Sonnet From A Great Grandmaster [Archive]

Tainan Mantis

07-03-2003, 03:29 AM

A quote from Huang Hanhsun(WHF)'s Beng Bu book.

I have enclosed a file with quote and picture so others can make ammendments to my translation.

Later I will post a relevent question.

Here, this quote is attributed to WHF's grandteacher Fan Hsudong.
This sonnet is specifically written for the enclosed picture.

"Fanche and Mantis rely upon each other,
Especially good is attacking from afar and striking when near,
The step of the Tiger Riding Posture is a sudden leap,
The uniting and dispersing changing strike is most reliable"

ninjaboy

07-03-2003, 07:37 AM

would someone please explain for me how the term 'fanche' is being used in this picture? i'm familiar with our version of this form and we of course have this posture but i would've described the right arm in this pic more as 'kwa'. anyone have time to expand on that?

thx!
neil

mantis108

07-03-2003, 10:41 AM

First and foremost, great stuff Tainan. Thanks

My thoughts on this:

<<<Here, this quote is attributed to WHF's grandteacher Fan Hsudong.
This sonnet is specifically written for the enclosed picture.>>>

We have to bare in mind that a lot of "saying" or material for that matter would be attributed to the "higher ups" due to convention of the time. I am not saying this is not real just that we have to put a disclaimer as a prudent measure IMHO.

"Fanche and Mantis rely upon each other,"

I think rely is kind of relative. It implies that Fanche's weakness is being covered by mantis and vice versa. I am more inclined to think that the underlying message is that they "work together" as a pair. Nothing wrong with your translation. Just my presonal choice would be towards "togetherness". I think in this case, the hands are Fanche while the stance is mantis.

"Especially good is attacking from afar and striking when near,"

Good choice of words. It leads into line 4.

<<<The step of the Tiger Riding Posture is a sudden leap,>>>

I think this line describes the dynamic disposition of the stance/posture. Bun Teng is a term for describing the horses running and kicking motion. In relation to this move, the feeling should be like a horse being let out of the corral. I think sudden leap is very literal in this case. It works. BTW, is that where your question lies?

"The uniting and dispersing changing strike is most reliable"

This is rather confusing. I think the message is neutralizing incoming attacking and becoming a counter attacking ( or strike which echoes line 2) immediately as if the moves are one motion. There is a slight difference in timing between this and attacking defense simultaneously. It is of note that this sonnet seems to suggest the "proper" use of Fanche is a strike. I don't have a suggestion for the translation of this line yet. :(

Also another thing of note is that this move's footwork, the little hop forward, which has several variants in the form, seems to be where the name of the form came from (at least it would seem so in the 7 Stars tradition). Actually, I don't think everyone would do a little hop. Some do some don't. Personally, I think the little hop is where the "secret" is.

Just my take on the sonnet and the move.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

ninjaboy

07-03-2003, 12:49 PM

hey bungda07,

thx but would you expand on this left arm fanche regarding direction of movement, attacking surface, etc??

hey mantis108,

i also think the 'little hop' is key but we play with a stomp, not a hop.

thx,
neil

mantis108

07-03-2003, 01:41 PM

I considered to say stomp, which I believe Tainan showed me that too in his version (Taiwan 7 Stars?). But then I thought "little hop" would be more in keeping with the rest of the "footwork" of the form IMHO. The stomp does lend to the power generation in this case. I think it is more or less a question of "hard" (stomp) or "soft" (hop) approach to the same move. Either way would be fine IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

-N-

07-03-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by mantis108
I considered to say stomp, which I believe Tainan showed me that too in his version (Taiwan 7 Stars?). But then I thought "little hop" would be more in keeping with the rest of the "footwork" of the form IMHO.
English language doesn't really have a suitable word for this footwork which we refer to as din bo. I think you'd have to call it a stomping hop.

We use this footwork for quickly breaking inertia and generating striking force within a short distance. Sometimes people have a problem due to stomping only, and making lots of noise without generating any forward force. Or else they have a problem due to hopping only which takes too long and doesn't generate sharp explosive power.

For us, we do it as a combination of a hop/drop and a stomp so that the body becomes unweighted and the impact of the "stomp" propels the body and strike forward in a sharp explosive manner. I use this footwork frequently.

N.

B.Tunks

07-03-2003, 04:05 PM

-N-

Originally posted by -N-

English language doesn't really have a suitable word for this footwork which we refer to as din bo. I think you'd have to call it a stomping hop.

