View Full Version : Shuul's Daily Topic #1
Shuul Vis
07-02-2003, 06:57 PM
Im trying to help put more focus on kung fu related posts and this is one way i have decided to do that. Each day i will post a technique, describe it in detail, then ask for your opinions on that technique's strengths, weaknesses, and overall general use in YOUR style. Also state whether it is a technique that you use and tell us why and how you use it.
Technique #1: Cross Block
The hands shoot out along intercepting paths until they reach an almost full extension of the arms forming an "x" or cross. The inner part of the cross is the usual blocking surface area. The block can be used to the front or side, high or low.
My Opinion: First of all this is a block i only moderately use and only in specific situations but i think is worth investigating. My initial impression of it is that it uses both arms to do what only a single arm could do just as well. So why use it? For one, it covers a large area as it moves into its final position scouping in the attacker's limbs so you dont need to be very accurate with it. Secondly, its a very strong block because of its shape and the fact that both arms are reinforcing it. And lastly, the main reason i use it, is because its scouping nature allows a very easy grab of the opponent's limb immediately after it, especially against kicks. My primary use of the cross block is against a kicker that doesnt recoil his kicks quickly. Its strong enough to receive a powerful blow, and if not you can just scoup the attack and turn, going with the force as you ensnare the kick. I combine this with an inner sweep taking the opponent down, or kick his other leg while tossing his kicking leg away.
So lets hear your thoughts on the cross block.
Serpent
07-02-2003, 07:06 PM
Try using it as a strike too, especially at the oponent's neck if the chance arises.
Then grab the shoulders/shirt/collarbones, etc. for some nasty grappling and knee action.
say it's a right leg front type kick
and you're in a right lead
x-block it but try and be soft with it
as you recieve the kick cross behind with your left foot
towards their centerline. you must sink low as you cross
as you sink pull the kick up to your shoulder and transition
the hands so that your left hand is pressing down on the shin
and your right hand/arm is scooping at the thigh
uncoil from the cross to a horse, lift with rt arm/shoulder
press down with lt hand
some may say that you are turning your back to the opponent
and you are, a bit (not a brit)
but you are also lifting their entire body at the same time
so, if you practice it, and are reasonably quick, you won't get hit
very hard
Shuul Vis
07-02-2003, 07:43 PM
Yeah, its really useful as a set up for a standing grappling technique.
must add that the working assumption is the same as you have said SV, that the attacker is not retracting his kick as quick as he could.
ahh, if this is pulled off succesfully they must do a front breakfall to avoid damage.
you can also adjust your timing of the throw to disrupt their breakfall so they DO take damage.
also, an adustment of the angle of the cross step can be made so that you are sweeping thier standing leg as well.
and you can crunch their nuts with your spine as well.
Shuul Vis
07-02-2003, 07:47 PM
Right, this $hit doesnt work too well if they recoil quickly.
nope, and for me, I must have already assessed that they are not a whole lot faster than me.
cuz, most everybody IS faster than I.
and, if it all fugs up, just try sitting on their back leg wit yer buttocks.
Becca
07-02-2003, 07:51 PM
Serp- Oh yea! "Phone-booth fighting" at it's finest! :cool: Perfect set-up for an arm bar/knee to the face.
the main reason i use it, is because its scouping nature allows a very easy grab of the opponent's limb immediately after it, especially against kicks.
... Am trying in vain to remember the name of the kick that can anialate this block. :confused: :(
Anywho. The senario goes: They come at you with a punch, you rotate tward thier arm, block, then hit them with the x-block to groin and thorax. They shoot out a sloppy kick to either knock you away or set up. You grab the leg. They then perform this kick. It is similar to a spinning side kick, but the way the foot is positioned, it will slip right between your elbows and your arms will guide it right into your chin.
D@mn. Wish I could remember the name of it...:(
joedoe
07-02-2003, 07:54 PM
Personally I think this block is most useful when your opponent out-powers you. As you said, why use two hands if you can do it with one? The downside of this block is that it is relatively slow and it leaves you somewhat exposed.
actually, I would maybe (maybe) attempt to break an elbow of the xblocking arms with a crescent kick.
another weakness of the xblock vs. a kick is that your head is low and both your hand are tied up.
time for bed, need my buuty sleep...
i agree, see above, about the exposure but I wouldn't say it was especially slow.
and, yes, to it being usefull against a stronger opponent...just not a faster one.
anyone have it in a form?
it's the first move of one of mine, followed by that cross step and throw...
