Lineage and 'sparring verses chi sau!!'

[Miles Teg]

OK guys I am going to ask the question that was probably on everyone�fs mind during the infamous sparring verses chi sau wars.
Everyone was being as polite as possible and staying away from this question but if no one else will ask it I will!

What lineage are you?
Which do you think is the most beneficial, sparring or chi sau?

So far I�fve noticed the people that were involved in this argument were:
OK Sparring
UltimateWingChun******William Cheung TWC
Knifefighter*************Ling Ting WT
KenWingJutsu **********WT
Wcis4me*****************TWC
Ernie*********************WT
Phil Redmond************????????

OK chi sau
Yuenfen****************Augustine Fong
Me********************TST
KungFu cowboy*********Augustine Fong
Sel********************???????TST maybe????
KJ********************Ken Chung
TJD*******************????
Enterthewhip***********?????????
Crimsomking************???????
NTC********************???????????
VingTsunstudent********?????????
Alpha Dog**************?????????

Sorry if some of those details are wrong.

This is a little controversial but it could be very interesting and could explain a few things.

[whippinghand1]

EnterTheWhip ************** whippinghand

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Which do you think is the most beneficial, sparring or chi sau?

Chi sao is more beneficial if your partner is another WC practitioner. If your partner is not WC, you better spar with him because he does not know chi sao.:D

[black and blue]

... having chatted to a WT chap from Sweden it is clear that they spar (light and full contact) a great deal.

Having chatted to people on the UK WT forum, it is clear that seldom spar.

Horses for courses.

[hunt1]

This debate is not Lineage dependent. It really points out the difference between those that study wing chun vs those that are or have learned wing chun. Some look into the system for answers some look outside the system. This problem is compounded when so many teachers holdback or give out information slowly. Look how long it takes people to get the wooden dummy and weapons in Leung Tings organization.

[yuanfen]

Miles-
Hunt 1 is correct.
Cant stereotype based on lineages.
My sifu speaks for himself.
I come from a decent wing chun family- but I
represent only myself.
In any lineage you can have uneven understanding
or competence in a given individual.
Chi sao - when done right- is far more appropriate and effective
than sparring (if one means wearing gloves and boxing or kick boxing type of sparring).
You can be effective by the right kind of sparring but IMO its better to do the right kind of chi sao(including very dynamic chi sao-when one is ready)
When done right wing chun skills are meant to be effective against any style not just other wc-ers.

Wing chun is applied physics with heightened perception and reflexive development-it is a style for all seasons. But wing chun was never meant for mass production.

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Miles-
Hunt 1 is correct.
Cant stereotype based on lineages.
My sifu speaks for himself.
I come from a decent wing chun family- but I
represent only myself.

I must concur with this. Additionally:


There are plenty from my own family-group who are strong advocates of "sparring." It is highly inaccurate to characterize others based on my personal perspectives.
Regardless of the chosen "term" our training definitely gets very intense, extremely "resisting," and highly random. Some people might be shocked at the intensity of engagement by some of my elders and seniors, by whatever name you wish to call it.
Having said that, I personally (and not speaking for my "lineage" or anyone else here) believe that there should still and always be some semblance of control, and it is at this juncture that I would draw a line between my perspective and what seems to be promoted by others at times. My opinion is based largely on my personal experience in learning, my analysis of risks and risk management, my overall goals and values, and my sense of ethics.
Even in working with other arts, which is not strictly chi sau, there is room for debate over what is a vigorous and seriously resisting workout vs. uncontrolled sparring or fighting.
The biggest dilemma in the debate is that there remains no definitive consensus on what is and is not sparring. Same word tossed around with different meanings even on this message board, underlying ideas flying right past each other in some cases. I have no illusion that we will come to any consensus on it either, but if we did, we'd probably have to re categorize some names on Miles' list.
I am an advocate for balance. My point on the sparring/chi sau debate remains that proportions will appropriately and sometimes necessarily vary for different individuals. It is my view, not a lineage-centric one.
I can debate for sparring almost as easily as against it. However, I believe the sparring advocacy here sufficiently promotes their perspective without my help, and again, I feel that balance is a good thing.
I'm not much a proponent of on-off viewpoints, labelling people, or slicing the world into us-and-them. The best way to label someone is by their name.
A sparring vs. chi sau list is far too simplistic to represent what I think on the matter, and I trust and hope the same is true for others.


If things were so simple as putting together a list, I wouldn't have so many things to write on and on about. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

Miles:

Again, it's not EITHER sparring OR chi sao - frequent amounts of both are important.

Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?

Baseball players sometimes take batting practice against machines that only throw fast balls - sometimes they ask batting practice pitchers to throw nothing but curve balls...

But then they get inot a REAL game against pitchers who might throw all kinds of pitches...

Why would they prefer one to the other when both sets of experiences are important to their development as a baseball player?

It's the same with Wing Chun; and in fact it is the same thing with just about any competitive "athletic" endeavor - drills that are preparatory AND real spontaneous competition.

[Ernie]

miles
this is how little i pay attention to lineage i train under gary lam for wing chun , i guess that puts me in the wsl camp . don't even know what all the abbrivations mean .
we don't '' spar'' at his school . it's all chi sau and disconnected entry's and drills .
later on gary will have us spar if we chose to . but only if he feels you have sufficient foundation and control.
i have sparred with him on occassion but it last only a few seconds and i end up on my ass or twisted up on the ground while he ask me what part of body i would like to lose:)
i stick and knife spar out side of class weekly i do this to build up my attributes '' speed ,timing , balance, endurance, sensitivity , footwork, and so on.
i used to spar in the ring alot mainly against boxers and muay thai guys . again this was on my own though gary allways encouraged me . i answered many of my own questions during these sessions, fear of getting hit , fear of standing infront of bigger guys , fear of actually hitting some one [ i used to always hold back]
all the sparring i do know is only for developing skill not for going ape s hit on people ,
i don't see chi sau and sparring as seperate entities they are halves of the same whole . one from in close were hand and body sensitivity are cultivated [chi sau]
the other from a few feet out were eyesensitivity and footwork and timing are cultivated .
later on i will work the ground for a few months just to gain senstivity there .
all part of places and ways humans fight . since we can't predict a fight or honestly simulate all the elemnts of a fight we can just place our selves in the positions were a fight can occur and add some resitience to become familier and adaptable so we don't freeze when we end up in a strange place .

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by whippinghand1
EnterTheWhip ************** whippinghand

Shouldn't it be whippinghands?

I'm surprised that we haven't seen the emergence of Sparringhand! LMAO

[Ultimatewingchun]

I spent a considerable amount of time with Moy Yat (8 years) and an even more considerable amount of time now in TWC with William Cheung (August will be 20 years) - so I will take Miles' bait and comment about lineage differences concering the ATTITUDE about chi sao and sparring, respectively...as regards the two lineages I have been a part of:

With Moy Yat it was almost exclusively about chi sao and an occasional san sao...but never about geared-up contact sparring with punching and kicking - as in fact Moy Yat was opposed to that - which I sometimes engaged in with John Cheng (Moy 4) privately - an invaluable experience for the both of us. (I mention his name for the benefit of those on this forum from the Moy Yat lineage).

With William Cheung there is a very different mix PERCENTAGE-WISE as regards time spent doing chi sao, cross arm, parallel arm and sparring; in other words, there's much more contact sparring (including being geared-up) then with Moy Yat.

It think that because chi sao/san sao can get very intense (and with light to moderate contact and even occasional heavier contact) that it becomes an ADDICTIVE drill: very seductive in that it "almost" simulates the kind of sparring I and others have been advocating - but as I have said ad infinitum by now - it doesn't cover enough bases. I am not singling out Moy Yat's way of doing things for criticism, by the other- because I know for a fact that MANY wing chun linegaes train basically the same way as he advocated.

To use the baseball analogy again: Chi sao/san sao provides great training against fastballs and curves...but what about the rest of the possible pitches that could be thrown at you?

There is not enough adequate preparation for them IMO, and too many false aguments made against geared-up contact sparring/kicking (ie.- it becomes "kickboxing")...NOT IF IT'S DONE RIGHT.

[PaulH]

Ernie,

I like your lucid and helpful post on the ongoing debate of best WC training. I concur with you that Gary is definitely into skill development first before sparring. In my case I find sparring with gloves is a very good feedback device on what works or not for you in such a controlled environment. You will then do further research to understand the principles, concepts, and the various changing factors associated with the seemingly unworkable skill to make it work for you at a later time. This is the most fun and challenging task both physically and mentally.

Regards,

[Miles Teg]

Hey well I might be wrong..............

