17th century Dutch Combat System

[Black Jack]

Some should enjoy this work.

This is the 1674 dutch original on-line copy of Nicolaes Patters unarmed all-infighting system. The engravings are beyond excellent and the close quarter combat methods often copyed in other works. 17th century western street grappling at its finest.

Good meat is good meat no matter who is the butcher. I can see movements similar to silat, dumog, hapkido, judo/ju jitsu, street savate.....what have you.

The work has defenses against punches, hair grabs, standup grappling, groundwork, knife attack.

Just Excellent stuff with great drawing of movement.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/jfgilles/escrime/bibliotheque/petter/index.html

If this does not work I will fix it.

[chen zhen]

ok, then fix it.;)
sounds good so far.

[Chang Style Novice]

That's a sweet link! I'm totally digging the engravings.

[norther practitioner]

Thats some cool stuff... nice find...:D

[chen zhen]

Good find. keep it coming.:)

[fa_jing]

Royce would choke Nicolas Petter.

:)

[BeiKongHui]

People who are intolorant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.

j/k ;) ;) ;)

[apoweyn]

As usual, Black Jack, you are the king of obscure Western martial arts information. Well done mate.


Stuart B.

[Stacey]

yes, thank you...however, this dutch system sucked. It really makes me appreciate the asian martial arts and the integrety of their systems.

[Black Jack]

The system is excellent. Go back to humping poodles sack licker.

[Xebsball]

Hey :mad:

No poodle humping while Xebby is around
sack licking is okay though, as long as it aint mine

[red5angel]

Go back to humping poodles sack licker.

funniest post I have read today!

nice engravings, good link, have to book mark that one.

[Tainan Mantis]

Black Jack,
Looks like a great book.
Any chance of a translation coming out?

[Stacey]

great system....for me to poop on.

poor angles, elbows away from the body, arm strength....maximum effort minimum effect.

Get a few drunked frat boys together and tell them to make up a system and they would do way better.

[Black Jack]

Stacey....if I wanted a real martial opinion I would beat it out of your grandma.

Now shut your piehole and go sit on the training potty for daddy. If you make a good boom-boom I will cart your legless sister into the bathroom on the new radio flyer wagon I bought her and she can baby wipe your ass and give you a M&M as a reward.

[apoweyn]

I vote we have a new forum specifically for Black Jack making fun of Stacey.

[Stacey]

I wasn't offering you anything, I was commenting on the interesting, but pathetic martial art you were trying to wow us with.

Now, what, if any are the benefits of applying an arm lock at arms length, with the elbows up? Besides the fact that it would only work on starving girls?

Blackjack, I understand you need to feel some sore of white pride thing, but seriously, European unarmed martial arts peaked with the Greeks. This stuff just sucks.

The most intersting picture was a picture of a guy pulling another man's hair from behind with another hand up his ass. This is not a move I had ever learned in kung fu, someone must have invented it durring an S&M session on a pirate ship.

[apoweyn]

Yeah, because there aren't any crap line drawings of kung fu and karate floating around.

[Stacey]

www.cyberkwoon.com.

the drawings are great, the techniques need about a 1,000 years of refinement.

Bruce Lee's drawings were crappy, but accurate. These took a lot of time and were engravings of some guy holding another guys arm like a baseball bat. No idea of proper leverage.

They had about 10 techniques. Woopty doo.

[apoweyn]

1) Kick around cyberkwoon and you'll find my name. I'm aware of its existence already, thanks.

2) Good drawings. Bad techniques. That's a vast improvement.

3) The value of Black Jack's link was (for me at least) largely because it's of historical interest. Not because the pictures are going to help me learn a super-secret Danish combat style. Doesn't make much sense to dismiss the link based on these line drawings.

Your post is just one more float in the Moron Day Parade.


Stuart B.

[Stacey]

No I agree to the historical interest. I find it facinating and am thankfull to blackjack for digging this stuff up. But seriously, its like Zulu metalwork...its good for them, but when you compare it to Roman bronzework, it sucks.

[Shaolin-Do]

Moron day parade?
Wheres that?

Nice engravings, some interesting techniques.
There was one picture that looked like some dude was putting his hand in the other dudes a ss, and the other dude looks really unhappy and disturbed.... :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Stacey
No I agree to the historical interest. I find it facinating and am thankfull to blackjack for digging this stuff up. But seriously, its like Zulu metalwork...its good for them, but when you compare it to Roman bronzework, it sucks.

And if someone discounted Zulu metalwork based solely on a couple of carvings of the Zulu blacksmith doing his thing, you'd buy that?

[Black Jack]

I know you are a trans-gender , chester they molster, colostomy bag but I will indulge you.

Saying something sucks by the engravings from a 17th century fighting manuel is borderline.....well....just troll ignorant.....trying to gauge motion and precise leverage from a 17th century fighting manuel is again ignorant.....the engravings are excellent and motions are old wrestling and street pugilism.....its not my problem you can not grasp what is in front of you.

I am not trying to wow anybody or sell a super secret dutch fighting system but showcase real western martial history. It may not be your cup of she-male tea because their are no little asian boys in it but that was not my aim. Also if you really think much of todays commerical asian martial arts are full of practical street refinement than you are a rube.

I don't consider myself a scholar but I do know more about western martial arts than you and your statement that they died with the greeks is full of crap to the extreme and not really worth my time in debating.

You are still about style, thats candyland ***** think, its about the man, take a system and strip it down to the simple core, all the good stuff floats to the top, the rest is either for tradition, culture, ego, or for the greenbacks.

