the third hand

[Phenix]

the third hand,
each hand has 0.5 point more.
thus it is air tight. and thus it is WCK from SLT and only from SLT Training.

The uniqueness of WCK, can't get from other style.

Thus, it is no longer White Crane from Fujian, Thus, it is not 12 Zhuang from Emei. However, without the crane there is no air tight center line sealing and forward potential. Without the 12 zhuang one cannot have a hand hinden within another hand such as the Allien's mouth within mouth....



Thus, it is not from Shao Lin or Wu Dang.....

The "snake" is needed for the 0.5 points of degree of freedom.

" the character of Crane is no fighting,
thus, it has the virtue of a Phoenix.
The spiritual dragon only shows its head,
Its transformation is un predictable ----- the hidden half point.


What do you think?

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

What the point? ... and then half the point?

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrix,

What the point? ... and then half the point?

Regards,

A point is a "diem" in catonise. a diem is a technic, so half diem or boon diem is a diem which is "hidden" in a mother diem,

such as Tan is a diem and the biu (sliding in just after the tan execute) is the boon diem.

whether to excecute this boon diem or not depend on whether how tight is the opponent or if one really wants to get him.

if he/she is air tight and using double hand technics such as White Crane of Fujian, then suprise him/her when he/she thinks the attack is over and he/she can seal off his/her guard, with the boon diem.

or if one wants to truely damaging, meaning after the opponent is colapsing, finish him up with a short penetrating jing.


Thus, it is not only we stick and track.... but the attack can be never ending and always there is a "third" hand. It is not Yat Chiu Yat Sek. or one stroke for one stroke.

IMHO, atleast, the Yik Kam's way is like this. Can't speak for other lineage, but, I find it is the same, be it from LJ, Wong wah poh, ...or Kolau, or YM or YKS.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix

A point is a "diem" in catonise. a diem is a technic, so half diem or boon diem is a diem which is "hidden" in a mother diem,


So how did Yik Kam hide his third hand? Inside his 2 feet wide sleeve (you know the Fa Dan dress)? :D

[yuanfen]

Of course its there in YM WC.<g>

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


So how did Yik Kam hide his third hand? Inside his 2 feet wide sleeve (you know the Fa Dan dress)? :D

you can hide a Bazuka there with those sleeve, and see how far the Bazuka's Jing compare with any other Chinese MA Jing.:D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Of course its there in YM WC.<g>


Yup, and now we all need to write down the uniqueness of WCK.
It is time to do that.....

[MustafaUcozler]

I like your ideas and have heard and studied similr ones before.

For example...the "boon tan-bong" or also called "Kwan Sao" in certain lineages would be either 0.5 dim (boon tan) + 0.5 dim (boon bong) = 1 dim OR if you consider your ELBOW or any point between your elbow and your wrist your "THIRD HAND" which is worth half a "dim", then it would be 3 DIM (1 tan, 1 bong and 0.5 dim for each "third" or even "fourth" hand).

Does this make sense to anyone? :) I think the important point here is that each arm has an "additional hand" in the shape of the elbow to wrist area, which can be used *imultaneaously* with the "real hand".......everyone with me? LOL

Mustafa

[PaulH]

Thanks, Hendrix. What do I think? I think you got the third hand.

"whether to excecute this boon diem or not depend on whether how tight is the opponent or if one really wants to get him.

if he/she is air tight and using double hand technics such as White Crane of Fujian, then suprise him/her when he/she thinks the attack is over and he/she can seal off his/her guard, with the boon diem.

or if one wants to truely damaging, meaning after the opponent is colapsing, finish him up with a short penetrating jing.


Thus, it is not only we stick and track.... but the attack can be never ending and always there is a "third" hand. It is not Yat Chiu Yat Sek. or one stroke for one stroke. "

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
I like your ideas and have heard and studied similr ones before.....

Does this make sense to anyone? :) I think the important point here is that each arm has an "additional hand" in the shape of the elbow to wrist area, which can be used *imultaneaously* with the "real hand".......everyone with me? LOL

Mustafa


It is not my idea, it is the ancestors'. But, just trying to sweap away the mud for being burried in obvious for too long. Not trying to redefine WCK here. But to repeat what is WCK in the old time.

The medirians, The Sun, the 0.5 points,... all will converge and has it's purpose.

And NON is the most original because ALL is original. IMHO, Certainly, these are limited only for the WCK from the ancestors : Ng Mui and Miu Soon. Not the WCK from others.



WCK is WCK, but it is not limited to wrist, elbow,.... or external shape. The external shape might broken but the Yee always can continous on.

Since the analysis is every part of body should be able to Issue or neutralize force. Then, that 0.5 dim is not limited to elbow or wrist..... The whole key is about the 12 medirians... and how to activate them.

the 0.5 is a Ying or Hidden. The 1 full dim is a Yang. thus, the 0.5 points will show only when it was executed and it is too late for the opponents....

As the Kuit said,
"half point shifting stance capture the enermy"

WCK is about that half makes the different.

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

I read the "Book of Five Rings" by Mushashi translated by Thomas Cleary. There is a companion Japanese military book in the same volume written by a Yayue clan high court official. He talked of this similar concept though he called it the hidden/unseen hand in all seen hand.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

There is better translation of Mushasi than Cleary's from a martial standpoint. Iforget the name though I have cited him in my JAMA article. And the logic of Five rings is so un-karate like.

Interestingly Mushashi was fairly square stanced with both hands involved-
he even preferred two swords.

[PaulH]

Mushashi reminds me of the deadly killing mindset of the Baat Cham Do. He preferred simplicity, directness, and efficiency in his actions and hence his actions mirror very similar to WC concepts and principles. Somethings are just universal and transcend all space and time.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Hi Pual,


Sure, all great people has this type of phylosohy or concept.
and WCK has the implementation of it, not jus phylosophy.

thus, what can be seen is easy to learn. what cannot be seen has to base on experience to "see" it even was shown.... certainly not just the sifu transmit to the student directly face to face. How many has face to face with the 5th patriach of Chan? why is only Hui Neng got it? IMHO

If you watch Mushashi closely, it is not about killing....

Joy,

Certainly not Karate like logic. thus it is not that white crane or shau lin reber monks.... but real zen as musashi is. IMHO
that is the true color of the at.

Paradigm shift? this is the first step. .. not those " oh, i am from the ming military, the decendent of shao lin, wudan.. emei..... those are great.. but can it sustain Musashi with words? " certainly. dreaming.

So, there are "body" paradigmshift and "application" paradigm shift. and each of them are well define.

[TenTigers]

the concept is great, but WCK is not the only system to have this. Most Fukien Siu-Lum interpet faht/Ying this way. It allows people to think outside the box, and opens up doors to a myriad of interpetations. I think that perhaps the term, third hand might be peculiar to you style, but certainly not the concept.

[yuanfen]

Ten Tigers-
other systems having it/ Maybe...maybe not... Good arts by osmosis develop some similar natural things.

But with the structure of wing chun- the third hand is ever present.
Esoteric language and expression - but true.
The flow of the Yee and the changes in timing are IMO implicit in what Hendrik is talking about.

he is not from the Ip Man heritage- I am but I clearly relate to what he is saying in this particular aspect fothe thread.
We may be far off- but I really dont think so.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
the concept is great, but WCK is not the only system to have this. Most Fukien Siu-Lum interpet faht/Ying this way. It allows people to think outside the box, and opens up doors to a myriad of interpetations. I think that perhaps the term, third hand might be peculiar to you style, but certainly not the concept.

