Shuul's Technique Topic #2

[Shuul Vis]

The last topic was a great success and never once diverged from kung fu. Awesome guys! This topic covers not a single technique but a method of delivering certain strikes. Again tell us your opinions on the method's strengths, weaknesses and over all general use in YOUR style. Also state whether is is a method you use and why and how you use it.


Technique #2: Spinning Attacks (Spinning Backfist, Back Kick, ect.)
A method of delivering an attack in which you spin your body before the strike. Can be done with both hand or foot strikes, the most common being the spinning backfist or elbow, spinning back kick, and the spinning crescent or hook kick.


My Opinion: This is a method of striking i rarely use and only in specific situations. Why spin to deliver a strike? Is there ever a need to? First of all, ill give my thoughts on its weaknesses. The glaring problem is you turn your back to the opponent and, even if you do it perfectly, you lose sight of him for an instant. In most styles, you are supposed to turn and look before you strike rather than spin and flail your limbs hoping to hit something. But even then you lose sight for a moment.

So why do a spinning technique at all? For me, only 3 reasons and one of them isnt really worth the risk. Thats what this method of striking is about anyway, RISK vs REWARD. Why risk exposing your back? Generally if done well spinning can dramatically increase the speed and power of the attack. But so can other things that dont involve turning around. Another reason is that they are tricky. If you are skilled with them, they can be excellent follow-ups to a feint. And lastly, the main reason that i end up using them, is when i am placed at an angle to the opponent yet have too much forward momentum and the spinning attack offers a strong offense while i regain my posture. I still rarely use them, and if i do, its a very strong back kick or back fist. I dont do spinning crescents and all that.

[red5angel]

mmmm spinning backfist. It works surprisingly well for me and I like the power you can get from it.

[chen zhen]

I can imagine some spinning footwork could be used, where the opponent attacks and then you sidestep and do a quick spinning step so that you end up facing your opponents back. Used by crane & monkey styles, i think (not sure)

But spinning kicks/strikes, never. I would not use them.

[Chang Style Novice]

The spinning attacks I like are where you grab the guy, step between his feet, and spin while lifting up one of his legs with yours.

But that's not what shuul's talking about at all.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

shuul pretty much covered everything i think about the attacks themselves. it's risk vs. reward. i dont think they're the most practical attacks but then again when i hit the bag or the pads i start wondering cause they sure are fu cking nasty.

shuul did remind me of another side topic on this issue though. i made a thread about it years ago, but since we have never had a topic rehashed before i figure it was about time.




In most styles, you are supposed to turn and look before you strike rather than spin and flail your limbs hoping to hit something.

there is good reasoning in this, but at our school we are taught not to turn our head first. later on you can if you want but he'll be on your ass initially. my sifu's reasoning is that its easier to get your body moving as a unit without turning the head first. you get a little more power and possibly a little more speed as its easier to do smoothly. instead of turning your head you pick your target and visualize it as you turn. this also gets you used to striking targets you cant see. it's wierd at first but takes minimal training to get used to it. after you show competance in doing it this way he'll no longer correct you for turning your head before the body, but a lot of us just got used to it and keep turning everything at once.

[Shuul Vis]

Can anyone tell us about some experiences when either you or your opponent used spinning attacks? What happened?

[rubthebuddha]

it's only "worked" against me when i was off balance, but my opponent had to be in close to upset my balance, so a spinning technique served little purpose. every other time, it was at a distance, and as soon as i saw a back turning my way, it was lunchtime. i have a hard time thinking of spinning attacks working anywhere outside of tekken.

[Fred Sanford]

I've used it before when sparring. When I would get turned around with my back to my opponent, I'd instantly try whipping around with a backfist. sometimes I'd connect sometimes I'd miss completely but it would get me facing in the right direction again.

[Waidan]

We use a lot of turning/twisting (not really a "spin") strikes in bagua. A lot of the reasoning is power generation and directional change (for confusing defenses or possibly attacking a different opponent).

I can't argue with the force generated...coiling up and releasing horizontal strikes in this fashion has great results for me. However, I think it takes an advanced understanding (or possibly instinct) to get the spacing and timing of the footwork just right to maximize the damage while limiting your exposure. My teacher has caught me in the back of the head many times while sparring.