We use this footwork for quickly breaking inertia and generating striking force within a short distance. Sometimes people have a problem due to stomping only, and making lots of noise without generating any forward force. Or else they have a problem due to hopping only which takes too long and doesn't generate sharp explosive power.

For us, we do it as a combination of a hop/drop and a stomp so that the body becomes unweighted and the impact of the "stomp" propels the body and strike forward in a sharp explosive manner. I use this footwork frequently.

N.

Nice description!

b.t

mantis108

07-03-2003, 04:18 PM

Thanks -N-. for the input. It is din bo. I agreed totally and thanks for sharing the insight.

Warm regards

Mantis108

-N-

07-03-2003, 04:26 PM

Brendan, Robert,

Thanks for comments.

I wish someone explained din bo to me like that when I was learning. Though maybe it wouldn't have helped anyway. My instructions had been, "Do like this. Why can't you do it?!" :)

As it was, it probably took me 3 years to figure out how it was supposed to work. Then more time after that to be able to do it.

Norman.

B.Tunks

07-03-2003, 07:55 PM

Oh, thats you Norman! G'day.

On the following:

My instructions had been, "Do like this. Why can't you do it?!" :)

Thats the way it was for me too.
Thank god for the old school, ha ha.

Good to hear from you,
b.t

-N-

07-03-2003, 10:00 PM

B.T.,

Yep, me here. I don't post very often, but I read the forum regularly. I've been appreciating your posts and the posts from the rest of the mantis community. Thanks.

N.

Tainan Mantis

07-03-2003, 11:53 PM

Thanks all for the comments.

My question has to do with why the term fanche comes up in this sonnet.

According to WHF this technique was called Beng Bu and he is the one who changed the name to Fanche.

Another manuscript, I think I got it from Carl Albright's web page, lists this move as Shoot to Sky Catapult(chong tien pao).
(I thought catapult describes the action better than cannon.)

So, if it is WHF who changed the name of the technique from Beng Bu to Fanche, then I would think that Fan Hsudong wouldn't have used the term fanche for this sonnet.

Still hoping that this sonnet was really written by Fan(I can hope can't I) is there any explanation why he used the term fanche?

Tainan Mantis

07-04-2003, 12:05 AM

bungda07,
Why do you call this move small fanche?
Neither forms small or large fanche have this technique.

The old manuscripts from before Luo's time clearly describe the meaning of fanche. It is without a doubt the technique tha appears in the form Hsiaoand Da Fanche.

Also, this type of motion is common to many types of PM.

While the technique depicted here is unique to 7*(to my knowledge).

That is if you do the move as an inverted straight punch.

Very similar technique, but done more as a backfist, but with different names appears in other PM styles.

Mantis 108,
Thanks for the help on the translation.
I know it is unlikely that this sonnet was written by Fan but I want to explore the topic further.

Good point on the word rely.
Togetherness, it is so big, any other choices?

About the fourth line, it is just using different language to describe the concept of stealing.
These 4 characters are tough to translate.

About your stomping hop.
I felt that a catapult does a good job of describing how I shoot off the power.

-N-,
Very good description on your part.
Do you have an alternate name for this move?

webbb82

07-04-2003, 02:03 AM

Hi all,

Kevin, this is my attempt when I first translated it from Su's book which contains the same gejue.

Here is the pinyin, for those interested:
Fan che tang lang liang xiang yi,
Yuan gong jin da you chen yi,
Mai bu kua hu shi ben teng,
Lian xiao hua da geng ke shi.

My translation was very similar to yours:
Turning a waterwheel and praying mantis both rely on each other,
Particularly when attacking from a distance and striking when close,
The step of straddling a tiger is a powerful gallop,
The linking and disappearing transforming attack is again most dependable.
I will now go back over the translation, as I'm not happy with the fourth line. This Bufa is what I call Bengbu.
J.

webbb82

07-04-2003, 03:16 AM

Hi Tainan,

Here there is two movements with the same name (fanche), like you have described the original as from the form Fanche - Da fanche, Xiao Fanche etc. As (I presume) most Hong Kong practitioners call both movements Fanche so a way of dividing them is necessary. For example the original technique is called Da Fanche, whilst the other posture (in Dengshan, Qixing, Kuahu or xubu) is referred to as just Fanche or sometimes Xiao Fanche.

J.

B.Tunks

07-04-2003, 08:17 AM

In my experience it's (the step) common name is Beng Bu. I know both ways of striking Tainan mentioned in this part of the form.
To me its not Fanche by the common definition of Fanche, though the term is not so easily defined and obviously means different things to different practitioners.

b.t

mantis108

07-04-2003, 04:59 PM

Hi Norman,

Nice to meet you and thanks for the insight. :) I hear you on the old way of instructions. I think the new generations are more fortunate.

