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View Full Version : Knifefighter (or others): Kali?



Braden
10-11-2001, 07:19 PM
I've been getting unbearably obsessed with knifefighting recently, and looking to supplement my training some more. You seem to know the community well...

The Muay Thai/BJJ place here in town offers weekly sessions in Inosanto's Kali/Silat and Suwanda's Mande Muda Silat. I'm also about an hour away from Sled Dog's Pekiti Tirsia Kali.

I'm looking for an emphasis in close range, single knife standing work, though not so much grappling.

Pikiti Tirsia grabbed my attention first, mostly since it seems to fit the bill and I'm hoping to get accepted to grad school where Tricky Dog teaches. But with more info it's starting to look like a huge amount of techniques to memorize, whereas I learn alot more happily with techniques emerging spontaneously from flow drills, for example.

Dunno if you have any comments, but if you do, I'd like to hear them. ;)

Of course, anyone else who knows about this stuff too...

MonkeySlap Too
10-11-2001, 07:25 PM
Pekiti Tirsia rocks.
Inosanto is good too.
I personally, an not thrilled with Mande Muda, but it has some good stuff in it.
Silat Serak is excellent for knife work.

The Kali-Silat I lerarned was heavily influenced by Pikita-Tirsia, and the 'glimmer' of it I got gave me reason to think it would be an excellent choice.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Chris McKinley
10-11-2001, 08:38 PM
Braden, you suck! :p Would that we all had the terrible burden of having to 'choose' between such excellent options. All of the systems you mentioned are top shelf. Pick one and go. BTW, if you have any questions regarding the Filipino approach specifically, I and probably others would be happy to provide information. Just send a check or money order to the Chris McKinley Really Cool Knife Collection Fund.

Oh, and btw, for a good place to start on the web, try www.alliancemartialarts.com; (http://www.alliancemartialarts.com;) great site itself, and a helluva links page. Also, www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/5640/ (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/5640/) is a great hub for FMA information.

...(grumble, grumble).....GOOBER....I'm still jealous....

Celestial Amiboshi
10-11-2001, 09:15 PM
I did Pekiti Tirsia Kali for a little while until other obligations forced me to stop. The techniques build upon each other but are simple and easy to learn but proper execution is of course somewhat more difficult.

"So close to God, there is talk of a Holy Quadrant."

MaFuYee
10-11-2001, 09:22 PM
no matter which style of kali/escrima you study, forget about the fancy pantalones techniques. - they are just meant to ooh and ahh the student. - no one can pull off those techniques in real life.
k.i.s.s. - that's what works.

you don't see the dog bros doing 9 part disarms, where you take the guys kife, flip it in the air, give it back to him, and then stab him with it.

it's all about the basics.

- I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is, while you're in midair, you still hit those brakes! Hey, better try the emergency brake!

EARTH DRAGON
10-11-2001, 10:26 PM
maybe we will all get lucky and braden will get stabbed to death while training and no one will have to deal with his inferiority complex, cutting and pasting and inflated ego anymore! ha ha

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Watchman
10-11-2001, 10:29 PM
Now that was a comment befitting a mature adult. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

EARTH DRAGON
10-11-2001, 11:43 PM
what is this bradenville? he can kid about me all he wants but I kid back and get yelled at? talk about lighten up. What the goose and the gander are seperated by gender?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Knifefighter
10-11-2001, 11:54 PM
Earth Dragon:
Aren't you the one who posted about being respectful to others??? Nobody is saying you need to be respectful to anyone, but why post that hypocritical bullspit if you're just going to ignore it?

Braden:
Try them all. One thing I can tell yo u about the Dog Bros stuff is that you will get a hefty dose of reality training.

KC Elbows
10-11-2001, 11:56 PM
Kidding? Perhaps I'm not familiar with the definition of kidding that includes, hope you die so we don't have to deal with your inferiority complex. I'll have to try that:

Hope earth dragon becomes syphilitic and cannot have children so that future generations are spared.

Nope, still not funny. Hmm...perhaps I'm doing it wrong. God, I just have no sense of humor. :rolleyes:

DelicateSound
10-12-2001, 12:00 AM
I second KC

I also am lacking in the humor dept.
Sorry

He is the Grand Ultimate S h i t

Braden
10-12-2001, 12:07 AM
Hey guys, thanks for the comments.

I just stumbled upon another guy in my area who is a guro under Eddie Jafri in Silat, and an instructor in Pekiti Tirsia under Tom Bisio and Leo Gaje. Gonna check him out next week.

MonkeySlap - Man, I'm so jealous. You've always allready trained in all the styles I wanna check out. ;)

Chris - How's it going dude? I forgot you did Kali too. I should have asked about your impression as to how it melds with bagua, since you're probably reasonably familiar with the chinese methods I train. The emptyhand PK Kali I've seen looks like my understanding of bagua minus the coiling and internal foundation. I'm really looking for some more energy drills. I also wanna take up enough taiji to be able to study pushing hands.

If you think I'm spoiled now, wait until I move out to Vancouver. ;)

ED - You're confused. I have never kidded you. BTW, I've been stabbed and worse and I'm still around. Gonna take alot more than that to get rid of me. Sorry to disappoint.