But at least I got everyone to agree on something! You can thank me later......just kidding.


I am sorry for grouping people like that. It was just an observation I made that I wanted to take further to see if it was as I suspected. There is a slight pattern and just putting lineage debates aside I thought it might be interesting to explore this correlation (if it did in fact exist).

If we could all be grouped in this way then we would need to conclude that there is soemthing more than our own beliefs and opinions at work here. We would have to assume it came down to the contexts that we have been surrounding ourselves with.

* Is it what we have been continually told by sifu and sihings?

* Is it our exposure to both training methods and their respective effectiveness or lack of?

* Is it our own past/outside experiences (perhaps outside/before our current place of training) that influence our opinions and beliefs in this area? (e.g in my case I didnt have a good time with sparring in my Karate years)

[yuanfen]

Miles- two things;;;
1. completing your "list" (affiliations?))

Phil Redmond************ TWC


NTC******************** Ho Kam Ming
VingTsunstudent******** WSL
Alpha Dog**************Don Chi Sao
-----------------------------------------------
2. My coming down on the side of chi sao- is not out of ignorance of "sparring", "reality testing" working with "resisting opponents"
etc. I still think that strereotyping lineages is a problem. Thus if
a wing chun person is going to entera kick boxing contest-
find out the rules, learn them well and train and spar accordingly
so you can win the game.

[WCis4me]

Hi Miles,

I am OK with
Chi sao AND sparring.
Not one or the other.
I think they both are invaluable.

Regards,
Vicky

[Miles Teg]

Sorry!!! I think I made some other mistakes in that silly list as well.

Well I guess I should have said those who think it should be done in class as opposed to those who think it shouldnt and chi sau is a better use of that time that would be used for sparring.

[kj]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Well I guess I should have said those who think it should be done in class as opposed to those who think it shouldnt and chi sau is a better use of that time that would be used for sparring.

I can definitely agree with this. I firmly believe that precious Wing Chun class time should be spent on Wing Chun, with supplemental activities on one's own time as well as at one's own discretion and liability.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by kj


I can definitely agree with this. I firmly believe that precious Wing Chun class time should be spent on Wing Chun, with supplemental activities on one's own time as well as at one's own discretion and liability.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
I concur. Chi Sao during class, sparring outside of regular class time, with others that want to play :D

Regards,
Vicky

[Phil Redmond]

Chi sau and sparring in class are necessary. The Sifu can help correct things when you spar in class.

[whippinghand1]

The teacher does an injustice to the student and Wing Chun by advocating sparring.

[rubthebuddha]

back it up, whippy. an assertion by itself means nothing.

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
back it up, whippy. an assertion by itself means nothing. Only if you see it that way.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The injustice is actually thinking (and relating the thought to one's students) that one is actually learning a MARTIAL art WITHOUT sparring...there are are SO MANY excellent chi sao "players" on the planet who really couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag that it is truly embarassing and exasperating at times having to explain this "phenomena" about wing chun IN GENERAL to people outside the system who are fight savvy in one way or another.

Boxers, Thai boxers, karate, wrestling, jiu-jitsu - and Joe from down the street who just happens to be a good natural streetfighter. Many of these people have an unfortunate impression about wing chun after seeing some"wing chun chi sao champion" get his butt kicked.

[Ernie]

victor
sad but true as i was very amazed to learn from this forum , that there seems to be 2 wing chuns out there .
one just for the sake of preserving the art '' the chi sau masters ''
and the other were people use the art to acutally '' dare i be so bold to say it '' fight and train to fight by any and all means
and it would seem the twain shall never meet .
and oddly the first group '' the chi sau masters'' seem to have all the infinite wisdom of combat , every text book answer all fit into a nice neet little box '' the box of chi sau that is ''
yet they are dry land swimmers with the perfect swimming technique yet no idea of what the water is like go figure .
i asked my teacher of thei strange mind set and if sifu's should have some fight experience and i will pass on his answer '' would you rather learn to shoot from a guy that spends his life practiceing hitting stationary targets or only specific moving targets , or from the man that has been to war and learned to use this skill in the fog of war , which will have a deeper understanding ''
it was a bit more fortune cookieish than that but you get the idea.
infact he laughed and sain in the later stages of wing chun your ability to read your oppnents body gets so refined there is no need for contact you just sense the timing and open line and blow him out .
but that requires actual experience out of and away from chi sau , chi sau can become a crutch.
but like all things i guess each must walk there path.....

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by whippinghand1
Only if you see it that way. let's see here -- an assertion made by someone not shown to be an expert offered with no backup and no explanation. we're left with just an argument without a premise typed by an unknown person on an internet forum.

the witch trial on "quest for the holy grail" was more convincing. :rolleyes:

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
we're left with just an argument without a premise typed by an unknown person on an internet forum. I have not presumed to be anyone else....

[rubthebuddha]

never said you did. was merely pointing out that we're lacking any reason from you to agree.

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
never said you did. was merely pointing out that we're lacking any reason from you to agree. Here's a bit of help... Ask yourself whether you agree with the statement. If the answer is yes then ask yourself why. If the answer is no, then ask yourself "If I were a person that actually believed in this statement, what would the possible reasons be?"

[yuanfen]

Both Victor and Ernie (mistakenly methinks) seem to assume that they have a corner on experience instead of "swimming on dry land".


Ther is a lot of talking past each other on what good chi sao entails.

There are different kinds of simulation- sparring, chi sao etc...
but Ernie is correct- one choses their path- why not let ot go at that...rather than repeat the same old same old.


BTW did anyone see the Klitchko- Lewis fight? Self defense?

60 stitches for Klitchko alone. Lewis had a big gash across his nose.

And they did lots of "sparring" beore their fight.
Where is the self defense?

PS. Macho chest thumping- lots of it in these threads.!!!

[rubthebuddha]

i've posted the reasons why i don't believe the statement a couple times already, and it was mostly agreement with something other folks, such as victor, merry, etc. already said. same goes for your opinion. however, the jury is still out on this one, so i was hoping you'd add something new to the mix. that's the purpose of discussion, and i'm hoping you have more to offer than just assertion. having someone else answer your question for you doesn't do justice to your perspective.

joy: <thump><thump><ow>

[old jong]

I have seen lots of poor psychiatric patients who love to automutilate in my work. Many of them have "Boxer face" as a result of their self-punching or hitting the walls with their faces. Are these guys "tough"?...
It seems that they are after some endorphines discharge that follows pain naturaly.
There must be some relation to the boxers who come to enjoy being hitted.

[yuanfen]

rub the buddha sez:

joy: <thump><thump><ow>


((The Buddha smiles)))

[Ernie]

yuanfen
o.k. no more beating the dead horse [[ or is it horse stance]]
either way i hate both of them:)
how do you know your training works under pressure that is not from a wing chun way of attack[[ cuz that's all you get in class]]
if you have a better proven method , fill me in , i'll try anything just to see if there are results .
i could care less about the angle of tan's and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks ,
all i care about is two dudes square up one walks away the other gets carried out period .
all that other stuff is creme filling , made to fill the void of technitions that don't test that's why there are so many un proven perceptions .
no chest thumping , and i don't promote sparring to the point of stupidity '' alot of people seem to think in extremes like just because you spar you go all out and end up a veg. ]]
so how do you progessivly test your skills and make them adaptable under pressure .
be specific

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Ernie
i could care less about the angle of tan's and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks So what you're saying is that, in order to be successful in a "fight" you need muscle power.

[Ernie]

whipping boy
So what you're saying is that, in order to be successful in a "fight" you need muscle power.
maybe you do but i don't
by the way a ghost shouldn't speak just keep rattleing your chain

[yuanfen]

yuanfen
o.k. no more beating the dead horse [[ or is it horse stance]]
either way i hate both of them

((Which horse stance... and why do I need to know what you hate?))


how do you know your training works under pressure that is not from a wing chun way of attack[[ cuz that's all you get in class]]


((You seem to think you know what goes on in class))


if you have a better proven method , fill me in , i'll try anything just to see if there are results .

((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))


i could care less about the angle of tan's and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks ,

((You seem to have a superficial interest in wing chun))


all i care about is two dudes square up one walks away the other gets carried out period .

((Whats involved? Empty hand, weapons... what is the lay of the land-is it dry? raining? Circumstances can vary... reality varies))

all that other stuff is creme filling , made to fill the void of technitions that don't test that's why there are so many un proven perceptions .

