Yet ANOTHER Weird Royal Dragon E-mail

[Royal Dragon]

This one is from those Chin woo wannab's in North Carolina ( www.dokungfu.com ). I have no frikin idea what set them off this time, but here's what they wrote me today. What do you guys all think of this??


Mr. Lenceoni,

Where, when and how are you connected to the Chao family? There is no possible way in hell you are even remotly connected to this family name. You are asking for a law suit even mentioning the Chao family name. Not to mention the use of copywritten materials. You are not a part of the tai tsu chang chuan system and never will be. Stop with your ignorant and flagrant abuse of the Chao family name. This letter was written by Mr. Barker and Mr. Bongaerts on behalf of Mr. David Kash the only true inheritor of the system, as taught to him directly by Grandmaster Chao Yuh Feng.

Mr. Barker
Mr. Bongaerts
Mr. Kash


Like I said, I have no idea what thier beef is here. I don't have any "Copywrited" materials (Except stuff I've authored myself), let alone use it if I did.

I don't know what he means by Ignorant, Flagorant abuse of the Chao family name. The only thing I can even think of where I reacently used it was to describe the kind of Taiji Quan I do, which is Chao style Taiji Quan. He can't be miffed about that..........can he? If so, what does that make him?

[Shaolin-Do]

A stupid ninny boy miff piece of ****e!

With no offense intended to RD ill more than happily flagrantly and ignorantly bash the chao family name.

:D

[taijiquan_student]

Don't worry about it, RD. Sounds like he's watched one too many Hong Kong kung-fu flicks.

[Royal Dragon]

From what I see, you don't have to bash the Chao family name, you just have to mention it.

Personally, I don't think the Chao family gives a rats's As.s about these people. They have good Taiji Quan (Even if it's a modern system), they know it. Why these people in NC even care who says the word "Chao" is beyond me. Thier "Leader" was just a student of a Chao family member, not actual blood family or anything.

Chao Yuh Feng died in 1996. His Nephew is rummured to be learning Tai Tzu at a prominat school in Taiwan. He's not even in the US himself. What does some former student of his, living here in North Carolina care who knows, practices, or talks about THEIR Taiji Quan system for anyway? 7 Years after he died? I don't see the Chen family getting all PO'd because someone says "Chen". It's not like you can own the name "Chao" and have exclusive rights to it. It's a rather common name in China. How do you copywrite someone's family name anyway?

These people are frik'n nutts if you ask me.

[Brad]

You are asking for a law suit even mentioning the Chao family name.
So a guy named KASH is going to sue you for saying the name CHAO. Makes a lot of sense, lol.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Brad

So a guy named KASH is going to sue you for saying the name CHAO. Makes a lot of sense, lol.

Kash just wants the Cash. :D

[rubthebuddha]

if the chao family cared, then they would act on their own or through some legitimate legal spokesperson, not through some nob writing a letter on behalf of someone else assuming authority over the name of a third party.

if he was a lawyer, he'd refer to himself as such. if he was a chao, his name wouldn't have a slight western european hint to it.

use it for a laugh then file it away in your "letters with little or no merit or relevance to the world in which i live" folder.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! I thought you guys would like this one. I'm sure your tired of me posting different variations of the "Nigera" scamm (Got a new version of that one reacently Btw)

Oh, btw, David Kash's real last name is "Natolie". I found this out when I was researching the fact that he was claiming to be the head of Won Ark Wey's lineage.

[TonyM.]

flash me their email and Ill have some choice words about their parents marital status for them.

[Royal Dragon]

"dgprout" <dgprout@netzero.net>

He he he he, yeah he changed his website after I gave him greife about that one roughly 2 years ago. Now he just says he's "One" of the inheritors. You should look at his lineage charts though, he's assigned Derek Prout as the inheritor now. the way it's written, it looks like he's the only one or something.


http://www.dokungfu.com/college/page4.html

[Royal Dragon]

From his history of Chin woo page he writes

http://www.dokungfu.com/index_page0001.htm
Grandmaster Huo Yan Jia (founder of Chin Woo, 1867 - 1909) was the fourth child in the family of 10 brothers and sisters.

Under his bennifits of membersips page he writes

http://www.dokungfu.com/index_page0003.htm
* * You become part of a famous historical organization founded in 1909 by the famous Master Ho Yuan Jia and you receive a beautiful certificate in both Chinese and English suitable for framing.