Watchman
10-12-2001, 12:25 AM
Hey, if you move up to Vancouver you can always start some Wing Chun training. ;)

I've got a Sipak that teaches up there.

EARTH DRAGON
10-12-2001, 11:10 AM
I figured as much, just tryed to get lucky but I can tell you here to stay so if you cant beat um join um.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Watchman
10-12-2001, 07:14 PM
Huh? :confused:

Rolling Elbow
10-14-2001, 01:46 AM
A few quick questions..

What are you doing these days?
Are you being distracted from your bagua by Silat and knife fighting?
How come you are afraid to meet a ninja who is in your own back yard?
Why do you think Ottawa sucks soo bad for quality martial arts?

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

baji-fist
10-14-2001, 09:44 AM
Braden, if you can find a Kalis Illustrisimo school, try them out. Antonio Illustrisimo is the founder of the style and a very good fighter. He was one of the most feared fighters produced in the Philippines. While in the Philippines, I found that many people still hold his name very high and hold his system very high.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

Braden
10-15-2001, 02:07 AM
Guo - You did some arnis before kungfu, right? How do you find their methods compare?

RE - Hey man. I've actually been out of town for a couple months. None of this distracts me from bagua, which will always be my first and greatest martial love.

Chris McKinley
10-15-2001, 07:03 AM
Braden, just some observations about relating Bagua to blade fighting. The FMA concept of redirecting the blade onto another line of entry is greatly enhanced by Bagua's whole body movement and direction by the waist. The famous Bagua objective of 'rooting while in motion' and its equally famous footwork are tailor-made for lightning-fast changes in angle and for developing flow. If you ever get into FMA, the concept of abaniko, which is a kind of 360 degree flipping/whipping of the blade by the wrist, retains its speed but its power is multiplied severalfold by the use of neijia rooting and chan siu jing. Anyway, just teasing ya in hopes of getting you to try it out. :)

baji-fist
10-15-2001, 09:16 AM
I spent about two years learning Kali in the Villabrile-Largusa Tradition. I also had the opportunity to see other Filipino stylists back home in the Philippines. I enjoyed my experience very much learning Kali, but I do have to admit I am much happier learning the Chinese styles. Kali is a very effective art for combat. I think the only thing missing was the teachings on the different energies, like chan ssu jing and fa jing. After practicing Chinese Martial Arts, I am finding that I am able to issue fa jing to my baston. I remember working out with a friend who also trained in kali and he found my hits to be very heavy and told me to relax. The funny thing was I was relxed.

I also found that everything in the Filipino arts are also in Chinese Martial Arts. A lot of the foot work like the box stepping is similar to Xie Pei Qi's circle walking method in Bagua. There are a lot of similarities, but I feel that CMAs are much more complete. The emphasis on energy is much more advance in CMAs. If anything, CMAs especially the internal arts will surely enhance the Filipino styles.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

apoweyn
10-15-2001, 03:03 PM
I've never studied gung fu, but after several years in FMA, I'm inclined to agree that it gels nicely with what I've read and seen of gung fu. Particularly with what I understand of bagua.

I think that a lot of knifework will come relatively intuitively, given that it's the closest weapon to empty hand. We start with the stick, then the knife, then empty hand. So it's a process of reduction in a way. Not to say that knifefighting is simpler than stickfighting. Far from it. But the movements are smaller, tighter, and more precise. (At least, the margin of error is smaller.)

I don't know. I felt more comfortable with the knife. It's a hard thing to do well, but I do think it translates fairly readily from empty hand, or vice versa.


Stuart B.

p.s. KC Elbows, thanks for the much needed laugh. :)

MonkeySlap Too
10-15-2001, 07:17 PM
While Chan Su Jin and issueing poewer is a great treasure in CMA, often the methods do not apply directly to knife work, where the coiling can expose your 'bleeders'. It does not take much for a knife to inflict fatal damage, and some of the more sophisticated CMA methods actually end up posing risks that are dangerous in a bladed fight.

This does not mean that I am saying CMA does not have material / means to deal with the issue, but the FMA / some IMA material deals with blades more often and more thouroughly than any CMA I have seen.

Try it out. Give a marker to a friend, even an untrained one, and try and stop him from 'cutting' you in a vital spot.

Good luck.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Dark Knight
10-15-2001, 10:09 PM
Check out Scott Sonnons site. He has a nice combat knife video.

www.amerross.com (http://www.amerross.com)

thekuntawman
10-16-2001, 02:45 AM
i teach philippine martial arts in california. we also have long distance learning, and course for people who are already teachers. go to my website www.angelfire.com/co2/gatdula (http://www.angelfire.com/co2/gatdula)

some philippine martial art have similarity with chinese martial art. my art is called a "chinese origin" but the style is evolved so far away it doesnt look like it. but there is even some "philippine kung fu" styles, becuase of how chinese people came to the philippines so long ago. like the 5 ancestors style, its chinese root, but they have philippine way of doing things. we have a hung fut sifu in manila also, who is (at least in 1989) about 80 years old. he never even heard of tai yim, to let you know how long he been in the philippines, he even speaks tagalog and very little chinese. we have hung gar, bak mei. those are the only ones i seen but i am sure there is more.

makati in manila has a strong chinese community.