wah lum

[Shaolinlueb]

what are your people's take on this system?

I learned a form tonight from the system called little mantis and i was alright, not that great i thought. and my kwan do form i have is wah lum which i like.

There are a lot of schools around here that teach the wah lum system and my school was one of the first just to do shaolin. maybe its because of the bad rep's of the wah lum schools around here, they taight forms without any power or spirit. eh :(. now they are all going to shaolin. plus there is a big wah lum school in boston.

[Jack Squat]

Here we go again.....

Shaolinlueb-

There has been extensive discussion on this board regarding Wah Lum. I suggest you do a search and read some of the past threads. As someone who has been there and done that, I'll put my two cents in (again) now:

WL has GREAT froms, especially weapon sets. I have the utmost respect for MC and his skill and accomplishments. However, most current WL students (and teachers) would rather do wushu and call it WL.......That's the reason behind the dissatisfaction that you are referring to.


Jack

[Shaolinlueb]

agh i forgot about the almighty search button. my bad. :D

[Ren Blade]

Grandmaster Chan Poi is definitely an electrifying performer.

Does anyone know of any fights Master Chan was in? Was he ever challenged or had to fight for his life? Or you think Master Chan keeps these things to himself and avoids telling anyone?

[SaMantis]

Well, sigung keeps most of those things to himself. From what I understand, traditionally when masters challenged each other to trade hands they did so with little fanfare, in a neutral place, and did not talk about the results afterward. (My source on this is from an article about Jack Man Wong's challenge match with Bruce Lee, it's on the Internet somewhere, if I can find a link I'll post it.)

The only challenge match I can tell you about is a well-known (among WL students) story. In the 1970s a TKD stylist walked into MC's original school (across the street from my office BTW) and challenged him to a match. MC said, "OK, but only if you follow me onto the street." The challenger agreed, only to watch as MC jumped out the open 2nd-story window onto the sidewalk. MC then turned and beckoned the challenger to come down. The TKD stylist immediately withdrew his challenge and left -- by the stairs.

A 2nd-story window isn't much by Oom Yung Doe standards, but MC did have to gauge the outward distance of the jump since the steel support beams of the green line el are less than a sidewalk's width from that window.

[Ren Blade]

Wow. That's amazing.

You train Wah Lum with Bob Rosen in Chinatown? I used to train under him back in 94'-96'.

[SaMantis]

Yep, just finishing my 1st yr. in Boston and about 9 months with Sifu Rosen (couldnt' start right away bc I injured my back moving up here). :(

[Ren Blade]

I'm sorry to hear bout your back.

Bob Rosen's a great teacher.

I bet you know Taras. He's a friend of mine.

[SaMantis]

Cool -- Taras is teaching now (if he wasn't when you were there). Excellent athlete & martial artist. :)

[Ren Blade]

He joined Wah Lum just before I left there. We used to train together at Wah Lum. He came from a wrestling and Long Fist background in Russia. Yeah, Taras is very good. And a real good guy. We still hang out every now and then.

[Yung Apprentice]

It's a small world, after all.;)

[yu shan]

The form "little mantis" is a fun form to practice, packed with explosive energy. You didn`t learn this whole form in one night did you? Anyway, MC must have liked it also. Alot of times when called out, he would do this form. Big Mantis is my favorite WL hand form. Tainan Mantis says this is Wah Lum`s (Bung Bu). Can anyone comment on this? Also I have seen (3) versions of Big Mantis. One was Chan Wan Ching`s version, the other was Lee Kwan Shan`s and I cannot remember the third. With a little research, could answer this.

Have a good weekend!

YS

[NorthernMantis]

Hey that's cool stuff what was the difference?

[Joe Mantis]

I heard MC created forms 1-6 and am pretty sure this is accurate.
Can does anyone know what other forms he created and which ones he was taught by Chan Wan Ching or LKS?

Also, What are Tam tui form sets that are listed in the curriculum?

Thanks,

Yu Shan, good to hear you back on board. HOpe all is well.

[yu shan]

The direction and general movement the same, handwork was the differance. LKS had more knife hand like tech. I`ll get back to you on this, seeing the differant versions was fascinating to me.

Two other WL forms that need notoriety, Fan Cha and 5th Form. WL 5th form is brutal, just my opinion...