The times it has been most effective for me in sparring are either when I'm already at grappling range (the turn allows more space to build power for the strike), or as a reaction to an aggressive move on the part of my opponent. A good example would be parrying and turning away from a punch, carrying through the turn to deliver a strike to the opponent's exposed side.

The nastiest I've ever been caught by a spinning technique was from a San Soo student. He turned and delivered a line drive sidekick right to my ribs...I was very surprised because the turning step closed distance between us and the kicking foot shot out with a lot of speed and force. Totally sucked ;)

[Chang Style Novice]

that jumping turning back/side kick has always looked really difficult and open for an intercepting attack to me (and it doesn't exist in any style I've tried, so I'm only going by looks) but I know it was Benny the Jet's bread-n-buttah, so it must have something going for it.

[Waidan]

Hmm. I keep the jumping out of the equasion entirely. I've never seen a "jumping spinning" anything land in a real fight. Worse still, my brother tried that nonsense on me once and landed funny, twisting his ankle and falling on his arse. Not that my brother is the most graceful of cats, but the episode served to illustrate just how wrong a maneuver like that can go.

[chen zhen]

I can pull of a spinning sidekick, but there's really not much else in it which could'nt be done with a normal sidekick.
So= worthless.

[joedoe]

Like someone said, it is a good 'desperation' move if your opponent has somehow exposed your back. It can give you a good attacking option, or just enough room to get yourself turned around to face them again.

[FatherDog]

I would never initiate a spinning move from a neutral position, but there are many situations where an action from the opponent might turn you away from him. In this sort of case, instead of trying to halt your turning momentum and then turn back to face him, it might be better to continue the turn into a spinning attack (backfist, for instance). Probably faster than the alternative, and even if you miss you've returned yourself to a neutral position.

[SevenStar]

FD stole my post. A good instance to use spinning tactics is flow. to turn your body back the other way would slow you down. Good example is a thai roundhouse kick. If it misses, your body is turned, as it's not a snapping kick. A typical recovery for me from that position is to continue my spin and raise my opposite knee to block as I do so, because a kick is likely coming. I may also use a spinning backfist there. Training in a korean style at an early age gave me an affinity for spinning kicks, and to this day, I still like the spinning hook kick. I don't do them nearly as much anymore, but have had success with them while sparring - matter of factly, I broke someone's nose with one once. In the ring, I've had success with a spinning side kick.

[Oso]

I can land a decent spin back kick but it's more about positioning than anything else for me. i've said before that my kicks are the 'humpty dance' of the ma world but if I can get the weapon to the target then I'm happy.

oh, and I am really only competent with my left spin kick, I can't land one with my right to save my ass.

on a side note, sparred a pro-boxer tonight...interesting and faaaast. he's a mexican guy who just got his US license. not sure how good that makes him. he popped me several times.

[rogue]

Spinning to the guys outside and a back elbow can work. Spinning back kick is sometimes used as a counter after leaning away from a strike. Sometimes a spin technique while in close is a great way to deliver something unexpected. My sensei is always lightly tagging me with spinning hooks to my kidneys.








i've said before that my kicks are the 'humpty dance' of the ma world

You know he's right I've seen it.
First he limp to the side like his leg was broken
Shakin' and twitchin' kinda like he was smokin'
Crazy wack funky
People say ya look like M.C. Hammer on crack, Oso
That's all right 'cause his body's in motion
It's supposed to look like a fit or a convulsion.
It was weird but effective. Now he'll kick my butt this weekend.:eek:

[Oso]

RAOFL.

I am limpin' fo sheezy at the moment, tonight's practice must have been harder than I thunk.


time for aspirin, gin and bed.

[Becca]

:cool:

Any who. Have trained them in both my MA styles, but for diferent reasons and diferent goals/outcomes. Never have used them, even in sparring. Don't see the point. They don't offer anything I can't get with a less-risky move.



Ninjitsu Kai's meathod:

you use the force of your opponant's strike to fuel your spin, then nail them with a side hammer strike.

White Dragon Fist's meathod:

inner cresant kick, spin into outer cresant kick, then spin into a jump inner cresant kick. Opponant will likely look for an outer jump cresant kick at this point, so you sweep them.