Fan Yu Tung Stance's Mainland & Hong Kong 7* Mantis.....

[RAYNYSC]

I'm sure that everyone here will have an opinion on this....
Now I haven't done any extensive research on this topic so for all I know it may have been discussed already?.... Anyhow here go's

Why is it that as far as I can see when ever it come's to Fan Yu Tung & his descendants on the Mainland the question of whether or not they ever made any changes themselves never come's up?....

Having said this, it seems to me that it is accepted that Mainland Mantis,as it was passed down by Fan Yuk Tung has not been altered. The problem I'm having here is with the issue of stances.

We all know that HK Mantis stances are usually higher.
Mainland Mantis stances are much lower to the ground & the arm movements are bigger & wider. Yeah I know we went over this already on the last thread but I'm trying to make a point here....

Let's reason here for a moment. In any bio we read about FYT it states that he was a very big man. In some cases it is said that he weighed over 300 lbs. he was known as " Giant Fan "....
Now if FYT was in fact this big then it is highly unlikely that he would have moved around the way you see the Mainland people do today. I'm not saying that he couldn't do it but how practical would it have been for him to do so?.....

I would be more inclined to think that FYT's stances would have been more like LKY's. I really don't think that FYT's footwork would have been as springy or lively as what you see on the Mainland. In this respect, I don't think LKY made too many changes. With the exception of some minor adjustments. I think LKY kept it true to the way FYT taught it. I'm not trying to discredit Mainland Mantis in anyway. I would just like to clarify somethings in my own head so don't take this the wrong way.

PEACE:D

[Skarbromantis]

Good point.

Skard1

[mantis_seeker]

Wasn't LGY also a bigger guy?

[B.Tunks]

As far as LGY and his stances, he certainly did go low as did many of his disciples, of course not always.
Interesting and little known point Luo had a mildly crippled foot which did affect the way he moved in certain postures (though certainly not the way he taught). In my opinion Luo did not teach 'high' stances. I dont believe his written works teach this either (I dont mind correction on this). Many people base their belief on this on the basis of Luo's widely displayed, catching cicada photo.

As far as Fan and his size; there are plenty of 100 kilo plus Tanglang practitioners in China. I have a student who is 165 kilos and has very solid, very low stances and is highly mobile.
Of course the way Fan Xudong and the much smaller Lin Jingshan moved was different, each person moves with their own flavour (though within the framework of the system). Also Luo was no small guy, Yang Weixin was even bigger again and also pushed the low stepping method.
Tanglang contains both high and low frames.

Another important point, stances get higher with age. It is an accepted and expected development. The centre of gravity (and the Dan Tian) is lowered by years of hard work and the same effect is achieved at a more relaxed level.

If you are practicing Hong Kong Tanglang then practice it as you are taught, it is not wrong just different. The same goes for mainland (by the way there are high frame practitioners there too, just as there are low frame practitioners in Hong Kong, Taiwan, South East Asia and the rest of the world).
I dont think there is a wrong and right with this one, just different perspectives.
b.t

[B.Tunks]

Also;

Why is it that as far as I can see when ever it come's to Fan Yu Tung & his descendants on the Mainland the question of whether or not they ever made any changes themselves never come's up?....

It does and the answer has to be, of course there are some.

Having said this, it seems to me that it is accepted that Mainland Mantis,as it was passed down by Fan Yuk Tung has not been altered. The problem I'm having here is with the issue of stances.

Which descendants of Fan Xudong are you having an issue with the stances of?

Lin Jinghshan's?
Yang Weixin's?
Guo Jialu's?

Are you judging this from photos or witnessing first-hand, the Tanglang being played? Whose students are they? This will help narrow it down.

I have to admit that there certainly is a lot of cross pollinated bogus Tanglang with over exaggerated stances and movements that comes out of mainland China, but I cant really say that with the Qixing I have seen (regardless of bias). Anything such as ban ma bu or si liu bu with the rear knee touching the ground, yuhuan bu with the legs so far spread the knees are ridiculously seperated (therefore unapplicable for waist cutting) or empty or bow step with the support thigh breaking parralell is not classic Qixing Tanglang, in any country!

