Tan Sao

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I would like an explanation of the meaning of "tan", from someone who angles theirs upwards in their first form.

[yuanfen]

Since I dont angle upwards to the sky- that leaves me out.

[whippinghand1]

upwards as opposed to ....?

[yuanfen]

Towards the center and controlling/occupying the line in the process.

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How to interpret the lack of responses? Nobody knows what Tan means? Or everyone is embarassed to admit they aim for the throat? How about a perspective from the reality-based folks and ultimate fighters? :)

When a student asks "what does tan sao mean?", what do you say?

[rubthebuddha]

palm-up hand.

where the rest of the arm lies is in relation to the context/application

[PaulH]

From what I gather, WSL did use the Tan as you said at one time and almost killed one of his students when his Tan fingers accidentally speared into the throat area. Needless to say, it can be a powerful weapon than just a mere spreading force tool. For me I favor the tan shape when I punch as it gives body protection as well as good structural power.

Regards,

[fa_jing]

"Dispersing" "Spreading"

We angle ours up but moderately

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Imagine you walk into a martial arts school for the first time as a visitor. The instructor is leading a drill, and shouts "duck", at which point everyone jumps. The instructor says "good, now duck again", and they jump again. The instructor responds to your confusion with the reply, "that's one variation of ducking". :eek:

[reneritchie]

Tan Sao is literally "dispersing hand", I understand the etymology to derive from the hand acting like sea birds who spread out in search of food when the land is dry. If I had to explain it, I would say Tan Sao sheds force the way an angled roof might shed rain. It creates a strong structure that makes it easier for some types of incoming force to slide along the bridge, away from the center, yet it not obvious like a barring arm, thus can lead an unwarry opponent to think their successfully coming in, and open themselves up to you.

The term Sao can be misleading, however, since optimal use involves the waist and horse in harmony with the bridge (aligning behind it as a hammer would a nail, turing around it or turning it around, etc.)

Hope this helps,

Back to Canuck Day festivizing!

[Ernie]

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How about a perspective from the reality-based folks and ultimate fighters?
i'm not the ultimate fighter type but i do fall into the reality type

and personally i don't give a rats a$$ how you do your tan or an other shape in the form as long as you uderstand the concept behind the shape since that is what really counts ,
as fa jing said Dispersing" "Spreading"
is the definition i have heard from the likes of david peterson .

but in a reality based situation if you are going out there trying to fit the exact shape and angle of your tan the way you do it in the form , good luck !!!
but if you have the concept of elbow down / wedgeing or dare i say it whipping '' don't whip to much you mught go blind '';)
then you can adapt it to the situation.
o.k. reality based guy checking out back to non reality:eek:

[yuanfen]

Rene and I have had this discussion before- literal meanings dont always define a motion. There is more to some tan saos than dispersing or sliding.

Tan can also control- but its not called fok. A fok can "disperse" but its not called tan. Labels are for conveniences-though they may give some idea of the substance- but not enough.


Using the term tan- the wing chun world has a variety of motions differring in details... palm and forearm parallel to the ground,
palm and hand and forearm akmost perpendicular to the ground. palm flat but bent going towards the heart with the forearm
and arm in an appropriate angle going forward.

The etymology helps some but real understanding comes from
understanding the details of the mechanics and dynamics of a motion. IMO anyways.

[TenTigers]

Tan describes more the shape or ying of the arm, and not so much the application or usage, since tan can be used in so many different ways. (I suppose if you really worked at it, you can make the term disperse or spread fit into any application anyway), but what I am trying to convey is that it leaves alot of room to go outside the box in your thinking and application. So your tan might be hard with foward energy, or whipping downward, or yeilding, or wedging foward, or whipping outwards, or drilling foward, etc,etc. My .02

[reneritchie]

Hey Joy,

I think its just a question of whether you're going by the shape or by the action. I tend to default to the action. We have a hand that looks like a Tan Sao shape but acts to control rather than disperse and we call it Fook Sao as well. Same way a Tan looking shape can Tok/Ding, Chum, or do other things.

In reality, all the shapes (or perhaps more properly, paths) are a dynamic of different Ging, and can and should change as circumstances change, from dispersing to controlling to barring to sinking or anything else, sometimes impeceptibly, as needed.

[Phenix]

Disclaimer!


IMHO and IMHO ONLY !!!




In my understanding,

Now people has group a few things and name it Tan.

It is clasical definition, Tan is flipping / twisting/ reelling Spreading out which is evol from the water hand of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujien. This water hand evol into Wing Chun's TAn in a soft fashion and Karate's side outward block in a hard fashion.

Tan's palm is also classified to be in chest high and not higher then Shoulder.


Then, people adding the slide forward spearing movement after the TAn and call it a Tan. That sliding forward movement.. is actually the " half hidden point" of WCK. the uniquness of WCK which differentiate White Crane , other WCK, and WCK.
ONe will not find this "sneaky half point " trade mark of WCK in other system. Thus, WCK due to the "half point" always has the third hand, meaning one hand more then White Crane... ect. And also, to implement this third hand, one needs the "snake" engine training.... at least that is a characteristic of Wing Chun Kuen passed down by Yik Kam from the Red Junk.

