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Self-Thinking Follower
07-14-2000, 06:51 AM
Think Shaolin still has real monks, are buddhist so worldly? If your ready to stop fantasizing, read this article on msnbc!http://www.msnbc.com/news/430641.asp?cp1=1

Self-Thinking Follower
07-14-2000, 06:54 AM
http://www.msnbc.com/news/430641.asp

qy
07-14-2000, 07:59 AM
2 threads same topic?
Long live Shaolin!!!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Self-Thinking Follower
07-14-2000, 08:20 AM
Yes, long live Shaolin!, but which one?

MoQ
07-14-2000, 11:36 AM
"Shaolin" is just a symbol. Symbols STAND for something. If it means NOTHING to you, you must make up your own MA and call it "kung fu" to avoid looking silly.

The most ridiculous thing is to assume that the "Shaolin" destroyed in 1928 was "real"... But then again the West was in bed with the Chings against the Chinese anyway... So we have always funded BS in the East and now who's surprised about what???

Heming
07-14-2000, 09:49 PM
this time I am very serious!!!

This is Heming from Shaolin Temple,
I met Brook Larmer---the author of the linked article on the latest Newsweek last week in Hong Kong. And as he required, I also arranged a meeting for him with my master Shi Heng Jun when master was doing a seminar for Hong Kong Sci. & Tech. University. He is a very nice person and the 2nd day he even invited me for lunch and he asked many questions about Shaolin Temple and my masters... what I can't understand is...why the media only trying to dig out the dark side of a thing or a person to catch the attention of public? http://216.219.234.88/forum/roundtable/mad.gif

Newspaper will only report the news of a man bite a dog but not a dog bite a man...

that's what you guys waiting to read on such a big magazine?

Buddha bring peace back to Shaolin Temple...

I also wish Mr. Larmer will read this message I post here, and also, welcome to visit Shaolin Temple again, let me show you the bright side, if you interested, dear friend!


------------------
Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

Heming
07-14-2000, 10:04 PM
oh, cool, I didn't notice that my name" Zhu Heming" was also mentioned in the article...since when I became a salesman and dear Mr.Larmer, didn't you ever asked one of those half dozen foreign disciples that if I lured them to come or what?

and I can't remember that if you ever promised me that you will not publish my name and my master's name on your Newsweek...

Email me back please and I need explaination...my friend...also I wish to correct several mistakes made in your article personally...you made me so sad when I am reading your article /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Buddha bless Shaolin!

Heming from Shaolin Temple

Self-Thinking Follower
07-14-2000, 10:11 PM
SHAOLIN LIVES, BUT NOT AT SONGSHAN!

Heming
07-14-2000, 10:42 PM
self-thinking follower...

Shaolin lives, only from Songshan!!!
who are you and why you love to see Shaolin's reputation dying fast? I don't understand what is all your words for...

will you please explain?

Heming the defender

Self-Thinking Follower
07-14-2000, 10:57 PM
I am a practitioner of Shaolin fighting methods unblemished by government sport requirements or restrictions. Unconcerned with monetary gain for rebuilding temples to con dreaming fools like you. Your not native to China are you? Yet like all lackeys you defend something for your "MASTERS". Afro-americans, in the past, had a name for those who did that for their "MASTERS", it was an "UNCLE TOM". Now in China we have "UNCLE HEMING". Heming, why dont you go back to your country and read those "defender" comic books. Songshan is only a historical site! and Heming, YOUR NOT A MONK!, YOUR NOT A MONK, YOUR NOT A MONK! and yes you have stated this, now listen to your own words, YOU ARE NOT A MONK!

Heming
07-14-2000, 11:25 PM
wait dear self-thinking follower,
guess you still don't know who I am...

firstly, let me tell you that my dad is a Chinese, and my mum is also Chinese, and I was born in China, so do you still think I am not a Chinese?

if I want to make money, I will go to do business but not stay in songshan mountain and train myself in mud...what do you think?

and you also saying that Shaolin kung fu is blemished by government sport requirements or restrictions, do you really believe that?
do you think anybody can really change Shaolin kung fu as they want? I really wish that you can come to visit us and I do wish to let my master Shi Heng Jun to show you the real stuff but not those you watched from movies...or so called Chinese wushu show.