[yu shan]

Not to get anyone mad here, but Chan Wan Ching made up 1 thru 6th form. Does anyone else know of this? Not that making up these forms is a bad thing. These forms are fantastic!

Tan Tui sets and the relation with Mantis and the Southern influence... has always made my head spin. Wonder why tan tui exercises were never incorporated into training?

God Bless Celia Cruz...an Angel flying too close to the ground!

ys

[Joe Mantis]

I was told that Masters have the right to create forms.

AND at some point Beng bu, Lan Jie, etc were created by someone.

I'm curious as to which forms MC created and which were passed down.

[racerX]

I've heard people say that Say Lok was created by MC,don't know for sure. since were talking about forms did Lee Kwan Shan teach any pure JutSow forms to anyone?Iam asking because acording to Fernado's mantis cave he had students in Guang Dong & in Vietnam mabey he combined the two systems after this time?does anyone know of these students?

[Shaolin Dude]

what year did boston wah lum move to chinatown? in the 80's?
I heard from a person that goes there he said Bob rarely comes out to teach.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan,
Good to see you back online. I haven't researched it much but I don't believe Big Mantis is Wah Lum's Beng Bu. I just don't see it. Little Mantis is cool, I like it. I developed it into a 2 man set where you switch after the first run. IOW, I would do Little Mantis on the first run and you do it coming back.

Also, 7 Kicks is a Tan Tui exercise. It makes a good line drill. We used to have to do it 5 times back to back. That will get you in shape!

Ren Blade,
Where do you train these days?

[yu shan]

SD

Maybe send SaMantis a pm about Shrfu Rosen, she should have an answer for you.

I had the pleasure of taking refuge in the Chinatown school a few times. Man, does that neighborhood change when the sun goes down.

I agree that WL has great weapons forms. Did anyone do the double-axe seminar in Orlando in early 90`s? Man, that was a grueling day...

ys

[18elders]

big mantis was called bung bu in the early days of wah lum then MC changed the name(don't ask me why, you should ask him about it).


racerx-don't think he made up saylok (4X6 pattern) but was always curious about 4th form and plum flower form. They are exactly the same except the very end.


I also like Chan wan ching's version a little better(big mantis).

Lee Kwan shan in Vietnam- always wondered if there was a branch there were we could contact and get info about LKS or even in hong kong.
Or even info on chan wan ching, although i have hear when he moved to hong kong he learned 3 other styles besides wah lum.

[yu shan]

Hi Hua Lin Laoshi,

Fun to be back, went through a move and think I did something wrong on my computer. I`m ate up with dumb ass when it comes to computers.

As I mentioned, Shrfu Kevin Brazier told me Big Mantis was WL`s Beng Bu. I respect his knowledge immensely. Would be very interesting to here more about this. Speaking of Shrfu Brazier, you really missed a great training session when he was in Tampa. Didn`t 18-Elders tell you about his seminar? Tainan Mantis is a formidable teacher. Joe Mantis and his group was there.

Shr ZhengZhong, (Tainan Mantis & Pong Lai`s) teacher, saw them doing 7-kicks and liked it so much he added the ling side to it. It really is a nice two-person form, think it is considered a kid`s form over their. Maybe sometime I could show you the two man version, and I would like to see your lil mantis two-person.

Adios mi amigo,

ys

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18elders
Kevin has a lot of insight and knowledge but I just don't see Beng Bu in WL Big Mantis. Since you know Big Mantis, have seen different versions of it and (I'm guessing) you know Beng Bu what is your opinion? Guess I'll have another look at them before I say for sure.

yu shan
I knew about the seminar but was unable to attend. And no, I wasn't forbidden. 7 Kicks is a good leg workout. I messed with creating a ling side but lost interest. Xiao Tanglang is much more fun. I keep hearing about Boston Chinatown after dark which has me really wanting to go there to see for myself. Someday I'll get up that way.

[Siuhoimoon]

Big Mantis = WL Beng Bu??

I don't know this form, and never saw it, so I can't say anything about Big Mantis being a WL version of the famous Beng Bu form.

However, in the WL Student's Handbook, there's a list of WL forms written both in English and Chinese. And the Chinese characters used to name Big Mantis are "Beng Bu".

