many martial arts are similar

[flaco]

wc is not the only art that uses trapping, sticky hands,etc, so i feel alot of these arts were formed on trial and error, wc is known for cutting out the fluff, and using simple attack and defend that work. x9ing i looks very similar to wc, but with more internal training, and the 12 animals in xing i are very applicable, the animal forms are only like one move repeated over and over, with some variations, and wc trapping looks like xing i 5 element applications, also, as stated on other thread, white crane is similar, and the first set of hung gar, looks al;ot like snt in some sections. i have ssen some real kyokoshinkai that has good trapping, and also destructions maybe superior to kali, also, in mande muda silat, many aspects of the cimunde hand drills look like wc trapping, so where do our arts really come from?
does it matter? what matters most, is realizing that no art has all the answers, and that most arts developed in a certain way because of environmental factors and other factors. in mande muda, we do harimau for ground work, its from sumatra where it rains often, pendekar suwanda said that because it is always raining and muddy, that standing fighting was very hard, so they perfected low to the ground fighting,etc. one old tkd master told me that they developed flying kicks, to knock enemy soldiers off their horses,etc, so we can see why some arts developed in some ways, xing i is one of the only arts proven on the battlefield in combat, time and again, it was used in batrtle, and especially their spear techniques, etc. bjj is proven in todays combat, and has purely developed for todays fighting, as has boxing and other arts. krabi krabong, the father of muey thai had many weapons and skills for reality fighting, etc. so my question is---------why has wc been known for a close quarter art, why was it developed for close quarters, and ,is it true that its a close quarter art, or have many people not been taught the outside range fighting of wc. i have seen many wc schools weak with entry skills and long range fighting.

[Ernie]

hey ,flaco
got the picture of gary ,hawkins and myself thank you.
now to your post ,
there reason there are similarities is simple.
two arms , two legs and two people haveing a confrontation will give birth to certain universal truths.

as my wing chun bretheren seem to think one of the things that seperate them from the rest is tan/bong/fook/ wu and sensitivity drills . but the filipino empty hands have the exact same hands as well as lop pak simaltainous action /center line and there own version of chi sau '' hu bud''
hell the only difference is the body structure since one is weapons based and the other not.

problem is people get to focused on the differences and loss sight of common ground were .
all wing chun control and immobilization concepts are found in dumog ,
all low line kicking in pananjakman
all boxing hands in panantukan
and so on anywere there has been constant struggle were man had to find and evolve empty hand skill and weapons skill there will be common factors.

[yuanfen]

Flaco sez:
so my question is---------why has wc been known for a close quarter art, why was it developed for close quarters, and ,is it true that its a close quarter art, or have many people not been taught the outside range fighting of wc. i have seen many wc schools weak with entry skills and long range fighting.
_____________________________________
"been known" and what is or can be are quite different things.
What one has seen is not necessarily the only unverse.

Wing chun develops the individual for self defense among other things. To a well prepared wing chun person- range is irrelevant-
one adjusts to whatever is there.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Ernie's post-
Chimpanzees and humans share many genetic characteristics
yet they are generally regarded as different species.
English has nouns, Muscogee has nouns, Sanskrit has nouns-
but they are generally unintelligible to speakers/users of each language.

Also re"hell the only difference is the body structure since one is weapons based and the other not."

Differences in body structure is saying a lot.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by flaco
why has wc been known for a close quarter art, because Hong Kong is so crowded.

Wing Chun is a short & long range art. If I trained more legs than hands, I could make it a kicking art.

[Ernie]

yuanfen

have you had exposure to these art's in a way that qualifies you to make such a statement.
that's what i mean people get caught up on the differences and don't see the how much in the scope of combat things are alike.
there is a very thine line betwen the one who wins and the one who gets dropped , in the end it is more the spirit of the man then the style .

[PaulH]

in the end it is more the spirit of the man then the style

Thank you Ernie. You have just touched on the Pauli's doctrine of the Man. Everything can be traced back to the mind, its various expressions, and its handy works."Fighting is from the mind"

Regards,

[yuanfen]

But Paul H- Wolfgang never met Master Man....who understood the mind with his hands.