Hi Tainan Mantis,

You are most welcome. I feel that the sonnet would most likely be put together by later generations. It could have been his oral transmission (he recited it?) recorded and "fine tuned" by others. However, I feel that there is such a "coincident" that the mentioning of Fanche & Tanglang are so much reminiscent of the material published in Tian Jian (sp?) City Guoshugwun's monthly publication (April 1934). The author of the article admitted that he learned PM when he was young. The information contained in the article might have been "edited" although based on Fuju's boxing mannul which seemed to be "widely" available at the time. Could the sonnet be somewhat under the "trendy" influences of the martial arts publications of that time?

<<<Good point on the word rely.
Togetherness, it is so big, any other choices?>>>

I can't think of one at this point.

<<<About the fourth line, it is just using different language to describe the concept of stealing.
These 4 characters are tough to translate.>>>

Stealing with footwork as well? Man, that's deep. :) I agreed the 4 characters are hard to translate.

<<<About your stomping hop.
I felt that a catapult does a good job of describing how I shoot off the power.>>>

I hear you and thanks for the tip.

BTW, I think WHF had the imagery of toppling a chariot in mind rather than the water wheels. I believe WHF was known to not follow conventions then. So...

Hi Webbb82,

I like your term powerful gallop. Thanks.

Warm regards

Mantis108

B.Tunks

07-04-2003, 06:10 PM

yes I agree about overturning or toppling chariot or cart as the translation of fan che, besides thats what the Tanglang wants to do in the old proverb.

b.t

Tainan Mantis

07-05-2003, 05:42 AM

Webbb,
I can't agree with waterwheel.
Maybe in Shandong a waterwheel is called fanche but as you can see it doesn't fit in the following descriptions.

Here is the quote mentioned in another manuscript that Mantis108 also mentions coming from 1934. Although the original date is much older, how old no one seems to be able to prove.

"As for the word che, it is a cart's wheel turning.
As for the word lulu it is like a capstan/windlass (a boating term) flowing endlessly.
If we say both che and lulu then one hand is lu and two hands make it complete as a wheel.

Che and lulu also add the character which means to turn-fan.
To endlessly turn this way and return that way..."

So in Luo's picture the term "Fanche Posture" is used which is an accurate description since it doesn't negate the fact that fanche means "to endlessly turn"

But was this term "Fanche Posture" used by Luo's shrfu Fan Hsudong?
Or was it even used by Luo himself?

Later I'll put up WHF's comments on Fanche.
In WHF's comments as well as the above quote fanche seems to have one meaning which doesn't relate to the application in this "Fanche Posture."

Hua Lin Laoshi

07-05-2003, 09:15 AM

Tainan Mantis,
This thread is intriguing. I don't read Chinese or have access to information you and others here have but I do have a suggestion for the line "Fanche and Mantis rely upon each other,". How about 'compliment'? The sum of the two being greater than the individual parts.

Is the picture intending to depict a backfist (gwa choy) strike or uppercut (chow choy)?

There is a section in WL Say Lok that, in my interpretation, is similar to the photo and matches the description "To endlessly turn this way and return that way..." and "to endlessly turn". The move alternates left right moving forward and attacking although the stance is different.

webbb82

07-05-2003, 12:54 PM

Hi all,

Yes! My mistake - Turning a waterwheel is what I use for the more 'original' move i.e, as found in Fanche the form. As for Huang's Fanche or Xiao Fanche. I agree with the term overturning the chariot etc. One reason is due to the application of the move as a throw (turn them over).

Interesting that you bring up Wang Yifu's manuscript. I think its form number 4 called 'jiuzhuan shiba die' (Nine turns eighteen falls).
Tainan - did you find anything out about this form? Do you know its an old mainland Qixing set?
BT - You heard of this one?

J.

Tainan Mantis

07-05-2003, 10:40 PM

Hua Lin,
Thanks for the tip.
The word compliment might be better than rely.
Mantis 108 what do you think?

The picture depicts an inverted straight punch.
Somewheat like an uppercut, somewhat like an upsidedown straight punch.
Maybe in the middle of those two somewhere.
You are talking about WL 4th road?
I didn't learn that one.
But the fanche move is common in WL.
I think the first intro to this move is in straight form.

webbb82,
About the waterwheel definition.
I have only heard that from Paul Lin and Ilya Profatilov.
But, I don't see how that definiton fits in here or anywhere.

