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word
08-13-2000, 01:39 PM
The school has certificates from the SHAOLIN TEMPLE. School of chamions. The school has trophies all around the room. They have famous " SHAOLIN" masters give seminars every month.

End result :

I saw horrible stances. Front stance had the leading foot straight and the backfoot pointing west. One more thing, NOT ONE PERSON IN THE ROOM, INCLUDING BLACKBELTS, PUNCHED WITH A STRAIGHT WRIST. All had their elbows locked too.

What about credentials again?

Kung Lek
08-13-2000, 07:01 PM
What you were watching according to your description was contemporary Wu Shu and not traditional martial Kung fu.

Contemporary Wu Shu is the mainstay of the practice at Shaolin today, so the credentials are correct too. There is very little (some but not the bulk) traditional martially applicable Kung Fu practiced at Shaolin today. Who knows when they will come full circle and start with the steady course of authentic Kung Fu.

oh well...

peace

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Kung Lek

JWTAYLOR
08-14-2000, 01:22 AM
Did I miss something? What school in particular are we talking about here?

JWT

humblewarrior
08-14-2000, 01:23 AM
i have always read that there is no such thing as a black belt in kung fu.

Kung Lek
08-14-2000, 01:50 AM
Hi-

HW- as you may well know, there are plenty of traditional KF schools that use a ranking system based on belts or sashes.

100 years ago what you are saying would be absolutely correct and in some schools today you are correct in your assumption. But as i say, there are plenty of Sash /Belt holders in plenty of different styles of CMA.

It is up to the school master to decide whether or not they are going to use a system such as this.

peace

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Kung Lek

Brad
08-14-2000, 02:29 AM
I would put my contemporary wushu fighting skills up against almost any traditional kung fu guy any day. You really seem to know very little about real modern wushu like the vast majority of "traditionalists" out there. If real shaolin is anything like most of the traditional arts I've seen, the old monks must have been pretty pathetic.

Arioch7
08-14-2000, 03:29 AM
I have to agree with Brad on this one(Except the bashing.). Whenever I see Wushu people, they have a lot of power and their stance work is incredible.

Perhaps some modern Wushu forms may not have a martial application but I bet 90% of the Martial Artists I know would not even be physically able to do Compulsary #2 form of Wushu. That proves to me, at the very least, that Wushu people are more flexible, stronger and have greater balance.

I used to bash modern Wushu to but then I trained with a few of them(Wushu people that is.) and I was extremely impressed. I dont know what school you went to, but it was not one I have seen.

[This message has been edited by Arioch7 (edited 08-14-2000).]

Brad
08-14-2000, 04:08 AM
Sorry about the bashing. I didn't mean to sound so harsh but most really don't know a thing about modern wushu.

word
08-14-2000, 04:11 AM
Tell me brad. When you do wushu how many punches are in one of your long fist forms? About 4 punches out of the 70 movement form? How many times do you do a block and punch? Not many.

word
08-14-2000, 04:15 AM
Kung Lek,

It was a traditional class. By the description? The stances in wushu are the same as traditional since wushu evolved from traditional kung fu . All of the stances in wusuh I have in my northern shaolin forms. How does a wushu front stance differ from a traditional front stance? It's the same. Chang Chuan is a mixture of many northern shaolin styles .

Brad
08-14-2000, 04:28 AM
Actually the forms learned in the first 2 or three years are almost entirely punching and blocking with little or no running, jumping, or flash. If all you have seen are the flashy longfist sport competition forms, then you are really seeing very little of what modern wushu has to offer. If you like I can try to send video of a beginer form to you. just send your address to bradbauman@worldnet.att.net

word
08-14-2000, 04:54 AM
Wushu does incorporate a few traditional forms in its curriculum. That's maybe the one you learned. I've seen everything wushu has to offer. Have you seen that mid 1970's wushu tape ? Starts off with wushu basics, girl chang chuan, Jet Li doing broadsword etc? That is the best wushu tape. After you have seen that, you can throw away the others.

