Karate Assault!

[StickyHands]

With all this verbal bashing and biased criticizing upon Karate, do you guys really think that Karate is inferior (with exclusion of McDojos) in anyway compared to Kung Fu? That a good Karate-ka and his style (with plenty of throwing and grabbing) has no chance against a good Kung Fu practitioner of a certain style; another words, if they are both good, then it should depend on the style, their technique, principles, etc, etc aka kung fu?

[Surferdude]

I can beat up people who practice kung-fu!!!:D
then again i've only fought 1 person in my school.....and he sucks:D
But seriuosly if you have a good karate student and a good kung-fu person go at it, it would be a good fight

[Royal Dragon]

Pure Karate, against pure Kung Fu, both 9 years experiance (Same hours), Kung Fu wins becaue is contains all ranges of combat (Yes, even groundfighting, although it's mostly like brutal full weighted knee drops on people's necks and such, but it is there). Karate on the other hand only does kicks and blocks and punches.

Now, if the Karate guy has crosse trained in Judo, Akido and such things, he has full range training too, and the only advantage the Kung Fu guy has is superior more well rounded conditioning and more fluid and mobile movements. In this case, the winner is most likely going to be the one with the most fighting experiance. If the fighting experiance is even, I'll bet on the better conditioned, more fluid and mobile Kung Fu guy. However, if the greater fighting experiance is had by the Karate guy, my money's on him, so long as he's cross trained in comperable grapeling and throwing arts that are inherently, already contained in all Kung Fu styles.

[Vash]

"Karate . . . only does kicks and blocks and punches."
Since when?

For as long as I've been learning karate (caw-raw-tea), I've seen kata (forms) which present grappling, trapping, clinch fighting, the works. yes, karate (car-ah-tey) is lacking the more athletic techniques present in many Kung Fu forms, but does this weigh that heavily if the karate student is athletic otherwise (weight training, cardiovascular training, et al)?

So, who wins? All things being equal . . . the better fighter ;)

[StickyHands]

Ummm ur kinda wrong there, the "pure" Karate that kept its elements like good Shorin Ryu or Goju schools, have all the good throws and locks, however nowadays, most McDojo schools and such would only focus on kicks and punches

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Pure Karate, against pure Kung Fu, both 9 years experiance (Same hours), Kung Fu wins becaue is contains all ranges of combat (Yes, even groundfighting, although it's mostly like brutal full weighted knee drops on people's necks and such, but it is there). Karate on the other hand only does kicks and blocks and punches.

Now, if the Karate guy has crosse trained in Judo, Akido and such things, he has full range training too, and the only advantage the Kung Fu guy has is superior more well rounded conditioning and more fluid and mobile movements. In this case, the winner is most likely going to be the one with the most fighting experiance. If the fighting experiance is even, I'll bet on the better conditioned, more fluid and mobile Kung Fu guy. However, if the greater fighting experiance is had by the Karate guy, my money's on him, so long as he's cross trained in comperable grapeling and throwing arts that are inherently, already contained in all Kung Fu styles.

you know that's BS, right?

[StickyHands]

which part? lol.

[SevenStar]

pretty much all of it.

1. karate does feature more than kicks, blocks and punches

2. good karate is quite fluid.

3. even though the kung fu guy trains all those ranges, how adept is he in them? Just because you know a technique doesn't mean you'll fight with it. I have learned willow palm strikes, various clawing strikes, etc. Have I ever fought with them? No. Why? because I don't use them when I spar. No matter how many techniques a style has, the practitioner is likely to only use the core set of techniques that he prefers and uses on a regular basis.

4.You can't really make the assumption that the kung fu guy is better conditioned.

5. the whole cma groundfighting thing...

[StickyHands]

another reason why karate probably has a bed rep because it doesnt have much media exposure like kung fu films do. now if karate was choreographed to be in an MA movie, i think people would suddenly consider it very effective again like they did when it first came to US.

[SevenStar]

Nah, MA in the movies has been bad for EVERYBODY. With the exception of "The Bourne Identity", which had AWESOME choreography, I haven't seen anything really representative of what a MA style is really about. All of the flash and wires make s the art look bad. People go to schools expecting to learn that stuff, thusly increasing the demand for McSchools.

