TMA and sparring

[red5angel]

How many of you TMA types spar in your school or outside for that matter? whats the format?

[Oso]

In school:

depending on level of student anywhere from 1/4 speed/power to controlled full speed power.

all contact to knees, elbows, throat, eyes, ears, and most other joints must never leave perm damage.

throws, takedowns, sweeps to finishes on the ground.

sometimes pads sometimes not

(what zee 'ell are you trying to stir up???)

weapon sparring is some sort of wire masked hard helmet and whatever the person thinks is the best option for grip/padding on the stick or staff.

still trying to find someone to sword spar with me and my 1/4" thick, flat edge aluminum broadsword:D I duct taped a rubber cane tip to the end but still no one wants to play:( How am I ever going to become a master swordsman...do forms all day???



Out of school: whatever is mutually agreed upon.

[red5angel]

hehe, I knew you would be the first to step up ;)

Oso, actually I am not trying to stir up anything, I just have a sincere interest. Beyond all the smack talk on these forums, in truth I have been to a few TMA schools and the only one who did any real good hard sparring was my old karate school, and that was of course point sparring, although we took it ****her then that sometimes.
I understand that sparring leaves the potential for injury but as a martial artist I guess that is something I am willing to accept. Like any sort of physicaly demanding sport or skill, injury is always a risk. So beyond that, why is it not that many TMA people out there appear to be passing on sparring.
Some of them have some light sparring "drills" like Wing Chuns chi sao, but I have yet to walk into a TMA school and see anything beyond that.
I have to assume that since my experience is limited I am just missing the schools that do spar, so I figured I would ask here and see what other peoples experiences are.

[Liokault]

We sparr lots.

Our format is normaly just put on gloves and do what u want till u are told to stop.

Just recently my teacher has started most guys sparring in a very small area (about 4 foot by 9) with the rules being that if u step out of the area you lose and fighting stops.
We started doing this for many reasons but the main 2 being that you can not just run away when your oponent wants to attack and that if you are getting hit way to much (as was happening in unlimitted sparring for our beginners) you can just take 1-2 steps back to acknolage yoiur beten and the hitting stops.
It also makes it more important to get past the imidiate punching range and clinch/grappel.

[Golden Arms]

I cant really speak for anyone else, but we spar anywhere from 1 step, 1/2 speed drills all the way up to 10 minutes straight, anything goes, where the guys sparring get to take it wherever they want. I am suprised to hear that most kung fu schools DONT do that..but I am sure its fairly nasty on the liability side...A major side effect of sparring often and like that is injury. And most of the students that have been at my school 5 years or more have some sort of broken bone, dislocated joint, or several scars to show off, as well as respect for all body types and weights of fighters for that reason :) Who else spars..I want to hear more!

[Shadowboxer]

I sparred at a Kenpo Karate school this weekend. I wore cup, mouthpiece, and fingerless (Century) gloves. You set your own pace and level of contact. If it's too hard say something, not hard enough say something. I did a couple of controlled kicks to the knee while closing the gap a couple of times. I think there was only 1 knee thrown. When I visited for the 1st time, there was a kid who tried to shoot in and his opponent stopped him with a sort of sprawl. They were up against a wall as well. I also saw a couple of sweeps that day. I think they have a variety of stylists there - mantis,WC,kickboxing,Thai. Not sure if I've seen any grapplers but they teach BJJ at the school.

[red5angel]

I think combined with the liability is paying for insurance. I know a popular MMA school here locally does sparring but "officially" they do not because insurance is too expensive.

[Liokault]

What sort of insurance do u guys in the states normaly get?


I got my insurance though the BCCMA just because I had to have their insurance for their comps. For 20 pounds u get 80 pounds per week off work due to injury and almost total protection against claims from any one u hurt as lond as its BCCMA member to member.


I let it lapse now and as we dont have much of a claimant culture over here as yet I have not really thought about getting any more.

[Golden Arms]

Yep..especially if you dont use safety gear. We sort of stress NOT wearing gloves, cup, or even mouthpieces, so that you raise your confidence level by learning to protect those things or use them smartly under less than full contact, and eventually the guys kick it up to semi or sometimes full contact with no gear. Its a slow process, but very effective when it comes to fruition :)

[red5angel]

It's a necessity here in the states. I am not sure exactly what it runs but it is probably different from state to state.