((What and whose unproven perceptions are you talking about??))


no chest thumping , and i don't promote sparring to the point of stupidity '' alot of people seem to think in extremes like just because you spar you go all out and end up a veg. ]]

(Sensible point))


so how do you progessivly test your skills and make them adaptable under pressure .
be specific

((be specific... ? try a little civility in your posts first. Makes for a good conversation)))

[Ernie]

yuanfen
i am civil to those that are civil to me

((Which horse stance... and why do I need to know what you hate?))
you don't i was jokeing
((You seem to think you know what goes on in class))
no greater asssumption then you have about others sparring or of what i seem to be thinking ,
i can only go off what i read and from what i read most seem to follow the same old route forms,chi sau,more forms , more chi sau ,more forms more chi sau and so on. and the greatist thing is when i here the ''((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))
yet no one seems capable to break it down the just give general statements like some magic pill, sorry most wing chun people that i have come across suck , as the seem to stick to there traditional development . but the ones that step out of the safty net and test , those have been really good , thus i base much on this observation, and when i say good i mean very efficient in any arena and very adaptable , there wing chun is more alive and natural not just dead poses or trying to run people down with a blast or a posture . but this is the few hundered i have seen maybe there is another group under a rock some were with the magic pill .
((You seem to have a superficial interest in wing chun))
just the oppisite i don't get caught up in the superficial aspects of wing chun that beginers dable over . stance structure posstion feel angle and power are all very basic and personal no great mystery , i am only interest in application and adaptabilty in a live enviroment, or training methods that promote and test those skills
so i ask you to break down some of the methods you seem to feel are benificial to advance these skills and how you test them with out a open enviroment against a agressive opponent ,
not being sarcastic really curious ?
we allready now we have different approaches but i'm allways down to learn something new or different . so enlighten me

((Whats involved? Empty hand, weapons... what is the lay of the land-is it dry? raining? Circumstances can vary... reality varies))
exactly my point non of these issues are honestly refined and adressed in traditional chi sau, so how do you test and develop your adaptability ,
i train out side , in the park on the street with and with out weapons , multiple attackers ,sticks knives , rocks , broken bottles ,hell even a garden hose anything we can pick up and flow with , all this i do outside of class just to keep things real and honest , true you can't chose your street fight but you can become familier to adapting to strange situations
no if there is a nice clean easy way in chi sau to develop these skills by all means please share.

((What and whose unproven perceptions are you talking about??))
everything is unproven until you prove it for yourself until then you living off another persons word

don't mean to sound so harsh i just don't buy into any hype things have to be proven and tested not just theoretical or hand me down '' my sifu says crap''
i don't doubt that you have sparred a litttle but i'm sure we have different idea's on what sparring is it is as mutli layered as chi sau , if you are clever and have good people to work off, but your not into it fine how do you suplement it , and how do you know you can adapt to lines of attack that are not in chi sau , or being thrown by another guy that has worked just as hard at his type of fighting not some wing chun guy pretending to be a boxer , kicker and so on .
and if your not sure then fine no one is supposed to have all the answers but you answer in such a difinitive way ''((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))
like that's the end all but yet i don't hear you explain why it's so '' perfect ''
blanket statements don't fly ,
it's real easy to hide behind the skirt of wing chun just recite the sayings and repeat what sifu says , i used to be that way to in the begining it made everything so nice and neat but then i started testing it and was like ''wow'' that's a real jab or ''d amn'' that's a real thai kick , and then i started to realize thow i knew the motions and the theory and i was able to control and manipulate people in chi sau and everyone wopuld how good i was , well it was different in the real world , but under that pressure i learned and am still learning how to adapt and become natural so i express the wing chun vs. it trapping me by it's viual imagery.
whats your secret

[yuanfen]

yuanfen
i am civil to those that are civil to me

((Why not be civil from the start?))

yet no one seems capable to break it down the just give general statements like some magic pill, sorry most wing chun people that i have come across suck , as the seem to stick to there traditional development .


((On the contrary- most dont do very "traditional" things---there are chains of people who have been exposed very little to good wing chun and pass on undigested made up things. The popularity of wing chun is a real minus.I agree that most dont do it well))

i am only interest in application and adaptabilty in a live enviroment, or training methods that promote and test those skills

((Deep understanding of principles and application and testing are all important.))


so i ask you to break down some of the methods

(These things are best shown in person ))


everything is unproven until you prove it for yourself until then you living off another persons word

don't mean to sound so harsh i just don't buy into any hype things have to be proven and tested not just theoretical or hand me down '' my sifu says crap''

((I dont hype, I dont sell and I dont hide behind quoting sifu))


i don't doubt that you have sparred a litttle

\( alittle?- now thats patronising))

))but i'm sure we have different idea's on what sparring is it is as mutli layered as chi sau , if you are clever and have good people to work off, but your not into it fine how do you suplement it ,

((Clever?))

and how do you know you can adapt to lines of attack that are not in chi sau ,

((therein lies the rub... from my perspective, practice and experience- the full chi sao curriculum covers more lines of attack
than other known systems and sparring. If there was one that covers lines better than wing cun- I would be lining up for lessons))

or being thrown by another guy that has worked just as hard at his type of fighting not some wing chun guy pretending to be a boxer , kicker and so on .

((Sure- a combination of exposure to good wing chun and the practitioners own qualities, character and experience and confidence in their art have to be meshed in order to deal with competent people in other styles.))


'blanket statements don't fly ,

((Net communications do have their limitations.))

it's real easy to hide behind the skirt of wing chun just recite the sayings and repeat what sifu says ,


((Sorry- I dont do that))

i used to be that way to in the begining it made everything so nice and neat but then i started testing it and was like ''wow'' that's a real jab or ''d amn'' that's a real thai kick ,

((I am glad that you have evolved.Yes there are folks who have led a sheltered life. But-I do know whata good jab is and whata good kick is- and what lines they are coming in on- because of (there's the word) the whole variety of chi sao experience))


whats your secret

(( Fairly good Understanding of wing chun principles and dynamics plus practice plus experience. No magic wand))

[Ernie]

yuanfen
((therein lies the rub... from my perspective, practice and experience- the full chi sao curriculum covers more lines of attack
now here is a starting point ,
does your chi sau cover high low high ?
were in a person can give pressure on the high line then instantly drop th the low with a single or double leg tackle just blasting through your stance with full athletic blitz ,
or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,
or weapons ?
have to make this short i'm on my way out ,
and if it does then explain and if it doesn't then why not ?
i do believe wing chun offers the answers but i don't believe most will ask themselves the hard questions to find those answers ,
these are two off the top of my head

[yuanfen]

yuanfen

does your chi sau cover high low high ?

((The chi sau skills do indeed))


were in a person can give pressure on the high line then instantly drop th the low with a single or double leg tackle just blasting through your stance with full athletic blitz ,

((a good chance that the guy will fall down or get hurt. Wing chun is not primarily depenednt on athleticism. Good wing chun should surprise someomne depending primarily on athletic skills))

or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,

((Enough chi sao and you sense the differnces in timing between the two guys...simultaneity is an artificial construct often))


or weapons ?

((Bazooka, a car? Uzi?wing chun helps sharpen your alertness and wits... and if your number is up- you can lose))


have to make this short i'm on my way out ,
and if it does then explain and if it doesn't then why not ?
i do believe wing chun offers the answers but i don't believe most will ask themselves the hard questions to find those answers ,
these are two off the top of my head

((Sure- good wing chun folks are not or should not be smug about their wing chun))

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,
or weapons ?

This kind of argument is presented a lot. I am always curious, how many of lesser size and skill even with empty hands can one assuredly handle? How many of greater size and skill? Can a person best even just one person with same size and skill as their own? If one identical person cannot be handled, what assurance is there of handling many? How many with sticks, knives, broken bottles and guns? What kind of training could possibly make such guarantees as these, and how far will is one willing to go in an attempt to realize it? Rhetorical questions of course, and only for purposes of contemplative discussion.

I don't believe that hyper emphasis on realism is entirely as pragmatic as its made out to be, save exceptional cases such as war where the risks of tremendous loss are almost a certainty. Sometimes, if examined closely enough, perspectives may be more due to what one wants, enjoys, or fears for more personal reasons rather than reflecting the most prudent investment for managing external risks.

Let's face it, some people train because they like to fight. Some people don't like to fight but train because they don't enjoy being willing victims either. And there is an amalgam of other reasons in between extremes.

IMHE, prevention is generally the best investment, if personal protection is the real issue. Training at the shooting range can be a good supplementary investment, if protection is the primary concern. For personal protection purposes, the stuff in between is icing on the cake, IMHO, though fortuitously and often enough offers sufficient other benefits to make the overall effort and investment worthwhile.

