Redirection of force/energy

[Jotaro Joestar]

I have recently discussed the redirection of force from a hit (punch/push/kick) with some Tai Chi students and they had very little knowledge of the subject. They knew that it was possible and that that was the "idea" behind some of the moves, but never trained in it in their classes. I was wondering how many people actually train to be able to redirect the force that comes at them down to the ground and how effective that they are at doing it? I do not study Tai Chi, but I have been trying to train myself to do this. I guess it is more of a question of actually applying Tai Chi defensive philosophy. I am not interested in the redirection into a throw or another hit, but just the redirection of force down to the ground.

Thank you in advance.

Jotaro Joestar

[taijiquan_student]

Do you mean rooting? Like if someone pushes on my chest, I stand there and root it (not yielding, just letting the force go into the ground)? That's just having good structure and root, which are related. In the beginning you can only do it if some pushes at your hip or something, but as time goes on if someone pushes higher up on your chest it'll just go right through your structure to the ground. Is this what you mean? If you are using rollback, for example, you're yielding and "leading the opponent into nothingness", but you're not redirecting their strike into the ground.

[Jotaro Joestar]

It sounds like it may be the same. For me, it is like a micro-serpentine motion to redirect the force. I have had no in-class experince with this. It is something that I have been working on my own, so I am not familiar with the terminology in this area.

[Becca]

Sifu comes by and tries to knock us over when in stances. He says that the only way to make sure your stances are sound is to have someone test it in this way. Makes alot of sence when you think about it. A perfect extreme low horse is useless if a strong breaze can knock you over.:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Aside from the supremely important issue of rooting.. posture, sensitivity, adjustments to varying incoming forces, breath.. all are interconnected when redirecting energy.. no rigid posture will survive a competent attack, it is the orchestrated response to such attacks that redirect the energy.. i don't test my student's stances, i listen to their active responses to applied energies.. too often i see people training in magnificent stance work only to find out that physics overides fixed stances.. if you draw a line from heel to heel and apply force perpendicular to that line the only way to redirect that force is to move and adapt (the feet can remain fixed, but the torso must rotate the line of attack off center and away from the perpendicular line)..

Must run for now, but this is a good topic.. will return later.. Be well..

[wiz cool c]

In the Chen style I have been learning in the push hands patterns you redirect the persons energy. Basicaly that is the way you learn this skill I beleave then you test it in freestyle push hands.

[HuangKaiVun]

The way we teach Taijiquan in our school, our students are very hard to hit because they're in constant motion.

They won't necessarily try to intercept your punch with a given technique, but they'll ride your upper arms and try to pin your legs for a takedown or choke. Try to jab them with kicks or punches and they'll dance out of your range, block, or rush you and tie you up.

When you see two or more Taijquan students fighting at a time in our school, you'll see something that looks a lot like Western wrestling. Look closely and you'll see a lot of illegal moves that are deliberately outlawed by standard academic wrestling rules.

Combat taijiquan is all about force redirection - and dirty fighting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...


When you see two or more Taijquan students fighting at a time in our school, you'll see something that looks a lot like Western wrestling. Look closely and you'll see a lot of illegal moves that are deliberately outlawed by standard academic wrestling rules.

Somehow, that sounds like something other than Tai Chi.. The most efficient and well executed applications i have seen were difficult to comprehend.. quick, fluid, almost effortless, and.. little resemblance to "Western wrestling".. It has been my experience that Tai Chi reduced to "western wrestling"is more a combination of different styles (internal/external)..

Just another perspective, Be well..

[Liokault]

TaiChiBOb

If you put 2 guys into a situation where buy they are gojng to wrestal then it will indeed look like weastern werstling.

Your statment leads me to belive that you do not get your students to grapple


The most efficient and well executed applications i have seen were difficult to comprehend.. quick, fluid, almost effortless


HuangKaiVun is not comenting on how his students look whilst talking about a half assed application from a half remembered form, he is comenting on how his students look when they are grappeling with an oponent who is not only resisting but is trying to get his own throw on/blow in.



There are times when applied tai chi can look (to quote) quick, fluid, almost effortless.




1/ During a demonstration

2/ When done during practice with a willing oponent

3/ when done with an oponent way below your skill level.


So to sum up, well done HuangKaiVun......go train harder TaiChiBOb.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

While i agree with the premise of your post, that generally the quality of Tai Chi today will appear to be "Western wrestling".. the assumption that i need to train harder is unfounded..