[Oso]

I run it slow in the beginning as well. liability is one issue. a big one. also, I just havn't gotten anyone who's really shown that that's what they want. I have one brown sash of mine from my old town that still comes down and we will go at it pretty hard. I've actually had one quit from watching us even though I tried to explain that my brown was, well a brown, and had been at it for almost 4 years.

it's been said before that not everyone is in it for the banging, that's ok. If I have someone who is good at the forms I teach them then I will showcase them as needed for forms and someone else for sparring. Right now I got a guy who I can point to and use as an example of good stance training and chi kung training, but that's about it...for now.

[red5angel]

I guess I don't get why one would join a martial arts school, see them fighting and then quit...:(

[Shaolin-Do]

No gloves full contact would be fun to watch.
:)
We spar, do take downs, no standing locks allowed tho... :(

[Oso]

I guess I don't get why one would join a martial arts school, see them fighting and then quit...

that public misperception I guess. Sadly, in my class, this visiting brown is the only chance I get to open it up a little, he doesn't mind getting hit and has gotten to the point that I don't give him any openings. So, most people only see the 1/4 contact stuff that my yellows are doing now and think that's all cool and stuff and even though I tell them that it will be incrementally tougher, they don't have any tactile representation of it yet.

and now the one student I've had for almost the entire 2 years I've been here is gone to the navy.:(

[norther practitioner]

We are restarting our "fight class" right now. I'm not exactly sure what direction shirfu wants to bring this. All I know as of now, there are only two of us in this class, we are starting with a lot of two man drills, and working those directly into the sparring. We are trying to bring as much of our "style" into it as possible at our respective levels. I'm thinking we'll be using shin pads, foot gear, don't know what gloves we'll use yet, cups, and mouth pieces. Most likely some head gear. I'll post more on this "new" class as we get more time in. I'm trying to go sans shou rules with this, but we'll see what my teacher decides.

[Oso]

NP, that sounds cool.

I was getting way bored w/ no sparring so I started going to this karate school and taking their jujitsu class. I'm having fun and only wish the class was longer. We've got cups, mouthpieces and the cloth hand protectors and will go from 3-7 on a 1-10 scale with 10 being all out.

[jun_erh]

When sparring starts in when schools lose the most students. can't remember where I read that.

[taijiquan_student]

Ha. You'd be suprised by how many people get a little freaked by PUSH HANDS. It's ridiculous.

[Oso]

I'm scared of push hands.:)

a buddy of mine in town has trained exactly the same amount of time as I have. He's focused more on tai chi than I have by a long shot and if we push then I'm on my azz a whole lot. We match pretty evenly in regular sparring though.

[red5angel]

What's so scary about push hands?

[norther practitioner]

What's so scary about push hands?


The embarresment of falling on your ass when you are only going .000000001 mph while doing push hands.

[taijiquan_student]

I think a lot of people who didn't start taiji for martial purposes are really freaked out and uncomfortable when someone is right up close to them, and is trying to push them and pull them, and split them, etc. This happens mostly with the women at our school. There's one women who started push hands about a month ago, and then only stayed for a few weeks before dropping out. She still comes to form classes. I know that people have different reasons for practicing, but still...What really peeves me, I guess, is that a senior student just did a "reality" self-defence seminar this weekend, and this woman was there, you know, all interested in what he was saying, but when it came to push hands, not to mention san shou or self-defense drills, she couldn't take it. I know it's a cliche, but it's like wanting to swim without wanting to get wet. You can't want to be this empowered woman who can defend herself against potential aggressors and rapists, and then flinch at the idea of getting pushed around in the classroom.

Oh well. That's my rant for the day.

[Laughing Cow]

R5A.

A lot of people also get freaked out when their Sifu neutralises them and leaves them hanging in the balance.

My last Sifu was like that you pushed and all of a sudden you are in a position where you literaly can't do anything.

Or Sifu applies a lock and throw, you push and next think you know is a lot of pain and/or looking at the ceiling or wall from the ground.

Being pounced out by a push or a punch can also be a bit unsettling.
Most of the times you never knew where or how it happened.

Said that in my Kwoon we differentiate between:
Tui Shou (Push Hands)
San Shou (Sparring hands)

Cheers.

P.S.: Yes a woman don't like tui shou because the hands often get close to softer tissues. ;)

[Oso]

I was joking :), yeah, that's it, a joke. I ain't skeered.

I'm just not a tai chi player.

what I know and practice of tai chi has softened my edges and augmented my regular practice.

I just suck at straight push hands and know it.

NP, the push hands I've done is not that slow.

