by SD's bad training methods and poor structure.

Like Sifu Dufresne? He has bad hips too. You blaming that on SD?

I have no qualms with the Ng family kung fu. I wasn't around during all the bad blood and I don't care about old wounds. I you don't respect me, then fine. Go in peace.

[BeiKongHui]

hey rad- Yeah still doing Wing Chun, doing some wrestling and western sword too.

I don't really know enough about hip injuries to be specific but I do know that several of the older guys I know that did SD. It seems that something they do grinds it down to the point in needs replacing. I know one old guy who keeps doing SD and has to keep getting his hip replacement repaired. I suspect it's because some small things are over looked in training stances and the like.

Judge Pen-I don't do Ng Family martial arts my Wing Chun is Yip Man/Wong Shun Leung style. Much less flowery and more combative than Ng's Wing Chun. Did Dufresne do SD? Maybe that (among other things) is a reason for the hip trouble.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BeiKongHui


Judge Pen-I don't do Ng Family martial arts my Wing Chun is Yip Man/Wong Shun Leung style. Much less flowery and more combative than Ng's Wing Chun. Did Dufresne do SD? Maybe that (among other things) is a reason for the hip trouble.

My apologies then. I knew from your other posts that you knew of Dufresne.

[Shaolin-Do]

Bahahaha....
I have bad knees.
Its because of arthritis.
I have good training methods. I am shaolin-Do.
I am not the art form, but a name. No one bothered to differentiate. What if I thought I was being talked about the whole time?
??
????
:)
Anyhoo, they took away my internet at work.
I had to sneak on a computer in the back. Gotta go again after I read some more posts. Guess Ill troll later.

[shadow]

Swimming with your hand and feet bound... Actually, its not such a hard thing to do. US Naval Divers train this way quiet often.

[MasterKiller]

Swimming with your hand and feet bound... Actually, its not such a hard thing to do. US Naval Divers train this way quiet often. Sure, but can Navy Divers develop ESP from training to swim that way? If not, they are inferior.;)

[Shaolin-Do]

Awful *******s, taking away my internet, making me sneak to the back. :(
I can swim with my hands and feet tied.
Not if my hands are tied to my feet tho.... that would be some sh!t.

[norther practitioner]

What if I thought I was being talked about the whole time?
If you thought that you would have confirmed most of our assumptions....:D

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
shaolin do is responsible for the deaths of countless innocents.

ever since shaolin do started women and children have been dying all over the world.

Best.
Comeback.
Ever.

As far as Shaolin-Do and Wing Chun goes, (and this goes to anyone) if you spar a Wing Chun guy, just say his lineage sucks and is all wrong and he'll start arguing with himself and you can defeat him.

[BeiKongHui]

or the WC guy will just get mad and kill the SD guy most likely.

[GLW]

Masterkiller,

actually, if you find an area of the beach where NO ONE is around and practice there, it is a good thing.

I did that several years ago in San Diego....hit the beach in the early afternoon during the week...no one is around...

The sand makes practicing Taijiquan much harder. You have the dynamics of pushing into your stances - especially if yo train low stances - and having the ground beneath you change. It definitely works your legs.

Then, you have things like single leg stances and kicks that become more difficult due to shifting sand while trying to balance on one leg...

However, I would not want to do that when others are around...distracting and speaks of showing off...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by GLW
Masterkiller,

actually, if you find an area of the beach where NO ONE is around and practice there, it is a good thing.

I did that several years ago in San Diego....hit the beach in the early afternoon during the week...no one is around...

The sand makes practicing Taijiquan much harder. You have the dynamics of pushing into your stances - especially if yo train low stances - and having the ground beneath you change. It definitely works your legs.

Then, you have things like single leg stances and kicks that become more difficult due to shifting sand while trying to balance on one leg...

However, I would not want to do that when others are around...distracting and speaks of showing off...

That's why I go early in the morning and late at night to avoid people.

[The Willow Sword]

Hey guys? (non-Sd people) you remember when I used to be like this?