However, I have been contacting Chin woo every year, for several years now (like 4), at Shanghi, Hong Kong, and the US Texas branch, and they have never heard of him for most of the itmes I contacted them, till reacently that is. Now they say they know of "Cloud forest Chin Woo", but they are not in any way shape or form connected to THE Chin Woo Athletic association as claimed all over the cloud forest website.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when your own suposed organasation won't even admit your part of them, maybe you should stop trying to pretend?

An this guy wants to sue little old me for saying "Chao"?



Shhh, Don't say Chao!!!!!!

[Black Jack]

I thought Kash was one of your teachers for awhile their. I remeber you once mentioning you think he was not very honest about certain aspects of his teachings.

Did you break up after you found out some things?

[rubthebuddha]

chao chao chao chao
chao chao chao chao

(said to the meow mix tune:
i like chicken
i like liver
meow mix meow mix
please deliver)

[Royal Dragon]

Actually I was under Livingston. He was at one time partners with Kash. Kash however was never my teacher (Thank God)

I was associated with him and his group for a wile because of my connection to Livingston. We all practice the same Chao style Taiji Quan as taught by Chao Yuh Feng, who taught it to both Kash, and Livingston (an apparently a good number of other people).

Kash seems to think it's Tai Tzu Chang Chuan for some reason, when it's really a modern Yang Short form with a couple postures form the General Qi Jiguang 32 move Tai Tzu Chang Chuan Chart mixed in.

Anyone who does the Chen Man Ching 37 move form, knows the form move for move up to the first 9-10 moves or so. The expression is a tad different, but it's the same damm thing otherwise, till you get past the Single Whip, that's where it becomes it's own form.

Actually, as for his lack of "Honesty" I really owe you guys at KFO for opening my eyes to that one. You guys are the ones who kept needling me about the histories, and dubious claimes he's made over the years. Many others would get po'd and insulted, I decided to listen to all of you and look into things and found you were all right about him.

Of course his students deciding to follow me around the net and attacking me completly out of the blue for no real reason helped with that too, but I didn't know it was them at first. that's what sparked the world war, because they ****ed me off with that, so I published my findings on the research I had done on him in retaliation. They finnaly shut up when I threatened to publish their sacred 37 move form to anyone willing to send me a blank video.

LOL@ rubthebuddha :D

Shhh, Don't say Chao!!!!!!

[Surferdude]

I'm the inheritor of Mr.Chao. See!!!:D

Mr.Chao-------------------------Someone else------------Surferdude:D
(not Mr.Kash):D

I think the guy just had a bad day and wanted to vent his rage!!!

[Royal Dragon]

Shhh, Don't say Chao!!!

I think the guy just had a bad day and wanted to vent his rage!!!

Reply]
No, these dickweeds can't handle the fact that other people know Tai Tzu, and they don't. They also can't handle the fact that thier Tai Chi is just plan old regular Tai Chi, and not some sort of "Original internal art of the Ancient Emperors". Same goes for their Bagua, and Hsing I.

[rubthebuddha]

RD -- is that video offer still good? i'll send a video and a s.a.s.e. :D

























p.s.chao. ;)

[Royal Dragon]

I said "Don't say Chao" those guys in NC get upset when you do that!!!:eek:


PS. I'll PM you my address. Give me some time to tape myself doing it. I suck, so try not to judge my performance to harshly.

[rubthebuddha]

RD, you do realize that by putting the word "chao" in your sig line, all 2,509 (at current count) messages of yours will have the word "chao" in their sig as well, right?

[Royal Dragon]

ARRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!! I'm Dooooommmmmedddd!!! :(






















:D

[norther practitioner]

Yao, or is that Chao.... oh well, just thought I'd bring up another place it'd come up if they did a search here....

yo
yao
yo
yao
yao
chao
yao
chao
chao
mao
chao
mao
:D

Tell them to come up to Chicago and tell it to your face :D

[Royal Dragon]

He he he he, I am beginning to get my game back. It could be a good peliminary fight for me to help prep me for Kuo Shuo.

[rubthebuddha]

ah yes, getting warm beating up on gits is a good thing, but more than three and you're starting to lose tact.

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Shhh, Don't say Chao!!!