Sure, WCK cannot be the only system has the concept.

As we know even the Japanese has the concept, but we need the topology and implementation to show something tangible. Otherwise, it is too general.

if I qoute TaiJi's " the physical is broken but the Yee still connected...." there the concept again.



However, the implementation of WCK to the concept is unique that's why it is WCK.

Since you think Most Fuken Siu-lum interpet this way, why don't you show the topology with the implementation in specific. It will be interesting to compare interm of structure, Medirian, Jing, and Yee. Otherwise, we are generalize about things and falling into a myriad of interpetations.

by the way what is " faht/Ying"?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen


he is not from the Ip Man heritage- I am but I clearly relate to what he is saying in this particular aspect fothe thread.
We may be far off- but I really dont think so.


Joy,

As I said, ALL is original, it is just obvious we don't look at.
EVeryone has it.

As Rene said, after 150 years of departure from Red boat and when the practitioners come around the world and can relate to the samething. doesn't it shows something?


There is a story when I was in Taiwan visiting some professors.
The prof told me, one day, one of his student told him that the westerner knowing more about Chinese Culture, since his western friend knows when Chop Stix were invented .....ect.

Then, the prof told him--- your friend read about it in the book. but you use Chop stix everyday. So one read about it and one lives in it. how many way one can use chop stix? That cannot be read from book right?

[TenTigers]

ying=shape,form, or structure, faht=technique, or how the shape is used. Tan-sao is formed by bringing the hand foward with the palm up, (or spiraling, or outward, etc) but the end shape-hand extended, palm up is tan-sao. How it is used, where you faht ging(express energy) whether or not you utilize the foward movement of the shoulder at the end of the technique, or whip it, or sink it, or thrust it foward-etc where the shifting of the horse comes into play, whether it is inside, outside, guiding, yeilding, crashing, raising, pressing, etc,etc this is what I was referring to. Of course this is something we all share. Unfortunately, this is also something that causes some to say, "we're better", or "you're doing it wrong". just my .02

[Phenix]

just for discussion, IMHO!



ying=shape,form, or structure, faht=technique, or how the shape is used. ---TT

Thanks for your clearlify about your translation.

If you notice, what I brought up is beyond Ying and Faat.

And a few post ago, I comment, it is not about Yat Chiu Yat sik. or not about one shape or one technics. It is about Change within Change As Joy point it out. And the Change within Change is not predetermine but execute based on situation. -HS





Tan-sao is formed by bringing the hand foward with the palm up, (or spiraling, or outward, etc) but the end shape-hand extended, palm up is tan-sao. -TT


If that is the way how it was define, then Karate's side outward block is Tan. But, it that true? Is "Lady looks at mirror" of southern Shao Lin a Tan? ---HS



How it is used, where you faht ging(express energy) whether or not you utilize the foward movement of the shoulder at the end of the technique, or whip it, or sink it, or thrust it foward-etc where the shifting of the horse comes into play, whether it is inside, outside, guiding, yeilding, crashing, raising, pressing, etc,etc this is what I was referring to. --TT


IMHO,
There are a few issues here:

1, Is a Tan a Tan?

a,
Let's clarify the two faht so we are clear with which faht.
as you define Faht as technics on above.
That Technics Faht is different to the **** (issuing) here.

So, there are two different mechanics here, --- The method/ technics and the issuing.


b,
One can Fa Jing differently, thrus forward, whip.... with a Palm up shape. But is that a Tan Sau, still a Tan Sau, or Is that the third hand or 0.5 point?



2, as for the third hand or the 0.5 point, does the training of the particular style has the training of the "adaptive, secondary and tripple power issuing cultivation"? one can claim that it is up to one to sink it or thrust forward, but if the set one practice goes all the way such as a Karate punch that shows the DNA of the system is different with the one which generating power similar to a always spining Gyros(spelling). certainly, one can uses a short fast move after the main move. But is that the same implementation with the spining cyros type which continous to sense and spin?

3, what justified execution is this way or the other? In WCK, there is Chi Sau and listerning training, and this is very different with bouncing Kiu Sau training. WCK uses Sensing Data as a part to justified execution while other system might not use the Sensing Data but a planing set up.

so, the 0.5 points can look similar explicitly but it is different. IMHO. -HS



Of course this is something we all share. Unfortunately, this is also something that causes some to say, "we're better", or "you're doing it wrong". just my .02 ---TT


IMHO,

No, it is not about "we are better" or who is superior.
It is about Uniqueness of a style.
WCK is not TaiJi and TaiJi is not WCK. Eventhough there are lots of excelent things in Taiji which all WCK people has to admit because it is a fact.

it is about to clearly identify what is what.
Can't just take every thing and say "oh, we have it too. "
No one is perfect. but Bugger King is not Mc Donard. IMHO.



Again, in my curiosity, Since you think Most Fukien Siu-lum interpet this way, if you show the topology with the implementation in specific from different Fukien Siu Lum, It will be interesting to compare interm of structure, Medirian, Jing, and Yee.
Otherwise, we are generalize about things and falling into a myriad of interpetations.

Actually, I would love to hear your view on the Jing of Iron wire set, the YJKYM of iron wire set, how/ what was tense when using sound to generate strength, and the stratgy of the iron wire's application. Does the executing Faht or technic taking consideration on "sensing" data? similar to WCK? -

Just some fun discussion. IMHO. --HS

[TenTigers]

Frankly, I don't see a difference. I think it's simply a matter of being able to think outside the box, and not simply taking everything at face value.
As far as kiu-sao being bouncing? I'm not sure what you mean. I am referring to kiu-sao sensitivity exercises, not sam sing dar. There are many sensitivity drills similar to chi-sao that develop listening, yeilding, sticking energy, and the ability to change in correspondance with the enregy that is felt. I have also seen similar drills in Bak Mei P'ai, Southern Mantis, and Tai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing-Yi, and Bot Gua. Perhaps I simply had open minded teachers?LOL
In Tiet Sien Kuen, we utilize the sounds more for release of tension, which in turn enables fat-ging (express/release power), but the sounds are not what causes it. Eventually, the sounds can be omitted, once the breath and release is understood. My TSK might be different than yours, as I have had different teachers than you, each Sifu emphasizes different things, so my Gung-Fu, although still Hung Kuen, might be different than yours.
Our yjkym is used for rooting AND mobility-sounds like a contradiction, but not if you've ever played tennis or handball.
My cantonese is not that good (I can probably speak on a toddler's level) so could you please also define each term as you use it as well? Thanx!
I'm not sure whether I've answered your questions-heck, I'm not sure I even understood'em! But I gave it a shot! (has daifong risen from the ashes?)

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
just for discussion, IMHO!
...... but if the set one practice goes all the way such as a Karate punch that shows the DNA of the system is different with the one which generating power similar to a always spining ***Gyros***(spelling). certainly, one can uses a short fast move after the main move. But is that the same implementation with the spining cyros type which continous to sense and spin?....

here is a good web site on gyroscope, centrifugal and coriolis forces......

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/gyr.html

[anerlich]

In my last grading, my instructor hit me with a beautiful palm strike to the lower ribs. He, or one of my fellow students, also gave me two balck eyes.

After the grading in the change room, I marvelled at the perfectly shaped bruise hich had resulted. The palm, index, middle and ring fingers were visible in their entirety, and about half of the pinkie.

Got a photo of it and all.

So, I got the third hand! And I didn't even have to learn, sorry experience directly, all that stuff about chopsticks.