What is apparent to me is that you haven't seen good Tai Chi application in a full-on setting.. The appearance of "western wrestling" is evidence that the player's training hasn't matured yet.. The school where i teach is both external and internal, my partner is certified as an instructor in JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu, and about half a dozen more arts.. he also won the Gold medal in the All China Kung Fu San Shou event Circa 1996 or 97.. we spar between the internal and external groups and it seldom results in "western wrestling", when it goes to the ground ChinNa usually wins the day.. the most difficult style to deal with is Muay Thai (at 52 my shins and thighs don't like MT brutallity).. MT is effecient and compromises Tai Chi sticking with its own version (with piston-like knees distracting the listening process).. Yet, even with MT if you can stay focused on the "Tai Chi theory of circles" the game is winable..

Aside from that, too often we lose our ability to reach the deeper potential of Tai Chi abilities by yeilding to the ego's desire to "show your stuff" too early.. then the Tai Chi just gets absorbed by general fighting attitudes in the ring or in the streets.. patience and dedication will usually erase the "Western wrestling" image..

Just my own version, be well..

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Liokault

So to sum up, well done HuangKaiVun......go train harder TaiChiBOb.

If I may something, Liokault you were exceptionally rude there without prudent justification.

[HuangKaiVun]

For once, we agree Liokault.

And no, you're not being rude at all. You're just stating what you felt - and the way things really are when confronted by an opponent who isn't going to play dead.

It takes a fighter to know a fighter. Thanks for the support.


REAL traditional kung fu doesn't "look" any specific way, no matter what form specialists claim.

It just HURTS to fight against, that's all.

[StickyHands]

To point out what you just said, a contradictory statement right there, if Kung Fu doesnt look any specific way at all, then how would it look like anything like "western wrestling"? Perhaps your just projecting your perception or of your kwoon, but even then, it has a little logic behind what you said before and what you said now. And with the inclusion of yours and Liokault's pespectives, just because real Taichi, whatever it may be, perhaps"looks" like western wrestling, that arouses Liokault's "freedom of stating what he felt," and hence serves the right to command TaiChiBob to go and train harder with a malicious tone and lack of respect? Does he or do you have any idea how long TaiChiBob has been training? Forget that, did you or him ever followed or read his posts in the past? Just wondering... who practices Tai Chi and who practices Tai Bo with grappling.

[Liokault]

Stickyhands


If you read the posts you will see that it is taichibob who is telling HuangKaiVun that as his style looks (in huangs own words) like weastern wrestling, it is somthing "other than" with the implication of being "less than".

I am very protective of tai chi and feel that taichibobs implication that unless it looks "quick, fluid, almost effortless" its not really tai chi is doing a great dis-service to tai chi and is giving more power to charlitans who promote false demonstrations and talk about chi.

Real tai chi when practiced between two people of similar abilities and physical attributes will indeed look like western wrestling as both guys are equaly adept at stoping the other look "quick, fluid, almost effortless".


Ok im going to be rude again.......

Taichibob says that his PARTNER is qualified to teach JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu and is a san shou champ. but i see nothing to suggest that taichibob himself is doing anything other than tai bo.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


If you read the posts you will see that it is taichibob who is telling HuangKaiVun that as his style looks (in huangs own words) like weastern wrestling, it is somthing "other than" with the implication of being "less than".

If Liokualt interpreted my post as suggesting HuangKaiVun's Art is "less than" Tai Chi, he is mistaken.. i have much respect for many arts, and.. just to be clear, the implication is that at its higher levels Tai Chi handles most styles efficiently, without the appearance of "western wrestling".. if someone has no experience at this level it is only natural that they would contradict that statement.. that's okay, it doesn't diminish my experience at all..


Taichibob says that his PARTNER is qualified to teach JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu and is a san shou champ. but i see nothing to suggest that taichibob himself is doing anything other than tai bo.

Here's an interesting personality observation.. someone choosing to be rude, to what end? why be rude? Let's be clear here, i am not trying to make myself look superior to someone else, i come to this forum to exchange perspectives in hopes of expanding my own experience.. Those that spend so much time telling the rest of us just how "bad" they are and tooting their own horn are generally looking for something they don't have.. Now, Liokault's last sentence in the above quote is partially correct.. "but i see nothing".. the rest of the sentence is conjecture based on absolutely no actual direct knowledge.. it's not rude, it's immature and indicates no desire to exchange ideas/experiences.. he, himself, says it's rude.. designed to provoke rather than communicate.. It becomes apparent why some people's Tai Chi looks like "western wrestling", it's their nature.. unrefined..




I am very protective of tai chi and feel that taichibobs implication that unless it looks "quick, fluid, almost effortless" its not really tai chi is doing a great dis-service to tai chi and is giving more power to charlitans who promote false demonstrations and talk about chi.

