MA now and than.

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.

Here is a thread that any stylist can participate in.

What differentiates the likes of a BL, YLC and other from the rest?

Why did the become they masters and are still recognised for their achievements today?

Also what do YOU think is different from the Martials Artists of days gone by to the Martial Artists of today.

I want to see a few post before I give my answers to those questions myself.

Cheers.

[Merryprankster]

I think nothing is really that different. The hardcore are hardcore. The hobbyists are hobbyists and people are people.

However, I'm sure you will be told how much better everybody 1000 years ago was.

And also, they could fly. And kill you with one finger. And would kick everybody's ass today.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I think nothing is really that different. The hardcore are hardcore. The hobbyists are hobbyists and people are people.

However, I'm sure you will be told how much better everybody 1000 years ago was.

No disagreement from me.

IMHO, what made a master than is what makes a master now.

Cheers.

[fidon]

Well i think people ages ago had to fight to survive in life, i mean ppl do theat today too, but everything was less strict, so the masters also wouldnt have to worry about anything else in life like getting a job to support the family, or having the commitments and responsibilities of today, i mean the only thing close to just training all day long nowadays is probably the monks in Shaolin.

[Laughing Cow]

Fidon.

Did they train all day long?

Who paid for their rent, food, clothing, taxes and other expenses?

Don't be fooled into thinking that the guys in the old days didn't need to support themselves.

Also I doubt that they were daily attacked or head to fight for their lifes daily.

Cheers.

[Merryprankster]

I think it's quite clear that their students supported them, did their laundry, made their meals and bought all their food, as well as taking care of any debts or travel issues.

After all, that's what the Kung Fu movies today would have us believe. Of course they would also have you believe that Keanu Reeves knows how to fight.

[Suntzu]

LOL@
so the masters also wouldnt have to worry about anything else in life like getting a job to support the family, or having the commitments and responsibilities of today, i mean the only thing close to just training all day long nowadays is probably the monks in Shaolin.

[Brad]

I think it's quite clear that their students supported them, did their laundry, made their meals and bought all their food, as well as taking care of any debts or travel issues.
I'm sure there were more than a few who managed to trick people into being their slaves :cool:

Anyway, I think it's safe to say many kungfu people back then had pretty mundane jobs and went to work like everyone else. Of course, daily life was much harder then, they didn't have computers, cars, or anything like that :p If I were to get rid of my computer, playstation, tv, & comic books I'd probably be training just as hard as anyone of those old masters :D

[red5angel]

I hope that "BL" doesn't stand for Bruce Lee...

[Goldenmane]

I was going to say something insightful, or so I thought... but Brad beat me to it. No computers, cars, Playstations, etc...

... makes for a lot of time to train.

What makes a master hasn't changed, it's just that society has, and the things we do. The most hardcore fighter I have ever personally known spent 6 years living in a 1 bedroom flat with a bed and a tv/video... all he did was train, and wash dishes. The flat was a pit, and he didn't care about his job, which just took 4 hours out of the day and earned him enough to eat and pay rent.

He trained for hours a day, and when he wasn't working or training or sleeping, he watched kungfu movies. He had no family ties to attend to, or anything of that sort.

Don't really know what became of him, but **** that guy was dedicated.

-Geoff

[Oso]

I think a lot of them did have normal jobs...wasn't that SJ/SC master a maker of bean paste?

however, I think the asian culture needs to be taken into account to an extent. the family unit was larger and more supportive of each other. combine that with the general sense of teacher and student taking on father/son roles and I think you do have an argument for students supporting the teacher with houses, food etc. I thinnk it was an article about a mantis sifu from just the early 20th century where his students built him a school and supplied him with the daily necessities. I'm sure this didn't happen as often as commercial media makes it seem.

[red5angel]

Most kungfu masters, contrary to popular belief did have day jobs, and often those jobs might be harder and more demanding, with longer hours then the jobs we hold today.
However they had something most people do not, then or now, the will to make themselves practice several hours a day, before or after work, no matter how tired they were, no matter how many other demands they had in their lives, they always had time to train.
Arnold Schwartzenager used to serve in the military. He drove tanks and he used to carry his weights around on his takn with him no matter where he went. In thefield his crew had to get up at 5 am, Arnold would get up at 4 am to get in an hour of weight training.

That's all it takes to master something, dedication, will and hard work.

[David Jamieson]

I have yet to meet someone who runs a Kwoon who DOESN't have a day job.

seriously, there is no money in running a school unless you are a franchising hypnotizing fillibusterizing bidneth man!