[mantisben]

Originally posted by RAYNYSC
...Now if FYT was in fact this big then it is highly unlikely that he would have moved around the way you see the Mainland people do today. I'm not saying that he couldn't do it but how practical would it have been for him to do so?.....

I would be more inclined to think that FYT's stances would have been more like LKY's. I really don't think that FYT's footwork would have been as springy or lively as what you see on the Mainland.

PEACE:D FYT didn't move in the same way you would see ANY 300 lbs. person move today. He was unique, in that he was a 300 lbs. GM of Praying Mantis, and he was no doubt worthy of the title. Not because of Geneology, or because he was related to some other GM of Praying Mantis, but because he was WORTHY of the title. He was 300 lbs., but his TECHNIQUE and SKILL was what made him worthy of being called "Grandmaster". Don't confuse FYT with the average 300 lbs. slugger.

As for low stances, in general, if you can move springy and lively in a low stance, you will move MUCH MORE lively and springy when your stances have to be much higher as in combat.

I don't know much about FYT, but I know enough not to compare him with the AVERAGE 300 lbs. slugger. Don't you think he was challenged by some well-carved up fighter saying " FYT, you're too big and [possibly] fat to be a good fighter. I challenge you.". And then they get knocked the F*#K out by FYT speed and power. Then, they, and all those who bear witness, RESPECT the GIANT and his technique. And in time, they dubbed him "Grand Master Fan Hsu Tung".

Those Wushu PM practicioners who move in and out of those low stances quicky and with ease, already have all the attributes to be great fighters. If they work on fighting application (I'm sure some of them do), and not so much the performance before the judges, they would be untouchable by the average Kung-Fu fighter.

Don't judge PM fighters by how they do their forms. In fact, don't judge ANY Martial Artist by how they do their forms. In fact, some excellent fighters don't even DO forms (I'm thinking of Tito Ortiz, Mike Tyson, and Mohammad Ali).

Respectfully,

Mantisben...

[B.Tunks]

Mantisben,

I hear ya!
b.t

[B.Tunks]

In the spirit of not taking this the wrong way;
a definite change added by a descendant of Fan Xudong, Zhong Lianbao has altered the hook stance considerably.
b.t

[mantis_seeker]

Brandan,

Is the hook stance what I would call a sevenstar stance in HK lingo? If so is the stance you mention almost like a 40-60 stance?

Thanks!

[B.Tunks]

Mantis seeker,

Yes it is, Qixing Bu/ Chat Sing also called Gou Bu (hook stance).
It has become much more 'bent' in recent years and leaning something towards 4/6 in weight distribution but still appears a bit more like a seven star stance in terms of feet placement.
b.t

[loki]

If you are practising Hong Kong Tang Lang then practise it as you are taught, it is not wrong just different

My sentiments exactly!.....



As far as LGY and his stances, he certainly did go low as did many of his disciples of course not always.


Many people base their belief on this on the basis of Luo's widely displayed , catching cicada photo.

LKY was photographed doing the entire Bung Bo Kuen and in none of those photos is LKY in a very low stance. Are there other photos that have LKY doing low stances? Or is is there something in writing passed down that verifies what you say?

[B.Tunks]

Loki,

>LKY was photographed doing the entire Bung Bo Kuen and in >none of those photos is LKY in a very low stance.

I know these photos. (how old was he then?)

Incidentally, Luo was not known amongst Fan's desciples for his skill with forms. He was a free fighting and iron palm specialist who also happened to be a brilliant innovator and teacher.

>Are there other photos that have LKY doing low stances?

Fong Tin Lance.

>Or is is there something in writing passed down that verifies >what you say?

There are Luo Guangyu's teaching passed down in writing.

If you have learnt to stand high from Luo's teachings, then do so because that would be the correct thing to do coming from his line and adhering to his principles (if that is indeed what they were).
I am not trying to tell you how to do your own art.
Personally, I still hold that even his students held low stances in much of their boxing (if you want photo evidence you can readily find some in WHF's books).