Ernie- enough acquaintance with other arts to know that the following statement about same hands;

"as my wing chun bretheren seem to think one of the things that seperate them from the rest is tan/bong/fook/ wu and sensitivity drills . but the filipino empty hands have the exact same hands as well "

is not quite true. Ecclecticism requires great discrimination. Filipino arts' body shaping is usually quite different from wing chun.

Re Flaco(in passing- not a criticism)- hari mau originally has Indian influences as do many SE Asian arts...even pendekar is an indian term

[flaco]

ernie, i agree 100 percent, however, although a few of us here, know various arts, there are many post here about who taught who, and where, and what,etc, when all that matters, is if you win, or if your healthy, depending on your goal.
my intent was to get some good answers on why has wing chun people (for the most part) focused on close range fighting?and why has it mostly been called a close range art?

as far as the pendekar statement, we called suwanda (PAH) or some called him guru besar, but the more common name is pendekar, i was not familiar with it's indian origin, so thanks for the input.

as far as wc being close range, because hong kong is crowded, that is the most ridiculous statement i have heard yet, manhattan is crowded also. that comment is one of the things i have heard thru the years, and my friends from honk kong say it is a very false idea.many branches of wc use outside range fighting, for many years, before using close range, THE ENTRY TECHNIQUES are the most important piece. if your timing is not perfected, you will never get close successfully.

[Ernie]

flaco if all you have is rooted structure then you can't have long range skills as that would require the torso to twist and limb extension , more alive footwork and actual physical attributes ,
also wing chun tends to like to counter hit so it really doesn't spend much time on getting from here to ther but rather letting the person open the door first the you blast through.
wing chun likes to be compact.
to increase your range and ability to initiat a attack you must increase your physical ability to cover distance and that would devieate from wing chun theory and structure .

basicaly wing chun is lazy but effecient , why should i waste energy in getting to you when you will come to men and show me how ti hit you.
but if your like me and have energy to spare and natural physical ability drop them in long range , though this is a lot riskier

but in reality all your real balistic weapons are in close quarter [ eye jab,palm,punch,elbow,shoulder,head but,knee,stomp , sweeps and takedowns, chokes , and so on .
so it would seem logical to develop this range and tools.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
flaco if all you have is rooted structure then you can't have long range skills Not true.
as that would require the torso to twist and limb extensionYou can have a solid root while the torso and limbs twist. Chum Kiu trains this. Biu Jee trains this further.

more alive footwork and actual physical attributesWing Chun's footwork is very alive.


also wing chun tends to like to counter hit .Not true. Wing Chun is not a defensive art (unless you approach it as such). All of the techniques in Wing Chun work best as offensive techniques (when done properly).


so it really doesn't spend much time on getting from here to ther Not true. Perhaps the practitioner doesn't spend much time "getting from here to there". Wing Chun contains drills that train distance and closing the gap.


but rather letting the person open the door first the you blast through This is more of a personal approach, not a Wing Chun concept.

wing chun likes to be compact. True, but so do other martial arts.

to increase your range and ability to initiat a attack you must increase your physical ability to cover distance and that would devieate from wing chun theory and structure .As per my previous comment, Wing Chun does train to cover distance. Physical ability has to do with the practitioner's mentality, not Wing Chun.

basicaly wing chun is lazy but effecient But more efficient when not approached lazily.

but in reality all your real balistic weapons are in close quarter [ eye jab,palm,punch,elbow,shoulder,head but,knee,stomp , sweeps and takedowns, chokes , and so on .
so it would seem logical to develop this range and tools. Training your long range will help to refine your short range.

[Ernie]

etw
i agree with everthing you say about wing chun's possibilties , and that the system when looked at with a open mind gives you the seeds for all aspects of combat, since it's based off the human form,
but in my experience most '' not all '' i come across are trapped by it's early stages and can't break free and become natural .
now guys that i have run into that got 10 years plus seem to be alot smoother with it .
it seems that after the get the knife down the start to flow better , footwork ,timing and so on.
but these are just the ones i have seen , but probably over a few hundred between all the schools i have visited and semnars i have gone to.
so in general i see more that lack mobility and attack skills , then the ones that got it down . but that may be different for you

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
etw
i agree with everthing you say about wing chun's possibilties You keep saying that, but your posts indicate the complete opposite, as per above.