Yes, I am not a monk and I will never be a MONK, why should I discard my family away?
what I am doing in Shaolin Temple is to helping masters to rebuild the fame of Shaolin and also do my little effort to promote the treasure of we Chinese to the world...thanks for talking with me, before you make another comment, please learn more about Shaolin first, dear friend...

I also recommend you to visit Dr. Richards Site at: http://www.russbo.com




------------------
Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

Self-Thinking Follower
07-15-2000, 01:23 AM
Heming, you misguided soul, I will answer your questions in order.

Question #1 - I still have my doubts, but where in China did you grow up?

Question #2 - Shaolin Marketing is now very lucrative, also Shaolin fantasy and daydreaming are at their peak! Especially with the travel packages you guys offer!

Question #3 - DEFINATELY SO!

Question #4 - This has been done for ages, do you not believe in 18 Lohan and 5 animal fists of shaolin folklore? Were these not changes to shaolin kung fu? Perhaps you posted the wrong question, since shaolin even according to your own words in other threads has been open to oustside developments. Am I right? Did I misinterpret why western and even Korean and Japanese methods are now practiced at Shaolin?

Question #5 - Been there twenty years ago, as a TOURIST!, they were still reconstructing and there was'nt much to see.
Of course perhaps these monks were hidden, secretly practicing Taekwon-Do or reinventing the wheel. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Now of course you have hundreds of pseudo monks, lay followers and "Folk masters" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif all suspiciously dressed in monk garb, what gives? Trying to fool someone? Lets not even mention the circus like touring groups, now only led by an "official monk" but consisting of Lay and folk masters doing their best to look like real monks and fool who? We dont have to travel to Songshan to see this, do we?

Please give your master Shi Heng Jun's non- buddhist name and background, there are a lot of mainland chinese who really do have gung fu and unfortunately have been recruited to endorse this farce. Some are even dreaming of the fame. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Why not build your family fame and fortune instead of that of the governments shaolin tourist attraction? SHAOLIN IS ALREADY FAMOUS, you guys are making it infamous! ;( Many people are only familiar with the legends but after seeing you guys, they laugh and say shaolin is OVERATED!, wake up Heming, wake up!

Once again Heming, WAKE UP!

Self-Thinking Follower
07-15-2000, 01:45 AM
Oh, Heming I forgot to correct your assumption on me watching movies, I dont take any movies or documentaries for fact.
I do note when documentaries made by the chinese government contradict their current claims. Also I have seen the real shaolin, it exsists in the MANY TREASURES, of chinese gung fu preserved all over the world and it is far ahead of the shaolin wushu propagated at Songshan, IMHO!

Are there any practioners of shaolin derived Kung Fu out there?

Are you willing to have, what you do, called non-shaolin, by new squatters at Songshan? Its going to happen!

"The new generation of Shaolin are like the Borg of Star trek- they assimilate" You know what happens if you dont throw in with them, right? They force you into it "resistance is futile" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MoQ
07-15-2000, 03:07 AM
Heming's art is Shaolin because he studies at the Temple. MANY MA's are called "Shaolin" for none other than a mere selling point. Myriad styles have roots at the Temple, but pretty much everyone knows that the term "Shaolin" is applied to alot of faceless arts for no other reason than to call forth a fantasy image of the Temple where Heming studies. Why? Well, to attract people that don't know any better.

All you Shaolin-Do, Shaolin Kempo, Shaolin Kung Fu, Shaolin 5 Animals, Shaolin Chuan Fa, American Shaolin Kempo Karate, Shaolin this, Shaolin that, Shaolin whathaveyou people lay off Heming. If HE has no right to the name, who are YOU???????
IF your teacher is legit, you are a freakin' embarrassment...

The Shaolin Warriors of the past were NEVER good Buddhists.

Lost_Disciple
07-15-2000, 05:03 AM
Yo Heming,

My sifu (Jeff Hughes), my sigung (Ray Fogg), Steve Cotrell, Lily Lau, and many others will be over at Shaolin temple in about a month. I hope you can check them out, and let me know what you think of them and their performance.

