Timeframe

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

Wow! I would have never placed the Zhaiyao in such a recent context. As LKY WHF Tanglang I would accept such an early date for our version of the set as many innovations were made as LKY brought in Qixing/ Meihua and Guanbang but to consider that all Zhaiyao were prehaps that new is quite surprising.

Does your timeframe hold for Meihua and Taiji Tanglang?

Great to hear from you,

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Sorry for butting in on tainan but.. what is "Qixing" and "GuangBang" ? Meihua is Plum Flower correct ? Also, what timeframe are you considering for Zhaiyao ? Can you place a year to it ?

thx,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Steve,
100 years is a polite estimate.
Since the first Zhai Yao is common among many diverse masters of differnt versions of PM that one is no doubt the oldest.

108 and Jiang Hsiangsan's one and only Zhai yao are about twice the length of other schools.
So their 2nd half is a different story, but the first half is somewhat similar.

I don't have any solid facts on timeframes, though others may,but a lot can be deduced from comparing what it is and where it came from and how other similar forms in the style play.
What facts I do have are either hard to prove to others and/or flammable.

On the brighter side.
Forms like Beng Bu and Luanjie are much older.
Even WHF admitted that Luo Guangyu called the form Luanjie and he felt the name was not good... Chaotically Connected.
So he changed it to Lanjie.
Did others follow his lead?
Su Yuzhang and my Shrfu both did.
They published books, articles and videos on it so no doubt there work has done a lot to cause people to think the correct term is lan and not luan.

But the old term Luan is clearly defined as a fighting concept in Ming Dynasty manuscript from Shaolin.
So I am busy continuing my work there.

[B.Tunks]

Tainan and all,

All of the Zhaiyao from all the branches in mainland China are very close in appearance and theory. I have not come across such great variance, maybe its a Hong Kong-Taiwan thing? Maybe these versions were lost. As usual we will never know for sureand can only come to an approximation.

If we really want to speak the truth about the ages of most of Tanglang's extant forms, we should aim for somewhere around the twentieth century (some of which coming from as late as the republic and anti-japanese war eras), despite what tradition leads us to believe. Hard evidence is certainly lacking. A lot of chinese martial 'history' is very dodgy!

[MantisifuFW]

Shifu Tunks,

Indeed our Yi Luo Zhaiyao shared several sections, though we have not compared the second or third essentials. (As Tainan has also said that the first routes of different Qixing branches were close to each other). The biggest difference was in stance and body dynamic, from which I learned a great deal as you will recall. I do not know about the other Zhaiyao and will have to wait for a time when we can compare.

Interesting that you mention that the Zhaiyao on the mainland are all quite similar. That there would be great variation outside the mainland does not surprise me at all. LKY made many innovations to the system, most certainly.

Ah, more reasons to get together and train!

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by ursa major
Sorry for butting in on tainan but.. what is "Qixing" and "GuangBang" ? Meihua is Plum Flower correct ? Also, what timeframe are you considering for Zhaiyao ? Can you place a year to it ?

thx,
UM.

UM,

Qixing is seven star, Meihua is plum flower and Guangbang (sp?) is flat board or shiny board and stands for a mixture of Chang Quan, Longfist and Fan Che, tumbling chariot.

These were the influences used by LKY in creating his version of Qixing, 7*. This was (because of the different influences in LKY Tanglang) why WHF changed the name of the system he taught to Bei Tanglang Quan or Northern Mantis Boxing.

Anyway hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

One observation that I have towards the 3 big forms (straightly TJPM speaking) is that they are openned from a frontal position not from the left side lead. It means these forms charge in forward till the end of the road and then turn. As I said before, I believe Bengbu came last and we can see that there are the frontal (CCK TCPM) and the side leads (7 Stars) openning versions. BTW, the Zhaiyao 1st opens with the right lead side.

Just a thought

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

108,
Of those 3 forms I have noticed some people open frontal, some open on the side.

Zhai Yao#1 I have seen frontal and side openings.

Also, the location where the form changes roads is sometimes different.
In the first Zhai Yao form this is the biggest difference among the several versions I have seen.

Also in Luanjie.
The place where they take a u-turn is different.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW


UM,

Qixing is seven star, Meihua is plum flower and Guangbang (sp?) is flat board or shiny board and stands for a mixture of Chang Quan, Longfist and Fan Che, tumbling chariot.

These were the influences used by LKY in creating his version of Qixing, 7*. This was (because of the different influences in LKY Tanglang) why WHF changed the name of the system he taught to Bei Tanglang Quan or Northern Mantis Boxing.

Anyway hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

That's very interesting. Why is it called flat board?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


That's very interesting. Why is it called flat board?

I read once that it was named so after the front breast plating of the Praying Mantis. Seemed like a reasonable explanation to me.

UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
... Qixing is seven star, Meihua is plum flower and Guangbang (sp?) is flat board or shiny board and stands for a mixture of Chang Quan, Longfist and Fan Che, tumbling chariot.

These were the influences used by LKY in creating his version of Qixing, 7*. This was (because of the different influences in LKY Tanglang) why WHF changed the name of the system he taught to Bei Tanglang Quan or Northern Mantis Boxing.

Anyway hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

Thx for the education. It seems that every time you answer one question for me I have 50 others ! I really enjoy reading about LGY, WHF and 7 Star lineage.

Have you ever heard of any of these forms:
- 'Small Form' and 'Big Form'
- 'The Little Wheels' and 'Big Wheels'
- 'Little Chariot' and 'Big Chariot'

If so is there any relationship to Fan Che (tumbling chariot) ? Curious as well what are the disctinctive characteristics of Fan Che ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by ursa major
Curious as well what are the disctinctive characteristics of Fan Che ?

To share a personal anecdote, I was practicing the first few steps of the dai fan che (big windmill) form at work the other day and a co-worker sarcastically asked "Is that supposed to be windmill form kungfu or something?". I grabbed him by the shoulders, smiled real big, and exclaimed "Actually... yes, it is!". Fan che has alot of spinning arm motion for power-generation most-often ending in hammer and hooking fists for striking. Many non-mantis practioner's from my kung fu school are familiar with fan che as the majoity have been caught by it in touching hands with mantis students and respect it's usefulness as a weapon in combat. Come to think of it, I think I've heard more praise for fan che from non-mantis practioners than actual mantis students... heh... Anyhoo, I'm rambling. I thought the anecdote might be, at the very least, minutely humorous, if not helpful in gaining an idea of fan che's more distinctive characteristics from my own personal standpoint. :D

Edit: As an off-topic, sidenote regarding this thread, you may also recognize guang bang being referred to as flat plate or shiny plate by many if flat board and shiny board don't ring any bells.

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


That's very interesting. Why is it called flat board?

To be honest, the shiny board translation is correct. I have heard it called flat board on occasion so I included it to keep from losing anyone who may not have heard the other. Hope I did not make it more complicated than it is... (I do that occasionally).

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by ursa major

Have you ever heard of any of these forms:
- 'Small Form' and 'Big Form'
- 'The Little Wheels' and 'Big Wheels'
- 'Little Chariot' and 'Big Chariot'

If so is there any relationship to Fan Che (tumbling chariot) ? Curious as well what are the disctinctive characteristics of Fan Che ?

thx in advance,
UM.

UM,
Indeed Siu Gui Sik (small frame) Dai Gui Sik (large frame) are sets taught in LKY Tanglang as are Siu Fan Che (small wheel, small turning water wheel, small tumbling chariot; they all refer to the same set) and Dai Fan Che, (big wheel, big turning water wheel, big tumbling chariot).

Fan Che's characteristics in Dai Fan Che is using the Fan Che Choi to break through an opponent's defenses and to finish him with the Hoc Fu Tao Sum, (Black Tiger Steals the Heart) movement. It has the greatest amount of Gong Ging, (Hard Energy) of any LKY Tanglang set. Siu Fan Che offers a variety of very fast, penetrating, clearing, stealing movements combined with overwelming full commitment finishing strikes.

Some, in recent years, believe that they know better than LKY and have "modernized" their Tanglang by deleting these sets form their curriculum. I believe that they do so to their own detriment. (But that's just my opinion).

Steve Cottrell

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
To be honest, the shiny board translation is correct. I have heard it called flat board on occasion so I included it to keep from losing anyone who may not have heard the other. Hope I did not make it more complicated than it is... (I do that occasionally).

I hope I didn't sound as if I was second-guessing the shiny board translation as improper. Indeed, what little of the chinese language I know, I have almost completely learned from you and my sihing. Your chinese is probably even better than my own unilingual american-english. ;) I mainly brought up the flat plate designation because I had seen such a translation in an out-of-date english publication on qixing tanlang. Thought the translation might click for some other bookworms that have similarly searched through only english texts for tanglang info due to a lack of cantonese or mandarin fluency. No disrespect was intended. Just wanted to clarify. I'll shut up now. :)

[ursa major]

Thx Mr.Binx and MantisifuFW.

For one reason or another I have not been able to pick up the Big and Small Wheels forms (yet). I had not seen them but suspected they use long arm windmill motions. Glad to hear it is in the system.

I am surprised to hear anyone would willingly 'delete' these sets from their curriculum.

Regards,
UM.

[ninjaboy]

hey gang....

i asked on another thread but didn't hear back....

does anyone know where LKY learned Mei Hua and Guang Ban? Obviously, that would mean there is quite a bit more to his lineage besides what 'giant Fan' had given him then, too, yes??

neil