Ilya has another form called Zhong Lu Fanche which is somewhat different, but still contains the characteristic fanche move that is seen in Hsiao Fanche.

About 9 Turns and 18 Falls.
Brendan said he would try and dig up some info.
It is also listed in other manuscripts that list names of forms and styles.
So it is a form that can be verified at the end of the Ming or early Ching.

I don't know if it even exists anymore though.
Do you have any news?

Tainan Mantis

07-05-2003, 11:01 PM

In one of WHF's most interesting chapters he goes into great detail on the first 5 techniques used in sanshou.
He also explains how he goes from 5 techniques to 25 techniques to 125 techniques.
This is based on different combinations.

Among those first 5 important techniques is fanche lulu.

This is what he has to say...

"The Fifth Type:
Fanche lulu fist uses hard(ying) force to defeat hard force and is a purely unyielding(gang) technique.

Also, when tightly and completely surrounded it is an ingenious technique for breaking through the enemy's encirclement.

However, if your bridge is not strong then not only can it not smash through the incoming hand, but the incoming hand can attack and enter.

Two hands make a fist to smash toward the front and return continuously without break.
When this fist goes that one returns and when this fist rises that one descends.
It must smash the incoming hand.
It is like the wheels of a cart whose motion is a non stop turning.

The single hand is lulu.
It comes from above and kills in descent then whips up from below, revolving round and round without end.
Fanche and lulu are both defensive and offensive purely unyielding(gang) hand methods.

If you are skilled in its' application then there will be no strength that can't be destroyed and no enemy that can't be defeated."

On a related note-Wei Hsiaotang of 8 Step Mantis had a very similar thing to say about the first 5 techniqes method of training.
But Wei's first 5 techniques are different.

ninjaboy

07-06-2003, 12:09 AM

sorry guys, a quick interjection...

what is 'lulu'?

neil

Crushing Step

07-06-2003, 05:25 AM

Would you consider the right arm a "kwa" (upper block)?

The way I was taught this move was first with the stomping / catapulting step, with the "block and uppercut" coming in a half beat later. The difference from the picture is my right hand is open, somewhat like a tiger claw.

It is an interesting transition, rolling off the straight punch from the previous move.

Mr.Binx

07-06-2003, 05:43 AM

Edit: the fanche lulu topic has digressed to this thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23653) by Mantis108, so as to not interfere with the original subject matter of this thread. :D

Young Mantis

07-06-2003, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Webbb,
I can't agree with waterwheel.
Maybe in Shandong a waterwheel is called fanche but as you can see it doesn't fit in the following descriptions.

Here is the quote mentioned in another manuscript that Mantis108 also mentions coming from 1934. Although the original date is much older, how old no one seems to be able to prove.

"As for the word che, it is a cart's wheel turning.
As for the word lulu it is like a capstan/windlass (a boating term) flowing endlessly.
If we say both che and lulu then one hand is lu and two hands make it complete as a wheel.

Che and lulu also add the character which means to turn-fan.
To endlessly turn this way and return that way..."

So in Luo's picture the term "Fanche Posture" is used which is an accurate description since it doesn't negate the fact that fanche means "to endlessly turn"

But was this term "Fanche Posture" used by Luo's shrfu Fan Hsudong?
Or was it even used by Luo himself?

Later I'll put up WHF's comments on Fanche.
In WHF's comments as well as the above quote fanche seems to have one meaning which doesn't relate to the application in this "Fanche Posture."

In my school, we have always used the translation of "Windmill" for FanChe. Whether it be windmill, waterwheel, or cartwheel, I think the imagery is the same: a round wheel turning. The arms should be straight to get maximum reach and spinning fast and hard to overcome your opponent.

As for the FanChe movement in Bung Bo, we also refer to it as "Siu Fan Che" or small windmill. As many others have stated, the imagery is of overturning the chariot. This is because both arms are raising up in a hard and quick fashion as if you were trying to overturn something. This move is also seen in the form "Siu Fan Che" although done in a horse stance. Also, it is interesting to note that WHF does disitinguish this Siu FanChe movement from the other by using a different character for "Fan". The "Fan" character in Bung Bo's "FanChe" movement translates as flip. So although WHF writes extensively about FanChe, it is different than the one found in Bung Bo.

As for the relation of FanChe and Praying Mantis, WHF writes also many times"
1. Fan che yuen yi tong long kan
2. Fan che chook yi tong long mut

1. The FanChe technique is used when there is a distance. It is long range and I use it to approach my opponent and break down their defenses. But once I am close, I use Praying Mantis close-range fighting.

