Attn; Heming - san shou?

[mantis boxer]

You mention that " we train many styles including san shou" San Shou is not a style of fighting. The san shou you see today (Cung Le ) is not traditional san shou. That is kickboxing. San Shou techniques are in all style of kung fu. If you can use your techniques, blocks, etc in a fight or sparring situation, then THAT's san shou. Every san shou match you see today is kickboxing. You don't need to learn kung fu to do that. Just join a kickboxing school.

[laughing tiger]

Mantis, I think Heming means they train that way :-)

[lkfmdc]

YOu are both correct and wrong at the same time. There is not a so called traditional system called san shou and ALL TCMA systems can do san shou. HOWVER, the Chinese military took the idea of san shou and created a san shou program using traditional techniques to train its personnel. There are a very few people who do this original san shou program, with its unique philosophy and techniques. For the most part, Cung Le is a fighter who fights under San Shou rules. He has a wrestling TKD and Muay Thai background. BUT he has trained with the Chinese and knows MANY of the "san shou skills" as well.

[Heming]

Dear friends

the definition of "San" in Chinese is "parted", "shou" means " movement"
. the name to be called "Sanshou", is because it is created by those people who love
to take the most effective parts from different Chinese traditional styles and put them
together, there are less than 15 main movements in Sanshou, but all of them are powerful
enough to kill in one movement...that's the principle of Sanshou...also, some of the movements
are developed from Shaolin style, so no wonder disciples of martial monks will practise it as well...

actually in my viewpoint, Sanshou is the fast food which can be learnt in a short time( min. 3 months you can learn all the movements, but if you wish to make it powerful, still it will takes you 1 more years.), but
traditional forms will be more powerful than Sanshou if you learn it well, which will takes you years...

------------------
Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

[lkfmdc]

For a guy who claims to be in China at the Shaolin temple, you can't seem to read the most basic of characters. The SHOU in SAN SHOU is HAND. Every kid in China can read that character! And the San means to disperse, scatter, free, etc. Thus "free hand"

Is it fun to pay top dollar for standardized wushu forms?

[lkfmdc]

<img src=http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/images/sanshou.GIF>

Here are the characters for San Shou, look up what they mean for yourself

[mantis boxer]

Heming,

I don't mean to be rude but I think that's total nonsense. San Shou is pronounced San Da in Cantonese. In Cantonese it means free sparr. Cantonese, mandarin, as well as all dialects of Chinese use the same characters. San Shou is not a fast food martial art. It is in every style. If you can fight using basic blocks and strikes, then you might be fighting san shou. If you fight like a kickboxer, that's not san shou. Here's a simple test, if you are a good san shou fighter you are able to hold back and block everythign coming your way. If some wild man comes at you with punches, uppercuts, hooks etc... can you stand there and block everything? If you can do that then you might be qualified to start calling yourself a San Shou fighter.

[mantis boxer]

One exception to that. White Crane fighters don't use blocks. They tend to crack and the elbows , funny bones, or pressure point areas. There's no such thing as a block in white crane and I think thats' very impressive.

[DragonzRage]

Doesn't the term san shou means "free hand"? I'm a Chinese American with minimal knowledge in the language but even I know enough to identify a phrase that is so basic.

[mantis boxer]

Yes it does mean "free hand" if you translate it literally. In Chinese you cannot translate everything word for word. A few words put together means something. If I were to call you bad name in cantonese " Say chan" that literally translates to "Dead orange." But it really means " You as5hole." Anyways, there you go.

[MoQ]

Aren't y'all bein just abit petty? Can Heming say one dang thing without someone jumpin on a single misplaced vowel, or something? Can't he just relay stuff he's being taught? Seriously, what a bunch of ill-mannered know-it-alls! I just can't figure out why he bothers...

[word]

He bothers because he is a true shaolin monk. He is humble and respectful. He follows the tao and meditates everyday. hahaa

[MoQ]

He's not a monk, but a secular disciple and he does seem to be the rest you listed...Jeez word, jealous much?

