Deviation from Chi Sau/Sparring thread

[black and blue]

Early on in the thread there was a 'brief' exchange :)... which went...


quote:
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Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Chi-sao is meant to teach (among other things) that split second when arms come in contact with each other for the briefest of moments.
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EnterTheWhip: A very common misperception of chi sau.

quote:
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So you've trained for that brief moment. Great......now what about all the other "moments"?
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EnterTheWhip: Something HUGE is missing from your chi sau, if this is your mentality.



I remember reading an article by Emin B ages ago that also said something to the effect that 'WingTsun/Wing Chun's Chi Sau is for that split second in combat when the arms touch'. (Not a direct quote but the general thrust)

When I first read this I thought 'Yep, that makes sense', but the more I train the more I think this doesn't apply to what I do. EnterTheWhip got me thinking :eek: :)

When playing with what we call Feeding Techniques (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21786)

from the moment I bridge, Chi Sau's tactile sensitivity and concepts kicks in. Not just for that split second, but in everything else that happens afterwards. How I move, how I position my body and legs, how I aim to control my opponent/close down their angles etc, how I hit and cover at the same time, how I map my attacks and how they flow.

The initial contact lasts a split second, but the actual event itself may last 3,4,5 seconds or more (depending on how much resistance we're working with in our Feeding Techniques), and, I hope, my Chi Sau skills are engaged for the entire time. However long it lasts, I want to have contact the entire time... contact with whatever part of my body is necessary (no jokes, please). :)

Any thoughts?

Without really wanting to get into what sparring is or isn't, I'm interested to hear how "EnterTheWhip" describes his Chi Sau (what it is, what its for etc)... if you don't mind giving a little more detail that is.

Many thanks

[KenWingJitsu]

That quote not only was made by Sifu Emin, but also by Leun Ting as well when i asked him at a seminar.

So,....I think I'd rather stick to their knowledge and their version than what other version has been whipped up.............

[black and blue]

Who am I to argue with Leung Ting. :) (and I wouldn't want to argue with someone the size of Emin) :p

My Sifu, rather like yourself if I remember correctly, also does BJJ. One of the things he talks about is the use of Chi Sau on the ground, and the edge it has given him.

Would this not be an example, albeit in a very literal sense, of using 'full-body' Chi Sau for longer than the said 'split second of contact'?

[Phil Redmond]

black and blue wrote:

from the moment I bridge, Chi Sau's tactile sensitivity and concepts kicks in. Not just for that split second, but in everything else that happens afterwards. How I move, how I position my body and legs, how I aim to control my opponent/close down their angles etc, how I hit and cover at the same time, how I map my attacks and how they flow. The initial contact lasts a split second, but the actual event itself may last 3,4,5 seconds or more (depending on how much resistance we're working with in our Feeding Techniques), and, I hope, my Chi Sau skills are engaged for the entire time. However long it lasts, I want to have contact the entire time... contact with whatever part of my body is necessary (no jokes, please).


IMO this is a really good explaination of what chi sau training is for.
Phil

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by black and blue
I remember reading an article by Emin B ages ago that also said something to the effect that 'WingTsun/Wing Chun's Chi Sau is for that split second in combat when the arms touch'. This is again the common understanding of chi sau. It is BS.


When I first read this I thought 'Yep, that makes sense', It used to make sense to me too, but it's a useless concept to me now.



but the more I train the more I think this doesn't apply to what I do. Me too. It was sort of a concept I had accepted for that "split second" of my stunted progression. In order to progress I had to get out of that mentality.


EnterTheWhip got me thinking Oops. Sorry 'bout that.

[AndrewS]

The 'split second of contact' is a very nice way of describing and explaining chi sao to beginners. It's also a very nice way of explaining what goes on when you attack sifu Emin Boztepe.

Other things happen for people in between those skill levels.

I have seen and used chi sao to develop many things under sifu Emin. The quote is a simplification, subject to the liabilities of simplification.

