So... Whatcha Hiding?

[Shaolin-Do]

Why....
TCMA... Traditional....
Ok....

Why are TCMA types sooo secretive about their styles, applications, ect? I think we all have a great deal to learn from good ol Dr. Yang. People need to conceptualize that without the sharing of knowledge and the mutual exchange of ideas, we cannot better ourselves or our artforms. What we now know and learn, has been tested and retested over thousands of years. It isnt perfect. There are still areas to be developed, still areas that we do not understand. Once apon a time, there was a need for secrecy, the knowledge that we now hold could be very dangerous if given to the wrong people. As time has progressed however, I feel that we have lost the need for such shrouds of secrecy, and the not sharing of information is doing our great art a serious disinterest. Is TCMA just a little to traditional? We dont live in feudal times anymore, for the most part at least... The secrecy also keeps the beauty of TCMA from being spread to the rest of our culture. Regardless that within the last ten years through medialization, movies, popculture, ect.... martial arts in general has seen a tremedous jump in participation, be it from sportization or commercialization. But for some reason, TCMA still seems to be left in the dark, people only knowing the magiks that they see on TV as Kung Fu. By sharing, instead of keeping to oneself, we may be able to open peoples eyes to what in many places is fairly taboo. Rolling iron bars down our shins and then rubbing poison on it? Seems wierd... Until the ignorant public is educated on the facts. To develop some sort of understanding among the public however, martial arts (kung fu) needs to develop more strategized and individualized marketing. Putting an ad in the paper or a commercial on TV isnt selling out your kwoon, its broadening the publics horizons. I also feel that by giving a more accurate view of martial arts to the pubilc, we can help to de-bunk and put out of business all of the frauds who make the MA world seem like such a sham.
/end rant.
Any thoughts?

[PHILBERT]

Its all about the Benjimans.

[Liokault]

The only real reason for secrets is money.

By withholding knowlage from a student and hyping the worth of that knowlage up to a great extent a teacher can hold on to that student for much longer.

[Shaolin-Do]

Hence comes the "individualizing" of marketing.
Secrets dont always mean money.
Since we did a demonstration for the opening of "bullet proof monk", Our white belt class has gotten huge.
People did all kinds of forms, 1 step sparring, sparring... And our # of students went up dramatically. 1 example of sharing... cause and effect. We are about to move into a bigger nicer training facility now.
:)

[dezhen2001]

never seen any MA "secret" that wasnt just "secret" coz you didnt have the experience to know what yu were seeing or being told.

so no i dont think its too secretive. :)

dawood

[norther practitioner]

But for some reason, TCMA still seems to be left in the dark

There are a lot of reasons for this. I think there are a lot of people who are actually happy that this is the case. There are more people % wise that I have met in cma that like to do things old school, and keep it small. It could be just by chance, but I don't really know many people from jma who run things like this, but all but 5 cma teachers here in the Denver metro run very small/private type schools.
There has been a small surge in cma lately, who knows where it will go. The question is where does everyone want it to go?

[dezhen2001]

oops didnt read the whole post lol :D

dawood

[Shaolin-Do]

Honestly?
I do enjoy the fact that not a single person I relate to on a daily basis (outisde the kwoon) knows kung fu.
I also have strong distaste for all of the frauds and hacks out there, and without some legit knowledge of kung fu, its going to continue to happen... But hey, Karate has its hacks too.
HIYYYAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
:rolleyes:
So im split for it i guess. Just got tired of OT threads about bush and iraq and the miscolored liquid comming out of somebody's anus.
(I believe it was GDA?)
:)
Speaking of which, where is that guy? Hows he doin?

[fa_jing]

The most dangerous stuff, it is wise to keep restricted. Because you may show it to one person who you trust, but who is that person going to show it to? Etc. Even Dr. Yang keeps secrets, do not doubt it. Secondly, you don't want potential opponents knowing all of your moves ahead of time. I know of a couple examples in Wing Chun.