[Phenix]

Frankly, I don't see a difference.---TT


That certainly is acceptable. Since no one knows all style. --HS

" I think it's simply a matter of being able to think outside the box, and not simply taking everything at face value." --TT


It is great that you think it is a matter of being able to think outside the box.
However, since I can be a conservative guy. I would like to refer to the system's classical writing as evident. I don't belive in "we have that too" way of thinking. --HS

" As far as kiu-sao being bouncing? I'm not sure what you mean. I am referring to kiu-sao sensitivity exercises, not sam sing dar. "---TT

There is a different in doing Chi Sau similar to Wingchun from YM, YKS, KL, and Cho family.

Sam Sing Dar or Chak Kuen (a technic to against other technics) is not a chi sau. --HS


There are many sensitivity drills similar to chi-sao that develop listening, yeilding, sticking energy, and the ability to change in correspondance with the enregy that is felt.

I have also seen similar drills in Bak Mei P'ai, Southern Mantis, and Tai Chi Ch'uan, Hsing-Yi, and Bot Gua. Perhaps I simply had open minded teachers?LOL ----TT


Sure, But Chi Sau in WCK comes with SLT and its concept as a Pair, body and application.

Hung GAr doesn't have this type of system right?

And TaiJI doing push hand different to WingChun.


As I said, it is about uniqueness. one cannot lump everything and said " oh I have that too." HS






" In Tiet Sien Kuen, we utilize the sounds more for release of tension, which in turn enables fat-ging (express/release power), but the sounds are not what causes it. Eventually, the sounds can be omitted, once the breath and release is understood."


How is the sound related to fat ging? in Hung gar what kind of Ging do you develop? HS



"Our yjkym is used for rooting AND mobility-sounds like a contradiction, but not if you've ever played tennis or handball." --TT


Can you please elaborate? what is the purpose and how does it work for YJKYM in your style? HS

[TenTigers]

Hi Phenix,
I'll attempt to answer your questions as best I can, but in some cases, I'm not sure I even understand the question!-but I'll give it a whack...

"It is great that you think it is a matter of being able to think outside the box.
However, since I can be a conservative guy. I would like to refer to the system's classical writing as evident. I don't belive in "we have that too" way of thinking. --HS"-um, yeah fine. You don't believe in it. I do. WCK is a system that was developed from Siu Lum Kuen,( or Nam Kuen if you don't buy into the whole Siu Lum story-then again, you seem to be pretty firm in your beliefs of a system's classical writings, so who knows?), it was not born out of a mountain. It is a specialization developed from masters who preferred specific techniques over others, hence a new system, but there will always be commonalities. Nobody owns a technique.
I never said sam sing dar was chi-sau or even similar, I was just wondering what you were referring to as bouncing? I also said some of the other systems had similar exercises,as in push hands-similar-not the same. There are many roads to the top of the mountain, yes?
As far as your comment on slt and chi-sau being a concept as a pair, body and application, could you please elaborate? I can better answer your question as to whether Hung Kuen has this or not. Our Hung-Ga has many sensitivity drills, all lumped under the name kiu-sao faht. Some refer to it as sup-yee kiu-sao. For each of the twelve bridges, there is a quality of energy, and a sensitivity drill that goes along with it to enhance said quality. For example-for gong, the drills are 'blocking' which attack the attack. Yau, there are sticking, and yielding, listening drills similar to chi-sau. For wun-there is a jow-sau drill which teaches the fluidity to run, as water flows around a rock , etc, etc just a few examples. Each drill is introduced during different levels of training, and are linked to different movements in the forms.(I hope I'm close to answering that one, otherwise I probably opened up a whole can of worms!LOL)
"How is the sound related to fat ging? in Hung gar what kind of Ging do you develop? HS" (sigh..ok, here goes.....) each sound resonates in a different part of the body-briefly if you place your hands on the center of your your chest and the other one on the solar plexus, then hum a long note going from high to low, you will feel the vibration travel downwards. Different strikes require different types of breathing. Short, quick strikes will utilize short, higher sounds, large thrusts will require deeper, lower sounds. Each sound, each strike is felt in a different part of the body. As far as what type of ging do we develop? Again, for each of the twelve bridges,five animals, there is different ging, and/or combinations of ging associated. Pressing,crowding requires rooting,sticking, and listening, and can be slow, or quick,depending on the situation. Inch power, long force, whipping energy, coiling,scared power, etc, are all developed in Hung Kuen.
YJKYM is used to develop rooting, and structure for short hand techniques. The handball analogy is that of awaiting a serve. You are able to go in one or the other direction. You are able to respond to the direction of your opponent's attack, and immediately intercept with the proper angle. The body is able to shift horse in response to situations as they occur. This might or might not be the same as you were taught. I don't know. I don't know you or your teachers, or your particular style. This is just how we do it.
Hey, how'd I do? purty good, huh? (oh, dang, I bet you wuz bein all serious 'an stuff) Hey, Phenix, if you wanna believe you are the only ones who have the secret voodoo, well go on. Knock yerself out, man. But the more people you meet, the more people you exchange ideas with, the more you will be hearin folks like me sayin, "Hey, we do that too!" Funny thing, there are an awful lot of guys sayin that they are the only ones. Now how do you suppose THAT happens? hmmmmm. See ya on the flip-flop, and I look foward to more free exchanges of ideas and concepts. This is fun. -hugs'n kisses, TT

[fa_jing]

hey, running hand drill. we do that too!!

;)

[Phenix]

um, yeah fine. You don't believe in it. I do. WCK is a system that was developed from Siu Lum Kuen,( or Nam Kuen if you don't buy into the whole Siu Lum story-then again, you seem to be pretty firm in your beliefs of a system's classical writings, so who knows?), --TT


There are believe and there are factual evidents. There are comments based on personal view and there are comments based on reality. So, it is up for one to decide what one likes to believe. HS



it was not born out of a mountain. It is a specialization developed from masters who preferred specific techniques over others, hence a new system, but there will always be commonalities. Nobody owns a technique. ---TT

Sure.Hung Gar is the core of White Crane WCK from Fujien Right? :D --HS


I never said sam sing dar was chi-sau or even similar, I was just wondering what you were referring to as bouncing? I also said some of the other systems had similar exercises,as in push hands-similar-not the same. There are many roads to the top of the mountain, yes? I can better answer your question as to whether Hung Kuen has this or not. Our Hung-Ga has many sensitivity drills, all lumped under the name kiu-sao faht. Some refer to it as sup-yee kiu-sao. For each of the twelve bridges, there is a quality of energy, and a sensitivity drill that goes along with it to enhance said quality. For example-for gong, the drills are 'blocking' which attack the attack. Yau, there are sticking, and yielding, listening drills similar to chi-sau. For wun-there is a jow-sau drill which teaches the fluidity to run, as water flows around a rock , etc, etc just a few examples. Each drill is introduced during different levels of training, and are linked to different movements in the forms.(I hope I'm close to answering that one, otherwise I probably opened up a whole can of worms!LOL) -TT


Does Hung Gar did Chi Sau also? I can't find a term Chi Sau in Hung Gar. May be you can enlighten us.


To be just very general and not getting into Yin Yang details, jing path.... WCK is more close to White Crane's five elements hands potential concept then Hung Gar.

It will be interesting for you to open the can or cans of worms to prove it is not close to White CRane from Fujian but Hung Gar.
Certainly, I will love to learn if that is the case.

