are forms really enough?

[SilentMantis]

What does it take to become an effective fighter through practicing praying mantis? Without sufficient sparring will I still develope into a good fighter if i only practice my forms? My goal is to be prepared for any situation (i'm one of those"what if" type people), but if i'm lacking that two man experience am I just wasting my time?
Opinions?

[B.Tunks]

SM,


Originally posted by SilentMantis
What does it take to become an effective fighter through practicing praying mantis? Without sufficient sparring will I still develope into a good fighter if i only practice my forms? My goal is to be prepared for any situation (i'm one of those"what if" type people), but if i'm lacking that two man experience am I just wasting my time?
Opinions?

In answer to your valid question; no.

Sparring is also not the only answer, but forms on their own are next to useless. I dont think you are wasting your time though, as any Tanglang is a good start.
b.t

[baldmantiz]

while you can still develop speed and balance from forms alone, unless you feel how a living breathing person will react to your technique first hand....you will miss out on being a truly effective fighter....

[Kristoffer]

Forms in any system is there for a reason, so you will benefit from doing them. You will probably learn speed, posture etc.. But on the other hand you don't NEED forms to be a great fighter. It is just a training tool.

[ursa major]

This a great question SilentMantis.

I do not believe you can prepare for 'every circumstance'. There is simply not enough hours in a day to prepare for any possible threat you may encounter. So you have to make some choices. I have made them based upon past experience and probabilities. For example, it is extremely low probability that I will encounter a Turkish wrestler bathed in grease so won't prepare for that threat. On the other hand there is a reasonable probability that I may encounter a 'road rage' and have to fight off and/or subdue a temporary lunatic (hahaha commuting is no longer a spectator sport).

I have three key focal points for training and they the learning of forms, interpretation of forms applications and then the practice of those applications in sparring with like minded individuals. IMO there is no substitute for sparring practice but you cannot spar successfully in a system without understanding that system (applications) and of course learning it's language (forms).

Also I do not believe that just practicing the forms is wasting your time.

my .02 cents worth,
UM.

[bungda07]

Great topic. I would say picking out the techniques from the sets you know helps out. Mastering one technique from every set would be nice. Truely mastering the use of Heart stealing punch, Bung Da, etc. You have to know from experiance they work. They are the gems that are always polished and ready to go. We learn 20 or more sets through our years of training, but how many of those applications are right there for you. I think going out and trying these techniques on other martial systems is important. This for me is based off my speed, my size, how big or small an opponent ect.

"ONLY EASY DAY WAS YESTERDAY"

Steve M.

[Shaolin-Do]

Forms by themself can help your perfection of technique, learn the overall feel and movement of it.
Sparring against a willing opponent is also not very good... Gotta apply techniques on someone who is not allowing you to do so. I dont think sparring is the end all be all of training, but i do feel its fairly important part of the day. Wouldnt want to miss my weights or stance or form work or iron palm either.
:)

[Skarbromantis]

Silent...Pm me if you wanna spar, I can fly down by your area, or you can come check me, I need a sparing partner, also, my current partner is a little short :D .........

What happened to your boy?

Skard1

[Yung Apprentice]

What if the question was reversed? (sorry, not a mantis guy:( )

What if you did absolutley no forms, but did do a lot of sparring, two man sets, and bag work. Could someone still become a good fighter, even though their techniques might not be as good as someone who does do forms?

[BeiTangLang]

Short answer, yes.
Long answer, there are many variables to consider.

[Tainan Mantis]

I agree with BeiTangLang

[Nick8stepPM]

Forms are enough, provided you know the applications to the forms for self-defense.

[fidon]

Forms are definately there for a reason, from the form you can break it up to practise the single techniques, and from that you should be able to generate the power needed through the correct practice. Then eventually you should be able to generate power in your form the way it was meant to be.

[Mr.Binx]

Forms are help you to improve your martial form (power-generation, base of balance, proper movement of limbs/joints, etc.) and to help you understand the progression or flow of techniques that one should follow for any given style.

Partnered drills and touching hands help to teach real-world application of technique, personal ranges, and martial reaction in response to your immediate dynamic environment.

Sparring for tanlang practicioners, in my opinion, shouldn't even come into the equation until an individual is many years into their training. By sparring before technique flow, form, and application have been ingrained into your body's reflexive memory you may very likely be retarding your learning of tanglang by dredging up old non-tanglang reflexive techniques.

There are many other teaching tools that are used by individuals to teach martial arts, but sparring and forms/kata are normally the only two argued upon in martial circles. There are multiple teaching tools for a reason... You don't bake a cake with just a one ingredient, do you? Guess what I'm trying to say is don't be in such a hurry with your tanglang and use as many resources as you can that have been provided for you. It's an extremely complex art. The amount of effort and resources you put into your kungfu will be exponentially proportional to the results you are going to receive.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

SilentMantis,
No, forms are not enough. However, if all you can do is forms (no cell mate?) for whatever reason then it will certainly give you an advantage over someone with no training. As others have said there is a lot to be gained from forms practice but to be a fighter you have to fight.