Andrew

[EnterTheWhip]

Contact is a gift. It might be given to you, or you may have to simply take it. Chi sau is how you keep the gift, until enjoyment of it has been exhausted. If you lose it, or it gets stolen from you before enjoyment has been exhausted, then your chi sau needs work.

Upon contact, your chi sau should help you to progressively constrain your subject, while maintaining control. Each technique executed is not to set up your opponent for punches (anyone can do that), but further bind your subject to a higher constraint level, as long as the resistance is there. That level may simply be controlling of the subjects arms. Perhaps, controlling his full body is required. Maybe some limbs need to broken while doing that. Maybe he needs to be taken to the ground with your knee on his neck. Chi sau determines to what extent this needs to be taken, by measuring the threat. I.e. When there is no threat, the enjoyment of the gift has been exhausted.

[Ernie]

etw
first nice description of your interpitation of chi sau.
but one thig troubles me

this description sounds more like from a training perspective '' containing and controlling '' this is more for higher skill development,
this is not from a street fight mentality , were quick termination is the goal ?

also if you have the ability to drop him on the way to '' contact stage '' this would be more effecient would it not ?

i did like the ''gift '' concept . and i know we are from different perspectives , i like raw effecient street skills , and you search to progress in wing chun as a artistic expression.
but i thought i would pick your brain a bit .

another question would it not be better to be able to calmly flow from all and any position or range you might find yourself in , to be able to have this uninterruptable sensitivity , from eye sensitivity to hand and body , and emotional control in all these aspects ?
if so , and chi sau does introduce these seeds . which i know it does , how do you further expand upon these seeds to make them more universal

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
first nice description of your interpitation of chi sau. It's not an interpretation. That is what chi sau is for.


this description sounds more like from a training perspective '' containing and controlling '' this is more for higher skill development, this is not from a street fight mentality , where quick termination is the goal? LOL. Oh God...


also if you have the ability to drop him on the way to '' contact stage '' this would be more effecient would it not ?What is your interpretation of what I meant by drop, given the explanation of chi sau?


i know we are from different perspectives , i like raw effecient street skills , and you search to progress in wing chun as a artistic expression. I do Wing Chun. What do you do....?


would it not be better to be able to calmly flow from all and any position or range you might find yourself in , to be able to have this uninterruptable sensitivity , from eye sensitivity to hand and body , and emotional control in all these aspects ?How was that not understood from my post?


how do you further expand upon these seeds to make them more universal Universal to....?

[Ernie]

etw
I do Wing Chun. What do you do....?
i tried ask you honest questions , but it seems you are still in your little bubble
i do functional wing chun when it suits me , it would seem your are enslaved by it thus lacking the ability to be natural and free.
if your every action must be in some form or justified by your little rule book , then sadly you don't get wing chun at all , and are still living the dream of the man imitating the machine .
imitating the man.
i would have hoped that your vision was beyond the bubble , and tried to have a adult dialogue since you always seem to hide behind others words , '' like what so and so said is correct ''
but never ad your own ,
i honestly felt you were just some sad little beginer looking for a identitiy in wing chun .
but i still tried to give you the benifit of the doubt .
again i mis judged how truly narrow minded you are .
in fact come to think about you fear even useing your real name ,
i should have known by that you were just some clown hiding in the shadows trrying to find a reason or purpose to be more than what he is.
so until you share your name and true wing chun back ground , you and your words are but a ghost , with no substance or experience .
may you never meet a real fighter , or for that an honest person , you would be so lost .
now i can lol.........

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:

i do functional wing chun when it suits me , it would seem your are enslaved by it thus lacking the ability to be natural and free.
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Ernie:
Wing chun is a very functional system. One cannot merely infer from posts who is "enslaved" by wing chun and who isnt.

Also some folks mistakenly infer from posts who can "fight" or whatever and who cant.