, and that the system when looked at with a open mindNot such an open mind is required. It's a matter of seeing what is there, in front of you. By the way, I've been criticized by you for not having an open mind, what are you saying now? That you don't have an open mind, and I do?


gives you the seeds for all aspects of combat, Seeds? It's a tad more than seeds, I would say.

[Ernie]

etw
since you have the super secret key to all that wing chun can is or ever will be .
yet offer no facts, drills, idea's , or original thought besides a wing chun smoke screen ,
it a waste of time to even consider you in any conversation , though i have tried out of curiosity.
but the fact is you give nothing beyond transparent and general statments
you can't even be considered a genuine wing chun practioner .
plus you seem to have a person vendeta against all that does not fit in your view .
this seems to be a person that is hiding behind a shadow of one liners and loaded insults ,
so basicly it's immpossible to have and oppinion on a ghost
best of luck with what ever it is you are doing .
if you should one day step out from the shadows with a name and actual facts and personal experience then perhaps a serious dialogue could take place but for now you remain the court jester

[EnterTheWhip]

As for conversing with me... pick a belief system, Ernie, before you point the finger. You keep flip flopping between saying ridiculous things about Wing Chun and agreeing with me and then going back to ridiculous notions that don't signify anything close to someone who would agree with all that I've posted. "yeah.... i believe that too...." doesn't cut it.

As for my posts... the little I've posted (which is a lot) is far more valuable that your many common misconceptions of Wing Chun.

[Ernie]

well hello there micheal
what have you ever said tha wasn't a quote from some one else or spoken as if your way is the only way ,
were have you ever been honest and shared personal experience ,
instead you kick the same old spew '' well wing chun has the answer '' blah blah blah yet you never give your version '' in detail '' of the answer
you simply recycle information and cut and paste others words .
at least i'm honest about my experiences
don't really care what you think about me cus all i care about are my skills and keeping the functional and improving them.
and i offer what my take is on things right wrong what ever , out of respect for the others that are offering information.
sorry did i use the word respect , something new for you perhaps .
if wing chun was so cut and dry as you seem to think it wouldn't be such a mystery to so many that train it so get off your jesters high horse with your little gay whip and contribute some thing more the sarcastic one liners .
until then court is in session and enter the jester is in full effect .
by the way that was the oppisite of respect just in case you cant tell
later casper

[EnterTheWhip]

There is a castle on a cloud
I like to go there in my sleep
Aren't any floors for me to sweep
Not in my castle on a cloud.

There is a room that's full of toys
There are a hundred boys and girls
Nobody shouts or talks too loud
Not in my castle on a cloud.

There is a lady all in white
Holds me and sings a lullaby
She's nice to see, and she's soft to touch
She says: 'Cosette I love you very much.'

I know a place where no one's lost
I know a place where no one cries
Crying at all is not allowed
Not in my castle on a cloud.

-Les Miserables


Ernie knows who he is. Not so evident from his posts. Can't seem to make up his mind on what he believes. Trying to keep an open mind.


He is too respectful to you Saying "respectful" things to be all "nice nice" does not make one a respectful person. Respect requires consistency, not crying with insults, because someone didn't respond in a way that he liked.


because he did not want to offend a potential brother. After all, you may very well be within the family I am certain our relationship goes no further than to be inhabitants of this planet.


Please do not abuse gracious hospitality and sincere gesture of friendship. Nothing sincere about Ernie. He just pretends to play nice so that he doesn't lose out.


It's unbecoming of you. And you know me from where...? I know who I am. I know what I know. There's no iffiness with me, just like Wing Chun.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by PaulH
Behavior is a mirror in which every one displays his own image. - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe (1749-1832) Great figure of German culture, embraced science, philosophy, music & literature. "Never trust the advice of a man in difficulties." Aesop


Small kindnesses, small courtesies, small considerations, habitually practiced in our social intercourse, give a greater charm to the character than the display of great talent and accomplishments. - Kelty "You cannot dream yourself into a character; you must hammer and forge yourself one." James A. Froude

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by PaulH
Michael,
I am tired quickly in pointless tic tac toe. Then don't start what you can't finish.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by PaulH
The difference between you and me is that I know I have my limits. That's right. I have none. Very perceptive...


Do I have to play with you this game? That depends on you.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by PaulH
Good. No game for now. I'll whip your wit on other more interesting topics. Looking forward to it! As long as they are challenging...