Are the other descendants of Fan Xudong low in much of their stances and stepping?
Yes.
Should we use this as a way to verify who has the real Qixing? No.
For starters Luo's Tanglang has other influences therefore by nature it should not be the same as that of his brothers.
In my opinion, trying to point out the inauthenticity of 'mainland' Tanglang through analysis of stance depth is way off the mark.

I think it would best if some more people from within your own line would give their perspective on this.

t

[MantisifuFW]

Both low and high stances are used by HK Tanglang as it is used by Mainland Tanglang. I believe that it is a matter of frequency in usage.

I have studied with mainland practitioners who stood as high as any HK practitioners and in some cases even more so. On the other hand if one looks as Siu Gui Sik or Siu Fan Che or Bak Yuen Tao Toe for starters there are sets that perform in as low a stance as anyone. Obviously the capacity for and the understood effectiveness of low stances was not ignored.

On the mainland, as else where, there is a range of variance.

Shifu Tunks is right, HK Tanglang, by definition is not completely Qixing. It is a mixture, though my own research on what exactly was taken from the styles that make up that mix and what influences it had on Master Luo's work, is incomplete.

Steve Cottrell

[loki]

B.Tunks,

I believe LKY was in his early to mid 30's.
The Fong Tin Lance photo, LKY is in what we would call a pok toy. It should be pretty low in any style, although his is not as low as I have seen others do it.

Anyway, I agree with you on everything you said. I know for a fact that all the lineages have their differences, even within lineages themselves so to argue who is more authentic than who is a moot point. Yet, from what I can gather I think that the point RAYNYSC was trying to make more or less is that mainland china is not as 'pure' ( for lack of a better word ) or closest to the original as some might think.


Maybe I'm wrong?

[B.Tunks]

Nah, not wrong. I think we're all right in many ways.
This kind of level headed discussion is whats needed for progress in our art.
respect,
b.t

[B.Tunks]

Does anyone here have the date of the Luo photos? He was 30-31 when he got to Shanghai and about 44 when he got to Hong Kong.
Thanks.

b.t

[ninjaboy]

hey b.t.,

i like your articulate nature and would like very much if you could expand on this comment you made earlier in the post...

"or empty or bow step with the support thigh breaking parralell "

i don't think i get what you mean by 'breaking parralel'.

thanks for your time.

sincerely,
neil

[B.Tunks]

Ninja,

When I said breaking parallel (spelt it wong before, thats how articulate I am!) I meant that the thigh on the front leg in bow stance/ hill climbing, can not go below parallel to the ground. The same with the support leg in empty stance. The thigh must not be 'hung' from the knee, rather propped up by the knee. Though some very deep empty stances come to almost paralell (almost never in the case of older boxers), they never go deeper. The feeling should be one of sitting, ready to rise, not resisting collapse and straining to rise.
Though breaking parallel sounds very difficult, you can find the practice amongst some modern wushu practitioners.
b.t

[webbb82]

Hi,

BT, I THINK it was Autumn 1936.
If I have time today I will check for you.


J.

[B.Tunks]

Hi Jay,


Originally posted by webbb82

BT, I THINK it was Autumn 1936.
If I have time today I will check for you.
J.

thanks mate! If it does turn out to be right that makes him about 48 years old in these pictures. Very interesting. Look forward to more news.
thanks,
b.t

[ninjaboy]

thanks b.t., i follow your meaning now...

neil

[RAYNYSC]

Mantisben,
I believe you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I never said that FYT couldn't fight like the way we see Mantis done on the MainLand because of his weight. IMO I just feel that he did not have to resort to fighting in such low stances all the time.He could have easily used he size and weight against his oppponets. I am sure it may have crossed his mind to do so at times.