I'd love to hear more about their differences and similarities.

[yu shan]

Siuhoimoon,

Interesting about the Chinese characters comparing Big Manits and Beng Bu. Can you or Tainan Mantis give us more? All in fun...

Hua Lin,

Forbidden never was even thought of...you missed out. Only one part of 7 kicks has some what of a "leg work-out" the rest is basic. Shr ZhengZhong`s two person 7 kicks, is more than you can ever expect. How are things in WL? Pretty close to the end? Let me know about a Grand Opening, I`ll support you!

[Shaolin Dude]

Boston's chinatown is pretty violent after dark. there are a lot of drugdealers and robberies.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by yu shan
The form "little mantis" is a fun form to practice, packed with explosive energy. You didn`t learn this whole form in one night did you?

well pretty much I learned all the movements in one night. It isn't that long. I don't have the closing bow still that he taught. I was only able to practice up until the 2nd pubu and slap though until me knee's gave out from previous stuff. So I watched the rest of the class and video taped it and finished the rest of the form 2 days later. I remembered what I had pretty well and I got it down pretty well now. The kwan do form I learned most of it in 2 classes, I have 3/4 more moves to it.

shaolin dude - yeah i wouldn't want to be in boston's china town after dark. if you aren't used to it, it could be a little scary during the daytime too.

I want to learn more about WL now that I read about it more and more. I am proud to hear its not a junky system like the schools in my area make it out to be. Where is the school located in China Town? My uncle told me to go to it, but he just said china town. I couldn't find it.

[SaMantis]

shaolin dude - yeah i wouldn't want to be in boston's china town after dark. if you aren't used to it, it could be a little scary during the daytime too.

:D Yeah, it can be ... I had family come up for the 4th of July weekend, took 'em to Chinatown for dim sum and shopping. They looked pretty apprehensive at some points, like 'um, should we be walking down this street?' (Beach St., main drag) Definitely weren't in Kansas anymore. :)

Shaolinlueb, the Wah Lum school is on Edinboro St. You're welcome to visit, best way to get there is call & get class times & instructions. Here's 2 links with address, phone numbers & all that good info:

bostonwahlum.com (http://www.bostonwahlum.com/)

or

wahlumpai.us (http://www.wahlumpai.us/)

[isol8d]

Those new websites look nice!

[Ren Blade]

I never had any problems in Boston Chinatown at night. You just have to stay alert and keep your eyes open.

SaMantis, I hung out with Pete, LeeAnn and Taras last night. I mentioned bout you on this kung fu forum to them. Pete was mentioning how he met you on the internet awhile back and then met you when you joined the school. What a small world.

[SaMantis]

Very small world! Cool that you got to hang out. :)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by SaMantis
Shaolinlueb, the Wah Lum school is on Edinboro St. You're welcome to visit, best way to get there is call & get class times & instructions. Here's 2 links with address, phone numbers & all that good info:

bostonwahlum.com (http://www.bostonwahlum.com/)

or

wahlumpai.us (http://www.wahlumpai.us/)

thanks man. i will check it out.

[yu shan]

What other style`s of KF did Chan Wan Ching learn/practice in HK? And... isn`t there any older Wah Lum elders out there, other than Chan Pui?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I don't think there's much WL left anywhere except for MC here in the US. It would seem that the WL elders have left it all to him. Anyone not associated with him will most likely take what they know to the grave. Obviously if there was any type of lineage dispute someone would have come public with it by now.

The area around the Wah Lum Temple in China is considered Wah Lum (stores named Wah Lum Market etc.) and there are local Lion Dance performers using the name but that's it. Not much to the school there anymore. Nothing in HK that I've seen during my 2 visits.

What I'm curious about is whether there is a Jut Sow legacy outside of the Wah Lum system. Did the style die with the demise of the NorthernWah Lum Temple? If so then I wonder how many other offshoots of NPM failed to survive?

[yu shan]

Rumor here, heard there is a older KF brother to MC out on west coast. Wants to be on the DL.

Had the fortune to see forms done back in the 70`s and 80`s. Alot different, seem to have had alot more stuff "tech`s" and plain more difficult! Seems like things are getting watered down. I understand Grand Teachers make changes in forms. Should the evolution of a form be made to make it easier?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

What I saw at the WL school in China was a little different but very recognizable. They don't seem to be keeping up with it and it might get replaced with a more Modern Wushu version.