[red5angel]

I think things started out being less financially driven then anything else. however lately it seems that holding things back, or teaching the next level is all about making money and milking it from those who want to learn it. I think this attitude is killing CMA to be honest. People have got paranoid about showing and teaching their stuff. They don't want someone to go off and teach what they have learned to someone else without paying for it, etc... We have lost a sense of community. I know in my area from time to time they have small get togethers are invite sifu from other schools to visit. It's all nice and fun while their al together but the minute it breaks up the smack talking begins about how much that art sucks or this art isn't any good in a real fight blahblah blah. I'm so sick of it I think I am going to kill the next person to make that sort of comment to me, not to make a point, just to make me feel better.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Dr. Yang keeps secrets, do not doubt it"
Of course, doesnt reveal hardly sh!t on cavity press, thats the one authority Im waiting for a book by.. f*ck Erle Montaigue.

"The most dangerous stuff, it is wise to keep restricted."

Agreed, but Im talking about general TCMA. Not the moves specifically, but the entire art. Iron palm, forms, ect... Im talking about giving the man a fish, not teaching him how.

[norther practitioner]

I'm so sick of it I think I am going to kill the next person to make that sort of comment to me, not to make a point, just to make me feel better.
lol :D
It is true in JMA along with CMA along with PMA etc.... even in the same lineage there is always some like thats not the way it is supposed to be done....

[fa_jing]

I think the YMAA books are at just the right level, good for understanding the style as an outsider, and also good enough to be a training aid for someone studying the style, without being completely comprehensive. I have the Hsing-Yi and Shaui-Jiao books, as well as the Chi-kung books. Have seen the Longfist and TJQ books.

[Shaolin-Do]

YMAA-
I have....
The roots of chinese qigong
Da Mo's muscle/tendon changing, and marrow/brain washing classics
The essence of Shaolin White Crane
Shaolin Long fist
Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na
Taiji Chin Na

Other than that, tons of books on other kung fu, and several books on other MA.

[norther practitioner]

Shaolin Long fist
This is one of my favorite long fist books....

[Shaolin-Do]

Yes... So next time you guys want to say SDer dont know jack, think again cause they may be as well read as me.
:)
Ill list the rest my library later.
Peace!
SD

[red5angel]

NP - having essentially started my martial life in wing chun, I am completely and utterly burnt out on the double talk, two-faced, smack talking nature that appears to run rampant in TMA in general. Even with a few of the guys who are trying to foster a strong martial community in the cities you can hear disparaging remarks. TMA people are so conditioned to believe that the art they study is the right one and there are no others.

I found myself getting ****ed the other day at one of my new classmates because he started giving me the "this art was designed to defeat that art(s)" speech. I tucked most of that anger quietly away to be revealed at some later date in a gun toting blaze of glory here at work, however I did get on my own high horse for a short time to point out that everyone you talk to in the CMA often has an art or style type they are designed to beat, and it turns out that most arts aren't really designed to be the end all to be all of any other art or style. I say get over yourself, study the art you like for the reasons you like and stop puffing your chest and beating it to prove your art is better. I am ready to go study TKD just because of all the fights I have seen, TKD has been the only one to end them quickly!

[Shaolin-Do]

Edit :
That doesnt mean I think I know everything. in the least.

"A truly wise man knows what he knows, and a also knows what he does not know."
Confucious (sp?) :D

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, I hear you man... I'm glad the community isn't too big out here, sort of for that reason. We get a lot of smack talkers, but not to the extent we did at the first school I went to in NY. I'm pretty sick about hearing about so and so did this b/c this was derived to do this to that person.

[Liokault]

I am ready to go study TKD just because of all the fights I have seen, TKD has been the only one to end them quickly!


Yes being pasted into a bloody mess on the floor by a bar room drunk who dont know what a spinning reverse back kick is can be a VERY quick way to end a fight.