Reply]
No, these dickweeds can't handle the fact that other people know Tai Tzu, and they don't. They also can't handle the fact that thier Tai Chi is just plan old regular Tai Chi, and not some sort of "Original internal art of the Ancient Emperors". Same goes for their Bagua, and Hsing I.

You tell em!!!:D
O yeah did i forget to mention Chao???:D :eek: :p

[Oso]

you guys are too silly...


and rub, I bet I do that form better than RD;)

[Royal Dragon]

You may very well do it better than me. However, I'm not really all that bad. I did it tonight all the way through, and I was pretty happy with it. Other than I've only lost 20 of the 60 pounds I gained over the injury, I really don't look too bad. Think Dago with a "pasta" belly, in an all black Kung Fu uniform doing Taiji, and that pretty much about summs me up. ;)

[Oso]

just messing wit you man.

we'll have to do a 36/37 showdown one day.:)

[Royal Dragon]

We should do it at next years Kuo Shuo. I'm hoping to be ready to fight by then.

[Oso]

naw, we gots to do it old skool...we both disappear into a room and then come out later and not discuss the event.


of course, we'll be sitting there drinking for a couple of hours but, that's why we don't disclose the outcome of the match.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! Yeah and I'm sure we'd have a nice old laugh about this situation too!!

Kash would drop a load if he saw me doing that set at Kuo Shuo. Especially if I was also selling videos of it for $3.95 each.

[Oso]

dude, imo, just ignore it all and move on.

g'night.

[Royal Dragon]

If I ignore it, look at all the fun I'd be misisng out on though :D

Really, you can't denie enjoying all the sillienss this post has brought the board today, can you?

Seriously, I'm not even mad about it, this whole thing is just one big, entertaining joke to me at this point. (shhh, don't say "chao")

[rubthebuddha]

RD -- every dago i know has a pasta belly, even the scrawny ones. ;)

ah well. i'll find me a tape. then i'll con oso into doing the same thing, and i'll judge the two of you two. considering i have no idea how the form should really look, i'll be the perfect objective observer.

[Serpent]

CHAO




































Just doing my bit to help. ;)

[joedoe]

Chao? Isn't that how Italians say goodbye? :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Yes.
While riding scooters.
CHAO
actually chiao.
I shall smite the chao family name!
AHA!
I have written it without a properly cased first letter!!!!!!?!?!?!

**** im tired.

[Serpent]

Actually, that's ciao.

But we're talking about Chao here.

[joedoe]

I know, I was being a d!ck :D

What is kinda ironic is that the Italians use ciao to say goodbye. The Hokkien use a similar sounding word to tell you to go/run away. A Marco Polo influence perhaps? :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Marco!

[SifuAbel]

How can we not say Chao?

We use it everyday in the inner city.

For example,

"Hey mutha, I got chao wallet sucka."

"I'm gonna Kick chao azz."

"is that chao mama running from the po-lease?"

"Shut chao mouth!"

Etc.

[Royal Dragon]

POLO!!

Just so you guys all know, Kash probably wants to sue all of us by now.................:p

[rubthebuddha]

for what? can't copyright a common chinese name and legitimately expect it not to be spoken. they'd have to sue half of china for the same reasons.

besides, how many different words in mandarin or cantonese would be pinyinized into something like "chao?" i'd wager at least half a dozen. add the thousands of other dialects just from china alone, and the word "chao" starts to lose its individuality.

one handy thing about copyright in america -- a company owning a copyright must make an active effort to hold on to its copyright. toys 'r' us owns the copyright to the backwards 'r' used in such context. if i start a company called "auto parts 'r' us" and mimic toys 'r' us, they must first demand in writing that i cease and desist (i think they'd want me to stop as well). if i don't, then it's open season for lawsuits. however, if toys 'r' us lets it slide, and lets another company slide, etc., eventually, they lose the right to claim usage of the backwards 'r.' kind of one of those "tough ****" laws -- if you don't take care of it as it happens, too darn bad.

[Surferdude]

Maybe if we say chao enough he'll go crazy and exlpode?:D :p
Or he'll just go away:D

[Royal Dragon]

No, he won't just go away. Buut if we tease him enough though, he might just come on here and make a fool out of himself for our enjoyment.

[Laughing Cow]

RD.

Does Chao style HAVE a head of the style or similar.