[StickyHands]

ya but think about it, this causes more commercilization for kung fu schools, most people would think oh cool, i wanna do this and that, so kung fu is the way to go. the rest who pick karate is school is because either it's near where they live, kung fu seems complicated, or they are skeptic about pulling that stunt they saw on kung fu movie, or simply they think hmmm id like to practice kicking more, or simply because karate is such a common word and that their friends are in there too, etc. But it's the media attention which kung fu enjoys more, and hence those techniques of the movie seem to defeat the bad guy are lot more effective than a karate chop.

I mean overall, it's the children's fascination that makes the "cha-ching" for pseudo-masters.

[Former castleva]

RD really dropped the ball on this one.

Anyway,it´s all the same hypothetical song with little relevance.
I don´t see how one would have an advantage over other,to add something to this.

[ZIM]

Gee, I don't know.

BK Frantzis was writing about this, though i don't know how good info that is. He wrote that he was a 3rd dan BB in shorin, with judo exp. when he ran into some chinese internal masters. Now, these were masters, so again that might be unfair, who knows.

He was getting his butt kicked by ba gua stylists, even students and much older ones at that. The master just got bored of it all- he could circle him and touch him at will.

Apparently, the same kind of thing happened with hsingyi stylists as well, so...who knows. One case doesn't prove it, and he was writing a book on CMAs so he wouldn't say "well, karate's better, but..."

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by StickyHands
ya but think about it, this causes more commercilization for kung fu schools, most people would think oh cool, i wanna do this and that, so kung fu is the way to go. the rest who pick karate is school is because either it's near where they live, kung fu seems complicated, or they are skeptic about pulling that stunt they saw on kung fu movie, or simply they think hmmm id like to practice kicking more, or simply because karate is such a common word and that their friends are in there too, etc. But it's the media attention which kung fu enjoys more, and hence those techniques of the movie seem to defeat the bad guy are lot more effective than a karate chop.

I mean overall, it's the children's fascination that makes the "cha-ching" for pseudo-masters.

That's exactly my point. All of that leads to McKwooning.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ZIM
Gee, I don't know.

BK Frantzis was writing about this, though i don't know how good info that is. He wrote that he was a 3rd dan BB in shorin, with judo exp. when he ran into some chinese internal masters. Now, these were masters, so again that might be unfair, who knows.

He was getting his butt kicked by ba gua stylists, even students and much older ones at that. The master just got bored of it all- he could circle him and touch him at will.

Apparently, the same kind of thing happened with hsingyi stylists as well, so...who knows. One case doesn't prove it, and he was writing a book on CMAs so he wouldn't say "well, karate's better, but..."

This is probably where the experience and training methods cards come into play.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by ZIM
Gee, I don't know.

BK Frantzis was writing about this, though i don't know how good info that is. He wrote that he was a 3rd dan BB in shorin, with judo exp. when he ran into some chinese internal masters. Now, these were masters, so again that might be unfair, who knows.

He was getting his butt kicked by ba gua stylists, even students and much older ones at that. The master just got bored of it all- he could circle him and touch him at will.

Apparently, the same kind of thing happened with hsingyi stylists as well, so...who knows. One case doesn't prove it, and he was writing a book on CMAs so he wouldn't say "well, karate's better, but..."

when u play with rhetorics such as instructors against a master, the whole ball games changes. i mean an old traditional CMA INTERNAL master who knows his (pardon the french - sh!tz), obviously even 20 years experienced kung fu (externalist) guy would be wiped on the floor.

[Shuul Vis]

From my experience, little separates GOOD and AUTHENTIC karate, not the mcdojo junk, from certain styles of kung fu. It incorporates many of the same principles and techniques as kung fu including striking with all the parts of the body, throws, joint manipulations, grappling and chi gung. Of course there are differences in how certain aspects are performed, but we are talking about 2 totally different cultures here, the Japanese and the Chinese.

The most glaring difference to me is that karate tends towards one hit kills. They train for powerful, fight ending strikes or throws. They condition thier arms and hands to become very effective weapons not only for offense, but defense as well. Karate's forceful blocks destroy the attacker's limbs paving the road for thier devastating attacks.

Karate gets a bad rep i think because it appears elementary. It is simple and direct. Understand, techniques like the classic chambered, reverse punch to the chest were designed to penetrate samurai armor. Being without armor themselves gave them the mobility and time in comparison to their enemies to consider chambered attacks with proper rotation as thier main form of power generation.