In no way do I view martial arts training as my primary strategy or means of self protection, whether against one or many.

I can only beg forgiveness for my particular perspective on realism. Even a century ago the boxers took a lesson in realism. I am reasonably certain that my opinions and conclusions are not altogether novel.

Just thinking out loud as usual.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[PaulH]

Kathy,

Prevention is always better than Ernie's adventurous meddlings. But just for the sake of comtemplative musings, allow me to be your devil's advocate for a brief moment...

What exactly is realism? According to the devil's dictionary, it is "the art of depicting nature as it is seen by toads. The charm suffusing a landscape painted by a mole or a story written by a measuring-worm" There are always plenty of noisy and rational disagreements among toads on who is more accurate...

Ernie, on the other hand, is one of those restless trouble makers who dares to seek "truth" in conflicts. He delights in contradictions which drive "a person or a community from the first awareness of negation to a resetting on a new truth. Few people have been comfortable living without some mode of establishing what is true, right, better or more beautiful. Yet progress can come by letting go of one truth to explore another. This exploration is the heart of the dialectic. - Will Mc Whinney"

I find only a few people so far understand Ernie and his messages. Just my toady sense to you on the variety of realism.

Regards,

[Ernie]

yuanfen

((Enough chi sao and you sense the differnces in timing between the two guys...simultaneity is an artificial construct often))
here is a common misconception, were you assume you will be able to do this , but the reality is you will lack the adjustability especially when there is multiple targets and elevation changes '' the center disappears '' and for that split second while the person is trying to adjust to a line of attack and intesity of attack he has never felt or seen before he or she is vulnerable .
the solution spend time dialing in your skills to these types of attacks from people who can really give them to you especially athletic people that have good body sensitivity like football players or collage wrestlers , to asume you will allways have the upper hand or shock them with your basic wing chun skills is a large assumption , like the fighter saying that won't ever happen to me syndrone.
the problem is most people don't like to lose and by placeing your self in unfamilier and uncomfortable situations you will lose and fall and have to learn to recover your position. then and only then can you expand your sensitivity and emotional stability to become adaptable beyond the '' norm''
but it takes accepting the dirty little possibility that you can and will get smoked , you have to leave your ego at the door and just flow with what ever comes your way ,
and if your chi sau skills are all there cracked up to be then you should look forward to such training situations since you allready have the answer and of course you will never falter right.
you see i love to explore the inherent weakness in wing chun '' the human condition'' and i see it's strength as it's weakness we tend to get a little arrogant and often this creates blinders .
wy waste time talking about what we know is good an works '' hell it works '' look into the stuff people have a hard time with across the board ,
closing the gap, good boxers , ground fighters , multiple attackes and weapons ,
by investigating the these elements and alowwing our selves to fail and search for solutions in out selves and the art we inturn give back to the art by subjecting our bodies and minds to the testing ground , is this not how the art was created and progressed by look at what was out there and searching for better solutions .
that's why i get bummed out on people that don't take those extra steps and push the training , it's like there vutures living of the dead carcas of those that bleed before them taking credit and enjoying this great art but giving nothing back.
and then they get all huffy with those that are atleast trying to test and expand like it was a sin '' very odd thinking in my book''
look i know many of us are weekend warriors and have families and jobs and are generally happy with the status quo,
but if your talking about combat anything and everything is viable , you have to accpt that you can rip some ones eye out or stomp there head into the ground because this is what they are trying to do to you ,
once you accept this and are honest with yourself then your training horizens will expand .

((Sure- good wing chun folks are not or should not be smug about their wing chun))
then why are so many lacking in detail when the answer question , about actual fight training , they will talk all day about the safe stuff ,
like what year did yip man first start losing his hair and how was he standing when it happened , or did he pee standing up and which hand did he use , they will get all detailed about that . but ask them how they specificly train there skills balance speed power adaptability sensitivity , and were there best results come from , suddenly they dumm up and roll out the blanket statments .
like the whole well chi sau thing . to general break it down share a little , it's like people don't want to put there personal experiences out ther cus they might get blasted so what .
it's your experience no one can take that from you . and you might actually help someone

yuanfen
thank's for hanging in there and putting up with me through these q & a

kathy
happy 4th
i sum it up by working a small percentage of your training in the stress over load enviroment [ multiple ,weapons ,terrian changes , and so on]
you are not so much making this your primary objective and you are supposed to lose ,
it helps you by allowing yout to experience these situations and inturn calm your mind and learn to relax and flow even in the face of '' simulated death''
once you can become calm and function in a overwhelming situation you are extremely calm when facing just one person , you have been through worse manny times , faceing one person becomes a lot less threatning from a mental aspect after you have spent time on the end of two or three .
in my experience after doing multiples and getting through the fog of 6 hands and legs raining down on me , when i squared up with one dude it was '' man this is easy''
and my timing was better i was more relaxed and not so emotionally connected just real calm .
but this is and should only be a small part of your training cus tomuch of this will build sloppy tactics you will get in the habit of running when you shold have stood your ground but if you understand what your getting out of it ,
it defenitly helps .
plus you find your self in those nasty spots that can happen in the street , on the ground , having to recover balance and position , eating punches and kicks , getting takled from behind while your focused on the one in front of you , this is all real fights that can happen in any venue you might be at , bar concert , club , market .
of course prevention is the best weapon but being familier with a bad position and being adaptable and able to recover is also good ttools to have .

paul
one o=f these days you need to explain me to myself :D

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Ernie
you see i love to explore the inherent weakness in wing chun '' the human condition'' and i see it's strength as it's weakness we tend to get a little arrogant and often this creates blinders.I think you hit the nail on the head with the "human weakness" factor. The only problem with Wing Chun as with any martial art is the human weakness. Simply because the Wing Chun training that you've been exposed to does not suit your needs, does not mean that all Wing Chun is that way. It's understood that what you have available to you just doesn't cut it, but that is not to say that Wing Chun (as it is meant to be) is deficient.


look into the stuff people have a hard time with across the board, closing the gap, good boxers , ground fighters , multiple attackes and weapons,It's all in there, son. Perhaps your training doesn't, but mine does. And it sounds like yuanfen's does too.

The other factor is time. Too many people want results right away. The JKD way (or similar approaches to training) are perfect for these types. But don't knock the system, until you've really done it. Any teacher of a martial art (not various), who really understands their art, will say it takes time to understand. If that's not for you, fine. Simply admit it, but don't knock the system. And don't assume you know what Wing Chun is or is not until you've put in the time.


in out selves and the art we inturn give back to the art by subjecting our bodies and minds to the testing groundThere are many ways to test Wing Chun. There are a myriad of drills and exercises (not just chi sau) that prepare you for the real thing, whatever you think the real thing is.


is this not how the art was created and progressed by look at what was out there and searching for better solutions.
The art as regressed considerably. Thus contributing to your attitudes about Wing Chun.

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:here is a common misconception, were you assume you will be able to do this , but the reality is you will lack the adjustability especially when there is multiple targets and elevation changes '' the center disappears '' and for that split second while the person is trying to adjust to a line of attack and intesity of attack he has never felt or seen before he or she is vulnerable .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes yes Ernie. The individual not just the art is the key in
an actual situation and you are preaching the obvious- at least to me.

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by PaulH
Ernie, on the other hand, is one of those restless trouble makers who dares to seek "truth" in conflicts. Many of us here are doing the same. But Ernie's truth is not automatically mine simply because we supposedly practice the same art. If he needs to keep banging into the door that he opens to find truth, that's his path.

[PaulH]

Michael,

Actually Ernie's perspective is based on the assumption that there is no single system including his that can adequately cover all aspects of reality. For the sake of discussion, I'm going to borrow the ideas of Mitroff in his well-known "Multiple Realities Model" and applied to WC according to Ernie.

First of all, from a quick perusal of his numerous posts I don't see that Ernie's real purpose is to come up with a single way or system that solves all problems. It is rather to allow himself to act. It is not the truth of his system or his views he hold that dictate his modus operandi. But only through action, he comes to learn of the "working truth" of his multiple views model, where "truth" is defined by the ability to respond not only to one's immediate problem, but to anticipate future problems, and thus gain an invaluable edge on working on them before they have gotten out of control.

He observes from his own experience and reflection that when WC methods appropriate for well-structured or bounded problems are applied inappropriately to ill-structure or messy ones in the "real" world, the result is often disastrous. Thus he contends that the solution and hope lie in the ability of each WCner to view problems from multiple views and multiple disciplines. It is his reality and his bone of contention.

Regards,

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by PaulH
It is his reality and his bone of contention. Exactly.