As for listerning and issueing power, IMHO, In my understanding, when one's practice based on localized tensing system. That is a different type of sensing and power issue to non-localized tensing system. -HS









"How is the sound related to fat ging? in Hung gar what kind of Ging do you develop? HS" (sigh..ok, here goes.....) each sound resonates in a different part of the body-briefly if you place your hands on the center of your your chest and the other one on the solar plexus, then hum a long note going from high to low, you will feel the vibration travel downwards. Different strikes require different types of breathing. Short, quick strikes will utilize short, higher sounds, large thrusts will require deeper, lower sounds. Each sound, each strike is felt in a different part of the body. As far as what type of ging do we develop? Again, for each of the twelve bridges,five animals, there is different ging, and/or combinations of ging associated. Pressing,crowding requires rooting,sticking, and listening, and can be slow, or quick,depending on the situation. Inch power, long force, whipping energy, coiling,scared power, etc, are all developed in Hung Kuen.





YJKYM is used to develop rooting, and structure for short hand techniques. The handball analogy is that of awaiting a serve. You are able to go in one or the other direction. You are able to respond to the direction of your opponent's attack, and immediately intercept with the proper angle. The body is able to shift horse in response to situations as they occur. This might or might not be the same as you were taught. I don't know. I don't know you or your teachers, or your particular style. This is just how we do it. --TT



Thanks and appreciate for educated us about Hung Gar's way.

IMHO, localized training is a no no for WCK. and in addition, shifting horse is too late, even shifting shoulder is too late for lots of WCK masters who I have touched hand with. HS






Hey, how'd I do? purty good, huh? (oh, dang, I bet you wuz bein all serious 'an stuff) Hey, Phenix, if you wanna believe you are the only ones who have the secret voodoo, well go on. Knock yerself out, man.

But the more people you meet, the more people you exchange ideas with, the more you will be hearin folks like me sayin, "Hey, we do that too!" Funny thing, there are an awful lot of guys sayin that they are the only ones. Now how do you suppose THAT happens? hmmmmm. See ya on the flip-flop, and I look foward to more free exchanges of ideas and concepts. This is fun. -hugs'n kisses, --TT


Before I rather be right then happy. But,
Those days are gone.
Here I rather to be happy then right. :D

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

"Before I rather be right then happy. But,
Those days are gone.
Here I rather to be happy then right. "


Interesting that you said that, yesterday I was playing Chinese Tangoes Puzzle game with a little child. I found that I was more happier to see her win even though I cheated myself just a little bit. The joy of playing is more rewarding.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Hi Paul,


Just some thought,

You see, as in the teaching of all spiritual masters and Buddhism,

Self -esteem and identity is based on innerly one is comfortable with oneself , and acceptance of who one is.

certainly Not about becoming a memeber of a famous coorporation, driving a coltbolt blue boxter, or a member of exclusive club, or a student of a great master..... list continous.

As in the Surangama Sutra, the student of Buddha, Ananda vows, even if the Sunyatta (emptiness) vanished, the Varja heart will not move a slightly. When it said, not move a slightly, it is not about hard and invincible like Varja (diamond). It is about peace and tranquily position which is not responding to intimidation.

it is about become "invisible". only when one is comfortable with oneself and totally accept ones' strenght and weakness one can be invisible and not intimidate. the key for chi sau, the third varja hand right? :D

It is not about right. It is about peace, clearly knows what is what, be able to accept them, and happy. IMHO. Right or wrong get one into the trap of ego.


There is a great CD by CAROLINE MYSS title: self esteem. Try it.

http://www.store.yahoo.com/onlinesuccessbroker/selesyourfun.html?&tf=pt

[PaulH]

"it is not about hard and invincible like Varja (diamond). It is about peace and tranquily position which is not responding to intimidation.

it is about become "invisible". only when one is comfortable with oneself and totally accept ones' strenght and weakness one can be invisible and not intimidate. the key for chi sau, the third varja hand right?"

I appreciate your great insight! I'm still a stubborn fool who believes more in fighting and struggling to overcome your adversities and intimidations - something like peace and tranquility forged from the anvil of war. Winston Churchill as a child for instance had a terrible speech impediment problem. He struggled with all his might to overcome it and today we can still hear thundering speech:

"We shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and the oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. . . . And if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our empires beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, will carry on the fight, until in God's own time the new world in its power and might steps forth to the rescue and liberation of the old. - Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (1874-1965) British prime minister, WW2, orator, writer, Nobel Prize, literature 1953 Speech, House of Commons, 4 June 1940"

[TenTigers]

Phenix,
ok, one at a time....I don't know about you, but I am having fun-learning is always fun.


"WCK is more close to White Crane's five elements hands potential concept then Hung Gar."

could you elaborate? you seem to know what you are talking about, so let's get some detail, instead of simply posing questions. Not that I'm against the Socratic method, I would just like to learn more from your end, as well.-'you SURE you don't know Daifong?

"Sure.Hung Gar is the core of White Crane WCK from Fujien Right? --HS"

Ok, don't ya be gettin all pompous here. I didn't say Hung Ga is the core of Fukien White Crane,I was stating that they have similar roots, however, correct me if I'm wrong-Fong Qianyang who developed a branch of fukien White Crane from Youngchun county(WingChun in Cantonese) did in fact study Siu-Lum and the art is still referred to as Youngchun White Crane.

"To be just very general and not getting into Yin Yang details, jing path.... WCK is more close to White Crane's five elements hands potential concept then Hung Gar."
This sounds facinating-please do go into details-explain White Crane's five element hands. And yes, Hung-Ga's elements are different-they were added to the system by Lama P'ai's Wong Yun Lam's association with Wong Fei-Hung. Lama P'ai and Fukien White Crane are not the same-but again, there are some startling similarities on the short=hand techniques, so who knows? There might have been alot more sharing and exchange of knowledge between the Ten Tigers than we realize.

"It will be interesting for you to open the can or cans of worms to prove it is not close to White CRane from Fujian but Hung Gar.
Certainly, I will love to learn if that is the case. "

see above -I still can't get the hang of this copy/paste thingy

"As for listerning and issueing power, IMHO, In my understanding, when one's practice based on localized tensing system. That is a different type of sensing and power issue to non-localized tensing system. -HS"

What do you mean by localized tensing? And what is a localized tensing system as opposed to a non-localized tensing system? I am not following you.details, puh-leez

"IMHO, localized training is a no no for WCK. and in addition, shifting horse is too late, even shifting shoulder is too late"

ok, what is localized training?
and...I said shifting horse in response to situations AS they occur, not after. Again, bridge sensitivity is key-you push, I yield, and shift, allowing your energy to extend.
also, I said, most Hung-Ga schools use the term kiu-sao faht, and not chi-sao-but what's in a name? In France a Big Mac is a Royale with Cheese. (I suppose avec fromage would be correct?) If you're simply going to state that we don't have the same techniques and theories simply because the nomenclature is different, that's like saying biu-jee and sare tao choy are different strikes because they have different names. Silly, huh?
I await your reply with baited breath-(I had sashimi for lunch)
-Rik

[Phenix]

Paul,

Wiston and Gandhi who is right who is wrong?

British's strenght fade away with time.
And everyone can have neuclear bomb now.

But Gandhi's non violant inspration just begin... and not too many in the world dare to follow him.


it is already 2000, the era of matrix....