Again, Liokault has interpreted incorrectly.. the "implication" is that at Tai Chi's higher levels it does look that way, but the road there is just as much Tai Chi as the goal it aspires to acheive.. NOW, the real dis-service is to compare Tai Chi to "western wrestling".. those WWF spandex morons that do choreographed jumps from the top ring-ropes and throw refs out of the ring while blonde bimbos hold their pink feather boas.. that's the mental image one has of "western wrestling".. and, that, friends, is NOT my Tai Chi.. If someone compares their Tai Chi to that image i am compelled to question its quality..

In closing, i regret the remarks i made regarding HuangKaiVun's post.. not because they were incorrect or without merit.. but, because i should have seen this coming.. I suggest that prior to assaulting someone's character that you make the journey to their place of training and find out the truth, have a face to face experience.. then, if you are still convinced that i or anyone else you choose to slander are inconsistent with the principles of Tai Chi or back their words with deeds, then we can have a dialogue based on experience rather than spiteful conjecture or dark imaginings..

I apologize for the direction this has gone, it was not my original intent.. Be well..

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Liokault
Stickyhands


If you read the posts you will see that it is taichibob who is telling HuangKaiVun that as his style looks (in huangs own words) like weastern wrestling, it is somthing "other than" with the implication of being "less than".

I am very protective of tai chi and feel that taichibobs implication that unless it looks "quick, fluid, almost effortless" its not really tai chi is doing a great dis-service to tai chi and is giving more power to charlitans who promote false demonstrations and talk about chi.

Real tai chi when practiced between two people of similar abilities and physical attributes will indeed look like western wrestling as both guys are equaly adept at stoping the other look "quick, fluid, almost effortless".


First of all, I may be wrong, but as I read TaichiBob's remarks to HuangKaiVun, I sensed no intention nor implication to dictate that his kwoon is inferior than that of TaichiBob's. If you read previous posts of TaichiBob, you'd know as a man of maturity and venerable perception, he always devoided subjects such and refuted that no style is better. There is also still a topic lurking around down below which is titled "Yang Taichi not good enough to be a Martial Art", or something like that, again he went full throttle to clear up the misconception of the old harangue of "my style is better than yours." If you also had asked him, you'd know prior to his 15 years of different styles of Tai Chi, he was into complete external arts, 30 years altogether. So Id think he knows at least something of what he's talking about, and these is substantial substance. In the past, we had different point of perspectives, helk this is what this board is all about. But I didnt make the assumption that he didnt know his sh1t, or "so I think I am right, and go train and correct yourself you senile TaichiBob you, you know JACK!" Ok, no pun intended. lol.

And again, Taichi can be a lot of things, chi, no chi, or even seem like western wrestling to some people, but that serves no purpose to bash someone just because they dont dispose themselves to your kinds of conception. It's nice to see your protective of Tai Chi, but your not doing much a job of promoting or preserving the tradtions. By the way, not just TaiChi, but most MAs at their best are suppose to be "quick, fluid, almost effortless," he was simply restating how delicate and integral it was for Tai Chi in particular.


Originally posted by Liokault

Ok im going to be rude again.......

Taichibob says that his PARTNER is qualified to teach JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu and is a san shou champ. but i see nothing to suggest that taichibob himself is doing anything other than tai bo.

Ok here, another paradox, because I see nothing that demonstrates TaiChiBob's lack of knowledge about MA or Tai Chi for that matter. In fact, I am completely oblvious to what you are trying to say, so do clarify what insightful evidence you have that reveals TaichiBob's fraudulent introspections.

Again this was fun. Thanks. :D

[Liokault]

Ok leaveing all the personal stuff aside, the basic thing that taichibob said (or implied....how ever u want to read it) was that if it looks like western wrestling its not tai chi.

The bottom line is that if its grappeling it going to look more or less like western wrestling.

If it does not look like western wrestling 90 percent of the time then your either not grappeling or your doing a demonstration!!!

hence taichibobs statment leads me to belive hes just not trying.

[StickyHands]

That is understandable, because that's your own personal opinion and perception, and TaiChiBob has his. But one needs to be mindful of it that you cant simply oppress your opinion over someone without any sign of practical demonstration, certainly not to online strangers. However, it is more precise to say that, yes, one perception is perhaps more accurate than the other, hehe, Ill just leave that to you guys to decide. lol. But regardless, we are all here to exchange opinions, give advice, share thoughts, learn from one another, but not verbally bash if it's not to our own reflection.

However, on a closer note, if anyone cared to speculate, instead of scrutinize with blind criticism, you'd see that TaichiBob did agree with your school of thoughts, you guys just didnt notice that, here take a closer look -


Originally posted by TaiChiBob
It has been my experience that Tai Chi reduced to "western wrestling"is more a combination of different styles (internal/external)..