Heming
07-15-2000, 06:25 AM
Dear Lost-Disciple,
Please ask them to gimme a call when they are here...they can reach me by phone number
0136-1266-8533 or 2749172 from Shaolin Temple, and I would like to show them around...wish them have a nice experience here, my friend.

Heming with regards

SifuAbel
07-15-2000, 06:48 AM
There is a phone at the temple? How odd.

Self-Thinking Follower
07-15-2000, 07:36 AM
MoQ, saying you are from shaolin, or saying that your kung fu comes from shaolin is definately okay, but saying that your kungfu is the REAL or UNCHANGED shaolin is a load of BS. Also not being a monk and dressing in monk garb is misleading and misrepresenting, I dont exclude the idiots here in the US that buy these outfits and shave their heads. You have posted before on my thread, did'nt you see that my problem is not where the kung fu comes from, its people trying to propagate a farce, fantasy. I know they're not monks! Now before you comment on those here, remember that my problem is with the RECENT trend started at songshan.

Also, I dont think any of my teachers are embarrassed at me. Especially since they encouraged me to be myself and to express my feelings honestly. You cant fault one for that. I dont fault Heming for not answering my questions or for being asleep, we all have our beliefs but here we can question each other about them, get it?

As for shaolin this and Shaolin that, I say your right but I also see sytems like: Hung Gar, Hung Fut, Fut Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Wu Mei, Lei Gar, Lau Gar, Choy Gar, Mok Gar, Lung Ying, Go Tzu, Pei Ho,Ying Jow, Fu Jow, Lan Shou, Hung Chuan, Lo Han, Pan Gar, Jook Lam, Lok Hop, Mei Hua,Pao Chui, and many others, derived from shaolin and standing on their own merits. Without the need to dress in monk attire or have a special address.

MoQ, the Shaolin of Songshan kung fu today is shaolin but the curriculum was only recently put together from preserved forms that NON MONKS PRACTICED!, Now called, "FOLK MASTERS". There is no such thing as an unbroken lineage of monks or a traditional standard system, preserved by monks. Is my belief clear now?

Chameleon
07-15-2000, 07:38 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MoQ:

Heming's art is Shaolin because he studies at the Temple.

Actually, I believe his school is near the temple. According to the article, "At a smaller school halfway up the mountain above Shaolin, Shi Hengjun..."

I don't think that makes it any less legitimate, but from everything I've read, the actual temple is more of a tourist attraction today than a martial arts training center.

MANY MA's are called "Shaolin" for none other than a mere selling point.

I think there is an important distinction that is being lost here. There is nothing wrong with using a term for marketing reasons, IMO, unless that term is used deceptively.

It would be deceptive to teach ju jitsu and call it "Shaolin". Simlarly, it would be deceptive to promise students the opportunity to live/study in the Shaolin Temple when in fact they would not be training in the temple.

But I don't really see a lot of deception going on here.

I prefer names like tai chi, praying mantis, etc., to describe the content of what is taught. But the reality is that content must be marketed in terms that prospective students understand.

Many CMA schools call themselves "kung fu" schools purely for marketing reasons. We all know that "kung fu" means mastery of time and effort, and not CMA. But since the term has improperly become synonymous with CMA, schools must market themselves as "kung fu" schools so that prospective students understand what kind of school it is.

I see the same thing with regards to "Shaolin". While it is really more of a place than a style, it has become synonymous with certain CMA styles. Styles that teach animal forms that originated or were refined by the temple are being completely honest, IMO, by calling themselves "Shaolin XXXXX" because they are trying to convey their content in terms that prospective students can understand.

If HE has no right to the name, who are YOU???????

I don't think that anyone here is saying that Heming has no right to the name. He clearly does, in my view.

I just don't agree with the notion that only Heming has the right to the name, and any other style that uses the name is somehow "faceless" or "illegitimate".

The Shaolin Temple is being used for commercial reasons all over the world, including in China. Heming and his master are clearly using the Shaolin Temple for commercial reasons.

And there is nothing wrong with this. In fact, it is the best way, IMO, to preserve the art, the spirit of the art, and the temple with which the art is associated.