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

What do you think if England had Ghandi as the Prime Minister confronting the German war machine under Hitler during WWII? I rest my case. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrix,

What do you think if England had Ghandi as the Prime Minister confronting the German war machine under Hitler during WWII? I rest my case. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

First, the british lost to Ghandi and second
What do you think if Hitler's teacher is Ghandi? LOL

:D

[PaulH]

Ghandi may become another Khmer Rouge- like leader and start an pure caste only ethnic cleansing movement in India? Hitler was a very persuasive man, you know! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H-

You underestimate Gandhi's (not Ghandi) ability to organize
non violent resistance and adapt to the challenge at hand.

The British were not exactly kind and benign in Jalianwalabagh
and other places. An important part of my boyhood was seeing
British smashing heads and firing(live bullets) into unarmed protestors.

Gandhi's approach was non violent but very comprehensive
in developing countervailing strength, leadership development,
jamming the performance of government functions, economic boycotts, strikes...
Innovation and creative thinking is not limted to the blitzkrieg or to methods of shock and awe.
Organizing the freedom movement in India was no easy task---
2nd largest population in the world, the sheer diversity of languages and religions and habits of parochialism- without modern communications.
Gandhian principles via MLK ennabled folks to deal with attack dogs, shootings and bombings in the civil rights movement in the
racism of the Old South in the US and via Cesar Chavez to organize migrant workers in the hot
tyrranical fields of cheap labor in parts of the southwest..

Consider the alternatives---dependence on firepower...we are headed for considerable spreading of nuclear weapons and portable weapons of mass destruction.

[yuanfen]

Hi Paul H- your levity misrepresents the real world in which Gandhi and Gandhians operated. Gandhi himself was not high caste. In developing leadership around him the folks had to be able to clean the latrines...nothing armchair about it. And he was not a fiery speaker. But still led by persuasion and example and organization.

A version of power comes from the barrel of a gun" made the Khmer Rouge possible and Kissinger's (the Nobel prize winner)
bloody hands undercut Sihanouk and helped bring about anarchy in Cambodia.
BTW- I am not ona soap box- just responding to your comments.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
and...I said shifting horse in response to situations AS they occur, not after. Again, bridge sensitivity is key-you push, I yield, and shift, allowing your energy to extend.
-Rik

One doesn't have to shift in WCK. Not only the bridge is sensitive the whole body is sensing.

Opponent pushes one doesn't yield and shift. one's Yee moves body vectors align and in the same instant opponent's force is neutralize and bounce back. shifting has lost one degree of freedom. one has been force out.

WCK is based on Small or minute details.. Called SLT. Based
Not on steel or Lion but humble human.
As it says, " Yee moves and Spirit is already there".



ChiSau is not about Bridge hand sensitivity.
Chi Sau is about something alive and ever changing.
Thus, Kiu Sau is not Chi Sau. Chi Sau doesn't fixed 12 kiu sau or 36 or 108.
all is one and one is all. It is about something alive. not something fix.
How can one fix what is alive?



Like a wind has no shape but a silk within it shown the wind. Like the water has no form but shows container's form.

The earth is wide and the heaven is vast. And, until one understand the neutralization and bounce back is once. how can one grasp at the third hand? Idea is cheap.

There are plenty of masters in WCK today can do these. They don't move thier body, they don't even move thier shoulder.


Hung GAr is not WCK. SLT is not Iron Wire. each has each's characteristics. Kok Gar Kok Faat or every house/style has thier own method. Nothing superior or inferior. A man and a woman are different.

got to go for more dreaming/training, depend who call it.

[MustafaUcozler]

Hi Hendrik,

You said that "plenty of masters can do this". This is interesting, since I have not seen many people at all who even understand and can show Wing chun properly...who are all these masters? I'm just curious.

Also, how would you definte "Yee"? Intent?

Take care,
Mustafa

[PaulH]

Hi Joy,

You ruined my humorous chat with Hendrix about the possible alternative universe and history timelines! But that is quite alright as I also enjoy your fascinating perspective on Gandhi.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
Hi Hendrik,

You said that "plenty of masters can do this". This is interesting, since I have not seen many people at all who even understand and can show Wing chun properly...who are all these masters? I'm just curious.

Also, how would you definte "Yee"? Intent?

Take care,
Mustafa

Hi Mustafa,

Since it is not good and disrespect for me to mention someone and missed out others....
so,
You can count for yourself starts from YM family elder Leong Seong, TST...... and there are other people from other families..

Since Joy, KJ, and YY knows more than me about YM family. You might want to ask their opinion privately?

Yee is intent.

[joy chaudhuri]

Paul H: Didnt intend to dampen humor-just some background on what Gandhi was about. It is an era that I know very well- first hand-not book learning. Gandhian non violence surrounded by a violent world.(War, terrorism, civil strife etc... had to learn how to take care of myself)

Hendrik- on intent... like anything else "Yee" has to be strengthened and clear. Right? Right- on shifting. Sometimes people shift prematurely because they have not devloped the ability to adjust their structure.

[TenTigers]

Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow? So far all you have done is misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions. as in, I never said slt was iron wire, or even related to it, or that there were fixed techniques in kiu sao.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow? So far all you have done is misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions. as in, I never said slt was iron wire, or even related to it, or that there were fixed techniques in kiu sao.

Hey Tiger,

Reread what I wrote.

did I only express my view or I said you said SLT was Iron wire?

It is similar to in Chi Sau,
you do yours and I do mine.
Why do you have to care what I do? See, Chi sau doesn't has to follow rigid rule...

Tiger must has confident on what tiger did. Not disturb by a Fan Tan's Mun Sau right? is Mun Sau a kiu sau? Or Mun Sau similar to the Kung Jee Fook Fu or Fu Hock Siong Kuen's throwing stone asking for path? :D

Who cares who said what or which hand is kiu sau.... the closes between two points is Yee. so everyone can get creative.
why is everyone has to draw the same conclusions? as for correctness, on who's standard? The WCK I know is like water, flexible. thus, it doesn't has 12 or 18 or 36 or 108 rules... Relax. Let's think out of box as you suggested in your first post in this topic.

May be I am nuts. May be you don't like to embrace chaos like I do. hahahah Relax. :D

Joy is right shifting at Mun Sau is no no for WCK :D
IMHO, in WCK one doesn't talk about Kiu Sau. Since one only needs ----"Feelings, nothing more then feelings...." and embrace the chaos, and like water adapt to the situation, and decide to use the yee to intent or not.

As for the third hand, that is not the third kiu sau or secret kiu sau or pre-hiding kiu sau... it is about wck is air tight and has never ending hand similar to the flow of water.

Hey, Tiger, just think I am nuts. since I live in dream and you live in a physical and logical world. In dream world, there is no limitation of logic, it is as vast as I would like it to be. since I co-found my reality. Have Fun and don't worried!

Joy, Pual, Rene, YY, KJ, John.....I know I know it is too MATRIX:D


----------

FIrst the freedom of mind and Yee, only then there is a third hand.
If the mind is rigid, then there is only a pre-set third hand, that doesn't work with advance artists because that third hand is never an alive one.

[TenTigers]

Hey Phenix!
Funny guy! Are you saying Fan,Tan, Mun sao, or Fan Tung's Mun-Sau?-'cause my Sifu used to call me fan tung when he was exasperated with me!