[joedoe]

I beleive that there are a few good reasons to keep secrets in the MAs.

1) Back in the day, MA was often a business of life and death so it was in the master's best interests to hold back a technique or two for his own protection - sometimes even from his own students! Often the 'secret' would then be revealed to the successor as the master felt he was approaching death.

2) Some things should not be taught to people unless you know you can trust them not to misuse it. An ethical point I guess.

3) Sometimes people just aren't ready to comprehend the 'secret'.

Flame away.

[Laughing Cow]

In my opinion it is not so much secret, but that too much information will/might hurt a students progress.

In my style we got 5 levels of mastery, telling you the requirements of level 5 won't help you master the level 1 requirements and only confuse you.

Or do you teach your 6yr old cosinus calculations when he can't add or subtract properly yet, nor will primary school education talk about it.

You know it because you been through the course and learned it.

IMHO, there are NO secrets just stuff you haven't learned and realised/comprehended yet.

[Shaolin-Do]

Im talking about the generally secretive nature of TCMA. Technique sharing (cross style) seems to almost never happen. Training yes, but people dont seem very interested or willing in showing another MAist their stuff.
"its too deadly"
Its easier to kill someone than to kick their ass as far as Im concerned. Dead people dont fight back.
Killing people is fairly basic and rudementary compared with actual fighting techniques and applications, unless flowing into a death move, or unless you are talking about dim mak.

[Laughing Cow]

Shaolin-Do.

Yes, issuing a killing technique is easier than just stunning or knocking somebody out.

I think the idea of "not-sharing" is more based on personal/emotional motives than anything else.

Like with many things in regards to MA much is cultural and mis-interpreted by westerners as "secrets" or similar, and is passed on without a full understanding of the underlying principles and motives.

There are a lot more protocols to follow in asian societies, and much depends on them. Many westerners stripped the protocls out of the arts but left other things in that are tied to those same protocols or lay extra value on certain aspects.

Just my thoughts.

[ZIM]

Technique sharing happens, but its a fight between purists and pagans. JKD and Yiquan are 2 cross-pollenated styles, and they take flak in different ways.

The [ultra?] purists are kind of exclusionary... along the lines of: we've got a waiting list, accept only 3 students a year, and you have to interview 5 times before we'll consider you. Sign here in blood.

As far as showing you a technique, oh you have to train the stance for 3 years first, so forget it. :p The only secret is doing it.

[Shaolin-Do]

Hence tradition.
People are too wrapped up on keeping it secretive tho... We arent in feudal china anymore. Sharing more intimate knowledge amongst the kung fu community in general, and giving general knowledge to the public could be a great thing.

[No_Know]

Saying it's a secret is quicker than saying you don't have the training nor maturity nor understanding to consistantly pull it off. I say it's a secret and maybe some day... and youare satiated a bit and can go back to assigned training for your current level of understanding.

If you don't know it it Is secret if someone else knows and you don't and they are not telling you. It's a secrect. Some you can find on your own. Some you must be told. But since you don't Need to Know Everything, don't worry about it.

If It took a lot for e to get to a level of a computer game and I tell you where to go and you get to the same level quicker you might not have appreciation for my telling you and just take it as you found out and that means that you are closer to winning. This thinking can be bad in life and help you into trouble. So (needle and thread) earning instruction might have been done as opposeed to telling all and having them forget and come back and say what came after that? C o n t i n u o u s l y.

[joedoe]

But this is the thing - basically you could be asking that some dude give you something for nothing. He may give you a technique, but what if you don't have anything to show him?

I wrote about this a few weeks ago, but I'll write it again here. My Sigung started training when he was about 6, and in his 70+ years of kung fu he had 7 different masters and learned about 5 or 6 different arts. Now tell me that there wasn't any technique sharing there.

The simple fact was that he dedicated himself to learning as much as he could of each art. He trained 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for much of his teenage and young adult life. He was shown much in the way of the techniques of each art, but he had to work for it.