******, I really need my butty sleep
Becca
07-02-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Oso
actually, I would maybe (maybe) attempt to break an elbow of the xblocking arms with a crescent kick.
But your aim must be just right or it will deflect off and swing them around to get your unprotected flank....
As you said, why use two hands if you can do it with one? The downside of this block is that it is relatively slow and it leaves you somewhat exposed.
Slow?!? It's a natural extention from a inside fist block! And you use it when you don't know what they are going to throw next but can't back up out of thier strike zone. High or low, kick/punch/palm strike... it will block or deflect almost anything to some degree and requires little set-up.
joedoe
07-02-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Becca
But your aim must be just right or it will deflect off and swing them around to get your unprotected flank....
Slow?!? It's a natural extention from a inside fist block! And you use it when you don't know what they are going to throw next but can't back up out of thier strike zone. High or low, kick/punch/palm strike... it will block or deflect almost anything to some degree and requires little set-up.
OK, slow is probably a subjective comment. To me it is slow, but maybe I don't execute it too well. However it does leave you exposed because of the simple fact that it requires both hands.
Serpent
07-02-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Becca
Serp- Oh yea! "Phone-booth fighting" at it's finest! :cool:
Heh. Nice description! ;)
Becca
07-02-2003, 08:18 PM
However it does leave you exposed because of the simple fact that it requires both hands.
Agreed. It should be trained so you can use it effectively in a pinch, but I wouldn't use it unless I absolutly had to. All the opponant has to do is back away before you get that arm bar.
Becca
07-02-2003, 08:26 PM
Heh. Nice description!
It is rather good, Yes? Wish I could take credit for that one. I heard it from our sub Sifu last night. S'posed to mean close-skill fighting...
Shuul Vis
07-02-2003, 08:34 PM
If you do it to a kick you should be just out of reach of thier hands as long as you do it correctly. And you arent completely tied up because you can still use your elbows to block with while maintaining the cross block. Kind of like a bong sau if you are familiar with wing chun.
Becca
07-02-2003, 08:55 PM
Shuul- I was always taught that x-block is an emergancy close-skill technique. If you are in a bad position or off ballence, you can usually reset yourself by moving in. If you are moving in, you might as well keep going and connect with groin and thorax. But if you are far enough away to be out of arm range, and positioned/ballenced well enough that you don't need the momentum to help block, then chances are you could use a block or evasion that is tailored for the strike.
Yes, we use Bong Sau, too. but your forward led flank is still wide open. And your groin could be targeted with an oblique strike on the rear leg side. This is assuming you train to use x-block from lunge, forward bow, cat, or hook stance. 'Spose you could also use Shan Chin, but then you'd be open to a sweep. Hourglass and monkey stances wouldn't help you much with ballence in this application.
Shuul Vis
07-02-2003, 10:14 PM
I mainly use this as an emergency technique when i am too low to block an incomming kick using my legs. I scoup the attackers kicking leg and from that position either kick their standing leg or do some Shuai-Chiao throwing or sweeping technique. I dont see how my groin is exposed in anyway. i am too far away for them to strike with the hands, and even if they do i control thier center with the captured leg and can diminish whatever power they would hope to achieve if they could reach me. This is NOT a close in-fighting skill for me. Its interesting that it is one for you Becca, and that is one of the reasons i started this thread...to find out how everyone else perceives things.
Becca
07-02-2003, 10:48 PM
It is definantly a sign of how similar yet different Kung Fu styles can be. We use the same techniques, sometimes call it the same thing, but apply them in polar-opposite ways.
Using x-block as a close-skill is fairly new to me. I used to consider it a nearly useless technique, but White Dragon Fist uses it quite a bit. Sometimes it is a block only and is to set us up for a spin-type kick. Other times it is an attack and is followed up with an arm or leg lock. But we are never "too low" to block a kick. We focus on both extreme low stances/postures as well as higher ones, including crane. We even have a few effective defences against leg and ankle sweeps.