Many styles I know only mention that a lineage holder is xx generation, but don't have a "head of style" perse.

Example:
In Chen TJQ there are many 19th and 20th generation teachers now, but I don't think anyone is recognised as the "head of the style" even though many students wouldn like to claim their Sifu as such.

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, suposedly, when Chao Yuh Feng died, Kash was it. Being his senior student, that makes sense, BUT, from what I have heard form guys over seas, his nephew is practicing the style in the Tai Tzu school he's leaning his Tai Tzu from in Taiwan. It's my understanding that Kash is not recognised as the head of the system by the family, and as far as I know Chao Yuh Feng's nephew would probably be it.

The problem I have, is the Chao family, from what I know, Is rather reclusive and prone to only teaching other family members (So I'm told). So I don't see Chao Yuh Feng making Kash head of the family when his Nephew is alive and knows the system. I don't have any actual contact with them directly, only through a third party who is in contact with someone at that school. My info on them is like 4th or 5th hand at best. I'm told the school in Taiwan does the same 37 move Taiji form we do here, and my contact in Australia is of that same line, and his school does the set too (I have video of them performing it in a group from a school demo.), so I'm assuming Chao's Nephew is teaching it at the Tai Tzu school in Taiwan.

If you were to ask me to make some logical sense of it, I'd have to speculate that as Chao Yuh Feng's senior most student, Kash is the man for the Chao style internal systems in the US, so he does have "Some" authority to a point. However, I also hear the Chao family doesn't recognise him as the "Head of family", so that may Nix it all. If they do, do a family head deal, I'd say it's Chao Yuh Feng's Nephew, who so far has been very quite on the whole thing. I don't even know what his name is (For sure anyway, I suspect I have it listed in my records).

I have been told, that there is no actual record of Kash being given the head of family title by Chao Yuh Feng (other than stuff Kash has personally). I am also told none in Taiwan ever remebers Chao Yuh Feng mentioning any intentions of making Kash head of the family (or anyone else for that matter). Kash claims Chao Yuh Feng tried to get him to marry his daughter at one point, but with all the BS I've uncoverd on that guy, I think that claim is suspect.

My personal opinion, Is Chao's Nephew is head of the family, and Kash just tried to assume it apon Chao Yuh Feng's death because there was noone in the US to stop him. In fact he suposedly petitioned the Chinese government for some sort of auhtority over it, like getting permission to teach it as the head or something. Why he would not have gone to the family itself is beyond me, other than he's not as well connected to them as he likes to make out.

The Nephew being in Tawin either does not know about it, or knows and does not care, although I have also heard rummur that they are quite ****d at Kash, so who knows for real whats going on. All I can say for sure, is the Chao Taiji Quan IS NOT Tai tzu chang chuan, nor is it the original internal system of the ancient Emperor. I know that it is practiced in small pockets here and there on 3 continents (Taiwan, Austalia, and 3 area's in the US.) It's rummured to be in a few other places being taught in isolated schools, like mine, and another that descended from Livingston, but that is about it. Kash is only really in controll of the branch he heads, and not any of the rest of it.

I dare say there are far bigger players in Taiwan who not only have the Chao internal systems, but also the real Tai Tzu, both external, and internal (Actually, I know this for a fact as some of my material ultimately comes from them). I would think THEY are the authorites on it, if there is any, as they have everything under one roof, including Chao Yuh Feng's Nephew. Kash only seems to have the Chao family internals (What he "Calls" Tai Tzu Chang Chuan"), alot of "Bravado", alot of false claims of being part of Chin Woo, and some sort of major player in Won Ark Whey's lineage..................and nothing much else.

[Royal Dragon]

One more thing, about the claim in the E-mail of me not being a tai tzu player, I may have only had video couraspondence, backed up with some flights to live teachers hear and there, BUT in my research files, I have video of the style from

1. Mainland China
2. Taiwan (Bunches of it from there, including a closed door set accidentally sent to me mixed in with other sets, and the 72 move internal Long Fist set)

3. Malaysia (Footage shot in the US, but the systems come from Malaysia)
4. Hong Kong
5. Australia (Extension of the Taiwan Branch)