Just another perspective, Be well..

See he did say internal, which mean stuff that you guys do are still Taichi with external influences. But then again, although Taichi leaning toward the internal side, we all know Taichi has external aspects as well, so in the end it doesnt matter. You guys kinda argued for no reason, and no, you're not practicing Tai Bo IM sure. :D

To quote TaichiBob, the star of our show, "Be Well."

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

First, thanks to StickyHands for reminding me of my original intent and keeping a centered perspective here.. StickyHands is correct, my original intent was to imply that, upon closer analysis, Tai Chi that appears to be wrestling is most likely influenced by other styles (internal and external).. And, as HuangKaiVun can attest, he and i have crossed "words" in the past.. and usually resolved the issues with little pain and no animosity.. It is the beauty of dialogue, to differ in perspectives and find common ground through exchange of ideas..

My original post was not at all intended to be mean-spirited, it was intended to spark introspection.. examine the wrestling and see if we can really call that the product of Tai Chi.. in that, i see i failed.. worse yet, i got caught-up defending a belief that needs no defense.. it is what it is, i guess i just feel the same passion we all do about Tai Chi and try to present in the most positive light possible (and that does not include embellishment, my observations are based on my experiences)..

And, so in closing.. i must confess that in a street situation whatever works wins the day.. multiple styles/applications are favored if your preferred style is having trouble managing the situation.. adapt and survive.. That being said, i do always rely on Tai Chi as my first line of defense, and it usually delivers the desired results.. if not, i do have alternative solutions..

I hope we can continue to communicate without feeling compelled to attack or defend "ideas" (that's what wars are made of)..

Be well..

[Liokault]

Taichibob


While I understand what you are trying to say I have 1 question that will end my interest in this thread.

Ok so you running a class, you ask 2 of your students to get on the mat and grapple telling them that this is a win or lose situation and that they need to win.

What does it look like?...or dont u do this?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yes, we do this.. It looks a lot like moving push-hands, each trying to effect a controlling advantage.. a trap and lock or a push-pull uprooting with follow-up leg-hooks for a take-down.. we routinely express ChinNa to the point of demonstrating the potential for end-game moves, but.. we also try to preserve our classes' general health and well-being.. When we go to the striking game, we use grappling style gloves, minimal head-gear and that's when it gets interesting.. the current fighting class is learning about super-short-range power in their punches/shoulder strikes..

We have done much preparatory work to get to the point where we can go full-on and yet maintain enough control to avoid serious injury.. from new student to fighting is about 2 years, although sparring begins sooner than that, it is controlled and designed to get the student used to the breathing requirements, drill techniques and learn how to control adrenaline fatigue.. I am fanatical about using solid Tai Chi principles during the first 2-3 years of a students full-contact experience (build the foundation), then.. if i feel they are ready, its NHB.. so far, i have been pleasantly surprised at the retention of Tai Chi skills in the NHB matches (still, though.. the Muay Thai guys bug me :mad: )..

Many hours of drills are prerequisite for even the first adventure into hard fighting.. the energies and techniques of Tai Chi and ChinNa have considerable potential for effecting long-term disabilities in the untrained environment.. Much time is spent learning how to escape and reverse ChinNa/submission holds (relax and return to center, resistance is what makes ChinNa work).. Patience is important, the opponent will usually offer you a solution, unless your impatience offers him one first.. Much time is spent learning how to slip and reverse attacks, how to move into the on-coming power, deflect it, slip behind it and reverse its direction with a whipping FaJing type of push-pull on the intercepted limb.. (at the end of each arm is a head, follow the arm/find a head).. We also do a lot of pretty high-intensity blind pushing.. blindfolded, we push and use ChinNa while other students stand at the ready to catch a falling player.. (advanced students get to fall fully, it's time to experience the possibility)..

What does it look like?..... it looks like well-trained players enjoying the Art they love.. if it looks like wrestling, i haven't done my job.. When it does look like wrestling i let it go a little longer then we, as a class, analyze why it went wrong.. there's usually a reason..

Oh, and you should see our 2-person sword-play and knife-work.. (staff is on the horizon, too)..

Be well, and please don't lose interest in this thread.. you give me reason to question my own perspectives (that's a good thing)..