Is this as effective in modern times where people are not generally encountered in armor? I think yes but it needs slight modifications. Thier attacks, since we arent prancing around in armor anymore, would be partially telegraphed and easier to avoid. However, those same attacks would probably kill you or at least put you down since we arent wearing the protection that didnt even aid the samurai. In my conclusion, karate is superbly effective when taught and trained as it was intended. But you will rarely find the man who walks that path.

[ZIM]

I agree with, intellectually speaking, both responses- yes, training and experience count, and internal versus external counts, too.

But here's the thing: he says he was 20-ish, 3rd dan shorin, judo trained. He'd seen and trained with wing chun, TCC, a little external kung fu- so he couldn't be totally off guard, you'd think. And, he was doing a lot of tournaments- back in the late 60's, early 70's- you know, the old stuff. At the time, he was in okinawa or somewhere learning advanced stuff.

So: he goes to the 60+ year old ba gua guy, he tells him: "karate is good for beating up old ladies and kids." Then he shows him a little ba gua by slapping him around, then he has him fight... old ladies and kids. They were ba gua students of maybe 2-3 years. They kicked his butt, he says. :p Now, I'm NOT saying that proves anything, cuz i still think the man counts for more. It only proved something to HIM.

FYI: info comes from "power of internal martial arts", BK Frantzis.

EDIT: thats kind of a common attitude with internalists, though, that 'we are doing high-level stuff, you are not'.

[Surferdude]

Wait a minute, Karate is pretty fluid, and has ground work. Not as much as kung-fu or judo but, theres one thing that seperates good authentic karate and McDojo sh*t. Can anyone guess?:D

[ZIM]

no kids classes.

Hey this is cool! on another mailing list, i just got a link to the ba gua guy he referred to- some clips if you want to see them (http://taichi-chuan.com/eng/news_main3.html). I have not, as of yet.

[Royal Dragon]

The number of Kids classes, Cardio Karate, and hotties in sports bra's punching air, wile wearing boxing gloves?

[StickyHands]

u lost me there surferdude. lol. wait, that guy got his butt kicked by kids and granmas with only 2 or 3 years of bagua training... am i hearing right? are u sure this mr. BK knew HIS stuff at all? i mean in bagua, doesnt take at least 2 years to get the postures, alignments, circle walking correct, and all the prerequisite trainings before learning how to fight fully? are u sure he's not one of those converted bagua practitioner with little bit other MA training bad-mouthing everything else? and who was this awesome CMA master anyway?

[ZIM]

sticky-

no, i don't know that. I've been saying that all along- i don't know if BK was any good, and have never met the man. I do hear there's some controversy about him, but I try not to get involved in p1ssing matches... the guy referred to is linked above, which i did on edit. the students trained hard, is what i gathered- but you may indeed be right.

[StickyHands]

As I can recall, isnt Karate really a refined mix of Okinawa Te and Shaolin kung fu forms? They modified and discarded to their combat needs in katas accordance with the feudal times? In fact even some of the Chen Tai Chi forms (which isnt Shaolin) and Baji forms resembles some of the katas in Karate like Shorin Ryu, ie. kata pinan. The term Shorin means Shaolin in Japanese. Wasn't Mas Oyama, founder of Kyokushinkai got his ass kicked by Chen Fake, old master of Chen Tai Chi, but later after figuring out few principles of Tai Chi added to his Karate, kicked Chen Fake's best student's ass?

Ya ZIM I know what you meant, but making a referrence of something like that still adds to convolution we have against karate. I mean same could be said in order to make karate seem supreme. I even read somewhere that there was an old CMA master who taught these beautiful wushu fighting to his students. But later someone caught him practicing Okinawan Karate. So the person asked, what's this? He blunty replies, when I wanna look pretty, I teach kung fu, but when I wanna learn combat, I practice Karate. So same sort of myths, true or not, are passed around everywhere for every styles.

[count]

Most people will agree that there is a big difference between 1st and 3rd dan in any system. Kumar was already a kick ass fighter and had the balls to put it on the line with anyone. He challanged well know masters to test his own knowledge and find teachers that could take him to the highest levels. What he learned was how efficient bagua methods are compared to more linear fighting methods. what he built on was an already solid foundation from fighting experience. Regardless of controversy, BK has the experience to back up and demonstrate his claims.