It feels very good to be free of it. You know what i say?

let them do what it is that they do,,,they dont hurt you guys and they certainly arent tainting anything valid, in my opinion.

i know its good to get the blood stirred up every now and then.
but it may be that there are better ways to stir things up ,,say like TRAINING at your kwoon or dojo and letting things be.

i have freed myself of the organization,,,,,,maybe its time all the non-sd peeps free themselves of the unending dribble of posts on this subject and we can get back to more important matters.

such as "would bruce lee be able to kick vin diesels A$$ in a cage match?";) :p :o :) :D

Many respects,,,The Willow sword.

[Serpent]

I still want to know what point meecer thinks I proved.

[Shaolin-Do]

WWJD for a klon**** bar?

[Royal Dragon]

I can't belive they censored "Klon****". I normally don't html around the censor, but Come Onnnnn!!! It's a frik'n Ice Cream bar!!!

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Serpent
I still want to know what point meecer thinks I proved.

I think he said the reason why (too lazy to go back) was because people are stupid, ignorant and arrogant, you right after he said it, you said something that he found to be stupid, ignorant and arrogant.

[Serpent]

Maybe.

Trouble is, it's easy for him to dismiss anything he doesn't agree with that way, therefore continuing to be blinded by any truths that shake his paradigm.

Sad.

[joedoe]

That is because you are being stupid, ignorant and arrogant, and continue to engage in namecalling :D

[Serpent]

It would be funnier if it wasn't so sad, huh!

;)

[joedoe]

There you go, getting into namecalling again. :D

I have given up on arguing about it. It really doesn't get me anywhere. It is entertaining though.

Have you noticed how many SD threads have popped up all over the place?

[Serpent]

Yeah, Shaolin-Do is like herpes. Once you've been exposed, it keeps cropping up for life.

[joedoe]

And a whole bunch of SD practitioners have joined the forum recently too. I smell a conspiracy :D

[Laughing Cow]

The only thing I find sadder than guys attacking another school/style, are the hordes to come online to defend it.

You can see it often, one guy has a disagreement with one guy/school/style and next his students/ disciples/whatever come online and try to "beat" down the agressor by massing up on him/her/them.

Shakes head in disbelief.

[joedoe]

I dunno, that is how I ended up on KFO. Goktimus Prime was slagging off my school so I hopped online to defend it. :D

See: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6107&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

[Serpent]

And the dropped pie thread is reborn AGAIN!

LOL.

:D

LC - It's probably Sin The' phoning all his cronies to defend him. They're all brainwashed after all, so it'd be easy to do.

Ah, there I go again. I just can't help myself!

:p

[joedoe]

I am just trying to relive the glory days Serp :D

[Serpent]

Golden days of STRAINED LIGAMENTS!

:D

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Serpent
LC - It's probably Sin The' phoning all his cronies to defend him.

I doubt if he even has heard of KFO or cares for it.
Naah, just some SD students that feel they need to uphold the honour and integrity of their art.

Seen it often, hey I got a few years on the mat and now I need to defend/protect my Sifu who got 4~5 times more experience than me and can wipe the floor with me anytime he chooses to do so.
:rolleyes:

Most of the times those guys aren't even the really good students at the kwoon.

[Fred Sanford]

knowing what I know right now, there is absolutely no way that I would go learn shaolin-do. There might be some worthwhile stuff to learn at the shaolin-do schools. However it's history seems highly suspect and the online video footage of forms that I saw wasn't exactly impressive.

I can understand why the SD peeps are getting mad. Hey, if I spent a decade or two learning something then was faced with the possibility that I was sold a lie it might be hard to swallow. So you have denial, anger, etc, etc.

Judo is the real street lethal :D

[Serpent]

No, no, no. Tae-kwon-do is the real street lethal.

[rubthebuddha]

fear my tae-bo, beyotch. :mad:

[PHILBERT]

Royce would choke your Tae-Bo out.

[NorthernMantis]

Well bagua,xing yi, ba ji, hua fist were all developed out of shaolin and come from different religious backgrounds other than shao lin but shao lin do claims they all come from shaolin and are taught in it. Umm just letting you know by the way.