[old jong]

It promotes Wing Chun skills (I practice Wing Chun! ;) ) I don't want to be a boxer,I don't want to be anything else so I practice Wing Chun.

The proper practice of Chi Sau and other Wing Chun practices teach everything that is important about lines,timings,defenses and offenses.Or....You could practice against all kinds of boxers,all kinds of bar brawllers,all kind of street punks,all sizes,righties,lefties,men,extra-terrestrials,schoolyards bullies,etc,etc...There is no limits in being ready for everything. ;)

[yuanfen]

But but old jong- you are not being realistic- you sure that you
dont want to give up or cut back on your classical mess and swimming on dry land. Dont you want to spar with headgear, gloves, groin protector, chest
and shin pads?

Be real- visualize-- you are going down a dark street with a bag of groceries in your hand and you are simultaneously attacked
by 3 burly men-- one wearing a U of Miami football shirt- he goes for your knees, a second is wearing a University of Oklahoma wrestling sweatshirt -he goes for your ankles, the third has scar tissue on his face and appears to be on PCP- he goes for the back of your head.. all of a sudden you are on the ground on your chest
and someone is on your back- holding a knife at your throat ...
and the others have you spreadeagled..


what would you do? Be specific.

you gotta get real- practice different scenarios against athletic
resisting opponents... or else it's Jesus or Buddha time or Kismet!

Nothing wrong with some of those Asian arts- but you gotta think- can the angle of the tan sao really save you?

[Ernie]

old jong
extra-terrestrials
d amn how do you pak sau something with eight legs;)

whipping whatever,

Simply because the Wing Chun training that you've been exposed to does not suit your needs, does not mean that all Wing Chun is that way. It's understood that what you have available to you just doesn't cut it, but that is not to say that Wing Chun (as it is meant to be) is deficient

that's funny you know who i study with , i have never keep that a secret , so i doubt very much that there is any wing chun element i have not seen or been exposed to.
who do you study with , that you would assume such things , but of course you won't answer will you ,
wing chun on paper is pretty darn near perfect but people will never be we will fail ,falter ,lose focus and be caught off gaurd
i am willing to accept this and train with in the relm of my personal weakness ,
your right my path can only be mine , as i only know myself , but to know oneself you must be honest with your self , can you be honest hmmm i wonder.....

yuanfen

Yes yes Ernie. The individual not just the art is the key in

yes yes easy words to say ah but the doing breaking out of the mold , looking at yourself , testing yourself to find your limitations , embracing those limitations and build off them . that is true growth and true freedom.

paul
are you sure your not dr. kavorkian

to all
or right since this is a chi sau vs. sparring thread
step up to the plate and share some of the most benificial drills nd applications that have helped you solve the problems of line familierzation, closeing the gap . high low high, multiple attackers
ground recovery.
emotional over load and control ,

try not to state the obvious , i know the seeds to the solutions are in the system ,
closing the gap= second form and knife vs. pole
recovery = third form and dummy
line familierzation = chi sau and interception drills
high low high ?
multiple attackers ?
ground recovery ?
i gave some of the general answers i would expect those who don't like to share details will give just to get past the obvious
open up and share some of the specific drills / concepts/training that has helped you on a personal level.
perhaps you might help some one else

[old jong]

Oups!...And all of that times,I was training in case of an aliens abduction!...:eek:

[Ernie]

yuanfen
Nothing wrong with some of those Asian arts- but you gotta think- can the angle of the tan sao really save you?
nope you will die:eek:

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Ernie
that's funny you know who i study with, i have never keep that a secret , so i doubt very much that there is any wing chun element i have not seen or been exposed to.I'm not concerned with who you train with. I'm sure I'd find out if I did a search on the forum. But name dropping is not training. And skill is not simplied bestowed by one's association with a lineage. I'm only responding to what you yourself have posted.


who do you study with , that you would assume such thingsAgain, the assumptions were made based on what you yourself have expressed about your Wing Chun.


wing chun on paper is pretty darn near perfect but people will never be we will fail ,falter ,lose focus and be caught off gaurd i am willing to accept this and train with in the relm of my personal weakness Then keep it at that and reserve the Wing Chun criticisms. You said it yourself. It's hard to be honest with yourself. Nobody likes to think that they are bad at Wing Chun. They'd rather knock the art.

[yuanfen]

Old Jong-- there are some folks near Carlsbad Caverrns in southeastern New Mexico who claim that they have seen their
space ships.

Its good to be prepared. Unless- like that famous movie on the History of the World--its good to be da king.

You gotta be ready for all sorts of things... when I lived (for a year) in New Haven Connecticut- a guy took me into his confidence and showed me his arsenal in the basement--- ready-
just in case "them" from NYC came his way and came after him.. Our fears are our prisons.

[old jong]

I have heard that these guys are rather small.Does this mean that we should practice for low attacks?...;)

[old jong]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Our fears are our prisons.


Exactly!...

[yuanfen]

Old Jong=


even paranoids have real enemies they say.
Pardon the old joke---
relevant to your line of work-

a neurotic builds glass houses, a paranoids live in them and
psychiatrists collect the rent from both.

[Ernie]

to much whipping hand can cause blindness:) soryy couldn't help myselfI'm not concerned with who you train with. I'm sure I'd find out if I did a search on the forum. But name dropping is not training. And skill is not simplied bestowed by one's association with a lineage. I'm only responding to what you yourself have posted.
figured you wouldn't step out of the shadows ,maybe one day when you express your training and skill development we can have a two sided conversation until then .....................

[Alpha Dog]

How is Bert's lap da?

:D

[Ernie]

alpha
almost as good as the cookie monster but no were near the count

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Ernie
figured you wouldn't step out of the shadows
I am in the light, Ernie. But it seems you are in the dark.

maybe one day when you express your training and skill development we can have a two sided conversation until then ..................... I'm more interested in a 3 dimensional discussion. You would have to step into the light for that possibility.

[Ernie]

whip creme said
I am in the light, Ernie. But it seems you are in the dark
what ever you say ghost boy

[Ultimatewingchun]

The most subtle and possibly the absolute worst example of chest thumping is attacks by the so-called wing chun purists on the practices of those who are really trying to use and teach wing chun as a MARTIAL art - which means frequent sparring is a prerequisite, in addition to chi sao.

This chest thumping comes in the form of the false claim that chi sao practice is enough to make them a real martial artist capable of fighting, ignopring the fact that chi sao is a "game" compared to real fighting...a game, the glorification of which the purist chest thumpers who can't or won't fight HIDE BEHIND.

Ernie is right when he called chi sao a crutch, and the criticism of sparring is truly laughable because it is little more than the denial of one's own escapist tendencies. This attitude toward chi sao and sparring is acceptable if one lives (lived) in a culture where high quality western boxing, wrestling, Thai-boxing, karate, jiu jitsu, mixed martial arts, etc. is (was) virtually non-existent...

but the chest thumping sparring critics who glorify in their chi sao champion status - who are aware of the modern versions of the martial arts listed above are not acceptable - because they are guilty of a false pride that needs to be exposed.

Without frequent sparring one is not a MARTIAL artist - one is a dabbler - hiding under the disguise of a "purist".

[whippinghand1]

Chest thumping? Coming from you, that is hilarious.

I don't believe that "the purists" (and thank you for that) believe that chi sau is the only way. What is being suggested is that there are numerous exercises/drills including the primary one(chi sau) that prepare you for the real situation. If you don't have the resources, it's understandable that you would need to fill in the gap with other things.

Since the purists are the only ones who seem to get that and retain the essence of Wing Chun, they are the only ones suitable to teach Wing Chun. Anything else is something else.

Train as you willl. Teach as you will. Just don't call it Wing Chun, because you really don't know what that means.

[Ernie]

Victor
who would you rather have your back in a street /bar fight ?
some out of shape chi sau master if the fight last more then 30 seconds will pass out from exhaustion ,that has never been in the fog of a sloppy fight were arms legs chairs bottles and just about anything that isn't nailed to the floor is flying around .
or
some one with good chi sau sensitivity skills, good shape and endurance , 1000 hours logged on the end of aggressive opponents , ground and weapons back ground ,
or
or so rough neck streetfighter who lives on the edge everyday
or a good old school boxer
or a wrestler/
or a thai fighter
were would you place your bet ,

[kj]

Too much stereotyping.

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

kathy
i type in mono that's why my spelling sucks:)

[whippinghand1]

The street fighter of course.

But what you are missing from your list is the Wing Chun master, one who understands how the Wing Chun training all comes together.