(certainly, now since I open one more card, other non WC system will also claim sure they have it. the same rule again, show prior art in writting before 1900, otherwise, one is just copying me here. and don't call a copy art the Original....
See, all WCK from Red boat has this, this is our trade mark. even I cannot speak for other lineage. But, this "half point" is our trademark. That is where the short JIng showing its flying color.


I don't belive in those Tan sau in the ultimate hand from Tan Sau Ng myth because without lots of details, such as the one about the Half point, There is no way people going to convince the world about how superior the Tan Sau of Tan Sau Ng. get to the details and transformation is the key. get very clear and particular with the methodology and implementation.)

Then, people add the Chao or lead/jang upward and called it to be Tan

Then, people make the palm as high to cover thier face level such as the "pretty woman facing mirror" of other system and called it to be Tan.

Then, Jong Sau as Bai Jong is also become Tan.

Once a simple and clear Tan thus due to everyone's free definition become alots of things.....

So, Tan can become verb, adjective, noun.... hahahaha

A Tan is Tan Tan.

No one will know what is it anymore.

IMHO.

[Phenix]

Joy,

Side topic, I read Yang JwingMing's article on white crane.
Put it this way, I might disagree with him about WCK big time.
But, I respect highly how he carry on teaching White Crane and switch from Engineering to Martial art teaching. A great guy who has gone through a lots in live looking for his own self-actualization.

[yuanfen]

Phoenix-
True. I admire his taking charge of his life.
I have met him- friendly to those who know him---
otherwise more reserved.
Jeff Bolt in Texas is one of his very good students.

Once upon a time I tried to please my parents during my rebellion
and running away...they wanted me to be a doctor or atleast an engineer.Previous generations mostly doctors... to be different I checked into engineering- one semester. In dem days there were two required courses...engineering drawing and surveying,,,
after one long semester of drawing a nut and a bolt and standing in Oklahoma heat witha tripod- I decided to save my mind....
never looked back.
Joy

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
In dem days there were two required courses...engineering drawing and surveying,,,
after one long semester of drawing a nut and a bolt

Does that ever bring back memories! Talk about time consuming. Being just after the stone age, CAD stations weren't in use by the masses yet. Just me, my drafting board, T-square, and a whole lot of patience. I had a full year of, and still suffer nightmares about bolts, nuts, isonometric drawings, and other things English and metric, LOL.


I decided to save my mind....

Guess that explains some about my dilemma! :p

BTW, Hendrik, enjoyed your insightful post on tan sau; thanks for that.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

Darn, and I thought intro to technical drawing in High School was kinda interesting. Not as interesting as comics, of course, but what is? ;)

[PaulH]

Born into a family with a distinguished history of Civil Engineers from father to sons, I choose to be a more liberal sheep in the arts. I keep reassuring myself that I make the right choice whenever I'm around my family. "The greedy search for money or success will almost always lead men into unhappiness. Why? Because that kind of life makes them depend upon things outside themselves. - André Maurois"

I don't know what the murmurings against the blue sketches are about. They were a step up from my crayon drawing days.

Regards,

[Tom Kagan]

When a student asks "what does tan sao mean?", what do you say?

The answer, in part, depends on who asks and who answers.


The young Sifu: It means "palm up block."
The abusive Sifu: It mean "Polio Hand" the way you do it.
The exasperated Sifu: So many years you study here and you still don't know? Ugh! No hope for you.
The pretend Sifu: Just keep doing it for another 2 years and ask me again.
The smart Sifu: It means "to disperse." The origins of the TanSao comes from ... (insert all variants of Henrick's and Rene's answers along with another ten pages of documents) Here, let me show you ... (insert umpteen demonstrations using up rest of class time)
The shrewd Sifu: It means "beggar's palm." By the way, <extending hand> did you pay this month?
The wise Sifu: <glaring at student> That's a good question. Have you thought about it? <student in reply> Umm, I think it means to block with the palm up. <Sifu smiles and changes subject/wanders off> <student puzzled/unconvinced and feels need to study TanSao further>



:)

[reneritchie]

Henrick

Hendrik

[whippinghand1]

So you haven't answered my question from a while ago.


Others walk the bow, I walk the string.
What happens if others are walking the string?

[old jong]

Oh come on!...There is enough string for everybody here!...Whatever you walk on it or wear it!...;)

[PaulH]

Old Jong is correct. When others walk the string, I bow. Plenty of this in the circus. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[reneritchie]

It's the 2000s, walk the darn semi-auto...

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by reneritchie
It's the 2000s, walk the darn semi-auto...

:D :D :D

I am not sure how someone would get the impression I am not armed already. ;)

[Phenix]

Hi Joy, KJ,

I am taking a rest spend time with my kid traveling... seems I have never done this before. I am reading a book title "pull your own string"...

One can live a life with love or live a life intimate others ... or become a victime of coorporate under then name of loyalty.

One good thing I found is that my blood pressure drop from 79 to 72 after doing what I likes to do, which is the self-actualization paht. If anyone doesn't know, the High Blood pressure reference was drop to under 80 for a normal......


As for Tan Sau that is Ying with Yang, Fook Sau that is Yang Within Ying, Then, there is Bong and Kei forarm couple.
well, these then summary into 4 cycles....

I think it is a time to have a friendship seminals again. Rene.