In addition, I have been in contact with or know of Tai Tzu players in

1. Mainland China
2. Taiwan
3. Singapore (rep from that branch is currently living in Mainland China)
4. Canada
5. France (no contact yet, but there are major schools there)
6. Hong Kong (Only have video of an old master from there)
7. USA (our very own Sifu Abel, his teacher, and another who wishes to remain quiet)

I personally pracitce a mix of forms form several branches

1. Yi Lu from the Hong Kong Branch
2. Jap Siao Ma Kune from the Malaysian branch (Sifu Abel's Southern Tai Jow Kune)
3. San Zhen, 4 doors, Yi Lu, Cutting slice from Taiwan's Southern Tai Tzu Quan (Very similar to the Singapore branch. It's ultimately from Fujian)
4. The Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan (Forsale on my site in the "Ten famous Shaolin Boxing" series), I do the NON comercial version of the set.

I ALSO have the charts of the General Qi Jiguang 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that are clear enough to work out the form, translations to the Chinese, AND applications to the set.

The Nitwit who thinks I don't actually practice this stuff, and that I don't know any of it, and CAN'T possibly know any of it, can't even name the first 3 moves of ANY of the authentic forms from ANY line. I can demmo 7 sets from a variety of lineages including what many consider to be the closest set to the Emperor's original form, and even some application of them. Infact, that perticular nitwit thinks a modern "Tai Chi" is Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

The same nitwit also thinks they are the ONLY Tai Tzu school on the planet, are THE authority of it, and are rightfully in controll of everything, when in fact Tai Tzu, although not too common, can be found vertually everywhere if you look hard enough. Heck, it's even got a few comercial videos out from more than one lineage, who most likely don't even know the "Nitwits" who wrote me that E-mail even exist.

[Shaolin-Do]

Why does the chao family hate you so?
We should choke them out.

[Surferdude]

Haha "nitwits" haha:D

[Tainan Mantis]

Royal Dragon,
You said something about a nephew of Chao studying at a prominent school in Taiwan.
Where is that and what do they teach?

What do you think about the Chen Taiji form called Tou Tao being almost identical to the 32 posture Taidzu form in Chi Jiguang's Ming dynasty book?

[Royal Dragon]

Why does the chao family hate you so?

Reply]
They don't hate me, I doubt I even register on their radar. Those Nitwhit's in North Carolina hate me because my existence means they aren't the only people claiming to be Tai Tzu out there, and my constant research, and publisihing of my findings exposes them as frauds (IE. Chin Woo they are not).

You said something about a nephew of Chao studying at a prominent school in Taiwan.
Where is that and what do they teach?


Reply]
I'll have to ask, but I "Believe" it's the school run by the late Liao Wuchang's Son.

What do you think about the Chen Taiji form called Tou Tao being almost identical to the 32 posture Taidzu form in Chi Jiguang's Ming dynasty book?

Reply]
Someone E-mailed me about this a few weeks ago, I told them I had never heard of such a form, and it may just be a case of something being called Tai Tzu when it's not. He didn't mention it matches the Chart though. He said he saw a Tai Tzu form that looked exactly like a Chen Taiji form he's seen. Although, if it matches that chart, it's got to be legit, even if it was reacently developed from the chart itself.

HOWEVER, I don't really know too much about this, and I'd like to see the set if I could. Would you be willing to send me some video of it? Or point me to someone who could? If it does match the chart, it may very well be the Qi jiguang form presereved through the Chen Taiji lineage. That would be very interesting.

Tai Tzu is still not Taiji Quan, it's Tai Tzu as far as I'm concerned. It's it's own art, but it IS creditied with influancing Chen Taiji, so the possibility of the Qi Jiguang set being in the line is pretty good, especially since that chart has been public knowledge since 1544 AD. It's hard to forget it due to it's documentation and publishing. To be honest with you, I'm actually suprised this set isn't more prolific, and we haven't seen or heard more about it in Magazines and such over the years. You'd think it would make a good artical due to it's being a historically documented form traceable to the Ming dynasty. Or the PRC would have turned it into a compulsery competition set by now or something. It won't change anything with the people who wrote me the E-mail though, but still it would be a fascinating avenue of research.

Tell me more about this set, what's it's history? Is it something newly developed by the Chen family to help tie them to the Emperor, or legitmise their history a bit more? Or is this a set that has been there since the dawn of time, and we are just first hearing about it now? I thought there were only two Old Chen sets left, and the rest were all modern. Who first publicized the set?