[Ernie]

if ''wing chun'' becomes greater then the individual, then one is not free.
wing chun is simpy a system of training and developing skills , not a way of life , or some spiritual guide towards enlightenment .
or the only way to develop skills .
one won assumes he hasa the only way and all others are wrong one's mind has been enslaved .
there are many paths tp the same goal , if the goal is self improvement .
but then the path becomes your doctrine you are blinded by the path.
also i can tell when one lacks humility and has not learned to be humble , they have issues and have not acually eveoved as a martial artist and a person.
if one assumes to have the right to judge me then by the laws of cause and effect they in turn will be judge .
sorry if i snapped back at your little buddy , but that person seems to be a bit odd and bitter .
if you put ugly out there it will come back to you.

[PaulH]

Ernie, come join the crowd! The show must go on.

"Masquerade! Paper faces on Parade! Masquerade! Hide your face so the world will never find you!~ The Phantom of the Opera "

[Ernie]

your right paul
better to focus on positive enviroments were information is being shared , forgive me for crossing the line and getting caught up in the smoke screen:)

are you down to train tonight.

[yuanfen]

Ernie:sez..
if ''wing chun'' becomes greater then the individual, then one is not free.
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Some vacuous preaching and proclaiming Ernie.
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Ernie sez:
sorry if i snapped back at your little buddy
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????? not enough wing chun self control yet??

[EnterTheWhip]

Thank you for your many considerations.

[Ernie]

yuanfen
wing chun self control nah, wing chun is for training , self control comes from self . thus it was a lack of my self control and for that i apologize ,
as for preaching , well that is based on faith , i just stated facts .
but sadly this thread is way off course , which is what usually happens when personalities get involved .
to be 100% percent honest i was only originally interested in definitions of chi sau , and the levels it applies to . from a mechanical aspect , to a functional aspect .
there is chi sau when you are learning some thing new ,then there is chi sau when you are training the idea in a semi live enviroment , then there is taking the concept and developed skill and making it functional in a fight situation.
in chi sau we have plenty of time to play and develop out control ,position ,sensitivity and reflex, we can break down each aspect and train alone or combine concepts and basically grow .
but then there is a fight were you don't have a chi sau mind , were the intent is to terminate , with you ballistic tools ,
was just courios about peoples progression from training to fighting .
that was it but then pysco got all wierd , and as the old saying goes nothing spreads faster then a bad mood ''
and i got caught up in the sillyness .

[Ernie]

etw ,
i always try to be considerate.

[EnterTheWhip]

i do functional wing chun when it suits me What is functional wing chun?

[Ernie]

honest question ,
i simply ment i use what i need when i need it , i didn't mean it to be some new form of wing chun but from re reading the post i see how it looks that way:) ''
you know alot of stuff doesn't fly under pressure or for all body types , so i look for that which best suits my frame and character.
which is why i actually liked the description in your first post and wanted to did a little deeper ,
it was never ment to be a loaded question

[yuanfen]

wing chun self control nah, wing chun is for training , self control comes from self .(Ernie).
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Is the self a fixed enitity? Wing Chun provides the opportunity for self control- important in self defense as well... per kuit-
hit when you should- dont hit when you shouldnt.
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i simply ment i use what i need when i need it

((Sounds JKDish))

[KenWingJitsu]

Without really wanting to get into what sparring is or isn't, I'm interested to hear how "EnterTheWhip" describes his Chi Sau (what it is, what its for etc)... if you don't mind giving a little more detail that is. black and blue. they way this thread is gong, I would be willing t put up good money to say that you will not get an answer to this question. Call it a hunch ;)

Ernie....dont you find it amazing that those who whip themselves into disillusuionment find solace in pretty words and prases that have no substance (except if they want to be poets rather than cultivate a fighting ability). I would be wary of anyone who asks what "functional wing chun" is. I mean........come on lol.

[Ernie]

you know ken,
i just always try to keep a open mind and look for the good in people you never know when you might pick something up from even a different point of view .
it is odd how people like to group things , and then seperate themselves from the other groups .
like if you speak of being natural and free then you must but from this group, but if you speak structure then you must be from this group .
like it's some odd physical impossability to use freedom , interchangable structure , and still be natural.
but i guess what it would take to develop this would put you in another group all together.:)

we got to work out some time i had a blast training with andrew , and will continue to share and compare , we should try and find some time before the summer is gone .