No he is not my teacher. :p

[Surferdude]

Hahaha yes no kids classes but, the real authentic karate strikes.
A karate lunge punch (oizuki) can knock someone out eaisly. In a fight a couple of strikes and the opponent who be hurtin bad

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by count
Most people will agree that there is a big difference between 1st and 3rd dan in any system. Kumar was already a kick ass fighter and had the balls to put it on the line with anyone. He challanged well know masters to test his own knowledge and find teachers that could take him to the highest levels. What he learned was how efficient bagua methods are compared to more linear fighting methods. what he built on was an already solid foundation from fighting experience. Regardless of controversy, BK has the experience to back up and demonstrate his claims.

No he is not my teacher. :p

But kids and granmas with 2 years of experience of bagua wiping the floor with Mr. BK's "substantial experience" a bit hard to believe that he didnt even have the rudiment form of defense.

[chen zhen]

Is "hurting" enough..?

What is the lounge punch? is it the same as the reverse punch?

[count]

Originally posted by StickyHands
But kids and granmas with 2 years of experience of bagua wiping the floor with Mr. BK's "substantial experience" a bit hard to believe that he didnt even have the rudiment form of defense.

Well that wasn't my point, but yes! :D

[StickyHands]

I think what we need is Mr. Miyagi-san from the Karate Kid to teach us good karate. lol :D

ZIM, I only see the Taiji and Xingyi clips, no Bagua.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by count


Well that wasn't my point, but yes! :D

I was referring to ZIM's posts where he said even kids and grandmas had the upper hand against BK Frantzis.

[ZIM]

I'll get the book and clear it up. wait a bit, brb.

page 16+, Power of Internal Martial Arts, BK Frantzis:

"I was 19 then, a recognized young karate champion.....Wang [Shu Jin] did not hestitate to express his low regard for karate, telling me...'only good for fighting old women and children'. "

"...I was forced to swallow my indignation though. In our....sparring, Wang thoroughly defeated me on every occassion, tapping me lightly at will allover my body to demonstrate his easy circumvention of my defenses. Despite my best efforts and despite Wang's enormous girth, his ba gua chang enabled himn to effortlessly evade all my blows and end up behind me at will."

"His students were formidable fighters themselves....When I started studying...several of his students, from 15-70 years of age, beat the stuffing out of me. Men and women both were able to hit me with no pulling of my punches....some of the older people had been with Wang for just a few years. They trounced me so much that first day, I felt like quitting.....Many of Wang's students started late in life. [O]ne of Wang's specialties was taking on people in their 50's and 60's who had all sorts of physical problems and making them healthy and strong."

[StickyHands]

Uh you dont have to go through the hassle, I know what you meant. But every time I hear a kid beating up an older guy cuz of their respective styles, I simply grin.

[count]

Originally posted by StickyHands


I was referring to ZIM's posts where he said even kids and grandmas had the upper hand against BK Frantzis.
Than why did you quote my post :confused:
Those clips of Wang Shu Jin are awesome. They don't show his bagua but still show an amazing degree of internal contectivness.

[Former castleva]

Ahhh.It´s enlightening when anecdotes to the direction of "But mr.Blow Joe could not handle this demented master...".
Nothing wrong with those anecdotes itself but if they are represented with the common LOGICAL FALLACY of "Yay,since it is not 100% watertight it seems,I can discard it".
:)

[ZIM]

I DO realize this adds fuel to a fire. It is NOT an argument that I like- i don't dump on any MAs. I'm offering this as info and a POV only. Karate is NOT a bad art, not in the least, IMHO


Ahhh.It´s enlightening when anecdotes to the direction of "But mr.Blow Joe could not handle this demented master...". Heheh. Thats how i met my master! we were on a road trip to a tournament, right? we ran out of gas...pull into a gas station, middle of nowhere, and this white trashy guy comes out, blue tick hound, straw hat, bib coveralls with grease, all of that.

So, he starts makeing fun of our silk pajamas, and my master sez, 'yeh? i'll take you out' and the white trashy guy pulls out a crowbar and shows us his smashing techniques.

long story short: no more silk jammies for me. bib coveralls, now, and studying under Cletus the Sifu. Don't you come a-knockin', revenoor....:D :D :D

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by count

Than why did you quote my post :confused:
Those clips of Wang Shu Jin are awesome. They don't show his bagua but still show an amazing degree of internal contectivness.