[Ultimatewingchun]

whippinghand1:

It is you, and a bunch of others like yourself, such as yuanfen - who was the first to my recollection to start using terms like "chest-thumpers" and "purists" - who shouldn't be teaching anything called MARTIAL arts...

and by the way - these other "drills" you're talking about are still just drills - been there, done that - THEY CAN NEVER TAKE THE PLACE OF SPARRING.

You people are kidding nobody but yourselves - you can't fight because you WON'T do the necessary work....

[old jong]

Originally posted by kj
Too much stereotyping.

Regards,
- kj

Way to much!

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
and by the way - these other "drills" you're talking about are still just drills - been there, done that - THEY CAN NEVER TAKE THE PLACE OF SPARRING. It's hard for you to say, seeing as you don't know what these drills are. Don't forget, your limitations are not anyone else's. Sparring is a game.


You people are kidding nobody but yourselves - you can't fight because you WON'T do the necessary work.... Again, everyone has their personal limitations. You've got the laborer's mentality. That's okay. You're dealing with it. You're doing what you need to do. Don't forget Wing Chun is NOT for the common folk.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Whippinghand1...Enterthewhip...Wingchun****...what ever your name is:

You're a total fool who is ALWAYS afraid to come out of the shadows of the internet - much the same way that you're afraid to come out of the shadows of chi sao and into the real world of MARTIAL arts - where actual sparring and fighting takes place.

So long...moron...no more time to waste on you!

[hunt1]

Ernie sorry to say this but the correct answer is not on your list.
The most dangerous fighter is the one that is not afraid. Not crazy like those people who just like to fight. The person that has no fear and is able to stay calm when faced with a situation. The person with true confidence in his abilities. The person that is soft spoken and doesnt threaten he just does. This type of person can come form any of the backgrounds listed.
To weigh in on the usefullness of sparring. Sparring teaches one thing better than most other training methods, to overcome the fear of fighting and the fear of being hit. Being hit hard is nothing it is the fear of being hit hard that is everything. Once you have overcome the fear factor the usefullness of sparring diminishes.

Your post also points out that athletic ability plays a big roll in a fight and indeed it does however one of the key things to be learned from Chi Sao is how and when to use energy. If you learn how to truly control the use of your energy you need not rely on athletic ability and stamina of course the more you have the better off you are.

[Ernie]

hunt
Ernie sorry to say this but the correct answer is not on your list.
the attributes you discribe can belong to any one on the list i gave , that's the mental game and much more important than any specfic skill or style ,
but i listed general fighting styles that have different training approaches , some more mental then others while some develop high pain tolerance and physical ability,
the mental coolness in battle must can only be gained by getting yourself in a ton of fights[ the short lived street fighter] or pushing your training to the nearest emotional equivelant ,[ boxer or thai fighter ]

whipper snapper
wing chun master [ ok that in and of itself is a joke ] there is no such thing it would imply some supreme knowledge and that is just arrogant and stupid but someone buys into that well good luck getting slapped by the rigid rod of reality someday.
better to most wing chun teachers have gotten lazy and are out of shape , since wing chun's in herent effective ness breeds the why bother getting in shape mentallity , but that is death in a long fight or in a group fight situation were you need conditioning and wind beyond skill.
basically if your out of shape your supreme skill is only good for a shoret burst and then your through , and if you honestly believe every fight will be a simple one on one situation with a one two knock out you have obviously never been in a fight .and are living in disneyland .

the street fighter would have the best mental make up but in general won't be efficient ,
the thai dude would be in good shape and have the proper conditioniing and commitment , he will be able to take the pain and dish it out , but will fall short in a multiple or ground game , also will have a bit of over commitment .
the boxer will have great conditioning ,pain tolerence , and footwork , but in a bar fight were there are things in the room and tables and chairs flying around he might get smothered ,
ground fighters , well in a one on one yes but in a cluttered inviroment were there might be broken glass on the floor and multiple fights , not so good ,
for me it would have the be a toss between the seasoned street fighter or the well rounded fighter
the chi sau master would be in my mind my last choice in a street fight unless he is in shape and has some fight experience .

if it were my life on the line that's how i would go ,but it is a no wrong answer question.

[KenWingJitsu]

Amazing.

Still.

LOL.

Shall I begin? Other than "Ernie and Victor are correct". And "whippingpost and old jong etc" are incorrect what else should I add.

How about a detailed descrition of what sparring is? Maybe another thread.

The funny thing is how many people I know of who thought they could fight because they did chi-sao, yet, when the time came to either spar or fight, they truly got their @sses hande to them. It is common in WC. I bet some of you know these people...in fact I bet some of you might be these people. No matter. I know of at least one person who changed his training around because of such an experience.

[Marky]

"Other than "Ernie and Victor are correct". And "whippingpost and old jong etc" are incorrect what else should I add" KWJ

Uh, you meant to say "I agree with Ernie and Victor and strongly disagree with whipping--(whatever) and old jong, etc", yes? You would be extremely hard-pressed to prove that someone is correct.... prove it to anyone but yourself, that is. I happen to disagree with everyone, to a degree... and I feel that any (ANY) position, if properly defended, can be an effective way of learning martial arts.

"The funny thing is how many people I know of who thought they could fight because they did chi-sao, yet, when the time came to either spar or fight, they truly got their @sses hande to them. It is common in WC. I bet some of you know these people...in fact I bet some of you might be these people. No matter. I know of at least one person who changed his training around because of such an experience." KWJ

Though I don't find it too funny, I've beaten the snot out of several dozen very "good" (relative to years of experience) boxers, kickboxers, and Brazilian jiujutsu guys over the last year. Some practiced twice as long as I have (several were instructors... and sadly, still are), some practiced just as long, some practiced for less time. All of them were very well-conditioned and muscular and probably had better endurance than I do/did, and they definitely sparred when I did not, but I STILL beat them. I did not count these matches as sparring because we were trying to beat each other, not practice. Most of these matches were over within 5 seconds, and 10 seconds at the longest (I had to back the kickboxers into a corner before they would fight).

And in defense of your statement, I've seen those same boxers wipe the floor with wing chun people and others, and oftentimes, they do so with relative ease! But beyond sparring and chi sao, the boxers and I agreed that mentality is the deciding factor. Though that has nothing to do with lineage, sparring, or chi sao, maybe another thread will be started sometime about the importance of aggressive mentality in a fight (and what promotes it. Like sparring, for example).

[KenWingJitsu]

You would be extremely hard-pressed to prove that someone is correct.... prove it to anyone but yourself, that is. I have proven what I say to myself and others. My statements come from experience, not from theories and mystical meaningless words or phrases (something prevalent around here).


Though I don't find it too funny, I've beaten the snot out of several dozen very "good" (relative to years of experience) boxers, kickboxers, and Brazilian jiujutsu guys over the last year. Some practiced twice as long as I have (several were instructors... and sadly, still are), some practiced just as long, some practiced for less time. All of them were very well-conditioned and muscular and probably had better endurance than I do/did, and they definitely sparred when I did not, but I STILL beat them. I did not count these matches as sparring because we were trying to beat each other, not practice. Most of these matches were over within 5 seconds, and 10 seconds at the longest
Ok..I'll bite. Can you give some details? WHat kind of matches were these? how did you know they were boxers kickboxers jiu jitsu guys etc. How did you fight them? Agrred upon, or surprise attacks? How did you 'beat the snot out of them'?

[Ernie]

ken
now be nice we all have our trophy stories about how we pressured people back into a wall or corner , from our first few years in wing chun , i would rather look at the ones that didn't go as planned ,
anybody with forward pressure can drive some one back in a few seconds but if it were real would the power and timing and adaptability been to really stop them ,
marky not saying that you didn't kick a$$ but when you work off really good people with fighting minds and spirit you know that the fight isn't really over until it's over .

often just getting them in a controlled position isn't enough , you eventually have to let them go or drop them ,
but either way at least you stepped up to the plate and are gaining experience got to respect that .

[Edmund]

Marky,

I think this could be just a case of who you train with rather than sparring vs not sparring, chi sao. The right teacher and training partners can provide the skills needed to beat the boxers and kickboxers you have faced.

Not everyone who spars is automatically given @ss kicking abilities. They still need technical guidance and correction from teachers. Sparring is a method of practicing applying techniques but you can't polish a turd.

If there is a hole in a boxer's game, it doesn't matter how much they spar if they don't address it. Doesn't mean that sparring has nothing to offer as a training method.

[Marky]

Hi KWJ,


(((((((For anyone who might read this other than KWJ, I want you to know it's just some experiences I've had with other martial arts/artists while practicing wing chun. I only included it at his request, not because I'm trying to brag. so if that kind of stuff doesn't interest you, I suggest you skip the whole thing, because it's a LONG POST!!! I don't want to bore you all to tears.)))))))