If I had to sum up White Dragon Fist's attitude about fighting, I would have to say "down, dirty and QUICK." This style was developed by Daniel K Pai, who was well known for his fighting in and out of the ring. All of the beuty that was taught by his grandfather, Po Pai, is still there, but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of fighting, we try to get it over with in 5 or less exchanges and go at in no-holds-barred.
I dont see how my groin is exposed in anyway.
Trust me, it is.;) A simple spear to the groin can be effected with a quick turn of shuffle. Then follow up with a good rip/pull to finish you off. We call this "Removing The Jewels" (No I'm not kidding; we actually call it that.:D )
Shuul Vis
07-02-2003, 11:05 PM
I dont think you are picturing what im doing correctly. You cant turn because i control your leg and through that your pelvis and rooting. And i am out of the reach of your hands.
When i said i do this when i am too low to block a kick with my legs i meant i was too low to use my own legs to block an incomming kick. When you are in a very low stance you dont have time to raise up and do a stop kick or shin block, so i use a cross block to snare the kick and follow with a throw.
Shuul Vis
07-03-2003, 01:21 AM
Awesome! Can you believe it? We didnt get off topic once. All straight kung fu talk. Hopefully the next technique snags you guys just as well.
Fred Sanford
07-03-2003, 03:21 AM
this is not a technique i could see myself ever using. anyone ever use this in a real fight?
But your aim must be just right or it will deflect off and swing them around to get your unprotected flank....
yes, your aim must be right but I doubt they would 'swing' off.
their arms are cross and trying to grab your leg. you may not succeed in anything but getting a dumb look from them. the crescent to the elbows would be sort of a sacrafice type kick as you would have both feet off the ground to accomplish it. but hey, you were maybe going down anyway.
I think I see a difference in approach on this block. I've always approached it from a trapping perspective whether low against a kick or high against an arm. So, speed is not as important. I think it's on the retraction that joedoe may be feeling the lag and I can totally agree with that. I don't worry about it cuz I usually don't try to retract it but follow as my arms snake thier limb.
worst case, I just crash into them with my whole body and sort it out in a second.:D
becca, I don't agree with you about the open groin. A low "Leopard at the Crossroads" ;)covers my groin. If you disengage your trapped leg then we are back at neutral and not really talking about what you can do from the trapped position. But, again, that's from my perspective that you are immediately trapping and holding the leg and not just blocking.
SV, wouldn't you have to bar the need to most effectively control thier rooted leg? My defense against this would be to try and fold my caught leg and get closer to you. And, I would not think that my opponent would be out of reach of my hands because you are going to be approximately 1/2 way up my shin with your trap, maybe further. You would be in range for arm attacks at almost any point. You would surely be covering and attempting to jink any movement of theirs but you aren't immune to them.
A most Excellent conversation.
Fred,
yes, used it to trap an arm down and then disarmed the tire iron.
but, that was the only instance ever in a fight.
Becca
07-03-2003, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Shuul Vis
I dont think you are picturing what im doing correctly. You cant turn because i control your leg and through that your pelvis and rooting. And i am out of the reach of your hands.
When i said i do this when i am too low to block a kick with my legs i meant i was too low to use my own legs to block an incomming kick. When you are in a very low stance you dont have time to raise up and do a stop kick or shin block, so i use a cross block to snare the kick and follow with a throw.
Well... I am, in a way... it's just that once I start my reply, I forget that we aproach this technique from completely diferent sides? I don't even engage with x-block if I'm more than 12 inches away from them. From 12 inches there is NO WAY you could grab trap my leg becuase I wouldn't try to kick you. I would go strait for an arm bar. If you were to back away far enough I could kick, I would likely use a spin kick. I theory uou could grap it, but experience has taught me that this is one kcick that is very hard to scoop if it has much momentom.
as far as blocking kicks, most stances can block them, even low ones. Just pull you knees together as you twit tward your forward leg. I guess it helps if you train to take hits like this...
interesting, I wouldn't even consider this block at that close a range.
diversity rules
red5angel
07-03-2003, 06:36 AM
I don't see a cross block as being all that useful or safe for that matter. Not only are you committing two arms to one attack, but it seems like a lot of people like the low block to stop kicks. I don't believe in stopping kicks with the arms unless you are in close to the thigh.
Too much trapping potential for someone who knows what they are doing. Too much accidentally trapping yourself as well.