In which case, how much time do you have to do kungfu when you are all that? :D

cheers

[Shaolinlueb]

my sifu and his wife all they do is run the school. he has about 100 active students. and about 6 instructors to help him. if you aren't lucky to have a huge school like that, then yes they probably do have a job.

[Oso]

my sifu sorta inherited the school from his sifu with a decent student body and has built on that. while he doesn't do anything else as a day job he still raises christmas trees.

[Laughing Cow]

One thing I would like to add to the comments already done.

Another difference is that the Masters of old and current didn't bother themselves when the next technique would be taught or similar, they simply trained and did their stuff.

Also I think they never aimed to become a Sifu or be the best in their style.

Might be wrong here, but I kinda doubt it.

[joedoe]

Don't forget a lot of the 'old' masters were also herbalists/bonesetters, or ran bodyguard/security outfits, were soldiers, or were plain merchants. They excelled in their arts because they put in the extra time to train outside of their working time. I remember my Sigung telling us that his routine was to sleep 8 hours, work 8 hours, and train 8 hours.

[Laughing Cow]

Joedoe.

Naturally they put in more effort.

Looking at my own kwoon and comparing the average student (like me) and seeing the champions train there is a huge difference there.

Those guys get more out of doing a form, tui shou, etc once than I could out of doing it 10 times (not an accurate estimate). ;)

Just a different level of commitment, concentration, whatever I guess.

Thus they training an extra 3 hours and me doing the same extra training does not amount to the same results and benefits.

There are peole you simply look at and know they will go far.

Sorry, for the rant.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I think it's quite clear that their students supported them, did their laundry, made their meals and bought all their food, as well as taking care of any debts or travel issues.

After all, that's what the Kung Fu movies today would have us believe. Of course they would also have you believe that Keanu Reeves knows how to fight.

But... Keanu knows kung fu...

[SevenStar]

As was said earlier, what made a master then will make one now. The difference is the number of people who are actually dedicated enough to do what it takes - and actually, when I think about it, that number is probably not too much different either...

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
The difference is the number of people who are actually dedicated enough to do what it takes - and actually, when I think about it, that number is probably not too much different either...

100% in agreement.
:D

[Fred Sanford]

there were less distractions, there was no tv, playstations did not exist. From what I've read the pace of life tended to be slower as well. ya had to do something to keep yourself entertained.

peeps who bodyguard in the present may very well train a lot, but they ain't going to spend 8 hours a day doing it. they may end up working boring 16 hour days.

[rogue]

We have greater and easier access to all sorts of information that wasn't available in the past, not to mention travel allowing us to study with just about anyone we want. If you can't travel or find the right teacher there are videos and books to help with training. We also have better nutrition, better medical care, better testing methods and sports medicine.

I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that we are able to produce mo' mo' better fighters than the best teachers could in the past.

[ZIM]

I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that we are able to produce mo' mo' better fighters than the best teachers could in the past. "Able" and 'doing it' are different. We can produce more walking encyclopedias surely. I think that masters of old went with fewer forms, more thoroughly learned. The whole tradition of wandering taoists was to visit with rarefied masters sometimes great distances away. I don't know if the internet counts for that... But its great having met all of you anyhow! :)

[rogue]

I think the modern world has produced martial artists that at least equal anybody from 70+ years ago.


The whole tradition of wandering taoists was to visit with rarefied masters sometimes great distances away. These days the time to travel has been made shorter and those rarefied masters are made somewhat less rarefied because of it. When I was taking BJJ way back when, my instructor would travel a great distance to study with the rarefied master Pedro Saur(sp?), and make it back to teach us what he learned that very week.

[joedoe]

Here's a thought I just had - the old masters did not have access to the medical facilities that we have now, so they would have had to have learned something of healing to get through all the usual training injuries. That would also give them a pretty good understanding of how the body works. Can we say that most 'masters' of today have that same knowledge?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by joedoe
Here's a thought I just had - the old masters did not have access to the medical facilities that we have now, so they would have had to have learned something of healing to get through all the usual training injuries. That would also give them a pretty good understanding of how the body works. Can we say that most 'masters' of today have that same knowledge?

'masters' probably not, but masters, maybe.

[joedoe]

Good point ;)

[SevenStar]

How do you think the masters of old would view the mma guys of today?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by joedoe
Good point ;)

:D

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
How do you think the masters of old would view the mma guys of today?

Think I they would simply see them as fellow MA and recognise the hard work that they put into their studies.

Most of the "classifications" and "ideas" we got today are VERY new and didn't
exist back than.

Cheers.