How do *you* define "Grandmaster?"

[Ravenshaw]

In as commercial a society as today's, titles such as "master" and "grandmaster" and "super-honorable-master-of-the-ways-of-kicking-your-a$$-while-being-humble-at-the-same-time" are thrown around like confetti. But what do you really think a "Grandmaster" is/should be? I've been given several answers and some of these are above.

If you have another idea, please share.

[Serpent]

It's a western ideal, usually used by people with an ego that greatly outweighs their ability.

[joedoe]

In the most literal sense - someone whose student has become a master. Which leads to the equally sticky question "How do you define a master?"

[Becca]

A teacher who's student has become a teacher is no better than he/she was before the student became a teacher. But they were not Grandmasters prior, so they should not become one for this reason alone.

However, CMA has a long tradition of only passing the secrits of any given style to the elite of the teacher's pupils. A Grandmaster might have 40 Sifus but only pass on the full style to one or two. Those that hold the full style, and therefore become part of the liniage, are the only ones with enough distinction to be placed higher than his/her peers.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Becca
A teacher who's student has become a teacher is no better than he/she was before the student became a teacher. But they were not Grandmasters prior, so they should not become one for this reason alone.

However, CMA has a long tradition of only passing the secrits of any given style to the elite of the teacher's pupils. A Grandmaster might have 40 Sifus but only pass on the full style to one or two. Those that hold the full style, and therefore become part of the liniage, are the only ones with enough distinction to be placed higher than his/her peers.

I guess that is what I was getting at with the question "How do you define a Master?"

[Oso]

A student could actually be better than their sifu.

Maybe that's it: If you can teach people to be better than you are at something you know than maybe, just maybe, you really do know what the hell you are talking about.

???

[Surferdude]

Has to be at least 100 years old, with a long beard and knows everything, and when you ask a question they give answers in riddles, or proverbs:D

[David Jamieson]

Grandmaster is a relatively new term in Kungfu circles.

It has been used to replace "Sigung".

It doesn't really have the same meaning though.

I am one who is not in favour of using the term because it is misrepresentative on a few levels.

cheers

[apoweyn]

Mixed feelings, really. Grandmaster Canete uses the term. And I respect him a great deal. But my respect has sod all to do with the term and everything to do with the man. So while I think the term is completely inconsequential, I'm not going to assert that he shouldn't use it.

Better to just ignore the title and look at the individual. After all, if you went to a new doctor's office for the first time and he turned out to be a cross-eyed drunk, you wouldn't shrug that off because he had the title 'doctor', right? You'd presumably find another one.


Stuart B.

[dezhen2001]

for me, i sometimes say grandmaster, but i generally mean Tai Sigung... that is my teachers, teachers, teacher. Yip Chun for ME for example, which does not mean for neccessarily anyone else outside my lineage.

Usually i use Sifu, Sigung or Tai Sigung, but the last two only for MY teachers teacher etc. For anyone elses treacher i would use Sifu.

make sense? :confused:

dawood

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Surferdude
Has to be at least 100 years old, with a long beard and knows everything, and when you ask a question they give answers in riddles, or proverbs:D

you forgot they can hear how many people there are in the room by their breathing. :D

[Surferdude]

No they can smell 'em!!!:D :eek:
Or just sense them

[norther practitioner]

: If you can teach people to be better than you are at something you know than maybe, just maybe, you really do know what the hell you are talking about.

hel| yeah...:D

I like the whole individual thing, not the title... although I'll give some respect towards all grand masters... 'cause even though they deserve it, some of there people are decieving others a whole nother generation away.

[Dark Knight]

Today everyone wants to be a "Grand Master". There are a couple "Sokeship Council"'s out there that will sell you the title.

Go to Phil Porters site and he will sell you the rank and title.

Don't be imnpressed by people with the title, most of it is ego, I have met 35 year old Grand Masters. Even one 19 year old 10th Degree.

Buyer beware.

[hasayfu]

I like Serpents defn the best.

Joedoe is close but misses an important aspect.

As Kung Lek says, in TCMA terms, Grandmaster is the english translation for Si-Gung. Si-Gung only means MY teacher's teacher. So calling someone Si-Gung Wong is like calling him Grand-Daddy Wong. You would only call people in YOUR direct line that title. Tai-Si_Gung, BTW, is MY teacher's, teacher's teacher.

Now people have co-opted the term in english. They have taken it to mean an Uber-master. It can also get complicated because while Sifu can means teacher, it can be used as master when refering to people outside of your line. In english, a parallel would be father vs. Mr. for the two Sifus. Joe Smith wouldn't call his dad, father Smith or his father's friend Father Green.

This gets us back to Serpents definition.

[rubthebuddha]

i guess maybe a technical basis for this would be a someone who not only knows the entire system, but has mastered the entire system -- to me, that's a technical gm. a normal master would be someone who has the majority of the system and has mastered what he or she knows. in wing chun, a master could be someone who has mastered all the empty hand stuff and perhaps the dummy and is working on the weapons. he or she doesn't know everything about the system, but knows a lot and knows it extremely well. a grandmaster could be someone who knows the whole style and whose learning has passed the practical side and exlores the more natural side of the art, or arts in general.

on the flip side, a master could just be a master when his master says he or she is. one should never argue with his or her master -- they'll beat you for it. :)

[David Jamieson]

on the flip side, a master could just be a master when his master says he or she is

You could look at it like that, or you could be called master by those who recognize it in you, or by virtue of deeds and skill.

Self actualization is personal mastery. It is something you are led to or work towards. It is not something that can be given like a book or an object.

Master does not mean "best" either. It means mastery of a given and specific set of studies.

anyway, just sayin

cheers

[African Tiger]

I like Dark Knight's answer, actually. But we are talking personal definitions? I assume that's what you meant by "How do YOU define..."?

Oh, there are no living 10th degree masters, boys and girls. Ain't possible. I'm not even sure Lu Dong Bin could be considered 10th degree! :D

But I voted for Recognized by the Chinese Govt., seeing as how Sifu Totten holds a 9th Dan certificate from Beijing (sp?), celebrating that achievement. Oddly enough, Sifu T doesn't allow us to call him "Doctor" or "Sigung" or "Grandmaster", just Sifu.

[joedoe]

Another point for me is that the titles of sifu/master or sigung/grandmaster are not ones that you use to introduce yourself. They are titles that other people use to describe/honour you.