Because we were talking about the same guy right, I think, Mr. BK? Im trying to figure out the fallacy here, but anywho.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by ZIM
I'll get the book and clear it up. wait a bit, brb.

page 16+, Power of Internal Martial Arts, BK Frantzis:

"I was 19 then, a recognized young karate champion.....Wang [Shu Jin] did not hestitate to express his low regard for karate, telling me...'only good for fighting old women and children'. "

"...I was forced to swallow my indignation though. In our....sparring, Wang thoroughly defeated me on every occassion, tapping me lightly at will allover my body to demonstrate his easy circumvention of my defenses. Despite my best efforts and despite Wang's enormous girth, his ba gua chang enabled himn to effortlessly evade all my blows and end up behind me at will."

"His students were formidable fighters themselves....When I started studying...several of his students, from 15-70 years of age, beat the stuffing out of me. Men and women both were able to hit me with no pulling of my punches....some of the older people had been with Wang for just a few years. They trounced me so much that first day, I felt like quitting.....Many of Wang's students started late in life. [O]ne of Wang's specialties was taking on people in their 50's and 60's who had all sorts of physical problems and making them healthy and strong."

Mr. ZIM, LOL. There you go, the "kid" was 19, and he already thought of himself he was THAT good, wow, what an undisputable ego, yet, for how long? And I still question the statement "Wang [Shu Jin] did not hestitate to express his low regard for karate, telling me...'only good for fighting old women and children'. " whether that was his own words or of the master, Im not sure. If it was of the master, then I have no respect for him. If it was his own words, then my preconception that he was self-biased bagua convert becomes true. And again he was 19, and he thought he conquered the world that he felt aged and needed to test skills against a master? And the kids he sparred again, 15 and up, seems close to his age, im not sure about 70, lol. But I dont exactly see anywhere about the numbers of years of experience his students had. If you acutally read this article of his, the manner which he expresses is actually preaching on the favor of bagua. He doesnt seem like an unbiased journalist or a man who got his ass kicked. But rather, "promoting" bagua? And when you promote something, wouldnt you love to throw a fex exaggerations here and there? To quote his skills in MA, what else can I say abot his real qualification than quote him "several of his students, from 15-70 years of age, beat the stuffing out of me."

This was without a doubt, an amusing article. :p

[ZIM]

Man, I thought i was being careful to point out all of my own reservations on that anecdote. What can i say? it just is, thats all- i thought it might further the discussion, and it seems to have done so. no worries.

[StickyHands]

Yup :D . I wouldnt pay much attention to it.

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by chen zhen
Is "hurting" enough..?

What is the lounge punch? is it the same as the reverse punch?

Hurting as if you wanna fall down and puke, or something that you'd do in extreme pain.

If you look at the link i posted in the ora forum, look at Heian Shodan, after the downward block he steps and punches at the same time, thats a lunge punch.
Heres the link again.Here (http://ase.tufts.edu/karate/katavideos.html)

[chen zhen]

OK, thanks Surferdude-San;)

[David Jamieson]

At the apex, you cannot tell the difference in skill of the karate fighteror the kungfu fighter. They are the same.

The external stuff is not where "art" shines through, it is in the intent and determination of the practitioner to "do" their art.

I personally have seen more case of Karate pracs being superior to Kungfu pracs. This is probably because the Karate practitioners are far more numerous.

There is still a lot about Chinese martial arts that is guarded, but the same can be said for high levels of Karate. You would be surprised. It is also likely that yer average KF prac would see some of the Okinawan styles and would not be able to tell the difference between those and Kungfu.

It is also likely that your average Kyukoshinkai guy would drop your average kf prac pretty quick because of the inherentr differences in how they train.

Most Kf schools are not hardcore and quite a lot of them are "health" instead of "whole" in their offerings.

I really don't think that the state of things these days shows that Kungfu is any better than anything else really. It is better than not practicing anything at all though, or a half arsed approach to practice which a vast majority have.

cheers

[StickyHands]

I think this post of yours might open up a can of worms if hardcome KF guys were to see this. lol. Im guessing they are not here cuz it's sunday.

[SevenStar]

Good post, KL

[David Jamieson]

sticky -

I am a hardcore Kf person.
Though I am a private practitioner, it is the methodology of martial practice that I personally prefer.
I have also studied Karate and Taekwondo, amongst others in the last 27 or so trips around the sun.