I guess it depends on what your goals are for the style you teach. Some might feel it's more important to preserve it exactly as it has been while others feel the need to modify to stay current with the times. How often do you hear of someone weeding out the excess and 'unpractical' moves in order to create a fighting style for current times? Too often I think.

The sad fact is in this country very few want to take the time and make the effort to learn the old way. If you're in business you have to sell what the people want. If that means making it easier to appeal to the masses and you don't feel the need to preserve the original then go for it. It's just a variation of teaching individual students differently depending on their size and ability.

I think they should be taught side-by-side. The original, for students who would rather practice a move until they get it right, and a 'light' version for the general public and to pay the bills.

WL from to '70s and '80s more difficult? It's pretty difficult now, no wonder he tones it down.

[SaMantis]

WL from to '70s and '80s more difficult? It's pretty difficult now, no wonder he tones it down.

Yeah, whenever i complain about how difficult this or that move/form is, the boyfriend rolls his eyes and goes, "pfff, you kids today" (or something similar with more profanity added, Boston-style).

The material's difficult -- more for those with no martial/athletic experience. But the student still has to rise to the material. He can't do a 'watered-down' form (or do the moves lazily) and expect it to look good (in forms comp) or be effective (in fighting). I'm sure that's just as true in any martial art.

[yu shan]

During the `99 Sifu test, quite a few of us didn`t seem to be on the same page w/ straight sword (gem). We were sent off with Tu and practiced. Then we were sent off with MiMi, and practiced. When MC called us out to show the form, we didn`t know which version to do, they were both differant. This was a little confusing and embarrising...MC`s was even differant. It always seems like WL forms evolve every few years. Sometimes for the better, most times for the easier. Always wondered why WL forms do this!

[Shaolinlueb]

i know some sifu's (modern ones) modify forms for older people who arent as flexible. at our school with there is a sweep or soemthing and the older (40's) cant get down he has them do an iron broom instead.

[yu shan]

ouch! folks over 40 cannot do sweeps? Guess I need to stop practicing sweeps then. :)

[woliveri]

Rumor here, heard there is a older KF brother to MC out on west coast. Wants to be on the DL.

yu shan, How you doing?

What is the DL in your statement above and where'd this rumor come from?

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by yu shan
ouch! folks over 40 cannot do sweeps? Guess I need to stop practicing sweeps then. :)

these are guys with no kung fu experience at all. we're slowly getting them there. if you keep it upn you'll be able to do sweeps at 40.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Shaolinlueb
Maybe even at 50 or 60, you think?

Hey yu shan, just reset your odometer and start over.

Students, in any style, start out imitating their teacher. After awhile they start to develop their own interpretation (depending on their physical attributes) of the moves. Because of this there will always be differences in each persons version of a particular form. I feel that as long as the essence of the form is there as well as applications for the moves there shouldn't really be a problem. Why nitpick on fine details of hand placemment unless it affects how the move is applied.

When I'm faced with different versions of the same form I go with the application as I know it. Basically I find which version works for me. Since every situation is different you're forced to modify slightly to make it work.

BTW, for some reason WL Gim seems to be played differently more often than the other WL forms. Don't know why that is but physical ability may be a factor. I still have trouble near the end right after the Butterfly Kick. The move looks good if you can do it but I don't think I'll be trying it on anyone.

[BAI HE]

I work right next to Chinatown.
Where else can you get great food at 2am., see crackheads, transexuals and drunks! It's such a crazy melting pot.

Personally i love the way people dress down there, the locals
will be wearing like ruffled tuxedo shirt, foam and mesh hat, track pants and a pair of boots

[yu shan]

went back over a grueling sweep drill with senior students tonight. it is done in a unique way I believe Tainan Mantis came up with. exhausting!

Hi Woliveri,

sorry, going in many directions these days. the DL is inner city slang meaning down low or to be not heard or seen...etc. umm, I`ll pm you on the other. BTW, doing good. trying to keep up with the young bucks! By chance did you get taught Big Mantis? And do you practice your WL material? just curious.

the differant versions of WL gim were all very nice, it is like each Shrfu put his or her body english into. not a bad thing at all, just not at testing! :)

oh yes, Boston china town food is incredible. we went out late (BAI HE) to underground type restaurant`s that seemed for the locals (chinese) watching taped Red Sox games while eating what looked like rat...I stuck to the noodles.