[StickyHands]

Any chi work, training, meditation, or chi being used in fighting TaiChiBob? :D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yep.. the description in my last post only covers fighting classes.. we do forms, meditation.. we have instituted the Central Florida Tai Chi Club.. it meets once a month and ALL styles are welcome, we are expanding our learning in many directions.. As i said, i am fanatical about principles.. currently we are working on DanTien rotations and the connection to applications.. we are exploring the compression/expansion of the spiral and incorporating that into our formwork, initially exaggerated and slowly bringing it down to a barely perceptable efficient "wave" of power that rolls up from the ground and explodes at the application.. Chi? that's the stuff that makes all this work.. WuJi, ZhaZhuang, static posture holding for 10-20 minutes, all help cultivate Chi development..

Yes, we analyze each sparring match and look at exactly these qualities, look for ways to improve, look for excess to trim off..

Mostly, though.. we just have a really good time doing what we believe.. it's always just another day in paradise, we try to make the most of it..

Thanks, and Be well..

[StickyHands]

sounds cool.:)

[StickyHands]

TaichiBob, you said it takes at least 2 years for your disciples to initiate full contact fighting? So how long do the muay thai guys take? And after that 2 years, how does your Tai Chi students fair against the Muay Thai fighters? I know that Tai Chi is also the great healing process and ointment after the fight, since I am guessing you have a joint school, how do these muay thai guys heal or relax? Thanks.

[StickyHands]

I have one more question, how does the redirection of the energy to the ground and rooting work? Meaning if someone punches or kicks you hard, how can you simply absorb the force and send it to the earth without moving an inch or taking a damage? How do you develop such amazing power? I mean in that case forget about training how to fight, you can simply just keep taking hits and then when you're bored or the opponent is tired, just knock them out with one or two punches.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The Muay Thai guys begin fighting in about 4-6 months.. they do a lot of pre-conditioning.. In the short term the Tai Chi guys don't do so well unless they have had some prior training (most of my students have).. It seems that for the Tai Chi to begin being effective against other styles it takes about 5 years.. and even then, the difference in conditioning is difficult to overcome.. it's not until the Tai Chi guys discover that softness absorbs the hardness, until they actually learn to relax in the ring that they begin to neutralize attacks.. it just takes experience in the ring to acquire a relaxed but responsive style.. Currently, there is myself and two other students that can stand in the ring with the Muay Thai guys and have some degree of success, but even at +/-30% success i still see much room for improvement for myself and my students..

Both camps, the hard and the soft, use Dit Da Jow, Zheng Gu Shui, Woodlock, etc... we rub out the aches and pains and close with sets of QiGong and silk-reeling exercises to facillitate the herbs.. frequently, after formal class we chat theory and philosophy, grab some dinner or lunch ( or an occasional brew).. we have a very close group, here, everyone works to help each other..

Regarding "redirection", we don't just stand there (Tai Chi is not static).. we assume the dynamics of a spring.. suppose you take a big flexible spring and fix one end of it to the floor.. if you push it, it yields only to "spring" back and pop you.. if you punch it, same thing.. now, we try to be a moving spring that can sink its roots at will, move at will.. The spring will also rotate, compressing as it does.. then, as the rotation deflects the attack outward and away, we release the compression as a counter (grasping sparrow's tail is a good example of this).. Try to push the knee out over the rear foot as you compress the Dantien while pulling (liu), then.. as you press (ji) push with the rear leg and expand the compression with a wavelike motion up the spine, this will snap the palm to palm press into its target with significant results.. All that being said, we do train to receive energy as a direct push and direct it along a line through the frame to the ground, this is to train correct alignment.. if we can direct the fullness of a push into the ground, that same alignment supports our own push/attach with incredible direction and purpose.. that alignment is the "steel" within our "cotton"..

Then (here goes nothing) as we compress the Dantien, we pump Chi downward into the also compressing power leg, bouncing it off the ground we use Yi (intent) to shoot it along the alignment as the alignment snaps into place.. "shoot it along" means to use this Chi to activate the musclature so accurately and so powerfully as to acheive what looks like "magical results" to the untrained eye.. The process of moving energy (Chi) is, at first, a visualization/imagination until you have trained a path that your natural energy can easily find and travel.. the alignment, the musclature, and the energy act in symphony to multiply the desired effect beyond what is normally acheived without all three components.. At the center of all of this is "you", not the physical you, but the mind/spirit that directs the symphony.. like any good musician, if the musician believes the music they play it is apparent in the performance.. so it is with our symphony of Tai Chi, if we believe it it works.. if we move beyond belief into an inherent knowing, a knowing that we are the "marriage of heaven and earth", our Tai Chi will become superior.. (personally, i am still in the courting phase, hoping to pop the question soon, though :D )..

I hope i haven't been too verbose, i am only sharing "my" experiences.. i have no attachment to being "right", i only know what works for me.. if something else works for someone else, who's to say who's "right"..