[yuanfen]

Hendrik sez:
Opponent pushes one doesn't yield and shift. one's Yee moves body vectors align and in the same instant opponent's force is neutralize and bounce back. shifting has lost one degree of freedom. one has been force out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then in exchange with Mustafa he says that there are people who can do this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My answer- of course there are. But many folks dont come on the net. Neither do they show and tell at the drop of a hat.
In any case, I am not in the TST line- though I have met him and poon saued briefly with him during his SF and Houston visits.
I would urge you to revisit his first article on chi sao in the VTAA
websites's article section....not the silly discussion section that is not directly run by the vtaa as I gather.
Here and there in the article he refers to yee and mind intent development, facing and chasing the shadow and very quickly and intriguingly disguising and adjusting the structure under pressure. Think about the concepts involved rather than jumping to cnclusions on the bong sao demo.
See:

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hey Phenix!
Funny guy! Are you saying Fan,Tan, Mun sao, or Fan Tung's Mun-Sau?-'cause my Sifu used to call me fan tung when he was exasperated with me!


Hey Tiger,

Live is short. Relax and have Fun.

Read some Chinese Martial art Novel as "Xiao Ao Zhiang Hu" or Siu ngo kong wu in cantonese. Get some Chinese to help you on this. May be YY can help you.

Same with the unorthodox or heretic in that novel, I like those heretic then those proper tradition disciple in that novel. un orthodox and heretic people atleast will say and admit what ever they think. the orthodox Shao Lin and Wu Dang and Hua san,.... all has to keep thier image as the first priority.

Is a monk a monk if a monk only care about how to keep his image as a monk? hahahaha. Dream Dream.... I am heretic.
Shao Lin is too proper for me.

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

Actually dream may be the very thing that helps you to overcome whatever blockages in your WC progress. In the "Artificial Intelligence" movie by Steven Spielberg, the boy robot kept dreaming that he would become human. It was this intense mental longing for the impossible that enabled him to be human in the end.

Most of Yip Man's students recalled studying WC days and nights with Yip and even dreamed of it in their sleeps. There is something mysterious and wonderful of the stuffs of dreams...

"History has proven, God has never given anyone a dream without also including the power to achieve that dream; It is up to us to claim the power and go after that dream, or just claim , it was only a dream. - Larry Bennett"

Regards,

[Ernie]

once i dreamed i was dreaming but it was just a dream

[PaulH]

Ernie,

You're very wise... Like the garden mist before the sun rises, a wise man's dream does not linger. Ha! Ha! stop trolling!

Regards,

[Ernie]

once i dreamed i was a troll only to awaken and find i was a elf trying to be a dwarf, that pretended he was a man

[PaulH]

Perfectly normal, Ernie. No one can say that you are biased.

Every successful enterprise requires three men - a dreamer, a businessman, and a son of a *****.
- Peter McArthur

[Ernie]

when one is trying to keep things air tight , there must be some form of container , or reference point to equalize the pressure
this container in a live enviroment will be ever changing , so do we get lost trying to establish the bubble , or do we pop the bubble .
in trying to maintain the bubble we might get lead astray thus lose the goal of the bubble in the first place ,

what if we eliminate the need for the bubble ,or it never presents itself as the container keeps changing at a rate we can't seal
do we abanden the concept or do we accept it and change .

o.k. what came first the chicken or the egg

[[[ don't make me break my foot off in your a$$ and knock you flat on your back---- my ghetto grandma ]]

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
when one is trying to keep things air tight , there must be some form of container , or reference point to equalize the pressure
this container in a live enviroment will be ever changing , so do we get lost trying to establish the bubble , or do we pop the ................

Within a dream in another dream, within the dreamer's dream, one does dream the past is similar to wind.

where is wind from? from a fan, need electric plug, need power cable...... are those where wind from?:confused:

[Phil Redmond]

"There is a story when I was in Taiwan visiting some professors.The prof told me, one day, one of his student told him that the westerner knowing more about Chinese Culture, since his western friend knows when Chop Stix were invented .....ect.Then, the prof told him--- your friend read about it in the book. but you use Chop stix everyday. So one read about it and one lives in it. how many way one can use chop stix? That cannot be read from book right?"
This statment seems to be another example some people thinking that non-Chinese cannot fully grasp the intricate concepts of Chinese martial arts. Are we poor gwailo doomed to mediocrity? Will we ever reach "your" level of understanding? The technical/philosophical mumbo jumbo has it's place but ultimately a punch is a punch, a block is a block a kick......well you know the drill. Master Moses Powell said in the video, "The Warrior Within", (and I'm paraphrasing), "I know guys that can do all sorts of impressive MA demos, but the bottom line is can they fight?" Doesn't the name Wing Chun Kuen imply that it is a "fighting" art? The idea that one has to understand kuen kuits and old sayings to be a successful fighter is whack. Unless you're writting a treatise Wing Chun is simple enough to get the job done using basic principles that any Nationality can grasp.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

This statment seems to be another example some people thinking that non-Chinese cannot fully grasp the intricate concepts of Chinese martial arts. Are we poor gwailo are doomed to mediocrity? Will we ever reach "your" level of understanding? The technical/philosophical mumbo jumbo has it's place but ultimately a punch is a punch, a block is a block a kick......well you know the drill. Master Moses Powell said in the video, "The Warrior Within", (and I'm paraphrasing), "I know guys that can do all sorts of impressive MA demos, but the bottom line is can they fight?" Doesn't the name Wing Chun Kuen imply that it is a "fighting" art? The idea that one has to understand kuen kuits and old sayings to be a successful fighter is whack. Unless you're writting a treatise Wing Chun is simple enough to get the job done using basic principles that any Nationality can grasp.


Reread the statement.

It is about the different of ----- Read about it and Live with it.

It is not about people thinking that non-chinese cannot fully grasp the intricate .....

Instead of look at it in a biasing way, why not trying to understand exactly what is what. For example, in this forum, people, not limited by nationality, sometimes put down or don't want to open minded on TCM model.
It is similar to trying to study physics and don't want to learn Calculus.
Well, if that is the case, how is one suppose to fully grasp the intricate.....?

On the other hand, just being good in taking a Physics exam doesn't mean can survive a Lab experiment.



"The technical/philosophical mumbo jumbo has it's place but ultimately a punch is a punch, a block is a block a kick......"

If that is the case, why don't we all go and learn ground fighting and wrestling and BJJ. Since if has been prof that Wing Chun was beaten by Wrestle right? So, why belive in those Wing Chun's mumbo jumbo about the Shao LIn ... secret moves.... Can Wing Chun walk its talk? Why do sun punch. Can one prove sun punch is stronger then rotate karate middle punch?

[Phil Redmond]

On the other hand, just being good in taking a Physics exam doesn't mean can survive a Lab experiment.
Just having studied Physics should fall into the same category. My point is the way you sometimes post. It's as though you have all the answers and and we are simply lost. Which isn't the case.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

Just having studied Physics should fall into the same category. My point is the way you sometimes post. It's as though you have all the answers and and we are simply lost. Which isn't the case.



Since this is a discussion forum, so, I take it as anyone can post thier believe, opinion, comments... on the subject freely.

As for am I have all the answers, certainly I have some but not all, I have what I inherit and might or might not be applied for others.

As you mention "we are simply lost". That "we" is an issue.
Some agree with me some not, some understand what I say some not. That is just life.

why discussing me instead of discussing technical topic? what good is discussing me? As for is it or not is it the case, by who's reference? it is just a discussion forum non is perfect. thus, people discuss.

