oops- continuation of boxing thread

[yuanfen]

Black jack- you partially misrepresent my position but it happens.
You say
For a person seeking effective self defense, basic boxing and wrestling skills IMO are more practical and useful in modern America than the training recieved in any number of asain ma styles which claim to prepare their practitioners for combat.

My response---I am not unfamilar with western arts. insufficient or bad exposure to asian martial arts
is worse than good boxing and wrestling skills.
I wish fewer people did chop suey kung fu- even though they may get belts, sashes or certifcates for it.

Sporting events are just that- they have rules. And there are differences in the rules and the wise competitor works on internalising the rules. Real duels are gainst the law in the USA.
And fight clubs dont do it.

Yes I am a wing chun purist- this is a wing chun list isnt it?
I would be outta here if it was listed as MMA.

[Black Jack]

Maybe I did misrepresent but so did you when you just put my remark down but did not continue with how I said all arts have something good to offer.

I just don't want to come out one-sided. Even more so when I am NOT a MMA guy. I just want to defend what you stated about boxing which I found to be a tad one-sided.

I have been around the block a bit but my current training background is stripped down estokada arnis/jujitsu-ww2 close combat pov- and for the last three months Malay Silat.

btw- of course boxing has rules. IMO those rules do not discredit it in any form when used on the street. People do not often stick to rules.

Cheers

[rogue]

For a person seeking effective self defense, basic boxing and wrestling skills IMO are more practical and usefull in modern America than the training recieved in any number of asain ma styles which claim to prepare their practitioners for combat. Not so sure I agree with that as much as I used to BJ. There is very little practical self defense at all in boxing, there are some practical assault tactics in it though. I've been watching a lot of semi-pro boxing and common strategiess eeem to be are exchange blows with the harder puncher winning, one fighter getting in a lucky shot and winning, or just absorb as many hits on your gloves and arms and counter when the other guy is tired(Holmes/Ali). That has very little to do with wanting to defend myself. Wrestling rarely addresses finishing an opponent(ex. Dan Sevrin vs Royce) and some of the throws could be harmful to the thrower as they are to the throwee(suplex anyone?). Both need many adjustments to make them really street worthy arts.
I will agree that very few Asian MA prepare their practitioners for combat, but then very few people need to train for all out combat. But then many asian arts do work on toughening the hands for use without gloves.

The reason is simple.....boxing works.....it works in the ring and it works in the street. Kind of sort of. Friend of mine competed in Golden Gloves, got ranked #3 light weight I think. Worked for ConEd and would get into street fights whenever someone tried to steal equipent or rob them. He fought differently than he did in the ring, all body shots and low blows and never went for the head. He used to beat up a lot of karate guys too back in the day. :)

Most ma styles that use the word combat seem to have a pronounced tendency to emphasize the art instead of the martial. I agree but I think that has more to do with people selling a certain fantasy and people buying into that fantasy than what any style is really about. Very few people will ever engage in a street fight much less actual combat.

[Black Jack]

Not so sure I agree with that as much as I used to BJ. There is very little practical self defense at all in boxing, there are some practical assault tactics in it though.

Rogue- Good paragraph but that same paragraph can be used for all traditional martial arts in terms of modern situational self defense. Let me say two points.

1.) With boxing it is more indepth though than just great assualt tactics. It is the basic principles of momentum and conditioning that boxing imparts to its students which IMO are some of its greatest gifts besides its incredible striking skills and combinations.

From a defensive side it has the skills of great footwork, slipping, ducking, evasion, sliding, directing, jamming and blocking. It is this great footwork which is also the key to its powerfull punches and momentum.

A well-trained boxer knows how to combine this forward drive with his strikes so that the two tactics complement each other. It teaches its students how to put some SERIOUS weight into their punches with the intention of knockout power. Take a look at the power of boxing style punches and compare it to the powder puff punching you see in many local martial art clubs where the importance of controlled aggression and momentum are not stressed.

2.) Their is a difference between street grappling and street boxing than those used in the ring or on the mat. A boxer who uses his system for self survival understands that streetfights don't have rules. The old school fighters knew all the punches, combinations, slips and footwork but they also knew all the foul blows not allowed in the ring as well as modifications to certain aspects of their fighting methods.

Remeber in the begining bare knuckle boxing and wrestling were intertwined. It was "all-infighting" or "rough and tumble fighting".

Boxers also fought outlaw matches in the great depression and used these skills to bring food to the table. Some of the interesting modifications you saw in this early 20th century matches were the guillotine punch (forearm blow) and the ax punch (hooking hammerfist-kinda like the Mendoza chopper).

My grandfather rest in peace was a high ranking Navy Officer and also boxed during his time in the serivce and I fondly remeber him showing me for the first time what a "rabbit punch" was and later what he called a "elbow hook".