Be well...

[StickyHands]

I think you should pop the question, I think 15 years of Tai Chi is a big commitment and simply just too long to be dating with the same girl. :p

[HuangKaiVun]

I stand by my original point.

When you really fight somebody - especially when he's not from your own school - it's going to get UGLY.

I've got some real bruisers in my school, male and female. When they practice against each other, they're using every cheap trick to try to mess each other up. Of course this is in a controlled setting, but even then the roughness and speed is there. People get tripped up, thrown down, tied up, pummelled, or pinned.

10 times out of 10, all of that pretty flowery stuff works against people who are cooperating. You fight anybody else who's really resisting, he's going to do stuff to make you look bad. No matter how good you get, you're going to face the reality of function over form. Throw in the reality of multiple opponents and it gets really ugly.

That's why I disagree 100% with TaiChiBob's version of Taijiquan, which goes against everything I and my students have ever learned and experienced in REAL combat as traditional combat martial artists. If real combat could be so flowing and effortless, then why hasn't the US Military adopted such measures in its combat methods?

As a traditional kung fu fighter of an authentic Neijiagong lineage, I'll be the first to attest that this "internal/external" divide is just bunk. Fighting is fighting, and you can't divide the two in a real fight no matter how you try. Hence the true authentic styles don't even bother trying with this meaningless matter because it gets in the way of combat proficiency. Let it be clear that TaiChiBob and I do NOT agree on this matter.

By the way, we eventually will send a student into the cage arena. He'll be doing 100% traditional kung fu, which means that it won't be pretty and flowing and enlightened and stuff. This is real life, not the movies. Liokault (a hardened fighter himself) has already told you how it is in that scenario.

TaiChiBob and I have disagreed about what real kung fu looks like. And the divide will only get bigger, not smaller.


Don't forget, TaiChiBob, that you told me that you could break bricks with a light slap and do a massive amount of damage with a small touch.

I offered to visit your school, sending you a PM. You never wrote back.

So if I sound antagonistic, it's because I AM. Don't even dare try to accuse me of refusing to visit when I asked to see you and your school.

[brassmonkey]

This joker has got to be trolling after reading a bunch of Huang's posts lately. If your not what city do you teach in Huang I'll be really suprised if its listed in the yellow pages.

[brassmonkey]

see your teaching in Phoenix and its called Huangs style, funny I didnt find anything remotely close to this listed:

http://www.switchboard.com/Martial_Arts_&_Self_Defense_Instruction/Phoenix/AZ/242/YellowPagesResults.htm

[brassmonkey]

from information you posted on another thread you gave this as your school address:

"Huang's Kung Fu Academy
2058 W. Warner Road
Chandler AZ 85224"

And using a reverse address directory I came up with:

"Your search returned no results.
Please verify your information was entered correctly."

Pretty funny how you've trolled for so long here and it takes me about 2 minutes to verify your trolling or very delusional/phychotic or probably all of the above.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I am no longer affiliated with the Wah Lum Kung Fu Temple in Orlando, Florida.. (political differences).. This was where i trained whenever the invitation was "cordially" offered.. now you may contact me at:

Extreme Harmony Martial Arts Academy
3206 Scallion Ct.
Orlando, Fl.

I will PM you with a phone number for precise directions to the school.. (currently a private residence until we negotiate terms for our building)..

or, visit our Website, Extremeharmony.com (under construction)..

You are welcome any time, but please confirm someone will be there..

Aside from that.. You are welcome to bring your "ugly" self-inflated "Huang" style to be tested at whatever level you can withstand.. at your convenience.. The disagreement you speak of between you and i is one of experience.. you are at the level of "ugly".. be patient, it gets better.. Please don't embarass yourself further by insinuating that i accused you of refusing to visit my school.. no such comment or implication was ever made.. I didn't write back because you said it would be a year or more before you could make the journey (i can retrieve the PM if necessary).. i am patient and just wait for you to actually state time and date.. I have made no challenge to you, only offered to cross-hands in a friendly learning exchange.. i had thought we were able to communicate like adults, but......

You have routinely antagonized and insulted nearly everyone on these forums.. so, counter to my normal mellow character.. i say to you.. put up, shut up or (hopefully) grow up... Nothing more need be said, you will either show up, shut up, or.. if you are interested in improving yourself, Grow up.. start acting like a responsible Martial Artist rather than some bully braggart kid.. it's your choice..

Be well.. (be wise)..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have tried to PM you with a phone number.. your box is full..

[HuangKaiVun]

You're a total idiot, brassmonkey.

Come to Phoenix. You can FIND this location. Real students, real sifu, real kung fu. No website yet, though.