[kj]

Ernie, you express a lot of maturity and thoughtfulness in your posts.

It is indeed counterproductive to try lumping people into "us" vs. "them" camps. We don't have to agree in all our conclusions in order to respect and demonstrate respect toward each other. Even the most reasonable people will disagree on some things. We are all unique and complicated. Perspectives and opinions also evolve. To be able to "listen" is to be able to learn and grow.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[PaulH]

Kathy,

You're the Lady!

"Everything that lives, Lives not alone, nor for itself. - William Blake"

Regards,

[ntc]

KJ:

I quote you: "To be able to "listen" is to be able to learn and grow."... ain't that the truth. At the same time, based on what is in these threads, such a simple concept and yet so difficult by so many to comprehend/master.

[PaulH]

NTC,

In my house I have two dogs. They are two little dogs, but they love to howl and growl violently whenever they see a new dog or cat approaching. To be sure, they don't really hate the intruders, but rather are very excited about the whole thing. You do understand that like their human master, they frankly are bored to death most of the time. People love a good fight either physically or verbally. Do you notice how the view counts jump rather dramatically every time a thread pick up a little heat? So the next time you see someone trade blows and barbs, just think affectionately as puppy fight. They love it and while we browbeat on their uncivilized behaviour, we too secretly are entertained on their unfolding drama.

Regards,

[Ernie]

o.k. but i'm not licking my balls for anyone:p

[KenWingJitsu]

lol!!!!!

[TenTigers]

Bottom line? I think y'all missed emin's point. "Chi-sau is for that split second when you make contact-"(or whatever) does not imply that it lasts only a split second-it means that the moment contact is made the reaction, sensitivity, control, folow-ups, etc that are developed from chi-sau come into play. Period. Now stop fighting, kiss an make up.

[TjD]

the last time my sigung visited, he made a very good comment about chi sau. paraphrasing:

during chi sau, at any time either hand can jut, fook, tan, lap, strike, etc effectively.

while i don't quite have that level of skill, i can see the truth in it.


i'm with ETW here. getting a good strike off is the easy part. to really test your knowledge of wing chun and your body mechanics, as well as your knowledge of your partner's body, learning to control is the way to go. controlling/constraining, ie total domination of your opponent, is a higher level of chi sau than just going to get those hits in.

to Ernie: how is immediately taking control of your opponent in a fight situation not functional or not the most efficient way of dealing with them? this gives much more opportunties than just striking (although this is probably involved).

think about a multiple attacker situation, you can:
A. knock the guy out
B. control the guy (mabye knocking him out in the process), getting him between you and your other attacker, and/or toss him into your other attacker.

if you can control (and chi sau teaches this), you're in a much better situation and more efficiently using your body and your attacker.

[burnsypoo]

seeking to control his balance while keeping control of your own = good times.

Whatever 'control' means anyways.

[AndrewS]

Control, hits, etc. . .

hits aren't a form of control?

Control shouldn't be what occurs in the first split second of contact?

Control shouldn't (ideally) be constant?

If you're truly slick, the time required for control won't be short?

*sigh*

Ernie-

"The point is to make yourself free", "Eventually one becomes formless and everything is inside"- Emin B.

I guess that puts me in one group, eh?

Of course if I was wearing silk pajamas in an atrocious color scheme and said 'I know my opponent but he doesn't know me' with the relevant pages from some Yang family translation, I'd go in the other group.

Personally, I think the guys who earned their bones and made that whole 'free' idea work in whatever system, wouldn't have had much patience with the people in the goofy suits writing bad poetry, but I'm a bloody-minded pragmatist.

Later,

Andrew

[AndrewS]

Oh yeah Travis,

isn't being able to do whatever the h*ll you want true freedom?

Later,

Andrew

[TjD]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Control, hits, etc. . .

hits aren't a form of control?

Control shouldn't be what occurs in the first split second of contact?

Control shouldn't (ideally) be constant?

If you're truly slick, the time required for control won't be short?

*sigh*

Ernie-

"The point is to make yourself free", "Eventually one becomes formless and everything is inside"- Emin B.