[mantis108]

Sparring for tanlang practicioners, in my opinion, shouldn't even come into the equation until an individual is many years into their training. By sparring before technique flow, form, and application have been ingrained into your body's reflexive memory you may very likely be retarding your learning of tanglang by dredging up old non-tanglang reflexive techniques.

Sorry, I don't think I can agree with the time frame indicated in the statement.

First and foremost, Boxing stylists sparr like boxing because they use boxing techniques. BJJ stylists sparr or rather roll like BJJ becasue they use BJJ techniques. Judo stylists sparr or perform randori like Judo because they again use Judo techniques. Thai boxers and others do that too. So on and so forth. Moreover, they all sparr early in their training. Now, why can't Kung Fu stylists do that? Why can't Tanglang stylist fighting using Tanglang techniques in their early stage? Is it the look (the form) makes the technique or is it the principle that makes the technique? What is so difficult about hook-grab-pluck that it takes years to achieve the "prefect" form and then might be able to use it efficiently (hopefully)?

I start my students with hook-grab-pluck and a drill which I call black tiger steals heart that has high left cross, high right uppercut and a low right punch (kind of a jab). Also I give them one armbar and one counter of the armbar. Within the first 4 lessons (about 8 hours), they are already sparring with these stuff where the goal is to successfully slap on an armbar with the help of the strikes. Of course it is the secrat duty of the partner to resist. Some of them who have natural talent can sparring within the first 2 hours with these techniques with okay form. The problem with this type of teaching format is that the teacher might be put into a bit of a jam from time to time [re: embrassing misses] not to mention potential physical injury (we are human after all). So without ample of experience and contigent strategies, he might risk loosing students faster than he can gain them.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of schools have to "sell" you the forms to sustain an income. Of course, if you have such disposable income to spare, well I am happy for ya. ;) Not a lot of teachers today would risk loosing their meal tickets, my friend.

So my opinion: I suck at forms. I don't do a lot of forms (4 forms are what I am focusing on). I do Tanglang Sau Fa (applications) and drills day in day out. I have experienced people, some are into competitions or even correctional services, from other disciplines (karate, Taekwondo, MMA, etc...) who happen to like what I do and ask to come and train. Does that mean that I am a good fighter? No, it just means that Tanglang Kung Fu has something serious and refreshing to offer in a mundane MA world and it is not always just about forms. ;)

Oh, forgot to mention, I got hit all the time (of course I hit back. lol...) and the students love what they do even more. So there you go.

Regards

Mantis108

[Mr.Binx]

Just to clarify, I consider sparring to be where you have individuals who will be using their entire arsenal against an opponent with partial-to-full contact (not limited to just hands or training specific techniques). I do not count partnered drills as sparring, though you are still practicing application against a resisting opponent.

I don't believe you can teach an inidividual 12 techniques versus hand and foot strikes then tell him to spar expecting him to not get hurt. What if the opponent comes in with knees, elbows, joint-locks, chokeholds, take-downs, etc.? At that stage I would probably lean more towards the prescription specific partnered drills to strengthen the physical application of what they have been taught thus far. By limiting only senior students to sparring the teacher is ensuring that there is minimal physical damage to your students (as they are better prepared for a large range of attacks they are likely to face) to keep them coming back and at the same time keeping the name of the school untarnished.

On a side note, the teaching of Western Boxing, Muy Thai, Pancrase, Budo, and many other linear martial arts have different theories of the combat dynamic that are actually strengthened by the early use of sparring. While this may prove beneficial for many arts, I do not believe that this same theory applies equally to my specific branch of tanglang.

On a closing note, I'd like to reinforce that these, of course, are my own personal opininons. If your opinions differ from my own, then that does not mean that either of us is incorrect... it only strengthens the fact that each of us has the ability and strength of character to think for ourselves. :)

[Mr.Binx]

P.S.: I think Hua Lin Laoshi was right-on when he posted "...to be a fighter you have to fight." Hoorah! ;)

[mantis108]

Certainly, drills and sparring are 2 different things. But then techniques and lessons learned in drills should be able to apply in sparring or in fighting for that matter; otherwise, what is the point drilling techniques? BTW, I think there is a different perspectives on the definitions of sparring. It would seem to me that you are speaking of a close to a real fight format. I can see the reason why you would prefer it to be reserved for the senior students. Personally, sparring need not to be always deul to the death like. Reasonably forceful sparring can be a great exercise of lessons learned. I hear you on the different dynamics for different arts. As for getting hurt, not that I am gung ho, it is part of the deal. If the students aren't prepare to accept the risk involve, they shouldn't be there. I do warn them about what's involved before they try out their first free class and many don't return after the freebee... BTW, there is the "good" hurt and the "bad" hurt. So...