I expect that Heming's school is one of the finest martial arts schools in the world, and that the dedication they require/demand is way beyond what you find in Western schools. There is nothing wrong with them wanting to make money so that they can buy modern toilets, etc.

But there is also nothing wrong with Western schools wanting to attract students, and using terms like "kung fu" and "Shaolin" to describe their content.

Gargoyle again
07-15-2000, 08:09 AM
quote: "There is a phone at the temple? How odd."

There seems to be this peculiar desire among people that to be "legitimate" shaolin, one must also discard the modern and live the life of 300 years ago: no technology, no convenience, no money, toiling in fields, living as an anachronism. To do this would bring LESS legitamacy in my eyes, much like a renaissance performer or civil war renactor aren't "real", merely imitators of the past.

When I see Shaolin monks with cell phones, cars, marketing themselves, I think instead "good for them". I would be very disappointed if adapting to modern ways was forbidden. There is nothing in Chan Buddhism that says you cant wear stylish sunglasses. Come on guys, these are not the Amish here. Quit mysticizing them and trying to hold them aloft as something they aren't.

Granted, the lineage and authenticity of the kung fu itself is arguable at times, but there is also not just a single school or style there, but dozens. I think it would be hasty to judge all of the kung fu of the entire region on the examples of a few travelling stage performers.

3BladesFighter
07-15-2000, 11:11 PM
The Shaolin are real. I was there, you stupid fool.

------------------
Fullness is achieved only when one has truly earned it

MoQ
07-15-2000, 11:41 PM
The resentment and jealousy run very high in these threads. We desire what they have, but can never really own it. We can't even take responsibility for the resultant discomfort.

"Darkness runs in fear of what it can never be."

Self-Thinking Follower
07-16-2000, 12:03 AM
No jealousy, some resentment, yes, foolishness only in trying to get facts on the contrary, which no one has been able to present, not even the lay. Last you must be, cause you got no facts to offer this discussion, perhaps its best to leave this discussion now, before the highly educated leaders of Wu-de (Martial virtue) begin to troll. Honestly, I thought someone out there may of had dates, real names or other pertinent facts to prove me wrong, but I see its now back to the neanderthal level, where people switch from intellectual to physical. Before I entertain keyboard death threats, I would rather move to another board where people really practice what they preach (Wu-de) as opposed to the trolls who challenge behind usernames and prove involvement online for real discussion futile, especially when they have NOTHING to offer.
For those who discussed the subject with me, thank you for the patience and time, continued success in your martial endeavors.

SELF-THINKING

qy
07-16-2000, 01:22 AM
STF,
umm, You were hoping that folks would not have their own opinions? You were hoping that unlike you folks would post their full names and addresses? The only one who DOES that is Heming.
I trust your feelings and the other folks here about the Shaolin Temple more then I do some guy at NBC.
You know that our media is after flashy titles right? Thats why you started this thread under a diffrent name to draw attention right? so you know how this works. Look, your thread has many more responses at this point then the original thread under a less catchy name.
You want dates to prove that Shaolin is real? Why would Shaolin worry about proving to you it's worth?
What risk do you run if the name of Shaolin is not tarnished?
Why dont you prove to us that Heming does not exsist? or his teacher? Provide data to prove that Shaolin is some sort of a hologram. I stated what I think in the original thread.

SifuAbel
07-17-2000, 01:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gargoyle again:
quote: "There is a phone at the temple? How odd."

There seems to be this peculiar desire among people that to be "legitimate" shaolin, one must also discard the modern and live the life of 300 years ago: no technology, no convenience, no money, toiling in fields, living as an anachronism. To do this would bring LESS legitamacy in my eyes, much like a renaissance performer or civil war renactor aren't "real", merely imitators of the past.
[/quote]

Modern life? Technology? Haveing Money? Wearing Gucci sunglasses? Are you decribing the the life of a monk or the characters on Miami Vice? They are MONKS!! They are supposed to relinquish all worldy possesions and live a life of austerities and prayer. It doesn't matter if they are shaolin monks or franciscan monks, the deal is the same. Heck, why don't just send them to Vegas. With enough booze and chicks I'm sure any semblance of buddhism can be thoroughly wiped out.
" these are not the Amish here. Quit mysticizing them and trying to hold them aloft as something they aren't."

