Is this southern Shaolin

[45degree fist]

Hi I am currently a Wing Chun guy. there has been alot of debate in the WC community as to the origin of our system. One debate is that WC was developed in the Southern Shaolin temple by warrior monks. The others debate is that a women taught it to a young girl named Named Yim Wing Chun in order to keep from marrying someone she didnt like. I dont know if this discussion has come up before in the southen chinese forum, but it would be interesting to know what your take on it is.

[Sho]

It was a good idea to put this here, because you'd probably get more biased responses on the Wing Chun board. :D

Nah, I guess this would be a great topic to debate about - without all the bashing of course.

[Brad]

What edvidence is there for either argument? Anything online to show what people are basing their conclusions off of?

[45degree fist]

Im glad some of you have taken interest in my thread here is an article found on the Ving Tsun Museum Website. this article explains the debate from the Southern Shaolin Temple side.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/loewenhagen/myths.php


This Link Is taken From The Wing Chun Federations Website and explains the story about the nun teaching a young girl

http://www.wingchun.org.uk/history.htm


I may have been a bit vague on the two story lines in my previous post but this should clear up any confusion.

Thanks again

[David Jamieson]

Truth is, very little is known about the origin of teh Southern Shaolin Temple styles beyond that which is handed down through the master student relationships over time.

some stories are told to hide the reality in regards to the later popular styles.

so much was lost in the time that was the cultural revolution also. Seriously lost, think Fareheit 451 serious loss.

Chinas history, like any countries history is revisionist at times which in turn completely distorts the truth and the reality of the timeline.

It is my understanding that the Wing Chun system is a distillation of Shaolin Kungfu techniques that can be transmitted quickly and ability comes fast through training the styloe. THis was designed in such a way so that someone could be up and fighting quickly.

It is likely a merging of techniques that were all at Shaolin but later were dispersed. Some Hung, Some Choy, some other styles. Packaged and delivered in such a way that you should be able to learn all the sets inside of 18 months and be proficient with a number of the techniques.

The weapons are limited to short range double blade and long range staff. With the 8 cut knives probably being the most complex piece in the system.

It is a neat compact system and if you train right, you can use it to fight pretty quickly as compared to say a more demanding and difficult style like Cha or BSL which take a long time to learn the sets and a long time to gain any proficiency with the techniques because of the length and structure of the curriculum.

In the end, it doesn't matter. What matters is, can YOU do it, Does it work for YOU and can YOU make it work in a variable filled situation :)

cheers

[yuanfen]

Good luck with "objective" wing chun history---
or stories. (VBG).

Each lineage has their own twist to the stories-
again- good luck on chewing on this.

Wing Chun has less old literature than say the taichi classics-
so Kung Lek is correct on the oral tradition.

While some things in the style can be learned fast- the depth of the style is usually undersetimated.... and hence the challenge of learning it well. The popularization of the style and the commercialization actually has worked aginst consistent development and progress of many relative beginners.

China was/is full of many temples... and its very common in
"selling" to whisper "Shaolin" and
"very old"!!!

Have fun.

[PHILBERT]

It could be both, Wing Chun might of been developed in the Southern Temples, and Ng Mui was the only person left alive who knew the art when the Temple was burned (remember 5 were said to survive). She then could have taken the art and further developed it with the girl Wing Chun.

[David Jamieson]

When I think about these stories of heroes and ten tigers and five tigers, I really look at them for what they are: Legends.

Think along the line of Johhny appleseed or Paul Bunyan in american terms.

THese people may not have even existed but were created in the folklore of the populace as a ways and means of transmitting morality tales. Much like the eight immortals.

Not to say there were no knights errant in those days, because there was. But take these stories with a grain of salt. They really aren't that important and the truth is distorted as much as typical history.

IE: Do you think the boston tea party went down the way disney tells it?

The legends of Kungfu Masters and their deeds is the same in most cases as teh telling of a superman story.

Kungfu was built and propogated by many people through the passage of time. No Kungfu now is the same as it was in it's earlier iterations.

With each new carrier of a style, there is a new way of excuting that style and there is a different understanding applied to teh style than what the previous carrier had.

IE you will never think the same as you teacher and your students will never think the same as you, so you best do your best to pay attention to what matters and not teh superfluous.

What matters? The Kungfu itself. What doesn't matter? Fairy tales and lineage tracings.

cheers

[Ben Gash]

All lineages of Wing Chun state Jee Shim as the originator of the style. This would give it the same origin as Hung Gar, so yes, it would have to be considered southern shaolin. Wether or not Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun actually existed (or Jee Shim for that matter, or the southern shaolin temple) is another story.

[yuanfen]

Ben Gash sez:All lineages of Wing Chun state Jee Shim as the originator of the style.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Really? Whatever gave you that idea?

[Ben Gash]

OK, the vast majority of major lineages in evidence today state either Jee Shim or Ng Mui as the founder. The art was then taught to Leung Jan and then passed onto the Red Junk Opera. As Jee Shim was Ng Mui's master........

[rubthebuddha]

i don't think i've ever heard of jee shim as the founder of wing chun, from any lineage (except maybe rene's -- he's makin weird stuff up all the time. ;)). every story i've heard that put a person's name to it was ng mui.

[Ben Gash]

As Jee Shim was Ng Mui's master........

[rubthebuddha]

doesn't mean he's the founder of the style. many legends say that ng mui founded wing chun on her own after fleeing the temple. others say it was a combination of several masters who devised a system as a conglomeration of techniques meant to hasten proficiency, and jee shim may have been one of these. regardless of the stories, i've heard quite a few and haven't heard any of them mention jee shim as the founder.