[yuanfen]

Phil sez:
Doesn't the name Wing Chun Kuen imply that it is a "fighting" art? The idea that one has to understand kuen kuits and old sayings to be a successful fighter is whack. Unless you're writting a treatise Wing Chun is simple enough to get the job done using basic principles that any Nationality can grasp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------And also:
My point is the way you sometimes post. It's as though you have all the answers and and we are simply lost. Which isn't the case.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik also posted on the Rainbow thread- visualising
light body etc..
----------------------------------------------------------
My own comments...

1. I dont think that what Hendrik wrote implied that only one nationality can grasp wing chun. Far from it. He was distinguishing between being academic versus being expirential
and immersed in something and understanding many more things.
Thus- even though Ip Man primarily taught the forms, the theory, the applications- he also came from a tacit understanding of Chinese conceptions of the body rather than just Gray's anatomy.
While he didnt practice Chinese medicine like Leung Jan and Sun Nun and others- he(Ip Man) still pointed towards understanding the meridians and points. He made extensive notes on them.
Some copies "disappeared"- translate ripped off-including what he had given Ho Kam Ming towards the end, Ip Ching has some materials on this. Cynics can make what they want of it.
But some today are only interested in the so called fighting aspect of wing chun.

2. On the "Rainbow" thing. Hendrik may be expecting too much
IMO. One has to learn structure and rooting before going deeper
and leave structure and rooting aside..
One has to use the boat for crossing before putting it aside for the rest of the journey.

3. The "fighting" gate of wing chun is an important entry point to
a continuous journey. Sure it is a fighting art. Self defense is important... but in the process one enlarges what one means by the self.

4. Some in the Leung Jan/Ip man tradition dealt only with the fighting, some included additionally the medicine, some the health
and some had and have a "wholistic" approach. Apparently Hendrik's version of wing chun was/is more into the wholistic route thansome Ip man folk.

5. I do not think that Hendrik has made any personal superior to inferior remarks yet. Apart from problems of language usage---
there is an ancient tradition of quick verbal exchanges on subject- dialectics if you will- which was originally non western in character
-culturally- not racially.
For mere fighting- one doesnt even have to do wing chun- one can do many arts and mma. But wing chun has its unique characteristics and the wholistic approach is one way to look at it.
In sharing a different view one can sound arrogant, when in fact that is not the case.
End of brief on Hendrik's posts.

[yuanfen]

Phil sez:
Doesn't the name Wing Chun Kuen imply that it is a "fighting" art? The idea that one has to understand kuen kuits and old sayings to be a successful fighter is whack. Unless you're writting a treatise Wing Chun is simple enough to get the job done using basic principles that any Nationality can grasp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------And also:
My point is the way you sometimes post. It's as though you have all the answers and and we are simply lost. Which isn't the case.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik also posted on the Rainbow thread- visualising
light body etc..
----------------------------------------------------------
My own comments...

1. I dont think that what Hendrik wrote implied that only one nationality can grasp wing chun. Far from it. He was distinguishing between being academic versus being expirential
and immersed in something and understanding many more things.
Thus- even though Ip Man primarily taught the forms, the theory, the applications- he also came from a tacit understanding of Chinese conceptions of the body rather than just Gray's anatomy.
While he didnt practice Chinese medicine like Leung Jan and Sun Nun and others- he(Ip Man) still pointed towards understanding the meridians and points. He made extensive notes on them.
Some copies "disappeared"- translate ripped off-including what he had given Ho Kam Ming towards the end, Ip Ching has some materials on this. Cynics can make what they want of it.
But some today are only interested in the so called fighting aspect of wing chun.

2. On the "Rainbow" thing. Hendrik may be expecting too much
IMO. One has to learn structure and rooting before going deeper
and leave structure and rooting aside..
One has to use the boat for crossing before putting it aside for the rest of the journey.

3. The "fighting" gate of wing chun is an important entry point to
a continuous journey. Sure it is a fighting art. Self defense is important... but in the process one enlarges what one means by the self.

4. Some in the Leung Jan/Ip man tradition dealt only with the fighting, some included additionally the medicine, some the health
and some had and have a "wholistic" approach. Apparently Hendrik's version of wing chun was/is more into the wholistic route thansome Ip man folk.

5. I do not think that Hendrik has made any personal superior to inferior remarks yet. Apart from problems of language usage---
there is an ancient tradition of quick verbal exchanges on subject- dialectics if you will- which was originally non western in character
-culturally- not racially.
For mere fighting- one doesnt even have to do wing chun- one can do many arts and mma. But wing chun has its unique characteristics and the wholistic approach is one way to look at it.
In sharing a different view one can sound arrogant, when in fact that is not the case.
End of brief on Hendrik's posts.

[Phenix]

"Doesn't the name Wing Chun Kuen imply that it is a "fighting" art? The idea that one has to understand kuen kuits and old sayings to be a successful fighter is whack. Unless you're writting a treatise Wing Chun is simple enough to get the job done using basic principles that any Nationality can grasp."



great opinion !

but you have to check with WWB or Ng Mui if they agree with you. --HS






--------------------------------------------------------------------------And also:
My point is the way you sometimes post. It's as though you have all the answers and and we are simply lost. Which isn't the case.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik also posted on the Rainbow thread- visualising
light body etc..
----------------------------------------------------------



oh my god, is this communist china that all voice need to be turn off but Mao's the great? :D --hs


Joy,


2. On the "Rainbow" thing. Hendrik may be expecting too much
IMO. One has to learn structure and rooting before going deeper
and leave structure and rooting aside..
One has to use the boat for crossing before putting it aside for the rest of the journey.---j

I agree with you that one has to learn basic.

Certainly, i have great expectation. but then, that is better then treat everyone like baby and sing only lylaby. there are vast out there. What good is to stay in land and afraid of losing paradigm.

How are advance chinese Ma were train? Visualization is one important components. it is a fact. should we face it or call it
"My point is the way you sometimes post. It's as though you have all the answers and and we are simply lost. Which isn't the case."?
---hs





5. I do not think that Hendrik has made any personal superior to inferior remarks yet. Apart from problems of language usage---
there is an ancient tradition of quick verbal exchanges on subject- dialectics if you will- which was originally non western in character
-culturally- not racially.

For mere fighting- one doesnt even have to do wing chun- one can do many arts and mma. But wing chun has its unique characteristics and the wholistic approach is one way to look at it.
In sharing a different view one can sound arrogant, when in fact that is not the case. -j


as you know,Joy, confindent and arrogant/superiority complex are different.
i rather admit what i don't know and trying to find out what is going on...

If the ego cannot be put aside. everytime we see rich and famous people we will frame them to be bad people with no ethic and cheating.



as a story, I was alway working late as a young design engineer. Bob Pease, one of the guru in the field
http://www.elecdesign.com/Authors/Index.cfm?AuthorID=904

always pick at me on my design because he has his way of looking at things. he ****ed me off but he always get my weakness in design.

and one night i told him. ok, insult me as you like. but teach me a thing every time you insult me.

And bob told me ----'ok, and the first thing i will teach you is. don't create more alabi (sp) when your design is no good. but admit you don't know better and think hard why it is no good. "

I don't speak/ understand his english well at that time but is that matter in learning? he is a great guy among a few great men in silicon valey who taught me alots. i feel gratefull.



I also find out recently that. I jump from topic to topic because that is the right brain (right brain?) picture association functioning instead of the logical side where trying to outline thought before they flow out.

[Ernie]

Phenix



where is wind from? from a fan, need electric plug, need power cable...... are those where wind from?

around here , the wind is in the form of hot air
and it just keeps blowing and blowing and blowing

and as to were it comes from , find any one sided definitive statement and trace it to it's root
some where along the lines of '' sifu says , or yip man did ''
now if we could only stuff the third hand in that mouth and seal it to make things air tight just think of the possibilities .