On the contrary they ARE the Amish, or at least they should be. Quite right, we hold them aloft as something they are not. Most of these kids they pass off as monks today don't have the foggiest notion of what their own dharma is all about. This whole "having possesions" issue shows that some of you don't know either.

Heming
07-17-2000, 04:41 AM
Why monks can't have their own life style but should just follow YOUR imagination to live? we are not live for YOU, and by the way, how much you know about Chinese monks?

Heheheheheheheheheheheheh......

MoQ
07-17-2000, 06:34 AM
FYI, Franciscan monks have gold rings, gold chalices, the very best printing equipment. Of course, they pray OPENLY with the ceramic stuff, they got an IMAGE, you know...

You ARE right, they aren't paid nearly as much as some other orders, but the Catholic Church is MADE of $$$$ what the what is your POINT?
Say, you think the POPE has a cell phone? Access to the Internet?

Brad
07-17-2000, 06:57 AM
Heming,

What are the vows that a monk takes?

Gojira
07-17-2000, 07:02 AM
And why would someone who followed the teachings of Buddha even practice sensationalism? Wouldn't there be someline to be drawn?

------------------
If you have nothing to do, don't do it here!

SifuAbel
07-17-2000, 07:20 AM
The Pope is as far from being a monk as you are from the moon. Heming needs another bowl of granola. He's too busy patting himself on the back. You sound like you just took a picture with Elvis; So does that make you Elvis' cousin or something.

Gojira
07-17-2000, 07:31 AM
LOL, nice reply SIFU Abel. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But back to the point, Heming you seem to preach like a monk, yet you claim not to be one.
Are you a practicing Buddhist or is that out of convinence?
Not a flame but a legit question.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

------------------
If you have nothing to do, don't do it here!

MoQ
07-17-2000, 11:36 AM
How did you know Elvis was my cousin?

You know I was sayin that the Catholic/Buddhism comparison was baloney-filled hypocracy...

All of you are clearly unqualified to pass judgement on Heming on any level. "He's not at Shaolin and Shaolin isn't Shaolin anyway and it's not kung fu and he's not even Chinese and his teachers aren't monks and they aren't even Buddhist and..."

Y'all are a bunch of KOOKS...

TongLongPai
07-17-2000, 12:38 PM
MoQ,

I'm with you on this one man! Do some of you people have anything else better to do other than trying to proove someone wrong or write harsh thing about people? (You know who you are out of guilt...especially if you said: "Who ME?")
If MoQ is freinds with Heming, that is a good thing! Why are you trying to call him a Lap dog if he's taking up for his friend?
Ask your self this:
Try taking all the mean and harsh things that you wrote to Heming and the others and put yourself in their shoes, would you like to be attacked by someone and no one to back you up to Boot?
Come on you guys...surely you can think and see the error in your ways. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If someone is a fake "anything", then they will eventually be un-masked in the long run. Until then think humility before saying something. Cant we all just get along???