I see the cross block as a training tool. Wing Chun does it in their forms but it's to find your centerline and to train so that each arm can be used individually in a similar motion.
well, if your only point of reference for a cross block is wing chun...
;)
red5angel
07-03-2003, 07:38 AM
Don't make me come over there....
Thats not my only reference, it was common in Shorin Ryu as well when I studied. I haven't seen it in Kali or SPM yet but who knows.
pack a lunch buddy...
actually I adopted a wc movement I use quite a bit...that kinda side xblock thingie that probably has a name like fat sow or something....
it sounds like SV and I might use it with the same intent but becca is completely differnent and you don't use it at all.
red5angel
07-03-2003, 07:45 AM
I'm sure people can make it work, obviously you have in the past, I just don't think it's "smart" ma, it ties up to much. Could be my wingchun roots speaking though.....
sure, that's it's weakness, it's not perfect, it's just an option for the right set of circumstances..
red5angel
07-03-2003, 07:52 AM
Yeah, come to think of it I think I am a more "general" technique sort of man. I like the basics, the catch alls. I don't go into much for the real specific stuff.
Gotta go with R5A on this one. And what's with the WCers bringing it inwards to go from low to high? You could do the same by rolling the forearms up.
red5angel
07-03-2003, 07:55 AM
ZIM, not sure what you mean by bringing it in? In the first form you see it in some lineaes in the very beginning, the hands come out and down, cross, then you roll the forearms up.
dezhen2001
07-03-2003, 07:56 AM
hmmm, ive been taught an "x-block" a few different ways...
in shotokan: if its a low block - 1 hand is to parry, the other (top hand) is to strike. I have used this in sparring to block a round/front kick and strike to the inner-thigh or groin area.
shorinji kempo: they use a nice side "x-block" to deal with a roundhouse kick, but its not static. I used this against a kickboxing guy :) As the kick comes in to your left side (for eg.) step with your left foot across your body, and do the block to your left side (right hand high, left low). At the same time pivot round and shoot out a front kick as you are parrying their kick, the hip twist giving you a lot of power and also helping the movement of the parry.
The hands, once contact is made can "close" to trap the leg or whatever else, its not static and rigid like some other blocks i have seen
wing chun: uses "gaan sau" and "kwun sau" which are 2-handed blocks, but i am not so good at them yet :) I have used something like them and kicked the standing leg, but not in sparring, only training.
dawood
i think the spirit of the discussion was simply what could be done with this one technique. not whether it was the ultimate super technique. everybody pointed out it's weaknesses and there is no technique out there that is perfect or counterless.
if a kick is coming in strong and they are commited to it the I do have a decent shot of entering with the xblock to a trap/wrap on the leg and a throw out of it. I might take a hit but part of my plan is to turtle up a bit at the trap and accept the shot to my back or back of head, it won't be full strength because his root is compromised and my foot work keeps me moving in a spiraling pattern that puts me back outside of their striking range, throw or no throw. don't think of it as static.
dezhen2001
07-03-2003, 08:03 AM
I might take a hit but part of my plan is to turtle up a bit at the trap and accept the shot to my back or back of head, it won't be full strength because his root is compromised and my foot work keeps me moving in a spiraling pattern that puts me back outside of their striking range, throw or no throw. don't think of it as static.
:)
dawood
red5angel
07-03-2003, 08:03 AM
Oso, absolutely, but I just don't see it as being useful really at all. O fcourse this is just my opinion and if yours differs your wrong.
dezhen2001
07-03-2003, 08:05 AM
wow so many posts as i was replying lol
dawood
Oso, absolutely, but I just don't see it as being useful really at all. O fcourse this is just my opinion and if yours differs your wrong.
LOL !
fa_jing
07-03-2003, 08:15 AM
GM Chueng of WC used the x-block in a demo of a knife disarm. I first learned this block in Tae-kwondo, and I've seen it used extensively in a Kuk Sool article. But yeah in Wing Chun we usually use the Kan Sao and Kwan Sao, which are two -handed blocks with some scissoring action and that absorb the force through the clever leverage of both arms. However, I've only used these blocks a few times in sparring, usually I find that one hand is sufficient, then again it's just sparring so they aren't throwing full force. I tried my kwan sao vs. SevenStar's Thai round kick - he later said he was only using 30% force - but it was enough to shake up the other guys he tried it on - while when I took it with my Kwan Sao (stationary), the force was perfectly transferred through my limbs and I barely felt a thing.
dezhen2001
07-03-2003, 08:17 AM
i wouldnt like to be kicked by sevenstar - even at 30% :D
dawood
red5angel
07-03-2003, 08:17 AM
fa_jing, I have seen that "knife disarm" a few times and I trust that use even less...