Don't judge PM fighter by how they do their forms in fact, don't judge ANY Martial Artist by how they do their forms. In fact some excellent fighters don't even do forms ( I'm thinking of Tito Ortiz, Mike Tyson, and Mohammad Ali )


I'm not sure about you but shadow boxing & focus mitt drills, can be considered to some extent forms training as well....;)

Anyhow the point is that not all the changes in 7* where made by LKY as some would have you believe & yes age does play a big roll in the way one trains as well as the way one fights.
It's a given that some people maybe able to do the things they did when they were young at an older age just look at Chan Poi
for a good example. The problem is the practicality of using such low stances that's all....:)


Peace

[mantisben]

Mantisben,
I believe you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I never said that FYT couldn't fight like the way we see Mantis done on the MainLand because of his weight. IMO I just feel that he did not have to resort to fighting in such low stances all the time.He could have easily used he size and weight against his oppponets. I am sure it may have crossed his mind to do so at times.

I apologize for misunderstanding you. As for using his size and weight, I am absolutely-positively couldn't-tell-me-otherwise-ively SURE that he used his size and weight against his opponents. Praying Mantis Kung Fu showed him how to USE his size and weight most effectively in combat. And I'll have to agree with you in that I don't think he fought using low stances all the time. However, I could be wrong.

I'm not sure about you but shadow boxing & focus mitt drills, can be considered to some extent forms training as well....;)

Shadow Boxing I would consider sort of like forms training. Still, Shadow boxing is more freestyle and changing than (as far as I know) a PM form.

Maybe its just me, but I can't see the similarites between focus mitt drills and a Kung-Fu form.

It's a given that some people maybe able to do the things they did when they were young at an older age just look at Chan Poi
for a good example.

Grand Master Chan Poi is in a class by himself. I hope that if I live to be as old as him, I'm in as great shape as he is.

The problem is the practicality of using such low stances that's all....:)

I've only seen a few wushu performances, but those folks appear to have many attributes of great fighters: Speed, flexibility, coordination, timing, control, power, focus... Now I don't know whether they use low stances when they fight, but they use low stances when they train, and the results are obviously positive.

As for the "Practicality" of low stances, I wouldn't doubt the effectiveness of a low stance in combat any more than I would doubt the effectiveness of someone STARTING the fight lying on the ground like some excellent UFC fighters. I used to doubt someone could defend themselves from a pre-fighting posture of lying on the ground, then along came the UFC fighters. I don't doubt it anymore.

I also used to doubt that someone could defend themselves effectively if they couldn't SEE who they were fighting with. Then I saw some Wing-Chun practicioners practicing blind-folded Chi-Sau. I don't doubt that anymore either.

Can someone defend themselves effectively while punching and kicking from a low stance? I wouldn't doubt it.

One thing for sure is that if you DON'T train for combat using low stances, being blind-folded, or lying on the ground, you WON'T be able to effectively defend yourself using low stances, being blind-folded, or lying on the ground.

As for me, I can't fight from low stances, being blind-folded...:D

Respectfully,

MantisBen

[Brad]

Now I don't know whether they use low stances when they fight, but they use low stances when they train, and the results are obviously positive.
I find training with low stances to be pretty helpful, but you've got to be extra careful to make sure your alignment isn't off otherwise you risk damaging your knees. I think having everything properly aligned is more important than depth. I found out the hard way ;)

[puja]

Ya, IMO alignment is pretty important. If you have low stances but your body isn't aligned properly not only you risk damaging your knees (or other parts of your body) but you lack stability, too. Low stances usually imply more stability but if they come with improper alignment one looses his structure and gets more unstable than doing a slightly higher stance with proper structure.

best regards,

puja

[yu shan]

It would be very good to see Shifu Tunks post here again... JMO!

Proper alignment is crucial. Big differance between our southern brothers.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Wasn't FXD on old man when he taught LGY ? wouldnt that have an effect on stance hight ? If LGY was in his forties when the Beng Bu photos where taken and his stance was high , then wasnt FXD in his approx 70's when he taught LGY ? Just a thought .

[phoenixdog]

When I think of a big framed CMA fighter,I think of Kumar Frantzis.As much as I hate to admit it,I saw him challenged by a TKD fighter in Denver and Kumar destroyed him using very low stances from his pa kua.He also could do mantis very well.