The same goes for street grappling. Most of the "western" holds you see in mcdojo practice were not really intended to be used that way. A headlock is really a nasty tool that was not intended to just hold some dude in place unless you were going to shiv him to death. A real headlock renders you punchdrunk and is used to slam you headfirst into the ground or into a wall. In the bareknuckle era they called this a cross-buttock throw.

But today when someone defends against a headlock the uke is just sitting their holding the guys head. I believe a lot of those common holds are some of the more nasty things around when applied with the right mindset.

I think I have begain to wander. Sorry its just that I really like the subject.

[yuanfen]

Yes Blackjack- boxing and wrestling has lots of goodies for the street and street oriented boxers old timers and contemporaries know them-knew them. I know, I know.

But you keep missing the point- there are many approaches to so called fighting- not one single approach. And some who know
about the above- nevertheless chose wing chun. I dont see you and some others actually discussing the details of wing chun-
so the discussion stays stuck ata very elementary wing chun level.


Wing Chun has its own formulations as well. So-----
there is nothing wrong in following the wing chun path.

But since you really dont appear to do much wing chun (willing to be corrected)- I can understand your perspective- though I dont share it.

[KPM]

Just a note on this thread. If you guys are interested in seeing some western boxing that has been seriously modified for street use check out Panantukan. I studied it for awhile.....but still came back to Wing Chun. :-)


Keith

[captain]

when you look at judo/bjj,do you ever feel that wing chun
is slightly flimsy looking/feeling?certainly not in the punching
sid of things,but overall?i do.

Russ.

[yuanfen]

Captain- the answer from this end is no.
But of course there are many opinions.

[Merryprankster]

Age old argument--wrestling and boxing have rules. So what? FWIW, I agree that a "straight" wrestler/boxer will have lousy kick defense, and may have lousy submission defense, but a "straight" WCer is likely to have lousy groundfighting, from my point of view, so what does it matter?

Boxing and wrestling have rules. So does your kwoon, dojo or training gym. You want a no rules fight, go to your local tough bar or neighborhood and say something stupid to the wrong guy.

Boxing and wrestling have rules--yet, I don't see you gouging eyes, kicking groins at full speed or hyperextending knees. Oh yes, you have rules.

The issue, as always, remains "which set of rules is a better way to teach people the art, for fighting and continued research." And I think the answer remains, a mix of both. You've gotta beat each other up, and you've got to make sure that simulated tactics that could result in serious injury are included in your training.

Finally, those fouling tactics are alive and well in wrestling. Judo too. Didn't box enough to find the rest out :D

Yuan... WC list you say? Gee, I was under the impression this was also a public forum. Guess I was mistaken. Talk to your moderator, something's clearly wrong!

[rogue]

Great points on rules MP. It's common for certain black belts to get an additional belt, in the chops, from some color belts who're not as good at sparring with the dojangs rules.:D


The issue, as always, remains "which set of rules is a better way to teach people the art, for fighting and continued research." And I think the answer remains, a mix of both. Bingo!

BJ, I won't disagree with you on the old style boxing, I was referring to the modern day version that I've seen lately. But there has to be something to sporting styles that can be as effective if not more effective than more comprehensive arts like WC and karate.:)

[yuanfen]

MP sez:Yuan... WC list you say? Gee, I was under the impression this was also a public forum. Guess I was mistaken. Talk to your moderator, something's clearly wrong!
-------------------------------------------------------
MP- I am genuinely disappointed- I thought that you read more carefully. The subject matter of the forum or focus is wing chun related. It does not mean- nor did I remotely infer or imply that it is a closed list.

[Black Jack]

Yuanfen-

You are right, I am not talking from a wing chun prespective, I do not engage in wing chun training, I put down what some of my background is in. I am though speaking about this from a general perspective that all fights follow through with and on a second level "just" in simple defence of boxing.

Just to add something, IMO the importance of boxing, wrestling, judo, muay thai, and other combative sports is not just in its extreme offensive skills but also in the fact that any man regardless of size or physique once well trained in his technquie has a "supreme confidence" in himself and in his fighting abilities because he tests them under pressure.

That is why I am a big believer in sparring in traditional ma training.

[Merryprankster]

Yuan,

just calls em as I sees em. To me, there was the not so subtle hint of "this is a WC forum, why are you here?" Perhaps I jumped the gun. Perhaps not.

Not a big fan of that.

[yuanfen]

Black Jack-- a "general perspective" on fighting?
I dont know what you mean.

Also -, there are wing chun folks for whom confidence is not a pronlem.

So- I dont know what your last post was about except-"spar"...
ehich we have gone over quite a few times.

[yuanfen]

Black Jack-- a "general perspective" on fighting?
I dont know what you mean.

Also -, there are wing chun folks for whom confidence is not a pronlem.

So- I dont know what your last post was about except-"spar"...
ehich we have gone over quite a few times.