[foolinthedeck]

Mmm,
i'll play the game with enter the whip,
but i forgot what the question or the answer was....
... and the absinth isnt helping tonight.

i think enter the whip is cool. because he sounds like an idiot - but in the idea sense, these two words being connected in etymology.

[foolinthedeck]

ooo,
and i didnt read the mark twain quote, nice... i'll open my mouth though.

[PaulH]

For those who wonder why I deleted a bunch of my posts. I am just starting to learn and to exercise my WC executive power to terminate all things that are out of balance. They were fun but really tasteless. With malice toward none.

Regards,

[EnterTheWhip]

PaulH posted something about mirroring earlier.....?

[TenTigers]

bottom line-as I've said before...there are alot of Wing Chun schools out there that teach a passive, art. Ernie seems to think that all the entering and foward aggression are developments that come with advanced training. Bah! Humbug! Poppy****! If you train passive techniques at the start, you will develop and ingrain the habits, mind set, and reactions which will stay with you, hindering your progress. If you train aggressively, attack the attack, intercept their intention, jam, enter, attack, you will be learning Gung-Fu the way (IMHO) it was designed. Gung-Fu was not designed to teach the masses, i.e. dilitantes, housewives,wanabes,posers, sheltered kids-but fighters. period. And it should be approached as such. In a comercial school -I mean one that is open to the public-not meaning a McKwoon-you will have two kinds of students-the small inner circle of hard-core, hard-working students, and the rest-who are there to pay the rent. You teach everyone, equally-everyone has potential- but those few, you take on the side, and work them, work them, work them. -because they are the ones. If you don't know what I am talking about...guess what? You ain't the one. But you could become the one. -ok, that being said, I am in no way an expert, and this is just MY opinion, but this opinion is shared by many.

[Ernie]

ten tigers
Ernie seems to think that all the entering and foward aggression are developments that come with advanced training. Bah! Humbug! Poppy****
really that's news to me i have nevr said discussed forward pressure in respect to when it was taught , i have always assumed it was part of all wing chun,
now if you mean over commited , throwing your body in some ridciulas rush of un interruptable emotion hail marry , despreate means of attempting to make a bridge , well that is better left for football players and doesn't quite cultivate the balance i prefer but hey to each there own,
as for who wing chun was origanally made for honestly i don't give a rats a ss since it doesn't effect me and who i have to deal with different time and different part of the world , people lacked fighting skill in general back then and were alot smaller .
here is another one for you forward pressure is no more important as the ablility to move back when it's time if you only have one gear , when it doesn't work you will be to emotionally connected to that tool and mis other oppertunities , no one thing is any more important than any other it's all amtter of timming '' when '' you need to do it .
if some one applys over commited forward pressure just step out on a 45 kick his lead leg as it's coming down and pull him
'' accept what comes''

[EnterTheWhip]

I like your post. It's too bad it takes a Hung Gar guy to lesson us Wing Chunners.

[flaco]

i have to disagree a little, because many people need to be taught with little aggression in the beginning and more technical aspects slowly. saying that they will ingrain a passive habit is nonsense, because later when they have technique, and do some intense lop sau, chi sau, lat sau, etc, the aggression will easily come out.

why is snt a stationary form? to build structure, lines,technique, etc, especially the first section being taught very slowly, to develope the energy of the immovable elbow principle. sure, we can add sopme san sau technique for beginners, but just like driving a car, or riding a bike, you put a beginner on one, and tell them to go fast, the need to get comfortable slowwly with the skills required to drive, i feel its the same with wc. and how the art was really taught in the past, is all heresay,as is why it was created, etc

[whippinghand1]

All variations of speed should be trained (less fast than slow), but with the same intention and various energies, not emotions.

I don't think TenTigers was commenting on speed. Though he referred to aggressiveness, I don't think he was necessarily advocating it, seeing as even in Hung Gar aggressiveness is not taught. Or at least it shouldn't be. I think his point was simply to not be passive. But it shouldn't be aggressive either.

[Yung Apprentice]

I feel the luv among the wing chunners!!!!!!

[PaulH]

YA,

Now that you feel its surface, Go just a little deeper beneath the skin...

"Could we look into the hearts concealed from us, we should often pity where we hate, love where we think we can never forgive, and admire where we curl the lip with scorn and indignation. - unknown"

Regards,