------------------
Omitoufo,
TLP

SHAOLINWOODENMAN
07-19-2000, 09:46 PM
I HAVE BEEN OUT FOR A WHILE BUT I AM BACK FOR A BRIEF MOMENT TO REPLY TO THIS STUFF.
BEING AN OLD MAN NOW AND HAVING BEEN TO THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE IN CHINA I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER MY VIEWS ON THIS SUBJECT. WHEN I WAS THERE(ABOUT 5YEARS AGO) I SAW MANY THINGS THERE. IT DIDNOT HAVE THE FEEL OF WHAT I FELT THAT THE TEMPLE WAS. IN MY TRAVELS TO BUDDHIST TEMPLES IN THAILAND AND SOUTHEAST ASIA I FOUND THAT BUDDHISM WAS THE CORE STUDY
THERE,,ALSO THERE WERE NOT ALOT OF TOURISTS THERE TO INVADE THE HARMONY, THERE WAS NO FIGHTING DONE AS BUDDHISM STRICTLY FORBIDS VIOLENT ACTIONS AGAINST ANOTHER. NOW AT THE SHOALIN TEMPLE I SAW NOTHING THAT WOULD LEAD ME TO BELIEVE THAT IT HAD BEEN RESSURRECTED AS A FULLY WORKING BUDDHIST CHURCH. BELEIVE ME YOUNG'ENS WHEN I TELL YOU I KNOW MY STUFF ON THE SUBJECT. I ALSO FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE MONKS ONLY DID FIGHTING AND KUNG-FU, THERE WAS A GREAT EMPHASIS ON EDUCATION IN THE BUDDHIST DOCTRINES. ALL OF THAT CHANGED WHEN MAO'S REGIME CAME INTO POWER AND COMMUNISM OUTLAWED THOSE PRACTICES.
MONKS WERE KILLED OR RUN OFF. I DO NOT WISH TO OFFEND BY MY OPPINIONS HERE, I AM RETIRED MILITARY AND SPENT MY RETIREMENT TRAVELLING ASIA. TO THE PEOPLE HERE THAT FEEL THAT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE IS A "THEME PARK" SO TO SPEAK,
I WOULD SAY THAT MAYBE THE PEOPLE THERE DO WHAT THEY CAN TO KEEP THINGS AS AUTHENTIC AS THEY CAN WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT THERE BREATHING DOWN THIER NECKS. I DOUBT THAT THE MARTIAL ARTS PRACTICED THERE ARE FAKE AND BEAR NO VALIDITY. BUT FOR THOSE WHO FEEL THAT THE TEMPLE IS THE REAL THING AND HAS BEEN FULLY RESSURRECTED I WOULD CAUTION YOU NOT TO GET SO WRAPPED UP IN THE FANTASY, REMEMBER WHAT MARTIAL ARTS/CHAN/ZEN TEACHES YOU ABOUT SHEDDING THE EXTERIOR AND LOOKING WITHIN. THAT SIMPLY MEANS THAT THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE OF ANYTHING DOES NOT MATTER BUT THE CONTENT OF WHAT LIES BENEATH THE EXTERIOR
IS WHAT REALLY COUNTS. BEING A PATRIOT OF MY COUNTRY AND A FIRM OPPOSER OF COMMUNISM,NOT BECAUSE I FEEL THAT COMMUNISM IS OUR ENEMY, BUT RATHER THE SHEDDING OF SPIRITUALITY AND RELIGION IS WHY I FEEL THAT THE SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK IN THE LONG RUN. OOPS I AM GETTING TOO POLITICAL HERE, IWILL CONCLUDE BY STATING THAT WHAT EVER THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE IS NOW IT SHOULD BE RESPECTED AS THE BIRTHPLACE OF MOST CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS. I DO NOT WORSHIP THE TEMPLE OR GIVE PRAISE TO ANYONE THERE,,,,,I WORSHIP THE POWER BEHIND IT,AND THE LEGACY IT HAS CREATED FOR THE WORLD. LET ME SAY ONE MORE THING,,,THE SOURCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE BE IT MA'S OR SHAOLIN OR EVEN GOD, BUDDHA,ETC. LIES WITHIN THE SELF.

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NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE BELT!

MoQ
07-20-2000, 12:38 AM
Thankyou Sir! Your lucid and insightful comments are very welcome and appreciated.

you may wanna lose the capslock though...

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 07-20-2000).]

Taijimantis
07-20-2000, 11:42 AM
Why all the Hate?

Much of China is not as it was years ago. But is it any more laughable than the ***** Redneck who runs the United States with his sexual misadventures?
Or the corrupt remains of the former Soviet Union?
The Shaolin Temple may be a tourist site, or a money making scheme, but its history is colorful and wonderful. I have seen the monks do wonderous things, and as a Buddhist I have to respect those there that still wish to seek the eightfold path.

Why are we so judgemental?

What difference does it really make?

We all know much of what goes on in this world is illusion, so why not leave it at that? It makes our blood pressure much lower!

Illusions keep the peace.

Besides, in 100 years who will be around to care? none of us. ENJOY!

molum_jr
07-20-2000, 06:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MoQ:
All of you are clearly unqualified to pass judgement on Heming on any level. "He's not at Shaolin and Shaolin isn't Shaolin anyway and it's not kung fu and he's not even Chinese and his teachers aren't monks and they aren't even Buddhist and..."