Brad
08-14-2000, 07:40 AM
Word,

You've really seen all wushu has to offer? I seriously doubt this unless you've spent a number of years with a top level chinese master. Hell, there are college degrees offered in wushu and you claim to have seen everything.
How would you describe traditional wushu and what would make it different(or better) than modern? The only true difference I feel is that modern guys take their wushu to a higher athletic level. Our school currently practices 4 different so called "traditional" longfist forms before graduating to the more advanced competition forms. There are also a large number of fighting techniques and combinations which gennerally don't appear in competition. I've also seen quite a few traditional schools passing these forms off as "Northern Shaolin".
I do agree that those old wushu tapes are the best though. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

word
08-14-2000, 02:01 PM
A form can be traditional or it can be wushu. There is no middle ground. I've seen the old wushu tapes, the beijing wushu team from the 70's, 80's and today. I've seen today's wushu tournaments in China and the US. The only ones I like are the ones from the old days.

Brad
08-15-2000, 12:24 AM
You still haven't answeared my question. How do you tell modern from traditional?

Kung Lek
08-15-2000, 12:48 AM
Hi-

The difference between modern and traditional Wu Shu is quite apparent to a martial artist, particularly a Kung Fu student who has been at it for a while.

I'm not bashing contemporary Wu Shu, it has its place. But it's place is in the competitive standardized arena and not on the street.

The stances are longer than traditional and they are NOT the same as traditional stances wherein the knee is NOT locked.

The limbs in contemporary Wu Shu are Hyper extended. This is never the case in traditional Kung Fu.

The contemporary Wu Shu artist will use momentum from a short run before launching a kick, a traditionalist will do his kicks from a dead stop and get the hight, speed and force required to be martially applicable.

There are plenty of differences.
Pan Qing Fu is both a traditional artist and a contemporary Wu Shu teacher.

Shaolin Temple offers both also. Contemporary Wu Shu is the National sport of China beating out the former Ping Pong.
For so long Genuine Martial arts were forbidden in china and the incorporation of the authentic styles is really quite recent.

Contemporary Wu Shu is athleticism at a high level with a martial flavour. There is much within it that the practitioner would be remiss in trying in a real combat situation.
There is an overabundance of wasted motion in contemporary wu shu and plenty of technically wrong things about it in a martial application sense.

It (CWS)is an excellent practice for flexibility, stamina, cv work and plain old endurance.

Traditional is the way to go if you want to use your art as it was intended to be used, as a fighting art.

I have seen and experienced both and have appreciation for both. But I know as well as most of the teachers out there know that CWS is NOT for the streets and traditional will never beat contemporary in a demonstration.
it just ain't flashy enough.

As for Northern Shaolin, NS is Traditional but much of contemporary Wu Shu has indeed been passed off as North Shaolin to the unknowing and uneducated in the field.

So Much so that to the beginner, the lines have become so blurred and there is so much questionable teaching going on out there that it has come to the point where there are a great number of masters of traditional arts forming associations and what not in the west to put a stop to these very misconceptions.

by the way, the wu shu of the seventies is different in makeup from the wu shu of now.
In the seventies the wu shu that was made up had much more applicable stuff in it than the current stuff.
The compulsory forms of the Wu Shu of today are very different from the 70's styles which mimic traditional Kung fu but clearly display incorrect kinesiological principles and poor body mechanics when it comes to martial application.

There are plenty of Kung fu teachers who are well aware of the differences and there are also plenty of teachers who will offer both to their students. The knowledgeable teachers will explain the whys and hows of the differences and will let the students know that if they want to win a forms tournament they will need to use the wu shu but if they want to stand ground in a fight they will use traditional.


peace

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Kung Lek

Brad
08-15-2000, 01:59 AM
I honestly can't think of a decent argument at the moment. I had a serious knee injury over the weekend and the painkillers are starting to kick in /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Anyone else want to give it a shot? I can't be the only modern wushu guy here. I do have a couple things to say though:
1.1st a correction I have a correction. You stated that modernists use a short run before throwing a kick. They actually train almost all kicks (including jump kicks) from a dead stop in order to build up strength.
And modern wushu does not = competitive longfist. And yes the longfist compulsory form does suck, hopefully the new one will be better.

2.I'm know I can defend myself as well as most traditionalists with equal experience. Maybe I'm really practicing traditionaly and don't even know it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

3.Everything I ever say about modern wushu training comes from my experiences with my school and the Beijing team which I know trains a lot differntly than other schools here in the US.

GLW
08-15-2000, 04:26 AM
Some definite misconceptions here:

"The stances are longer than traditional and they are NOT the same as traditional stances wherein the knee is NOT locked."