I can even give you and your buddies exact directions from Sky Harbor International Airport. Bring your sifu.

I'll be in the September edition of the East Valley Yellow Pages, brassmonkey. Then we'll all see how STUPID you are.


The gloves are off, TaiChiBob.

You've been after me for months, and you've been trying to trash my business in public simply because I'm younger (but no less experienced) than you. It's time to put your slander to the test.

Now I have your real contact information, and we'll meet one day. Let's see how big you talk after you touch my hands.

We shall meet at a neutral location of mutual agreement one day. There will be spectators involved, probably videotape as well. It doesn't have to be unfriendly, though I could easily be so if you push me further. Bring your best students.

Thank you for your contact information. I respect your willingness to stand behind your barbs. In due time, we'll make this happen.

[brassmonkey]

"Look at Me, Look at Me

The VTG likes to start things off quickly. He'll introduce himself to a forum by telling everyone things he assumes they must know, since obviously everyone is interested in his personal style and statistics. No one has asked, but the VTG is more than happy to march in and announce his credentials to those assembled.
Unverifiable Style

A known, quantifiable style is the mortal enemy of the VTG. Most self-defense and martial arts enthusiasts are familiar with the specifics of a variety of known styles and techniques. If the VTG were to construct his ficticious background from these, his lack of real knowledge would quickly become obvious, and posters who tried to pin him down would be able to talk him into a corner from which he could not escape.

No, the VTG only rarely admits to a specific style background -- and if he does, the more obscure it is, the better. He may claim to have been taught by a single individual, a Wise Old Asian Master to rival the legendary greats of ancient Japan or China. Most often, though, he'll just tell you that his personal style is an eclectic mix of things he's picked up in his travels. For a lot of genuine martial artists and self-defense enthusiasts, this is true -- but VTGs only very rarely will be able to point to specific component styles. One in a thousand VTGs can try to explain how certain techniques from component styles would work together, but this, too, is rare.

Those Who Can't Do...

In rare cases, VTGs will actually claim to be paid instructors actively teaching self-defense or the martial arts in some physical location. They normally will be very circumspect about this, for obvious reasons.

Its Only a Flesh Wound

Your average VTG has been there and done that, man. He's been shot, he's been stabbed, he's been cut. He's won countless fights and lost a few, too

Questionable Information

The average VTG loves to be the center of attention, and he wants you to believe he's an expert. To that end he's constantly telling you what he thinks he knows. The problem is that he's basically ignorant -- and, as a result, he'll contradict himself. Apart from contradictions, he'll often dispense information that's just plain false or based on misconceptions. When this happens, other forum members are quick to smell blood.


Legends in Their Own Minds

A VTG can't help but create fanciful stories that are increasingly over the top. As a result, he or she will describe behavior so absurd as to border on self-parody. This is easily spotted, and sometimes sounds the beginning of the spiral of self-destruction that is a VTG who has been caught in his or her web of tall tales.

The Deceptive or "Classic" Troll. More sophisticated but often easily identified and exposed, the Classic Troll gratifies his ego by pretending to be someone or something he or she is not. Classics make up elaborate stories about themselves, sometimes weaving some amounts of truth into their lies. As a web of lies is difficult to build with consistency, however, Classics are often "outed" by other forumites."

any of this look familiar Huang?

[brassmonkey]

"You're a total idiot, brassmonkey.

Come to Phoenix. You can FIND this location. Real students, real sifu, real kung fu. No website yet, though.

I can even give you and your buddies exact directions from Sky Harbor International Airport. Bring your sifu.

I'll be in the September edition of the East Valley Yellow Pages, brassmonkey. Then we'll all see how STUPID you are"

Riight. I wouldnt waste my time if I wer ein Phoenix even if you gave me a real address which will never happen. Its not like I would make a name for myself by beating you up nor do I take anything you say seriously to remember when I am good. I might as well challenge the ARizona National Guard verus me as this challenge would be as unreal as all yours you've posted on here. I've seen your posts in the past and thought almost all of it was bs but I keep that to myself in the past, I have to give you credit you've trolled a long while b4 someone called you out on it. Time to change your name and take some lessons from the folks over at fightsport because you are the dregs of the trolling society.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
You're a total idiot, brassmonkey.

Come to Phoenix. You can FIND this location. Real students, real sifu, real kung fu. No website yet, though.

I can even give you and your buddies exact directions from Sky Harbor International Airport. Bring your sifu.

I'll be in the September edition of the East Valley Yellow Pages, brassmonkey. Then we'll all see how STUPID you are.


The gloves are off, TaiChiBob.