I'm glad to share some of the specifics. The school I practice at is owned by a guy who teaches kickboxing, and there's a guy under the same roof who teaches Brazilian Jiujutsu, another who teaches boxing, and another who teaches wing chun. So for that reason, it's a good place to get all kinds of experience. I only practice wing chun, however, but other people get to see me practice a little, and I get to see them, so about a year ago we started having some matches. And of course, we all do it for the sake of experience, and we're all supposed to be friendly, but of course having four martial arts, and four instructors, and all of their studends in the same place at the same time leaves some people feeling like they have something to prove. Actually, it was the kickboxers who first started asking me for matches because they wanted to show me that my "slapping hands" stuff was worthless (a couple of the kickboxers tried wing chun for awhile, and that's exactly how they saw our practice).

So as far as specifics go for the kickboxers, I agreed to wear kickboxing gloves so we could hit with equal power. They REFUSED to wear anything other than standard kickboxing gloves, so I agreed to wear the same. The first guy I had a match with felt more like a sparring match at first, because I wasn't aggressive enough! I would try to close the gap, and he would step back just as fast. Though in my defense, he still didn't manage to land kicks. finally I got so sick of it that I just stood in place, and every time he made a move on me, I would come in at the same time once he was committed. That worked well since the guy wasn't used to it. So after three minutes of goofing off, we agreed to go again, and I decided I would be more aggressive from that point on. So when the bell rang I walked right up to him and continued to do so until he couldn't back up. Then he tried to kick me, I stepped out of the way and hit him a bunch of times. When he resisted, I would go around his resistance and hit him again. Finally he was standing on the tips of his toes in the corner of the room and I grabbed his arm and threw him to the floor and put my foot over his face. I helped him up and he didn't want to go anymore, so we stopped. Matches with kickboxers afterwards were surprisingly similar, though I went on the offensive from the outset.

Also, the kickboxers tried being aggressive after that first match, but I didn't care about getting hit, and so by some cosmic irony, I didn't get hit. As far as anything more specific, I can say they threw roundhouse kicks, axe kicks, straight (snap?) kicks, and I blocked them as I stepped in, or I stepped around them. When they faked, I continued to go in. But since they would never attack my legs by their rules, I can't say how I would do against muay thai guys/girls!

Eventually I ended up in a match with the instructor. As soon as it began, I walked toward him, and he stomped his lead foot down (trying to make me back off, I guess), and I stepped up and hit him in the face twice and he fell over. But I think he fell because he wasn't expecting me to keep coming, not because I hit him that hard. So we went for a little while longer. He's very good at raising his kicking leg and deciding on any kick he wants from that position, based on where his opponents hands are. But by the time his knee was raised, I was gum saoing his thigh and it didn't matter. Again, this just wasn't something the kickboxers do to each other, so he wasn't prepared for it.

After the boxers watched me with a couple kickboxers some of them wanted to have matches with me. I told them that I would put on boxing gloves, but that I wasn't going to fight like we were in a boxing match and make it an endurance test. They agreed to try and end things fast, but I had to agree not to throw any kicks below the waist (like I was going to throw any above the waist). I had met the very first guy I "sparred" with on that very night, so we were both nervous. He was one of those big buff guys too, so I was put to shame by him in that department. The bell rang, we approached each other. He threw a distancing jab and I stepped inward and to the side and hit him in the chest. I didn't check his rear hand so he tried to punch me, and I gum sau'd it (it wasn't extended very far) and elbowed him across the face. Not with too much power, but he ended up with a cut above his eye and he was out of it for a few seconds. So we stopped the match there. After that, any of the boxers I had matches with tried all sorts of stuff, from more traditional well-distanced entries to just running in and trying to pound me to he||. Again, sometimes they would push in one direction or another, and I would just let them go and keep going for the center (huen sau's, outside whips, inside whips, that kind of stuff). Two highlights of experience with the boxers was that I got them with a lot of drilling punches to their sides with inside facing, and I would get them with a lot of hooks the same way. Two times I knocked out boxers with hooks, but it was UNINTENTIONAL and the blackouts were INCREDIBLY SHORT. And the other boxers watched the matches (except for the first guy), so they knew how I was and had plenty of opportunities to put me in my place if they had that ability (I sparred with six boxers. I sparred with two of them three times, and the other four I sparred with two times).

Okay, that's two out of three! The BJJ guys watched these matches also, and I started having matches with four practicioners about four months ago. HOWEVER, years ago I SPARRED with a friend of mine who is a BJJ guy. He took me down twice, so I learned a good lesson back then. So before I would do anything with these guys I told them that I wasn't doing things by BJJ rules, and if they wanted to have these matches, I would do what it took to stay on my feet, aside from crotch shots, biting off ears, etc. So one of them agreed and we had a match. That being said, the first of these four guys I sparred with (we were wearing very small, very light gloves, but I'm not sure of the weight off-hand) ended up with an elbow to the face. Two of the other guys have fallen by punches to the chest. Again, these guys didn't take me down, but I've been taken down before, I just learned my lesson real quick. One of the four guys was the instructor, who is an awesome guy and has muscles on muscles. The first time I worked with him he was DEFINITELY the most aggressive (with composure) person I had gone against, but I hit him with a straight punch then a hook and he fell. He wanted to go again just a few days ago and I got him in a standing shoulder lock.

And of course, I gor sao without gloves with the wing chun people.

I took a few body shots from the boxers, but that's the extent of it. HOWEVER, I'VE BEEN HIT MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES IN WING CHUN PRACTICE (and continue to get hit quite often), so I am in strong agreement that the experience of getting hit is essential.

"My statements come from experience, not from theories and mystical meaningless words or phrases (something prevalent around here)." KWJ

My statements come from physics. Knowledge of multidimensional vector analysis has aided me greatly in understanding effective fighting methods. It's by no means mystical (as I see it), but it's definitely meaningless to a lot of people! Such are the troubles of a math geek =)


Hi Ernie,

"now be nice we all have our trophy stories about how we pressured people back into a wall or corner , from our first few years in wing chun , i would rather look at the ones that didn't go as planned"

First, I don't tell ANYONE about these experiences, because I consider them pointless in my development, and for anyone who wasn't there to see them, they might as well have never happened! I only included that information to point out that things aren't as black and white as "people who only practice chi sao always do bad". KWJ only included one side of the story, and I wanted to include another side that's equally real (though it MIGHT BE LESS COMMON!!! I honestly don't know!)

Second, I could tell you all about the hurdles I've gone through in wing chun, but mine were particularly boring. I'm one of those people who opted out of sparring, and preferred to practice random single-man hand and footwork drills to promote muscle memory and an understanding of concepts over techniqes. I also practice a lot of chi sao. So my "losses" have been when I stand in place and try to drill in with my techniques instead of pushing across or up or down. Those losses were tedious and frustrating, but they were also private, and far from interesting!

As for the rest of your points, I believe they were discussed in detail in this enormous sleeping pill.


That being said, writing out all those personal experiences makes me feel like I'm just another jerk trying to feed my ego. So instead of taking a lot of heat for it, I'm going to ignore the forum for a while, let people say what they will, and I'll come back later and never write anything so self-absorbed ever again. Have a good night, all.

[Ernie]

marky
honesty is never boring and your sleeping pill gives more information then most do in there discussion of tan sau or what ever that's a sleeping pill
thanks for stepping up and sharing , you are doing what many do not and that is gaining experiences and also passing them on good man be well

[Miles Teg]

WHY DOES SPARRING HAVE TO BE DONE IN CLASS TIME?

WHY CANT IT BE LEFT TO THE INDIVIDUAL TO SPAR OUTSIDE CLASS TIME WITH OTHER SYTLES IF HE/SHE SO DESIRES?
(if they do not desire whats wrong with that?

Ernie you said that sparring is a good medium to adapt to other fighting styles.
Exactly, so what’s the point in sparring other W.C people in your own class? I see it as a way good way to see how the mechanics of other styles plays out against your wing chun – in other words testing.


I see the value in sparring other styles as a means to become familiar with their way of doing things and in what ways you can apply w.c to it. But this is as far as sparring has any value to me. I don’t think it needs to be practiced too regularly, if at all.

By the very design of sparring you learn to not end the fight straight away – a bad practice. When you spar you have to cooperate with the opponent so that they can continue to spar with you over the designated time you are supposed to be sparring that person for. If you are a senior student do you put all the junior students on their backs in the first few seconds you start sparring them – I don’t think so.