I guess that puts me in one group, eh?

Of course if I was wearing silk pajamas in an atrocious color scheme and said 'I know my opponent but he doesn't know me' with the relevant pages from some Yang family translation, I'd go in the other group.

Personally, I think the guys who earned their bones and made that whole 'free' idea work in whatever system, wouldn't have had much patience with the people in the goofy suits writing bad poetry, but I'm a bloody-minded pragmatist.

Later,

Andrew


Originally posted by AndrewS
Oh yeah Travis,

isn't being able to do whatever the h*ll you want true freedom?

Later,

Andrew


if you read my posts, i didn't ever say hits weren't a form of control. they totally are, but they aren't the be all end all of control. and many times many tools control better than a hit.

i dont think anything i said in my post disagrees with what you've said. if you read my paraphrasing of my sigung, he was talking about the freedom wing chun gives us.

[AndrewS]

Travis,

I don't think we're disagreeing either. I think some people are kneejerk reactionaries to anything that vaguely sounds like a line from Bruce Lee. Even if you don't like the guy, some stuff is basic truth, and disagreeing with it is petty semantic quibbling.


I've had the, uh, *pleasure* of being controlled and pinned to the wall by chain punches to the throat, at full speed, used to jack my balance without hurting me. It was an illustration of the control one can have with strikes alone.

I've seen people paw a lot of air going for pak, jut, and a death grip lop without any semblance of control.

The first thing you need control of is yourself. . .

Andrew

[TjD]

Originally posted by AndrewS
I've seen people paw a lot of air going for pak, jut, and a death grip lop without any semblance of control.

The first thing you need control of is yourself. . .


most definately. but those people you talk of are playing at a very low level of chi sau. they're even forgetting my favorite kuen kuit!

receive what comes, escort what leaves; when there is an opening, rush in! :D

[ntc]

Paul:

I quote you: "They love it and while we browbeat on their uncivilized behaviour, we too secretly are entertained on their unfolding drama. "

- Good point.... from a reading perspective, definitely very interesting. But from a WC perspective, unless there is an open mind during discussions and people are good listeners, bickering and insults often/frequent result.

[PaulH]

NTC,

Thank you for your post. I come here mostly for fun and socializing/interacting with different people and ideas. My contribution to this forum is to insert no hold barred humorous or insightful commentaries here and there just to enliven things a little bit. As for nasty posts, I just think of them as part of normal cycle of human interaction and resolution of conflicts. Its fire too will gradually fade away into some delightful endings.

Regards,

[ntc]

Paul:

Glad to hear of your intentions. Mine are the same.... came in for the same reason... not into politics either, which, unfortunately is sooooo abundant in these threads.

[Ernie]

andrew
can i be free enough to pick up a table and smash it over some ones head in a fight if the oppertunity is there and control him that way, or is that to [[jkdish]]:)
per haps it would be better instead for me to not use the obvious advantage and just try a try and chain punch him then when he turns his body and covers his face continue to punch him till my arms get tired and his friends notice the level of violence i have created and answer back with a old school shoe job while i remain focused on the first guy.?
or better yet can i just give a quick explosive eye jab / groin kick/ or head but .
and bolt out before anyone catches , but **** it that would be to jkdish again cusre me for my freedom of thought .


just playing man i might have sat. afternoon open how you lookin

[AndrewS]

Hey Ernie,

I owe you an e-mail - work's been psycho lately. Many thanks for the kinds words. Saturday afternoon is open for me except for working out with my girlfriend, and a meeting at 5ish.

Bash someone over the head with a table? JKDish? No, it *must* be Latosa escrima. . . ;-)

Eye jab, groin kick, headbutt, and run? What are you thinking, man, push off the guy and drive him into the others, you're giving up a perfectly good starting block *and* stumbling block.

"Bad intentions, Mike, Bad intentions"- Tyson cornerman, back in the day.