[Tainan Mantis]

YS,
You talking about the sweep drill were evrybody is sweeping everybody?
And when you are not sweeping you are doing jump kicks over the sweeps?

If so, then I can not take credit.
That comes from Master Shr.
But you can apply the method to many techniques.

I believe that this method originates from the most ancient mehtod of battlefield troop alignment.

The group rounds around each other in a complicated pattern.
Everytime they come acroos someone else they do some technique.

This was done with weapons and everyone would have a different weapon so that you practice your weapon against every type of weapon.

In Taiwan this skill or method still exists.

[yu shan]

TM

Yes sir that`s the one. Question on sweeping side, after executing the first two sweeps, the question is where does the leg stop after finishing off the third sweep? Problem is, the side doing the aerial almost lands on sweeping sides leg. Just feels a little odd to me.

Thank you for the historical information on this attacking method. Our group uses this method quite a bit. I like it because, you get an incredible conditioning/aerobic workout, and you get the touch of all those involved. BTW, does this have a Chinese name to it? We just call it the "self eating line" silly I know.

[18elders]

I like to make the last one a 360 degree sweep, you can put your body momentum into it and also avoid the other guys landing.

[Tainan Mantis]

18 Elders answer sounds good.

I learned another sweep drll which is more suited to my body type.
I can show you when I see you.

Sun and Moon is the name.
They revolve thru the sky, sun becomes moon etc for all eternity, just like the way the drill goes.

[yu shan]

we are experimenting with the third sweep, pulling off both 180 & 270 degree. as you can imagine, the 180 is giving me the problem. the extra 90 degree turn (270) seems to get the leg out of the way. and is obtainable for an old man like me. think I will implement the 360 just to be mean! :) I knew practicing WL`s Lok Lo all those years would be a benefit.

Tainan Mantis

apologize for this stupid question sir, but sun and moon describes the sweep drill or the overall continuous attacking drill?

[Tainan Mantis]

YS,
This is a good example of differentiating between a drill and a concept.

The sweeps are the drill. The method of training, in this case, is the concept, which is called Sun and Moon.

[Shaolinlueb]

I saw 2 wah lum schools from ohio perform this sat at a tourny in DC. i wasnt able to catch much. talked to one of the kids about little mantis for a bit. asked him how he liked it and such. I'm happy i asked about it.

around here wah lum doesnt look good from people. the sifu isn't that good and his students have no power. i want to check out the boston school.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Shaolinlueb
How about going to Orlando for your next vacation? You can see Mickey and visit the Temple all in the same day. Of course you won't see Mickey AT the Temple. He only trains when nobody is around. :D

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Shaolinlueb
How about going to Orlando for your next vacation? You can see Mickey and visit the Temple all in the same day. Of course you won't see Mickey AT the Temple. He only trains when nobody is around. :D

man I really want to see mickey in action. my sifu moved down to stuart florida and is opening up a shaolin kung fu school in the area. he said orlando isnt that far away. when i go down to see him, I will check out the wah lum temple.

[yu shan]

Shaolinlueb,

By chance, was one of these school`s from Ohio, Jef Naayers?

No longer with WL, but where is around here? I just know of Shifu Fran Aldrich and Shifu Nelson Chan in your area. Just curious...

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by yu shan
Shaolinlueb,

By chance, was one of these school`s from Ohio, Jef Naayers?

No longer with WL, but where is around here? I just know of Shifu Fran Aldrich and Shifu Nelson Chan in your area. Just curious...

I never heard of thsoe guys man. and the two guys from OHIO had their wah lum school banners and such.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
Sifu Jeff has graduated a few instructors who have their own schools since you left. It could have been them.

Shaolinlueb
Let me know when you're coming down. Stuart looks like a good area. I had a job opportunity near there awhile back and considered moving and opening a school there. It fell through so I opened in Kissimmee instead. Who is your Sifu? If he moved who are you currently training with?

[Shaolinlueb]

im training with his sifu. I trained with him before. tough guy but you learn so much.