Y'all are a bunch of KOOKS...[/quote]

It has BEEN rather entertaining reading all these postings from forum to forum about Hemming and Shaolin. What I see is a form of marketing/capitalism employed by him. Is it from Hong Kong or the United Kingdom? Whatever moral/ethics we have about real Shaolin maybe irrelevant to him - He may not understand nor recognize these concepts. Does he know anything about western democracy and capitalism? How much education does he have and where was he educated. Judging by how he has been posting replies, it certainly is not from Beijing or Shanghai University.

I equate the guy to all these new "dot commers" who are riding the band wagon and making, investing in the Shaolin craze and cashing out in the future. Think about, like dot commers, he claims an altruistic value and noble effort (in this case Shaolin!); but I think he won't refuse to take the money when the opportunity presents itself.

Afterall, how much of capitalistic ethics does the Chinese market know except to MAKE $$$? Hemmins is competing w/literally thousands of like-minded "I want a piece of the action too!" Shaolin just happens to be it, and when all these visiting sifu's from the US arrive... He use them, take pictures, and ride on their coat tails also. A leech? We have them here in the USA also...


And the biggie...I don't know any Chinese person who was born in China that calls their mother, "mum!" Sissy boy?

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 07-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 07-21-2000).]

SHAOLINWOODENMAN
07-20-2000, 08:44 PM
It seems to me that the issue here is the money and the apparent capitalistic way that the shaolin temple is utilizing to stay active. many peoples anger towards Heming seems to stem from just that. How can an organization still remain pure in itself and yet be so money hungry? i think that we miss the point of this ongoing debate. the way i answer the above question is this:
SURVIVAL. We do what we can to survive in this ever growing industry of technology and computers. things such as shaolin and the natural ways are fading. they are fading because the followers of those ways refuse to EVOLVE into this century. I guess it is hard for a purist to make the crossover to the 21st century mindset and still remain true to his/her natural holistic frame of mind. Polluting the temple,so to speak. well all i can say is more power to the Temple for thier efforts to keep things alive and going despite what they have to conform to in order to survive. It is like other martial arts in this country that do the same.
they either modernize themselves and wash out the non-essentials(like bruce lee,jeet kune do) or they take on a whole different look and blend with other styles to better themselves(such as shaolin do)[which i have been reading the posts on in relation to this topic.) it all goes back to my earlier post regarding the outward appearance of things. my teacher is alot younger than i am and he looks like a little punk kid but being the man that i am i saw past that and
he turned out to be a genuine teacher for me.
and i for him as well. i hope that some day a democracy can return to China and the buddhist churches can safely resume their practices,as well as the shaolin temple. i am sure that they over there wish for it secretly,and so do i. so i take the temple now for what it is. that is all i have to say about the subject.

Chameleon
07-20-2000, 09:32 PM
Well said, Woodenman.

I wish some of these brave souls who accuse Heming of being fake, of not being Chinese, etc., would just call up the number he has provided. And then post their own number so that we can compare their authenticity to his.

This has all gotten silly. Heming has provided more personal information than anyone else on this board, and he's quoted in the article that started this thread.

Yes, he is promoting his school. Yes, this could be perceived as capitalistic....So what?

He has explained the desire for money, the need for money is explained in the article...Almost all of us study in schools that have been marketed effectively enough to raise money for basic things like toilets.

Promoting a martial arts school (one that doesn't have modern toilets yet) is hardly a way to get rich, and is clearly not the most effective money making scheme for an English speaking person in China.

I don't know whether Heming's art is the same authentic Shaolin that existed 100 years ago, or whether is modern wushu as modified by the government...I'll give him the benefit of doubt on this, since I'll never be able to know this for certain.

But all this crud about him not being Chinese should at leaste be backed up by someone who has called Heming, and is willing to provide their own phone number. And it should at leaste be accompanied by a plausible explaination of why he would want to pretend to be Chinese in the first place.

The attacks on him, IMO, have really started losing any logical foundation. (i.e. determining whether someone is Chinese based on which English words they use.) I tend to follow the Occam's Razor approach.