It is my perspective that these types of statements are generally the musings of peeps who have been at it for less than five years.

I find that the range of techniques and exercises that are offered in Chinese martial arts has much depth and breadth. But the achievable results in a human being is different entirely than what the system they study has to offer. Ergo, I do not see the offerings as being any better than other systems based mainly on how it manifests itself.

cheers

[StickyHands]

Agreed

[Losttrak]

I am a die-hard KF guy and I went to this tournament in Shreveport once... The guy who won Grandchampion was a VERY sharp karate fighter. He was crisp and meant business when he moved. His reverse punch was like a frikkin rocket and he never missed with it. I had alot of respect for his spirit. Very intense. So I guess in his case karate would be quite effective.

[fidon]

Yeah, well if i had to choose form Karate or TaeKwonDo, then i'd probably choose Karate...but i dont have to choose, cos KungFu rules them both :)

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by Losttrak
His reverse punch was like a frikkin rocket and he never missed with it. I had alot of respect for his spirit. Very intense. So I guess in his case karate would be quite effective.
See what i mean?:D thats only a reverse punch!!!:D :eek: :p

[fa_jing]

"Understand, techniques like the classic chambered, reverse punch to the chest were designed to penetrate samurai armor. Being without armor themselves gave them the mobility and time in comparison to their enemies to consider chambered attacks with proper rotation as thier main form of power generation. "

I'm calling BS on that one. If the Samurai was armored, wouldn't he have a sword as well? And if the Karate-stylist was not armed (empty-hand strike) would he not get sliced up fast? I can just see the Sensei teaching this punch "oh yes, master so-and-so successfully used this punch in the street, against an armed and armored Samurai. He only lost one nut in the engagement"

I'm putting this in the same class as "Taekwon Do jumping kicks were used to knock horsemen off of their saddles"

[Shaolin-Do]

They were! From the tops of buildings 40 feet away!

I only have 30 minutes till I have to go back to work. Time to start smoking.
Peace!
:)

Actually, Ive read some very good things about real karate. (shotokan for the most part) Id like a book on it... but all Karate books I have found are crap. I have books on all kinds of MA... gives you insight to their methodology.

[Golden Arms]

My aikido gym shared space with a high dan (7 or 8) Karate guy. He to date is still one of the top 5 scariest people I have ever seen move..He made Silva look like a chump. Plus..on the nights when his students would not show up for class..he would sit in the horse stance facing a huge support beam in the center of the room and just hit it for an hour before he did his forms. This guy seriously mowed over people like a semi truck, and he was around 55 or so. Also, just as fluid, smart about stances, and able to issue power as my current sifu, and better than many other kung fu practitioners I have seen. I will always respect karate because of that sensei, and Mas Oyama...He was a beast too.

[Black Jack]

Good post KL.

Good karate-jutsu is wicked nasty.

I don't know if the last post by RD was goofing around....I hope so....but it is and always has been about the man and not the system.

[ewallace]

Oh Wow! Sevenstar just punked Royal Dragon on KFO...again.

[Surferdude]

Fa_jing: If a samurai had armor on,It doesnt always mean he had a sword. In some places the samurai couldn't have his sword with him, or maybe he just wasn't quick as the karate-ka who attacked him, Samurai weren't always chivilrous knights, they would sometimes be outright bullies.
But those karate attacks can do some real damage.

Shaolin-Do: A good book is "Secrets of Shotokan Karate" my sensei wrote it has like 5 or 7 kata in it and history of ancient fuedal Japan.

[Vapour]

Hmmm, two words.

Kyokushin karate.

[Laughing Cow]

Fa-Jing.

Don't give into the hype that okinawan MA were used/developed by the peasants, proof exists plenty that the practicioners were upper middle-class and above.

Your average peasant did not have strength, energy, time or desire to take away from their work and risk being kicked of their farms, plus their landlords also protected them from invaders and robbers.

If you ever see Samurai armour you will see that they are VERY tough.
Foot Soldiers used 3~5 meter spears to poke into cracks of that armor to wound a Samurai. Any closer range and they were chopped into little cubes.

Those words are 1 1/2 hand, meaning they can be used with one-hand or two, actually one hand guides the other provides the power.

Cheers.