Just HIT'EM already, for God's sake!!!!

[Royal Dragon]

Been thinking alot lately. In the past 18 month's - two years or so, I have been really working on structure, rooting and body mechaincs. Probably because I lost so much when I blew my back out. I know that we often spend uncountable amounts of time working on this stuff, but in all that work, and all that labor, does it really matter? I mean, wouldn't we be better off just working on hitting our opponent all that time? MMA guys don't do ANY stance work, but most of them can mop most of us up. They just hit, graple or whatever against real opponenets. Wile many of us are doing "footwork" drills for hours in the park, they are actually working skills with oponenets.

Last Summer, I spent literally HOURS doing drills in the air across a hot asphalt parking lot. Theses drills are very similar to the actuall self defence techniques used in that system, if not identical. Rather than doing all that, wouldn't just drilling the techniques with a partner be more effective training?? I mean, it's the same movement anyway, and partner drilling gives you the advantage of actually HITTING an opponent (Even if the power is pulled for safety), plus all the distancing, and spacial awareness needed to actually use the technique..............right?

So what's the point of doing countless hours of drills in the air, that are just like your techniques, in a class that has other people doing the same thing, when you can get more by pairing off, and working with a real person? Am I missing something, or is there some sort of benifit from stepping & punching the air for 2 hours before you pair up for the last hour??

I say just hit'em already for GOD'S sake!!!

Comments, thoughts anyone?

RD

[Merryprankster]

Well, Duh.

[Shaolin-Do]

I spar.




:)

[Laughing Cow]

RD.

What you are saying is quiet right.

At the same time can you get a partner as easily as that and always available and willing?

IME, there needs to be a balance between both and each student has to find that balance for himself.

Some things are better trained in solo practice and others in partner practice.

Cheers.

[Shaolin-Do]

Go find a bar.
Have a few drinks.
Have a few more drinks.
Find a fight.
Try your arm breaking techniques.
Or eye gouges.

Devastating pelvic chops?
knee kicks.
Try my magnificent style of the golden pinky.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, Duh.

MP, Thanks I feel better now. I can understand maybe 20 minutes of a footwork or other drills in the air, or maybe some techinique drills in the air for the same amount of time, to warm up maybe, but to go like 2 hours always seemed pointless to me. I can see if I'm alone, training by myself, but when there are other people in the class, it does not make sense to me.

I'm a big beliver of taking one skill, and working the stuffing out of it, I just question the logic of doing that alone, in the air when there are people right there you could do it on, and work it with.

[joedoe]

Solo practice gives you the opportunity to get the gross movement right. Partnered training allows you to fine tune it so that it works against an opponent.

[Royal Dragon]

Here's another one, when I was first learning, we used to do like 1000 kicks at a time in the air. My record actually, is 1800 in 40 minutes. We used to do this like 2-3 times a week. Now yes, it made me a great kicker, but after a wile, wouldn't it have been better to kick a bag? I mean, you'd get the same cardio benifits, along wiht the feel of actually hitting something, and the ability to learn to penatrate and all. So why do so many "So called" traditional schools kick in the air so much? What's the point?? Am I missing something?

I can see at first, till you can get your leg over your head, do 1000 or so, but after that?? Why go on solely in the air?

[Suntzu]

IMO… solo practice is important… for like 10 - 20 minutes… any longer is a waste of time… the rest of that time could be better spent doing other things… weight training… resistance training… 2 person drills… sparring… hanging out with friends…

[ewallace]

You probably won't see to many grapplers choking the air for two hours in a parking lot. It's just not very practical and they would look funny too.

[fidon]

Yeah, single hand techniques should be practised to improve the accuracy and correct movements however i think that in lesson time the instructor should have a look and go through your single hand techniques and then fix them up if need be. I agree that the rest of the time should be spent playing jongs with an partner at least, cause you can train all that other single hand stuff at home anyway. But as they say "Perfect practice makes perfect".

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I love my solo practice. I just think it's a waste if there's partners avaliable.