And it suggests to me that Heming is exactly who he says he is, exactly the guy whose picture is on his website, and exactly the guy quoted in the article...And that he is here for the exact reason he says he is here - to help his master by promoting his school...I can't find any rational motivation for him to lie about any of this.

Sure, Shaolin has become commercial...As Woodenman point out, this is a requirement for survival...But leave it at that, folks...There is no grand conspiracy here.

SifuAbel
07-21-2000, 12:28 AM
Let me clear this up for you,

The issues of his being chinese or not and whether monks should make money or not are byproducts sprouted from one initial argument. Heming claims that he is doing the one and only true Northern Shaolin kung fu and that all the rest of us are in fake land. And we argue back that whats at shaolin now is Governmental whitewash. This is the only real argument. The opinion that he is a delusional, sniveling, granola crunching, misfit comes from our perceptions. We don't really know this. As far as I'm concerned, he just sounds like the kid in school who would desperately do anything to be seen with the cool kids.

Chameleon
07-21-2000, 01:52 AM
SifuAbel:

Let me clear up my thoughts for you...Nothing I said in my last post was directed at your comments.

There is a rather vocal group that seems to have some need to challenge "fake" Shaolin people, and Heming has been a part of this...But in fairness to Heming, he pulled away from this, and has not called everyone but him fakes.

Before I'm going to consider anything fake, I'd at leaste have to observe it. And even then, I am by no means an authority, and completely aware that my "authentic" truth cannot really be proven better than anyone else's.

I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to have some need to challenge the authenticity of others, particularly when they haven't even observed them in action. And I'm amazed for what people accept as evidence to form their opinions.

Cosmetic things like the word, "mum" and words like "kata" and "gi" don't come anywhere near my requirements for serious evidence.

IMO, if someone wants to call Heming a fake, call him up, find out who he really is, and prove it convincingly.

And IMO, if someone wants to prove a style is fake, show how substantial pieces of content (i.e. tiger-crane form) differ from what you consider the "authentic" form, and be prepared to defend both your understanding of the "authentic" version, and your characterization of the version from the alleged "fake" style.

In conclusion, I'm sick of people calling eachother fakes, and everything relating to Shaolin ultimately coming down to these petty arguments about who is "authentic".

It is particularly disturbing to me because it makes "alleged" Shaolin practicioners look like a bunch of immature kids with inadequacy problems.

ffab@cyberkwoon.
07-21-2000, 06:05 AM
Again I will say here what I said in other threads about Heming.
I spent several days with him in Shaolin, where I interviewed his masters and some other "shaolin monks" (as real as it gets).
He is a young man, born in Zhejiang and probably raised in Hongkong. He told me that his dream was to come in Shaolin and study there, and he is doing that for almost 2 years now. His family is rich enough to allow him to be there and if he was really craving for money, be sure that shaolin is NOT the place to be.
Only ppl who never put a feet in Shaolin can imagine that it is an el dorado for local population.
It is true that some "monks" demonstrating or teaching abroad have a comparatively higher income than usual but this is very random. Let's remember that $1000 can seem a lot but put that once a year and that is finally very little money.
Finally here is a link to a picture of Heming, me, Rich (webmaster of the excellent www.russbo.com) (http://www.russbo.com)) and one of his friend.
Those who've been there will recognize the place. http://www.spheral.com/alma/ad/shaolin02.jpg
Now is someone still doubting about the origin of Heming ?

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Visit ALMA the leading CMA website : http://www.spheral.com/alma

[This message has been edited by ffab (edited 07-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by ffab (edited 07-22-2000).]

Heming
07-21-2000, 06:13 AM
Dear friends,

all the information of the Shaolin kungfu seminar in Hong Kong(2nd July, 2000) can be found at the English version page of Hong Kong University of Sci. & Tech. Martial Arts Soceity. Many photos of Master Shi Heng Jun and Heming are there. and more will be loaded later.

<http://home.ust.hk/~su_shao/>

People start to love Shaolin kungfu now, hehehehehehe...

Heming, Shaolin Temple

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Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

Heming
07-21-2000, 06:16 AM
the website of Hong Kong University Martial Arts Society is:
http://home.ust.hk/~su_shao/

Heming