[DragonzRage]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heming:
Dear friends

the definition of "San" in Chinese is "parted", "shou" means " movement"
[/quote]

I am not being too nit picky. Up to this point i had no trouble at all believing that Heming is a Chinese Shaolin Temple disciple (not that being a Shaolin disciple today means jack in my opinion). But as a person of Chinese heritage I simply find it very curious that a native Chinese person would literally translate such a straightforward and basic phrase so incorrectly. I speak and understand Mandarin Chinese fluently. I am well aware of the multiple meanings and translations many Chinese phrases have. But I'm sorry, the "shou" in "San Shou" cannot be translated as "movement". If you are not reasonably knowledgeable in Chinese language I do not feel that you should comment on this.

respectfully,

~Max

[lkfmdc]

When horse hockey is horse hockey, call it as such...

[chung2]

What's in a name...? As long as Heming's description about sanshou is correct, does it really matter how it is literally translated?

[JWTAYLOR]

Because he's supposed to be a Chinese "Shaolin Secular Diciple". And not speaking the language really puts doubt on his Chineseness.

JWT

[chung2]

Maybe he preferred to translate it more freely with "free movement" because when you translate it too litterally with "free hand", it is not directly understandable for outsiders..
But anyway, this thread is becoming more like a "My-Chinese-is-better-than-your-Chinese-contest" don't you think...?

[laughing tiger]

I only know Heming from his posts, here. If anyone has trouble believing he is chinese, at Shaolin, a deciple of Shi Heng Jun...the answer is just one phone call away.... (I wonder if anyone would actually call)

[laughing tiger]

and...it has been posted numberous times....he is NOT a monk..... r e a d the posts, please. Thanx

[DragonzRage]

Wo da zhong wen be nee da hao!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Heming]

how come here comes a word game?
I have my understanding and personally I think my understanding is deeper since I studied ancient Chinese for 4 years in China...
and my master Shi Heng Jun agree with my definition with Shan Shou...he said Shan shou created in Song Dynasty, National Hero Yue Fei has his own style called "Yue's Shanshou".


if you want the dictionary definition:
San:come loose dispel disperse disseminate fall apart give out scatter
Shou:a bunch of fives fist hand manus mauley pud


what meaning can you find from dictionary?


Heming, Shaolin Temple

------------------
Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

[lkfmdc]

YAWN... I have a master's in East Asian Studies and also studied Chinese. SHOU means hand, pure and simple. Don't care what your government appointed so called monk says.

[mantis boxer]

Shou or Sau is hand. Look at the wing chun movements, PAK SAU, BONG SAU, CHI SAO. There's a good one. Chi Sao is sticky hand!! No one ever called it sticky five family fist or whatever. HINT< HAND=sau. (cantonese) In mandarin it's (whatever CHI is) ____ and Shou.

jeez haha I wouldn't expect anything less if I said I was training at Shaolin. Its kind of funny though that everyone jumps on Heming first chance they get. You could just question his answers instead of attacking them. I hope you control your fists better than your words.

I don't know Chinese myself, but half of the English language is made up of words with double meanings. So yeah, this might not be relevant, but the most obvious meaning isn't always what's meant.

Movement is supposed to come from the character hand?


HUH?


I haven't studied ancient chinese, but I do know mandarin, and I'm not seeing it. Even looking really really closely at the characters.

[DragonzRage]

I try to hold myself respectfully as much as I can. But I'm sorry, I will not turn a blind eye to a faker just out of common courtesy. If you are not being truthful then why do you deserve tolerance?

[lkfmdc]

By the way "movement" is YUN DONG.. Not even CLOSE to SAN SHOU...