I am not sure what you are referring to about the knee but I can tell you that the stances in the Contemporary Wushu forms are identical to those in the Zha Quan system (Islamic Long fist). If you can find a book in Chinese called Wang Ziping and Wushu, check it out. It is about Grandmaster Wang who was one of the founding teachers at the Nanjing Central Martial Arts Institute. About as traditional northern as you can get.


"The limbs in contemporary Wu Shu are Hyper extended. This is never the case in traditional Kung Fu."

Again, this is a hallmark of northern LONG FIST. Most do not extend enough. You train extended to build the tendons and the whipping of all of the body out to a single point of impact. when you use it, it will naturally shorten. Now, if you are saying they are out of balance, then they are doing it wrong...regardless of being Contemporary or Traditional.


"The contemporary Wu Shu artist will use momentum from a short run before launching a kick, a traditionalist will do his kicks from a dead stop and get the hight, speed and force required to be martially applicable."

Not entirely true. The Contemporary Wushu forms DO use some of the running methods. Traditional has these as well but not as often. However, what is in the routines is not the only thing that is trained. In fact, the jumping methods you describe are the bread and butter of any good Wushu class training - Contemporary or Traditional.

The reason for the modern routines was to create a venue that would allow competition without bickering. There is a set way to do it and a set way to score it. Traditional is allowed in the Open divisions and the Contemproary people do very well.

"Contemporary Wu Shu is athleticism at a high level with a martial flavour. There is much within it that the practitioner would be remiss in trying in a real combat situation."

And this does not apply to some techniques in Traditional. Techniques have many reasons for being done, reaction, balance, stamina, art, etc... and this applies to both. Unfortunatley, applications is a separate area of training. If you do Traditional Wushu and no one ever teaches you what it is for and you never work with a partner, guess what you would end up saying about it...

"There is an overabundance of wasted motion in contemporary wu shu and plenty of technically wrong things about it in a martial application sense."

This applies to both. There are alos many techniques in both that are ill advised and will lead to overall damage to the joints over time or to injury.

Big question for you though...how long have you done both?

"I have seen and experienced both and have appreciation for both. But I know as well as most of the teachers out there know that CWS is NOT for the streets and traditional will never beat contemporary in a demonstration.
it just ain't flashy enough."

Check out the Zha Quan system. Plenty flashy. It depends upon the person. Southern is not too flashy but northern can get downright amazing. You are buying into a fallacy from limited experience. Check out people like Liang Shouyu doing White Ape.

"As for Northern Shaolin, NS is Traditional but much of contemporary Wu Shu has indeed been passed off as North Shaolin to the unknowing and uneducated in the field."

Not all northern is Shaolin...Zha Quan is not Shaolin....and traditional people do not usually know the extent of their styles. For example, would your recognize Fanzi Quan, Ying Jow Quan, Pao Quan vs. Hua Quan, etc...

"So Much so that to the beginner, the lines have become so blurred and there is so much questionable teaching going on out there that it has come to the point where there are a great number of masters of traditional arts forming associations and what not in the west to put a stop to these very misconceptions."

Actually, the bad teaching and frauds have been there all along. It is just that CMA are becoming more available. It is endemic to all martial arts that there are fakes and cheats. We all do a poor job policing ourselves. Then, if the government tries to police us, they do with no knowledge and so they do it badly too.

"by the way, the wu shu of the seventies is different in makeup from the wu shu of now.
In the seventies the wu shu that was made up had much more applicable stuff in it than the current stuff.
The compulsory forms of the Wu Shu of today are very different from the 70's styles which mimic traditional Kung fu but clearly display incorrect kinesiological principles and poor body mechanics when it comes to martial application."

Actually you have a big point here. The level of athlete in China has improved to the point they take risks to get that edge. The Beijing contingent tends to go down that path. Those from Shanghai tend to be more traditional and avoid the type of stuff you are describing. In fact, in one competition in Shanghai a year or so ago, the Shanghai coaches were discussing the non-martial flavor of the proposed additions into the new routines and that they did NOT like or accept them. The pendulum seems to be swinging back to more tradtional methods, though.

"There are plenty of Kung fu teachers who are well aware of the differences and there are also plenty of teachers who will offer both to their students. The knowledgeable teachers will explain the whys and hows of the differences and will let the students know that if they want to win a forms tournament they will need to use the wu shu but if they want to stand ground in a fight they will use traditional."

Not a traditional vs. contemporary issue...just an issue of good vs. bad teachers.