TS and LC have, of course, the right of it.

This aforementioned buddy of mine has said that it takes a lot of nerve to fight w/ tai chi because of how close you let the opponent. He may have been paraphrasing someone else but he's absolutely right, imo.

[norther practitioner]

NP, the push hands I've done is not that slow.

You should try it super slow with someone who knows what they are doing... It really shows a lot of the techs off... You also have to be really honest with yourself too.

[Oso]

You should try it super slow with someone who knows what they are doing... It really shows a lot of the techs off... You also have to be really honest with yourself too.




I'm just not a tai chi player.


:)

[norther practitioner]

I'm just saying....:D
sorry, just thought you might have the chance to push every once in a while...

[red5angel]

I guess there is a psychology there I am not getting. Stuff like that doesn't freak me out, it just gets me more pumped to be studying and getting that level of skill!

tajiquan_student - I see this all the time. I think these people come in with some hollywood, preconcieved idea that they are going to learn some cool looking forms and become an instant ass kicker. It's really starting to get on my nerves a little. I feel like no one wants to spar anymore, they just want to do the forms and maybe some drilling and somehow this is all supposed to translate to real ability.

Personally, and I know this may not be all that politically correct of me to stay, I think the first step would be to split up classes into male and female. Hear me out before you get upset - I love women, one of my best sparring partners is a woman who has been practicing TKD for quite some time. However, even though you run into a few of the ladies who liked to fight or spar, most don't want to and aren't comfortable at that level of study with men. Now I know the women on this board, not including ewallace and chang style novice ;), are going to jump all over me for this but then you migt just be one of those girls who likes to tussle a little. In my experience though, it seems most women are in it to learn self defense or for health, and while it would seem logical that you would want to train with others the size and strength you might be facing in a self defense situation, I believe women become completely uncomfortable with this. That's why I think it is better to have split classes now a days, I don't think it's optimal by any means, ideally we would all get along and do what we have to do however sadly this is usually not the case.

Once this has been done, then we have to weed out all the hippies and send them to taiji for health and spiritual fitness classes, because frankly, I am sick of those people who are just in it for image, and there seems to be quite a few as of late in my area. I was watching a demo the other day and everything seemed forced and rushed and I finally figured out what it was. All these men and women were trying to make it look cool and flashy, instead of trying to concentrate on the substance and the skill involved.

The final step is to get rid of all the wimps. I am talking about those people who are too sensitive both physically and mentally to take a few blows, invest in a little loss, and turn every lesson into a learning situation. I know when someone has kicked my butt in the ring I am shaking his or her hand and beginning to analyze what it was I was doing wrong or they were doing right no need to get upset.

Anyway, enough ranting, fire away!

[norther practitioner]

In general, not being PC, I'd agree... however, what would you do with the couple that like to tussle? Stick them with the ones who don't want to fight etc? Unfortunately, I think this might become an issue at my school in the future, however I hope not....
You always have a few that need to be different :D

[kwaichang kaned]

Spar in and out of school.
I try to let my partener set the pace but there are one or two people i train with that i know won't whine if they get hit so we can really go for it.
Sifu insists on headguards
Outside school i have a couple of friends who study other arts So i try and use what i know on them to see if it works outside the kwoon on reasonably skilled people.
Then it's just gloves and cups if they remember them.

[Oso]

NP, during the 3 years I learned the tai chi I know (as well as the little bit of bagua and hsing yi) I did push every week. After a point, I felt like it should be done faster, IF YOU ARE INTENDING TO USE IS TO FIGHTING. I might, probably, be wrong, that's just my take.

today, I do my form both slow and fast. slow if I'm looking for the meditation and fast to get a better sense of how it's going to be applied in a fight. again, that's just me.


red5, gender is not the issue. it's the rest of what you are talking about. the separation in classes should be between the hobbyists and the fighters.

all my people can be hobbyists to a point, but after about 2 years they need to decide if they are going to continue to be hobbyists or whether they are in it to learn to fight.

I'm still not sure where the distinction between SD and fighting is drawn.

SD, is a mindset more than physical skills. The avoid/evade portion of what I teach is the SD part. But, if you haven't been able to avoid and evade then once it becomes physical...you are fighting. If you don't train what you know to a fighting level then you better get really good at avoiding and evading.