[denali]

sheeshhh....

even the english word "hand" can be used in a number of different ways.

i broke my hand.

hand it over.

that handyman is sure handy.

if every word only had one way of using it, there would be a whole lot more words.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[qy]

nice point Denali

[chung2]

Isn't this discussion a bit childish? Instead of dicussing about the subject San Shou you all want to show which translation is best, and how good your Chinese language is etc... So what? Does this mean that you really know what San Shou is, just because you can translate words literally?
At least Heming is the only one of this thread who has given a reasonable explanation of what San Shou is about, and that cannot be said for the rest of you, with your "excellent Chinese language..."

[This message has been edited by chung2 (edited 06-30-2000).]

[mantis boxer]

Nice point denali but this is not english ok. If you don't know Chinese dont post on this.

[MoQ]

Half of a translation is English...jeez
Why isn't Heming on here pointing out everyones crappy use of English?

This pettiness is just a smokescreen to hide childish jealousy and abject denial is just dripping down the pillars of THIS Forum...

[bean curd]

unless they are different characters than the ones ikfmdc has shown, gotta agree with whats been said, san sau is free sparring, the last character means only one thing hand.

personnaly don't care what hemming is or isn't, accuracy is important in all aspects of life, why not this, especially in the context of who is making the statement, and by what they are claiming.

maybe his referance is to a style interpretation of chi yin mun (nature boxing) by the greats' du xin wu and wan lai sheng.

sau is hand!!!!!


goi gin

[This message has been edited by bean curd (edited 06-30-2000).]

[lkfmdc]

The point is that our dear Shaolin disciple is one of those people who tries to make San Shou something mysterious and abstract. It is not. San Shou is two things;

1. In the general, it is the applications of the movements/techniques but NOT in a pre arranged way. It is sparring and real fighting. All TCMA systems practice san shou in this sense.

2. The current sport of San Shou originates from the Chinese military close quarters combat program which was begun in 1927. Finding not only what TCMA techniques worked best but also how to train people the most efficiently to fight with them they developed the San Shou program. The sport aspect was to actually develop the skills by using them all the time and learning to defend against a live, aggressive opponent.

There are a heck of a lot more techniques to San Shou than 15! Also, if you are not fighting it is very hard to take anything you say about San Shou seriously. It would be like a guy talking about swimming who has never been in the water.

[chung2]

Finally, we're really talking about the subject San Shou, well done!

[GinSueDog]

lkfmdc,
Hahaha...I totally agree, who is more qualified to speak about boxing Lennox Lewis or that guy down the street that watches it on espn and owns a pair of boxing shorts /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Now can you tell us what exactly is Monkey Kung Fu as I haven't gotten a straight answer yet, thanks.-ED

------------------
"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[lkfmdc]

REAL Monkey kung fu? You mean Dai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn? Well, that's a whole new thread but let's just say this for now.

Dai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn is what Sifu Chan Sau Chung formerly of Hong Kong does.

It sure aint what Paulie Zink does...

[denali]

Ok. I won't post here Mantis Boxer.

All I was saying was:

I think that learning and studying a language is much different than actually living in a culture which uses it constantly. By only studying the language, you don't pick up on slang/metaphors/whateverelse.

If I was to translate the english saying "it's a whole different ballgame" to chinese. I might look foolish. Maybe they would say "ballgame? what ballgame? we're not playing a ballgame?"

Languages have things called regionalisms.
Australia, the USA, Canada, and Britain all have different slangs/sayings that they use, although (this is important) they all speak the same language! You really can't translate everything in a language literally.

Although I don't speak Chinese, I think that this is a valid point. So sorry for posting after you told me not to, sir.

[bean curd]

ah yes, dai sheng pak kwa moon, chan shau chung, kau sei, gan duc hoi, now thats is a thread worthy of talking about. the five sets of hull kuen, very nice indeed.

[Heming]

This is Heming in Hong Kong, right now I am helping my master Shi Heng Jun doing a seminar in Hong Kong University of Science and Tech. , for the practical combatting Shaolin kung fu assosiation, our brotherhool kung fu org. in Hong Kong, later I will let you the details, tomorrow around 100 people will attend the seminar.

------------------
Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net