I have 10 years Karate experience and a lot of sparring went with it. I personally didn’t find it very beneficial.

One time I explained the idea of simultaneous attack and defense to a long time friend of mine who does TKD. He didn’t really believe what he saw me demonstrate on my own in the air. He is a nice guy but can has a boastful quality that is often annoying and he is quick to criticize. I told him to throw a punch. I think he was expecting the tan da that I had shown him but instead I just did a tan sau with one hand. With me doing absolutely nothing, his punching arm slid down my tan sau and his eye went into the finger of my tan sau. Fortunately I timed it well enough so the contact was very slight but it was enough to make his eyes water like crazy and it took a while for watering to stop. That is an example of a minimal move with maximum effect. In a fight he would have been finished because he couldn’t see. The same thing happens with even a light strike to the nose. It is an instant of shock the eyes water and for a few seconds you are vulnerable.

These attacks can end the fight instantly but cant be used in sparring. Thus you learn to not take the opponent out as fast as you can. You are reinforcing bad habits. The more frequently you practice sparring the stronger these habits are enforced. I see nothing wrong with sparring but I think it is dangerous to do it too often.

[Ernie]

miles
i don't spar in wing chun class , i spar on my own time for my own experience , but what i learn has directly effected and improved my wing chun training , by placing emphisis on what is functional and not in what is fantasy or insignifigant,

as for your experience insparring karate people , to be honest karate people don't have a dlue on what sparring is a side kick and a back fist or reverse punch fired from a rigid horse stance is not conducive to sparring , work off boxers and thai fighters ,

i have the most fun these days with a couple of kenpo black belts and kata champions , it's like disecting a statue they don't understand distance and timing have no latteral footwork or rythem , and these guys are top notch in there field , so yes sparring with karate guys is not the best place , if you really want to test you skills find a good savate guy and see if you can close on him....

[Miles Teg]

Well we didnt spar in rigid stances, like the horse stance etc cause that is a definite way to get swept. We stood in natural fighting stances. They were still clueless in may ways though.

If you are sparring in your own time then thats great. I am currently trying to find sparring partners in Japan. I am just against it in W.C class.

[Ernie]

miles you'll get some good thai style fighter in japan i recently trained with a kid who was competeing in japan he was pretty good but his center was very vulnerable if you like i could look up his email add and see if i can find his school , he was oblivious to wing chun so you might have fun.

[Miles Teg]

That would be cool thanks!

I hope he doesnt live too far away.

[KenWingJitsu]

Ernie, I am playing nice :) see what I brought out. I think Marky just made this thread waaay more interesting.

Marky, like Ernie said, honesty is NEVER boring. I want to thank you for sharing I enjoyed reading your post, and....it gave me food for thought. Which I like very much.

A couple of points......
That being said, the first of these four guys I sparred with (we were wearing very small, very light gloves, but I'm not sure of the weight off-hand) ended up with an elbow to the face.
Do you mean they gave up after being elbowed and the match ended there? .
Two of the other guys have fallen by punches to the chest. these guys didn't take me down, but I've been taken down before, Same question. you ended the fights with punches to the chest or they just gave up?

the instructor, who is an awesome guy and has muscles on muscles. The first time I worked with him he was DEFINITELY the most aggressive (with composure) person I had gone against, but I hit him with a straight punch then a hook and he fell. He wanted to go again just a few days ago and I got him in a standing shoulder lock Same. he fell and didn't want to continue? And about the shoulder lock, which is the hardest to believe, but I'll ask anyway...what kind of shoulder lock? And was he already stunned before you got it? The reason I say that is I cant think of any competent grappler being caught in a standing shoulder lock.

In general, I definitely want to thank you for your post. you're actually on the path that many of us here are advocating. You are testing your abilities against uncooperative opponents, which is where you learn whether or not you are truly able to do what you are training to do. And I believe your account of your experiences.

Finally, althoguh we're talking about sparring and you say you dont spar,.......i think you do.....:Dlol. No I'm not talking crazy. Let me explain. Kathy Jo (hi) has said one of the problems we have had here is a lack of definition or agreement of what sparring is. On another thread I gave examples without going into details of some many different kinds of sparring. Based on what you said, it seems you may have done what I consider my favorite kind of sparring; "Isolated sparring". Definition to come later, but not quite the same as the one step 'drills' people often talk about . When you said
I'm one of those people who opted out of sparring, and preferred to practice random single-man hand and footwork drills to promote muscle memory and an understanding of concepts over techniqes.
Dude...if by 'random' you mean spontaneous, then congratulations!!! You are sparring (in isolation)!! hence "isolated sparring". ;)

Truly, if people understood more of what that term meant, man,.....ANYONE could spar and improve their ability to apply wing chun for real. Like I said, I LOVE isolated sparring. Sparring isnt limited to a slopppy kickboxing type match. So Marky, I hope to hear more from you, and once again, thanks for sharing; and no, it was not boring.:D

[Miles Teg]

Isolated Sparring?
To me it sounds like good old forward pressure chi sau. Thus the understasnding of force vectors. This is how he may have been able to manipulate the grapperlers arm into a shoulder lock. Chi sau should also make you more powerful i.e you should be able to manipulate a persons limbs with ease even if they are resisting.
Do any of you guys practice structural testing?

[KenWingJitsu]

nope, isolated sparring is NOT 'forward presure chi-sao'. The emphasis is on sparring an upredictable attack...not starting from chi-sao.....

[Miles Teg]

I didnt mean that that was what isolated sparring is. From Markys explanation, I thought it sounded more like chi sau. Chi Sau can be practiced so the partners start from a distance before making contact. We practice that way quite often. You end up in a chi sau context because the senior takes control of your attack from the outset managing to make light contact with the areas where you are open.

[ntc]

Look at it this way.... think of learning WC as learning English:
- the forms, drills, exercises are much like grammar.. they are tools that teach you the foundation, framework, principles, mechanics, and other key components of the language (the forms do the same for the style)
- Chi Sao is like experimenting with different writing styles and sentence structures; you learn to express what you wish to communicate in the form of tones, urgency, sarcacism, etc; by experimenting; you learn and you develop your own writing style; Chi Sao allows you to develop and to refine YOUR own Wing Chun but following the principles and guidelines under the watchful eye of your teacher; you develop the skillset to be able to apply WC in all the different scenarios
- Sparring is like actual usage of the English language (but in a more controlled setting), when you put everything you have learned into actual application. The more practice you are able to put into this the better your command of the language becomes; the controlled environment allows you to overcome anxiety of major repercussions and therefore allow for the possibility of confidence building and experimentation;

Does sparring help you to become a good fighter? --> with the proper coaching and training, yes it would; otherwise you could end up looking like a mad raging bull trying to run people over, WC or not.

Is sparring necessary to become a good fighter? Not necessarily, and I have seen quite a few WC fighters with limited sparring practice who kick some serious butts out of fighters from other styles (including boxers and wrestlers). It pretty much depends on the individual themselves and their own training and coaching.

Hence, my take on this is that:
a. the function and purpose of the two are different and needs to be understood and distinguished
b. the two are indispensable for a person to become a good, total Wing Chun practitioner
c. not everyone sets out to learn Wing Chun to become a killer fighter, but sparring does help to hone one's skill in the application of the techniques in real-life fight situations
d. sparring is a supplemental application tool, wheras chi sao is a key part of training in helping one to develop the proper framework, foundation, footwork, timing, and sensitivity.
e. the ideal WC training would incorporate both, and depending on the philosophy of the teacher, emphasis might be on one versus the other

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thank *od we're finally getting to hear more about the benefits of sparring * AND * chi sao...good to read Marky and NTC's recent posts.

Although kickers who don't throw kicks at your legs and BJJ guys who get shoulder-locked in a standing position by a wing chun guy who didn't mention having any grappling training ...

although these are not the ultimate test that one might face against these two types of stylists - nonetheless, hats off to Marky for actually sparring all these guys. It had to be a valuable experience for him.

I can't agree, however, that there is a danger of sparring too much because it will train one NOT to end a fight as soon as possible, since your partner expects to spar x amount of rounds for x amount of time.

Let each DEFINING moment in the exchange with the guy you're fighting be "the end of the round", so to speak. This is the way to avoid the "danger" of too much sparring. Come in and hit someone hard enough so that he's in trouble - and stop. Or put him on the floor with a throw and put your foot on his face - as Marky reported one of his matches ended with. Or perhaps a kick to the solar plexus puts him down - and that is the end. Or perhaps finish him with a submission.

So in the course of five minutes there could be six or seven "different" rounds - if you get my drift. This way the realism is not necessarily lost.