[red5angel]

Oso, I would like to agree with you, however in my experience women don't stick with it like men do. Women aren't represented in the arts like men are. There are reasons for that. In my experience, most of those reasons have to do with a fear of fighting or contact. I know that when our wing chun class was split up people, especially the women seemed to be more comfortable with the chi sau. Maybe I am experienceing somehting that others aren't but I have seen a lot of stories on this forum and eslewhere about women dropping out (and men too) when sparring is involved. I think while equality for men and women is a must, sometimes men and women should still be treated differently, not less, just handled differently.

I think hobbyist should most definitely be split as well. So far I am finding that I appear to be a fighter in a hobbyist world around here and it is really irking me. I hate to say it but I think the hobbyist are starting to ruin the martial arts. MAybe I am just not civilized enough...:(

[The Yellow Dart]

We share a school with a Kenpo group, and spar with them from time to time. I've found it can be tough to merge good (or in my case "decent") Kung Fu techniques with the faster/lighter sparring done by most Karate schools. Anyone else have this experience?

But if it's just us Hung-Gar types, we usually flow-drill with medium speed, controlled power and intent. Freestyle fighting comes later, same speed and intent but with throws and locks. Good fun :)

[rubthebuddha]

sweeeeeeet.

kyle smith (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail64.html) is posting with us now. life is good. :D

[Oso]

red5, what I was talking about is that the percentage of men and women that want to learn to fight with their ma skills could be in the same class. not whether the percentage of women who want to do that is going to be high or not, it won't be but a fraction of the number of men. but, everyone who wants to try and tough it through a class that involves hard striking and throwing and choking and whatever should be allowed to participate.

If a woman is silly enough to think that she is going to get a real taste of what defending herself against a 180+ pound guy in an all women's SD class then she deserves what might happen to her if she only plays patty cake w/ other women.

not saying that a group of women can't train hard and physical but women generally run smaller than men so they will be limiting their training by not factoring in the extra 40-100 lbs a guy might have on them.


and, we know how barbaric you are....;)

[rubthebuddha]

aye. quite the knuckle dragger. ;)

oso's right -- sparring is meant to bring a certain level of reality to your martial skill. if a person spars solely against folks their own build, then the swarthy 300-lb. guys trying to mug 'em are gonna have a field day.

[PQS]

In our WT school we have sparring but its not done at my level in class yet, it's primarily for more advanced students.
We also have a monthly fight club where we have sparring this is based on how many times you have been ie start on hands only at first then progress to all in later
Regards
Peter

[ZIM]

What if you reversed the traditional order of teaching? Like, show the student some basic moves and stances- 5 element fists or whatever, then toss them in? Later, you teach them the traditional stuff to strengthen what they do and suss out the details. Why do I get the impression that that IS the real traditional way?? You know, hard knocks...

R5- is that the kind of school you want?

[Oso]

It's the Commercial School Paradox:

People won't pay to get beat up.


If you were to start off by as you have suggested then they will invariabley get some bruise and such. Most people won't stand for that. They want the image associated with 'taking' a martial art but most don't want to have to explain at work/school why they are sporting a black eye or busted lip.

So, maybe it's really an ego thing...few people want to humble themselves enough to train hard. Training hard isn't all 'up', you have bad days when you feel like crap, perform like crap and thus look like crap when you get clobbered by your partner who's having an excellent day.

People basically want to feel good about themselves. Martial training isn't an instant "Hey, I'm just Super" endeavor. You will feel like a klutz for a while just trying to learn forms, immediately sparring would only add to that and then 'bam', another one bites the dust.


anyways, i'm starting to ramble....

[red5angel]

everyone who wants to try and tough it through a class that involves hard striking and throwing and choking and whatever should be allowed to participate.

Fair enough, but then you have to PROVE that you are willing to strick it out male or female.
Frankly, if I were to ever start a school it would have sparring and I would be up front about it. I'm not sure ZIM if I would start people out doing it too early, I have no problem with having to wait to do it to get some skill first, you should have some good control over your body anyway and that takes time to build. I would just like to see kung fu schools taking the FIGHTING more seriously. I could give a fukk about those guys and gals who just want to look pretty, if someone wants to teach them then let them but right now all the mma, grappling, muy thai, and bjj schools are popular with real fighters because they get to really fight.

[jun_erh]

IN my class we do just applications. So basically pulled punches, trips/ throws and chin na's to tap out. there is sparring, but it doesn't usually happen during the class. and not everyone takes san shou, which is also taught. So it's sort of like you have to do san shou if you really want to just show up and go at it.


This class is very small, the all forms class I did elsewhere was huge and crowded.