You've been after me for months, and you've been trying to trash my business in public simply because I'm younger (but no less experienced) than you. It's time to put your slander to the test.

Now I have your real contact information, and we'll meet one day. Let's see how big you talk after you touch my hands.

We shall meet at a neutral location of mutual agreement one day. There will be spectators involved, probably videotape as well. It doesn't have to be unfriendly, though I could easily be so if you push me further. Bring your best students.

Thank you for your contact information. I respect your willingness to stand behind your barbs. In due time, we'll make this happen.

You had your own opinion and Tai Chi Bob had his, after this one post, you're just another insecured egotistical 7 year old playground chubsy bully.... trying to prove he's a bad ass... embarassing. Man you made a total fool out of yourself, TaichiBob was after you, ruining the reputation of your MA school???? Are you sure you are not paranoid? Wait, you said "business".... ahhh now I know your MA proficiency and why your perception was so askewd and childish.... business.... hmmmm.... can I get some fries with that McDojo, McKwoon?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

To be clear.. i have never "been after" HKV, period.. if his insecurities give him that perception, i can't help it.. in fact, i had assumed i was one of the few people willing to "try" to communicate with him.. i do not know where the animosity originates, i have tried to be respectful.. to have differences of opinion is expected, even appropriate (it would be boring if we all thought alike).. but, to call someone out because they have differing opinions deviates from normal rational behavior and hints of personality disorders..

I have no personal quarrel with HKV, and i apologize for letting him provoke my previous response.. however, the situation remains as it is, an open invitation.. unlike HKV, i do not assume i am superior to anyone, i approach each opportunity to cross-hands with complete respect for the other combatant.. the fact that someone is willing to test their Art is worthy of respect, HKV included.. however, the brash and disrespectful attitude with which HKV approaches these issues is a poor example of a true Martial Artist.. it is not my intention to beat somebody up, it has never been so.. i will look for an honorable way out for BOTH parties rather than engage in actual violence.. that being said, if violence is unavoidable i have trained most of my life to respond decisively and without malice (emotion is a disadvantage when crossing-hands..).

Since my good-intentions have been misinterpreted by HKV, i will no longer respond to remarks by him.. if he is foolish enough to spend the money and risk the embarassment to engage an old coot like me for the purpose of enhancing his own ego, our next conversation will be face to face.. To the rest of you guys, i apologize for my uncharacteristic behavior in this matter.. I am, and always remain, deeply respectful of all those people that make this journey with honor and dignity..

Be well..

[ZIM]

I tried looking up evidence of what TCB is accused of- going waaay back to 2/2002, the closest I can find is a thread entitled "Keyboard Warriors" and in there HKV jumps all over TCB for perceived slights, not anything he actually said. HKV was also given info in a previous thread before, so when he writes "now that I have your real info", that's a crock.

Nowhere has TCB slandered HKV for any reason that I can find, yet HKV has consistently badgered TCB. Sorry, facts speak for themselves.

I believe at least one sifu [yuanfen] has visited HKV, but no discussion came from that. I think he does have a school, brassmonkey.

And no, HKV, I'm not attacking you- I'm trying to understand the history of what's going on here. I'm giving you your due, wherever I can find it. If there's a particular post or thread that sticks out in your mind where TCB has attacked you, I would be willing to read it.

[HuangKaiVun]

Well made points, ZIM.

Usually, TaiChiBob will pick a point like what I made about the REALITY of Tai Chi combat and pontificate about how wrong I am.

That much I accept without rancor. It's this questioning of my character (because I actually FIGHT) that I never took a liking to.

Besides, my challenges to him don't necessarily mean that I want to fight him. It would be nice to meet him, touch hands, and then have a nice time afterwards.

His immature response to this proves his inability to control his feelings of superiority and fear.

The gap widens.

[ZIM]

OK, so it's both a general and specific misunderstanding.

On edit:
HKV- i think at one point you mentioned that you had a relative [brother?] who also taught Kung fu in the upstate NY area, IIRC. Does he teach the same style as you? Would you mind terribly providing an address to his school, if I am remembering this correctly? I'll admit I'm somewhat curious to see what seng men, huang style is. Thanks.

[jon]

Taichibob

There is no shame in standing up for what you believe in.


There is a stupid old phrase im rather fond of.

"stand it till you cant stand it any longer, then when you cant stand it any longer... dont"

In short trust in your own judgement and reason and acknowledge that when you decide that enough is enough you have made the right decision.




I guess all im trying to say is that you shouldnt feel like you have done the wrong thing just becouse you have called a spade a spade.

Anyway be well and happy playing :D

[QuaiJohnCain]

BrassMonkey-


THANK YOU

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)