So why do we expect people to share everything about their art without seeing them put in the hard work first?

[Serpent]

The attitude today, especially propogated by the religion of consumerism, is that everybody is entitled to anything if they stump up the $$$'s. People want instant gratification for their investment. The trouble is that with kung fu the only investment that really works is time and hard work, to develop skill, trust and respect.

You can't buy that.

[Laughing Cow]

Question:
Does a Chinese really say something is "secret" or is this an interpretation by the student?

Why Sifu was recently asked by a fellow student if he can learn the Sword form, his reply was " You are not yet ready for it."

Does this this imply a secret or hidden technique, no not at all it.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

LC - I think there is the interpretation as well as the 'secrets'. I think that many of the 'secrets' are there for you to discover if you are willing to put in the time and effort, otherwise the teacher may feel that you are ready for the knowledge and just give it to you.

It's like when I try some stuff and muck around with a technique and find it works, then I go to my teacher and say "I think this is how it works, is that right?" and he says yes or no. It is a secret that I have unlocked, but eventually he would have given it to me when I was ready.

[Laughing Cow]

Joedoe.

I am in full agreement.

;)

My Sifu teaches and explains things in different ways to different students of the same level.

[joedoe]

Cool :)

I guess what ticks me off is that people seem to expect that they should be shown stuff when they haven't paid their dues i.e. put in the hard work. Just because information is more easily accessible doesn't mean that it has to be freely given out.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Joedoe.

I am in full agreement.

;)

My Sifu teaches and explains things in different ways to different students of the same level.

So does mine - because everyone is different. ;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by joedoe
Cool :)

I guess what ticks me off is that people seem to expect that they should be shown stuff when they haven't paid their dues i.e. put in the hard work. Just because information is more easily accessible doesn't mean that it has to be freely given out.

Same here.

At the last lesson one of the senior students asked me if I had been invited to drink tea with my Sifu yet.
;)

I was shocked, since I have studied under him for less than 1 year.
Another Student simply said not everybody is invited to do so.

Either somebody knows something I don't, or ....
:D

[No_Know]

Shaolin-Do, as to sharing this ic a commercial life. Buy and sell. Steal and sell. If you see my technique you can mimick it without really learning. You can then see enough to claim (away from where I am) you do my style. People like my style and pay you for what is only mine. They do not know better so thief gets paid. People get deceived (though exercise). And I see people claiming my style when I'm the only teacher and I No_Know them. Reputability gets lost-ish...

I say I do my style. People laugh. Then say that they have seen that and that it's no good. Or that they have a high rank in my style. ? wierdness and other than niceness.

What you propose th solve one dislike is the spreader of something else you do not like.

Secrecy~? Quality control.

Perhaps some might say some-such whatever whatever.

[David Jamieson]

Why are TCMA types sooo secretive about their styles, applications, ect?

Well, first of all, this is more of a southern styles thing and is bascially a carry over of the Kuo Ming Tang, The Hung Men and the Tongs which were essentially the repositories of Martial arts that were brought out of China from the rise of the Qing until the cultural revolution.

The secret societies would not give freely of their arts lest a weakness in them be found by their enemies.

Nowadays, this is all going the way of the dodo. There are no more Qing warriors waiting to kill a Ming Loyalist and frankly, it's all very silly from a western perspective. Considering that not a one sifu alive and teaching today every actually experienced the thang.

In fact. many sifu haven't been involved in a Tong or the triads for a while.

The KMT is still alive and well however and there is usually an office in every Chinatown in every city in North America. these are the Chinese Nationalists who are the the same who fought against the communists in China, and the Japanese usurpers and now, the Communists again as tehy seek to take over Taiwan, the stronghhold of Chinese Nationalism.

In case you haven't noticed, traditionalists in general are for the most part stodgy and secretive. It's safer than having their tenets ridiculed publicly by the uninitiated.

It's their thing, they can have it. :D

cheers