[Stacey]

well, I halfway skimmed that and the jyst of it was that I can't tell anything based on drawings.

I can tell that the 7 stars aren't in alligment and either are the 6 harmonies. I can tell that they can't use their whole body.

You see BJ, whether your looking at a jujitsu manual, chi na, or modern military joint locks, there are simple ideas of body integration and leverage.

BJ, you want to not put yourself in a position to be easilly countered because your off balance, and well bj, this is often in the pictuers.

Now BJ, you've posted great stuff before in western martial arts and they adhere to the above mentioned princibles, this doesn't...thats all. I find it facinating, and at one time, this is what asian martial arts were. I am curious to know why the European arts came and went so easilly and didn't devlop very well over time.

[Black Jack]

Look we both know you get your kicks off this type of stuff. Making one statement and then going off in the other direction. Trying to test people for some unknown mirth. Even though I don't like you I do find it pretty funny on occassion. Even more funny that I tripped on it, hook, line and sinker.

Congrats:rolleyes:

[rogue]

How do you do it BJ, great stuff. We really have to find you a woman.:D

[Black Jack]

I got me a woman. Engaged last Christmas and been going steady for almost 11 years coming up this winter.

I can still bounce a quarter off her ass but when a quarter is thrown against my ass it now tends to sink a bit and then roll off.:D

[African Tiger]

Good find, Black Jack.

I just got back from Amsterdam last week. It's ironic that they had a self defense system back then, because now the people are not allowed to defend themselves from muggers, junkies, etc. You can't even own a gun PERIOD

My girfriend had to tell me time and time again not to stare down the junkies, and if they did attack, I can't chase them down and beat the snot out of them. Or else I'd go to jail before they would....

Quel horrible!

[Shaolin-Do]

Trouble for beating a junky?
What kind of crap is that?
As long as its a reasonable beating...
:)

[African Tiger]

You know, I'm reading this tet a' tet between Stacy and Black Jack - would you two love birds care to share my bowl so you can drop this animosity? For now I will rescind my ass, gas, or cash requirement, and you two can get high off me for free...

but no one from Shaolin Do is invited!:p

[Shaolin-Do]

Its ok
:)
I gots my own.
:D
and whattya know?
Its from... CALI!
Durban poison.... mmm...
bahahaha.
:)

[Tainan Mantis]

Blackjack,
I am very interested in a translation of this book.

I have been researching old books in Chinese that have never been translated into English.
There are no books on Chinese gung fu that match in quality what you posted- until the 1930's.

And even then the quality of art is not too high.

The oldest book in Chinese with empty hand applications is about 100 years after your Dutch book.
But, sadly the quality of drawing is too low and it is difficult to tell what is being done, even with the explanation.

The quality of Kung Fu manuals that show stick and spear fighting in Chinese was at a high level over 400 years ago.
But all drawings are solo and applications are explained in highly technical jargon.

So...
How about that translation?

[Black Jack]

African Tiger- Yea that does suck. It is the end result of a liberal society. The government is their to protect you so you don't have to protect yourself. Pure hogwash.

Tainan- I don't know of any translations of yet. On aspect about the western arts that I have noticed in relationship to their eastern cousins is that the western arts are big into codification and not just oral folklore.

Their are MANY western fighting codexs from early medieval times up through the renaissance and through the golden era. From longsword to falchion to rapier, from german dagger work to hachet play to english singlestick or french la canne, to bare-knucle boxing and french apache street fighting tactics to the westernized combat judo of the 40's and 50's.

The german Talhoffer manual from 1467 for example shows insturction in footwork and evasion, how to judge timing and distance in sword combat, how to enhance your cut and thrust, supplemental grappling, kicking, throwing, and weapon disarming, long sword, knife, pole-ax, sword and sheild.

The Codex Wallerstein shows longsword and falchion, long knife, and a large system of wrestling techniques as well as close range thrusting methods with the longsword. Those are just two of the medieval works. The renaissance works take it to a whole different level.

From what I remeber reading like many other european nations the danes had a native stickfighting system using a walking stick. The french and italian have la canne methods, the engilsh singlestick, quarterstaff and baritsu, the irish have a nasty faction fighting system based on the native walking cudgel, the canary islands, spain, trinadad, and portugal also have stick systems.

Lots of stuff out their.

[Tainan Mantis]

Black Jack,
Thanks for this info.
I will keep my eyes open for these books.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Stacey

The most intersting picture was a picture of a guy pulling another man's hair from behind with another hand up his ass. This is not a move I had ever learned in kung fu, someone must have invented it durring an S&M session on a pirate ship.

lol, I think.

My Dialup connection takes forever to load the pictures. Which one was this?

IronFist

[Mutant]

great website, very interesting thanks for the link.

the technique shown in chapter 1, figure 4 is very similar to a basic chin na lock i learned. the grab is about the same and i'm fairly certain that i can see the same application.... its strange but effective basic arm lock thats usually used in conjunction with another technique, but the core technique is practiced precisely as illustrated and can drop someone as shown if developed correctly...very cool to see such similarity in a 429 year old dutch engraving! but then again, they were dealing with the same human anatomy and problems.

i think some of you are just jealous of their clothes ;)

[SevenStar]

Not only is blackjack the king of little known martial arts, he's also the king of insults.

[SevenStar]

http://perso.club-internet.fr/jfgilles/escrime/bibliotheque/petter/images/15.jpg