[Suntzu]

"Perfect practice makes perfect". depends on what you are practicing.... practicing 'perfect' technique for the most part will NOT translate in the midst of a confrontation... IMO ofcourse...

[Judge Pen]

Do any of you all practice "Two Man" (or woman if you prefer) sets? I find that they can be great to guage timing and distance especially if you have different people of size and reach to practice with.

[Nichiren]

No offence but you fight as you train. What are you going to do if a guy jumps you, start doing solo drills?

Is this a troll response or what ;-)

/Cheers

[Suntzu]

two man sets are great… depending on the drill… what I CANT STAND are the when people drill and try not to make contact… now first starting the drill you have to get the movements and its finer parts straight… but the purpose (IMO) of the drill is to condition a response... now after months of refining the movements... students need to start adding the stress of getting hit... some school i see are doing the same deill but call it an advanced drill because its faster or has more 'parts' to it... that kills me...

[Royal Dragon]

depends on what you are practicing.... practicing 'perfect' technique for the most part will NOT translate in the midst of a confrontation... IMO ofcourse...

Reply]
True, that's why I say you should practice hitting resisting opponenets.

No offence but you fight as you train. What are you going to do if a guy jumps you, start doing solo drills?

Reply]
Agreed, this is the point of my original post. you need to mix it up, both in prearranged drills, and free sparriing. I know most schools do this, but what's the deal with hours of drills in the air for long periods of time?? It's like the balance is backwards. I think the twoman work should be for hours, and the air drills for like 20 minutes tops. I can even see doing full forms over basic air drills for long periods of time, because they are often more intense, and you get great cardio to burn fat and thus chisle your abbs. There's something productive there. But with the air drills, usually they are the same thing as the techniques, or very similar. Since your doing the same motion anyway, why not do it with a partner?

I can see in special casses, like partner drills for throws might have been a bad idea when my back was blown out still, but otherwise?

[shaolinboxer]

I think kicking and punching in the air is worth while because it teaches you how to miss, which is pretty darn important. And it is fun to flow through movements.

Also, if you could hit, but have your mind free as if you were just punching the air...wouldn't that be something?

[SaMantis]

I agree that you should work with a partner ... practicing solo has many good points, but working techniques with someone else will teach you (a) how the tech should work (in slow, 2-person practice); (b) how the tech will probably work (in full-speed sparring); (c) any structural flaws that will affect your balance/speed/technique etc. in application.

Solo practice is good, but apps practice and sparring (at whatever level you/your sifu decides) balances it out & gives you a realistic picture of your progress.

Namely, if you were me, you'd end up on your ass a lot. At least, I do. :p

[Chang Style Novice]

I really miss two person practice. I'm sure I've lost bunch of steps by soloing.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, me too. In fact, I am teaching Kung Fu to one of my Taiji students, soley so I have someone to drill techniques with.

[Robinf]

Without practicing with a partner, all you're learning to do is dance. Break out the tu-tu's.

Heavy bag is good for working on power. You can kick/punch harder with an object there to stop you. Just hitting/kicking the air, you learn how to stop yourself.

That said, it is important to do solo training to work on combinations. In the air, your combos can flow freely.

That said, when practicing with a partner 2 things happen: 1) we hopefully go lighter than we do to the air or bag so we can both practice the next day; 2) partners don't move like the air so we often can't use combinations, and they don't stand as still as a bag so we can hit them repeatedly with the same technique in the same spot.

That said, it helps to take a few hits. This trains the "shock factor" out of getting hit, and trains you to keep going.

Looking forward to reading refutes.

[Suntzu]

2) partners don't move like the air so we often can't use combinations, that's all i disagree with...

[Royal Dragon]

Why?

[Suntzu]

combinations should be worked in a drill… it conditions the offensive partner to use more than one attack and conditions the defensive partner to defend a combo… for instance… lets say a lead hook, cross and rear leg roundhouse… just to keep it simple… the defender could catch the hook... slip or catch the cross and than check the kick... or whatever your style would answer that attack with... many schools i see are stuck on>>> reverse punch... block or some ish like that... does that make sense?...

[IronFist]

Good thread!