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Ernie
Phenix



where is wind from? from a fan, need electric plug, need power cable...... are those where wind from?

around here , the wind is in the form of hot air
and it just keeps blowing and blowing and blowing

and as to were it comes from , find any one sided definitive statement and trace it to it's root
some where along the lines of '' sifu says , or yip man did ''
now if we could only stuff the third hand in that mouth and seal it to make things air tight just think of the possibilities .

Great Idea.

Why don't you implement it first? :D

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

It seems a few people have problems understanding you in this forum. Giving knowledge but without its understanding - the wisdom of such knowledge in life and in practice is not good. It is too mechanical and devoid of inspiration - which is your main desiring goal of communication. Not all people think like you. How can you convey ideas that can be grasped by all people? The solution lies within your creativity, intuition and intellect. You can be very eloquent and persuasive at times. Find your inspiration again.

When something can be read without effort, great effort has gone into its writing.
- Enrique Jardiel Poncela

Regards,

[Phenix]

Pual,

Thanks.

You are right.

It will be great if there is a memory dump mechine . :D



On the other hand, I also hate calculus. only after some painfull years I learn its beauty. Not an easy communication because no two protocol are the same at the first contact. BUt, then after many times when people starts to see what is going on. Then, great communication can happen. Quatum physics text books are very dull book until one find a model in one's mind which make sense for oneself. Actually, I care more to dump anything occur and let some one later discuss them with details. Can't do it all. let the future generation has chance to look into things and examining them. Right or wrong up to them. Not interest to persuade people since it is not a commecial action but a discussion. People will like me or not like me that is a given.
But, I guess it makes more sense when people thinking in the way of not like this topic or that topic which I post instead of me.
Different things between me and the topic I post. And my be I purposely make it bad because the key of how we recalled things are emphasis and relationship. sweet is emphasis, painfull is emphasis. No clue about what is going on is relationship totally block. and that is great. when this blockage somehow someday removed, it is a break through. IMHO, we need break throught
thinking. I rather people hate me and breakthrough later then love me but doesn't really know what I am talking about. How many times we have a great math teacher and having a great grade in that class, but forgot everything after that class is over?

[TenTigers]

bottom line. define the following:
1) five element hands potential concept of Fujien white crane
2) localized tensing system and non-localized tensing system-what is it, how are they used ? be as explicit as possible

thanx

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

I understand your point completely. Back in the old days, Continental European mathematicians dueled with each others by posting math problems to see who can solve them first. There were certain kind of integral math problems that were just too hard to break through until Newton and Leibnitz invented Calculus. Your approach too may be intelligible only to a limited few who know TCM. I'm not convinced that TCM should be the main calculus tool to investigate certain aspects of WC. While its power is greatly invaluable, I prefer to explain things in more fundamental things of life as time goes by...

Regards,

[Ernie]

Hendrix,

Why don't you implement it first?

but that would be to much like right and imply that i give a rats a$$ , sadly only the rat cares for his own a$$

do you prefer to be dazzled by the distortion of multi layered dialogue
or seek the clarity of a single true note

conversations here remind me of the differences bethween heavy metal and jazz and then jazz to blues
most speak with the loud harshnesn of metal
you speak in the layered broken rhytems of jazz
i prefer the single note filled with feeling and soul of a blues man

then of course i can't for get the classical , as much as i try:D

Hendrix,
nothing intentional just rants ;)

[TenTigers]

Ernie,
Clapton, Beck, Roy Buchannan, Steve Vai, BB King, Carlos Santana-all have the ability to play that one note, and move you emotionally, and spiritually. Yep, and then there's Yngwie Malmsteem-who plays speed garbage, well you know the deal.
Then again, Paganinni's 24 Caprices-where does that fall in?
Bottom line, I would like to here some straightfoeard answers rather than 'baffeling them with Bull****

[Ernie]

can i get a amen

[TenTigers]

Fripp is truly amazing...but did you see the G3 tour with Vai, Satch, and Fripp? Fripp was playing his soundscapes, or whatever he calls it, and although his technique and vision is amazing-there was a distinct difference in the energy level, and at the jam at the end, he sounded like an acordian player. I also had the (mis)fortune to see Alan Holdsworth play. Again, as far as technical expertise, he was phenomenal, but BORING. I'm a guitarist, and I can stare at his fingers in awe, but after awhile technical virtuosity is no substitute for raw energy, emotion, and feeling-soul. EVH's early stuff was earth-shattering, which is pretty amazing for basic pentatonic blues scale riffing, but after Hagar joined, and they turned into Journey-the energy just died.
Personally, I still listen to Court of the Crimson King, In the Wake of Posiedon, Lark's Tongue in Aspic, Lizard, and Red. Hey, anyone have any oldl Gentle Giant stuff? Octopus, In a Glass House, Three Friends, also would like to find some Groundhogs-split pt I. Pity-all my vinyl albums were stored by my ex-and they are warped beyond hope-ahh, to think I'll never hear Van Ackerman's Profile album ever again.

[Phil Redmond]

Ten Tigers
I got to hang out with his band after he opened for Deo in CT.
I still have a 5 Pound Note signed by him and the band.
Speed garbage/"baroque" rock is a good way to describe his music. Sometimes simplicity works better with many things in life including WC.
Phil

[TenTigers]

Hi Phil-
I really did try to give Malmsteen a chance- I went out and bought a cd (Marching On, I thiunk) and I do admire his skill-(Dang! This guy is playing Paganinni riffs on guitar!) but there was no feeling, and I couldn't deal with the psuedo-operatic singer-nausea-ngoh jingngoh ow!! But I did try. Heck, I even tried to listen to Wu-Tang Clan-nope, couldn't do it.
Right now, I'm listening to alot of Zakk Wylde. I read some interviews with him, and really liked his attitude, ("The guy asked me, "Could you use like, a telecaster through a twin for this song?" and I said, "F*** you, it's a Fu**ing Les Paul through a fu**ing Marshall!")so I gave it a listen-some is ok, kinda like Black Zeppilen, um, Led Sabbath? Some is nothing special, he sure likes those pinch harmonics!
Hey, if you are in NY, Johnny Winter is playing in a small club next month!

[TenTigers]

Birds of Fire was groundshaking. Recently I saw Steve Morse and he played with his Steve Morse Band,and then with the Dixie Dreggs-that's when I saw Jerry Goodman-(violininst from Mahavishnu Orchestra)blew my mind-I had no idea! Great show. Steve Morse plays like crazy, and smiles like he's having the time of his life-he really connects with the crowd.

[TenTigers]

don't get me wrong, I am definately a fan of Randy-have the tribute album-it rocks. I also like the story of how Randy auditioned for Ozzy, as told by Sharon-that this skinny little kid with a beat up guitar played through a pignose and blew the doors off of everyone at the audition. ps-which albums is John Luc-Ponte playing on with McLaughlin? I heard he also played with Zappa. I was reading an article on JM, and the way he plays, due to his spirituality and incredible mastery of the instrument, is he gets into a state of bliss, nothingness, samadhi, mo-wai,wu-chi, and his spirit freely expresses itself through the instrument.
(hey, pretty kewl how I bring this thread back to martial arts, huh?) meanwhile, I'm still looking at the fretboard, and playing mostly pentatonic, and just touching on modes. Kind of like sparring with specific techniques and drills rather than spontaneously expressing the form/no form.