2. Fan Che must be done fast without hesitation. Praying mantis must be done tight and the techniques should come one right after the other.

YM

Young Mantis

07-06-2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by bungda07
Young Mantis, excellent post. Also WHF Lineage. We also use the term small windmill, (Circular) for the posted picture from Tinian. Had a brain **** trying to remembering the term Sui Fan Che. Sorry Tinian, couldn't remeber the term. We also refer to Siu Fan Che when performing Chop Choy set, Second line. IE: (1.Sui Fan Che, 2.Huen Cho, Grab Pek Choi, Heart stealing Punch). Again, thanks for the valuable info. "I think the great masters would be smiling that their efforts and writings are still be studied.

Steve M.

Bungda07,

Thanks. Always glad to hear from other WHF lineage people.

I have to comment though that the move you are describing from Chop Choy, the first move of the second route, we call it "Sup Ji Choy". Literally, it would translate as "#10 character fist" although we translate it as double hammerfist strike. We have never used sup ji choy and siu fan che interchangably. In our school, they are two different techniques.

YM

bungda07

07-06-2003, 11:34 PM

Young Mantis you are correct. Looking through my notes. Had Sup Ji Choy(Note: Chop Choy) on same page as Dai Fan Che techniques and other info. Thanks. I need to copy all my notes again (neatly).

Steve M.

webbb82

07-11-2003, 01:40 AM

Hi all,

This form jiuzhuan shiba die was mentioned as an old Qixing form when talking to one PM teacher, he did not know this set but has studied Qixing for over 35 years.
Secondly (and perhaps a more unreliable source) is a book entitled 'Tanglang quan' which lists some Qixing sets: Tantui, chachui, Fanche, Bengbu, lanjie, Zhaikui, Zhaiyao, Jiuzhuan shiba die, Baiyuan chudong, Baiyuan toutao etc.

So yes, somemore research into this would be interesting.

J

mantisben

07-11-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Young Mantis
I have to comment though that the move you are describing from Chop Choy, the first move of the second route, we call it "Sup Ji Choy". Literally, it would translate as "#10 character fist" although we translate it as double hammerfist strike. We have never used sup ji choy and siu fan che interchangably. In our school, they are two different techniques.

YM

YM,

Is the last movement of the first "Road" of Chop Choy, Siu Fan Che? You know, the left upper-cut in the left Hill-Climbing stance, after the Ou Lou Tsai?

Young Mantis

07-12-2003, 01:35 AM

Is the last movement of the first "Road" of Chop Choy, Siu Fan Che? You know, the left upper-cut in the left Hill-Climbing stance, after the Ou Lou Tsai?

MantisBen,

Yes, this uppercut is referred to as Siu Fan Che although we often just say Fan Che for short. It is understood in our school that there are two different techniques that share the Fan Che terminology and although they can be differentiated as Dai Fan Che and Siu Fan Che, we more commonly abbreviate either to just Fan Che.

YM

Tainan Mantis

07-12-2003, 11:47 PM

Young Mantis,
How far back do you think small and large have been used to differentiate between two different techniques named fanche?

For example; was it used by WHF and/or his shrfu?

Young Mantis

07-13-2003, 07:22 AM

Tainan Mantis,

I was wondering when you were going to return to this discussion. :)

I would not say I am much of a Mantis historian, especially in the presence of many on this forum who have done so much more than I. Therefore, I cannot honestly answer your question with any real conviction. The only reference I have is the sonnet itself that accompanies the form, printed by WHF in his Bung Bo book, attributed to Fahn Yook Tung, and the very couplets that you started this thread with.

Your original question: "why the term Fanche shows up in this couplet?" Did FYT actually use this term for this technique or was it a WHF addition? I think we would need to poll other LGY and FYT lineage descendants to know.

Indeed, posture 13 was originally referred to as "Bung Bo" but I was told that "Bung Bo" only referenced the footwork of this technique. That "bung bo" described the footwork and "fan che" refers to the upper body or handwork.

YM

Tainan Mantis

07-15-2003, 11:06 PM

Young Mantis,
Thank you for your answer. Not all versions have this move in thier Beng Bu form so I can not even say if it is part of the original.
The history of the name of this move also perplexed my shrfu.

He noted that while the WHF explanation seems totally valid it doesn't help in explaining Beng Bu of other lineages.

I certainly would like to hear the explanations given by other PM branches.

To me the question is important as it may help to tie PM to the oldest verifiable manuscripts from Shaolin empty hand fighting.

Later, after I have polished off my translations from that book Chuen Jing -Chuen Fa Bei Yao, I will make some postings to ask others opinions.