IronFist

[Shaolin-Do]

Free sparring with intended movements is what me and my friend do, to learn to incorporate certain techniques into a real fight. Pick a few moves, and chin na techs and spar with nothing but.

The air drills are good for speed and power, especially if done with weights on wrists and feet. I love wearing my ankle and hand weights and doing forms. Take them off to spar and it feels like your hands and feet are feathers.

Practicing with a friend and doing forms solo in the air are 2 ends to a nunchaku, with only one side you dont have anything really useful. (yes you could still club someone, but its a metaphor d@mnit) You need both to have efficiency.

[Suntzu]

Free sparring with intended movements is what me and my friend do, to learn to incorporate certain techniques into a real fight. Pick a few moves, and chin na techs and spar with nothing but. yeah... basically...but *I* would not use the word sparring for the simple fact that sparring=trying to beat the other guy/gal… DRILL is what I use b'cuz the focus is more on technique… timing… rather than winning…

The air drills are good for speed and power, i disagree...

especially if done with weights on wrists and feet. your joints will ove you later in life... altho I don't see anything wrong with doing solo exercise with weights in a slow controlled manner… but when I see people going all out w/weights… I wince…

[Christopher M]

IMHO...

Solo exercises are excellent for alot of things; learning martial technique isn't one of them.

Large classes of people throwing mock-strikes into the air for hours has alot more to do with the good-bad teching continuum than any traditional-modern or sport-selfdefense continuum (or anything of that sort).

This doesn't mean you throw out solo exercises. Alot of people believe there's more to martial arts (and I'm speaking on a purely "martial" level here) than martial techniques. Solo exercises are great for these sorts of things. If you lift weights or do cardio, you're allready putting this philosophy into practice implicitly.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
The air drills are good for speed and power, especially if done with weights on wrists and feet. I love wearing my ankle and hand weights and doing forms.

Think about the direction of force gravity is exerting on your body as a result of wearing those weights, and think about the corrosponding tension induced in your muscles to compensate. Are these vectors along the lines you want to train for the movements you are doing? If they're not, is training your body to be unnessesarily tense a goal of your training? Do you think that the resulting posture you'll make reflexive with this training is going to be ideal for these movements done without weights?

[rubthebuddha]

good thread, but did you have to start it at the same time when i added my regular solo practice back into my home workouts?

[taijiquan_student]

What I've found is that doing techniques in the air can be beneficial in terms of martial technique if you also regularly spar (IE, you won't be good if ALL you do is practice in the air). I find if I drill a technique at home it gets it in my brain and I find I can use it in sparring much better than if I hadn't done it in the air so many times. That said, I need to get a new heavy bag because my old one ripped out of the ceiling, and if I had a partner on call 24/7, I would be drilling those techs with him instead of in the air. Basically, at home I train shi.t solo, then in class I try shi.t out with a partner. It seems to work alright.

[Serpent]

A good construct for a training session, IMO, is to start with solo training, working through the mechanics and correct form of a technique, then progress onto bagwork to work those same techs with power and accuracy against resistance. One without the other is a half measure. Then you can try those techs out in sparring and two man drilling to make them work against an actual person. All three stages are essential to proper development in my mind.

[Serpent]

Also, if you're on your own and you want to practice, what are you gonna do? Just say, "F#@$ it" and go and have a beer in front of the tv, or work through your basics and forms solo and improve your techs?

Then get your ass on the ground and work your strength and conditioning with bodyweight exercises, cardio training, weight lifting, etc. ;)

[Royal Dragon]

If you are alone, yeah do the solo drills, but what I am asking about is WHY do Solo drills for 2 hours, when you are in a class full of people? If you have them, I say use them, and save the solo stuff for when you just can't stand sitting there with your other half and watching yet another episode of "Croc Hunter" and you really really need an excuse to get out in the yard and train.

[Black Jack]

Solo work IMO is very important for your training as well as partner play. Just more tools and you always don't have a partner outside of class.

Be it bag work, shadow boxing, weight lifting, specific conditioning, weapon flow drills or for that matter any other solo drills you can think of.