Interesting that you would mention 12 techniques. I hope it doesn't sound like a promotional plug. In CCK TCPM, there are 12 techniques or Sau Fa that are grouped together for the novices to work with as their entry level self defense material. These 12 do cover a wide range of situations including clinch, knee strikes, joint locks, takedown, etc... Of course different branches even schools form the same lineage of PM deal with teaching materials differently. It is in my mind more of a matter of teaching "policy" when presenting materials to students. Well, to each their own.

I agreed that we are all entitled to our own opinion. Thank you for sharing yours with me. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[SilentMantis]

Thanks to everyone for the help. However something was brought up that i'd like to further discuss. That is sparring in the context of a real life situation, in which neither person knows what the other is going to do. Essentially using your whole arsenal against someone. When i first began studying kung fu, my prospects were to be able to fight like jet li or jackie chan. But fights don't happen like in the movies. If you know what your doing they actually don't last very long. The applications of the praying mantis sytle a very direct and effective, and students i know, as well as myself find it hard to hold back. Therefore when we spar its kinda reserved. SO my question is whether or not that type of sparring is applicable to the praying mantis style? Can students go back and forth, throwing attacks and countering them at the same time when our style is aimed at hindering the opponent in a matter of moves?

[HuangKaiVun]

If you REALLY want to learn how to fight using Praying Mantis (or any other kung fu style), you have to train for reality scenarios.

And that requires skilled training partners and a skilled training coach.

For example, we do a drill for the women in which big attackers rush them and pick them up off the ground. The women have to fight back by scratching and clawing in a realistic fashion but without realistic power.

What ISN'T realistic is putting on the pads and dancing around in a ring trying to score points on each other. Real life attackers will wade right through your hardest blows and either try to take you down or take you out. And facing multiple armed opponents is a scenario rarely practiced, even (especially) in top level BJJ schools.

Training how to really fight is never going to be like REALLY fighting (or so the US military and I believe), but one can hone his combat skills in a controlled environment to a very high extent.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by SilentMantis
...If you know what your doing they actually don't last very long. The applications of the praying mantis sytle a very direct and effective, and students i know, as well as myself find it hard to hold back. Therefore when we spar its kinda reserved. SO my question is whether or not that type of sparring is applicable to the praying mantis style? Can students go back and forth, throwing attacks and countering them at the same time when our style is aimed at hindering the opponent in a matter of moves?
I think a fighter learns more by sparring hard often, than fighting often. The reason I believe this is because REAL fights don't last long. Whereas sparring, you can nail your opponent a couple of times, throw him to the ground, help him up, and continue sparring (or vice-versa). You DON'T need to break his nose, swell his eyes shut, or dislocate his shoulder, to know that you executed a technique effectively. You can force your sparring partner to the ground in an arm-bar, and know whether you could've continued to apply force and hyper-extend his arm without ACTUALLY doing it.

You can spar hard once a day, every day for a month, and gain valuable fighting experience, and be comfortable with throwing hands in combat. You can also fight once a day, every day for a month, make enemies and get yourself killed.

To be honest, I've seen guys training for UFC that break each-others noses, bust their lips, and give each-other black-eyes. If you're training for an upcoming no-holds barred match, you should train with the same intensity. Still, they don't train like this ALL the time.

Boxers, UFC competitors, wrestlers, they all hone their techniques in training (sparring, bag-work, endurance, etc.). They don't hone their skills in the ring on the evening of the bout, or the street.

[bung bo]

i think learning and perfecting forms is important in one's training. i like doing them. they help with balance, endurance, energy transference, ect. but i agree with Bei and Tainan that one can fight effectivly with drills, bag work, and sparring. i've found that i learn most of my stuff better through drills.

[GOT'EM]

I feel forms offer ideas and techniques that you should apply when you spar/fight.Just think about it,these forms have been around for hundreds of years.Someone was kicking butt using techniques from forms.Your kung-fu ancestors(who killed more people than any of us hope to)thought enough of the forms to keep them,and pass them on to their students.Then they killed people.I've learned there are no shortcuts in kung-fu.And if you neglect one of your training tools then you just limiting yourself.Don't get me wrong drills are very important in gaining fighting skills.But,within these drills should contain techniques from the forms.

[bung bo]

good post GOT'EM. i have been thinking about this topic a bit lately. i have gotten a lot of ideas from stuff in forms. also, most things in drills are the same movements over and over, (don't get me wrong, i'm a big fan of repititious training) and you can learn to almost "sleepwalk" through them, even if you're doing them balls to the walls. forms offer some more variation. you usually have to pay more attention.

i strongly agree if you neglect one part of your training you are short changing yourself. those forms and drills are there for a reason.