R5- It was just a question regarding its use in the forms. Like this: in WC i see it done as put out the arms, x them, then bring them up by having the hands inside and the elbows out front so the hands flip.
I was saying that the forearms could just roll, like )( with the hands outside/ in front the whole time. I don't get the tying yourself up part, but maybe thats a jing development.
All that said, I don't trust it as a technique because it commits too many tools. Against kicks I would prefer to use another kick and stop it where it starts.
dezhen2001
07-03-2003, 08:39 AM
our arms do roll with the arms outside each time... if i think thats what u mean :confused: ive seen other ways of doing it like you said though...
dawood
red5angel
07-03-2003, 08:42 AM
I'm with dezhen on this, however there are many ways of doing it. I have heard all sorts of "translations" for it's use, the one that makes the most sense to me is just defining the centerline.
Hah- another point of contention amongst the WC/WT/VT etc? Thank you for clarifying. So ppl do it different ways. I can see 'defining the centerline', but that just makes it an opening sequence, not a technique.
fa_jing
07-03-2003, 09:22 AM
Yup, you either flip the arms up or roll them up depending on which WC lineage you study. IMO either the application has been lost, or it's a "mother movement" from which the kan and kwan sao are derived.
red5angel
07-03-2003, 09:53 AM
IMO either the application has been lost, or it's a "mother movement" from which the kan and kwan sao are derived.
I think you said what I was trying to say :)
Christopher M
07-03-2003, 09:59 AM
I'm with Fred and Red on this.
A blocking strategy is a "trigger" for your opponent to try and hit you again, which isn't the kind of thing you generally want. It also sets up a rhythm, which you only want if you're faster and stronger.
I can't imagine doing this except as an utter "brain-****."
dezhen2001
07-03-2003, 10:03 AM
i always thought the centreline marking showed the position for using a high and low gaan sau with both hands? :confused: never gven it much thought :)
Also for me that kind of x-block is just used in a transtiory position - i wouldnt be keeping t there i would either be going in or keeping the heck out the way! :D
dawood
Shuul Vis
07-03-2003, 10:07 AM
OSO
You and i are on the same page i think here. Im not trying to say this block is the end all be all of defense by any means at all. i dont really even like this move. But it does have specialized uses. Thats why i chose it for the topic. I knew i would get mixed responses.
dezhen2001
07-03-2003, 10:10 AM
either that or you just wanted to confuse us all - and it worked! :D
dawood
GunnedDownAtrocity
07-03-2003, 02:09 PM
fa_jing, I have seen that "knife disarm" a few times and I trust that use even less...
i trust all knife disarms even less.
SV, I think it's just the natural tendancy here at KFO for people to say that something you are doing sucks.
Everything can be good and Everything can suck.
In this instance I think the simple fact that the xblock/parry/trap is found in a wide variety of martial systems proves that it doesn't totally suck ass as a technique.
Becca
07-03-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
i always thought the centreline marking showed the position for using a high and low gaan sau with both hands? :confused: never gven it much thought :)
Also for me that kind of x-block is just used in a transtiory position - i wouldnt be keeping t there i would either be going in or keeping the heck out the way! :D
dawood
Very transitory. Holding it would be inviting a smack-down. :( It is basicly an "o-sh|t!" move, to be used when you let yourself get in a bad spot. Everyone occasionally lets this hapen, so it makes sence to train it.
I am a bit suprized to find out that most styles don't seem to use this as a close skill. It's very effective up close. It can start as a block, and by the time they get another punch in you are too close for it to be effective. Then you can turn this block into a double punch of your own and get what ever arm they left sticking out and apply an arm bar.
They can still kick at you, but once again, you are too close for them to nail you full force and too stunned from the groin/thorax hits to realize all they have to do is side step away.
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