Andrew

[Ernie]

ntc
to Ernie: how is immediately taking control of your opponent in a fight situation not functional or not the most efficient way of dealing with them? this gives much more opportunties than just striking (although this is probably involved).
i totally agree and don't get me wrong the main thing gary drills us on is control be it push / pull /breaking structure , going body to body and immobilizing the guy chokes sweeps and so on , i spend way more time on that than anything else but

it all comes off shell shocking the guy first you don't want to control a fresh aware enemy , but if you zap him with something , punch,eeye jab kick some form of pain , he will freeze up and give you that window of time you need to follow up , if you just want to tie him up cool if you want to break him cool .
but it's the ability to shell shock him that is needed to be developed '' to open the door''

now i'm energitic and atheletic , so i like to take it to the person first , i have not yet gained the wisdom of patience .
i like to play to much , but that's my personality , so i have to accept it thus i'm drawn more to certian aspects of wing chun then others .
if i were slower and less athletic i might be safer and more inclined to wait .
and as time catches up to me i'm sure i'll gravitiate in that direction , but for now as long as i got the ferrari i'll continue to use it till the wheels fall off:D

[Ernie]

andrew
Bad intentions
come on if i had real bad intentions after i head but him i would pull him in close and knaw on his face while i knee him in the balls and before i bury the elbow on the temple .
i was being nice and cultivating my control:)

call you on sat after i get done with morning training

[TjD]

Originally posted by Ernie
i totally agree and don't get me wrong the main thing gary drills us on is control be it push / pull /breaking structure , going body to body and immobilizing the guy chokes sweeps and so on , i spend way more time on that than anything else but

it all comes off shell shocking the guy first you don't want to control a fresh aware enemy , but if you zap him with something , punch,eeye jab kick some form of pain , he will freeze up and give you that window of time you need to follow up , if you just want to tie him up cool if you want to break him cool .
but it's the ability to shell shock him that is needed to be developed '' to open the door''


i totally agree here as well (it was my question not ntc's L:D ). knocking someone out is a definately good form of control, and that first initial shock definately helps (gets them tense so you can mess with them). all the things you describe are ways of gaining control/dominating your opponent.

as to chain punching, it can work, but in my experience there's always something i could do instead that would be more effective :)

[TjD]

but what i was saying in my previous post. in chi sau that initial shock is easy to get, hits are easy to get. being able to roll with it and take your opponent where you want them afterwards is the tricky part.


getting that first shock is a lot harder in a sparring type situation. people need to learn to bridge the gap too :D this is why i think sparring is of the utmost importance. once you have the chi sau down, and you can control your opponent once you get that shock, you still need to practice to actually get in there and get it off :D

[Ernie]

every thing works better when you have the luxuary of setting it up.
it like saying o.k. you just hold that pose while i load up so i can drop you . any time you instill pain , break balance they guys mind is instantly more concerned with saving himself and not hitting you this is a good thing.
but we don't always have that time to set something up next best thing is attack in a way that applies pressure and put's the guy in a defensive mood '' the stright blast ''
but this is seldom the true termination tool it just buys you time to insert a bigger gun.
a over commited chain punch will blind your ability to sense and it gets all emotional so it screwws with your own mind , like a one track mind , or tunnel vision perhaps that is way you feel the something better syndrome

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by TjD
people need to learn to bridge the gap too :D this is why i think sparring is of the utmost importance. once you have the chi sau down, and you can control your opponent once you get that shock, you still need to practice to actually get in there and get it off :D Wing Chun has drills/exercises that help you close the gap.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
but we don't always have that time to set something up next best thing is attack in a way that applies pressure and put's the guy in a defensive mood '' the stright blast ''
but this is seldom the true termination tool it just buys you time to insert a bigger gun. Buying time? Chi sau teaches how to control time and use it, not to buy it.

[TjD]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Wing Chun has drills/exercises that help you close the gap.

oh i know :D and they're **** good too, like all of wing chun

[Ernie]

etw
Buying time? Chi sau teaches how to control time and use it, not to buy it.
oh yeah i forgot in chi sau has all the answers in the real world plus the cure for cancer .

[KenWingJitsu]

LOL!