Want to participate in Empty Force test?

[Frank Exchange]

As some of you may know, James Randi is the magician and arch-skeptic who debunks paranormal claims, and has a standing 1 million dollar prize for anyone who can show a paranormal ability under controlled conditions.

His latest claimants are a Martial Arts club based in Indonesia, and he is looking for volunteers to help out with the testing.

>> Volunteers needed! After months of back-and-forth, the "Yellow Bamboo" martial arts group has finally agreed to a protocol for a preliminary test re the JREF million-dollar prize. We're now looking for someone in their area to supervise that test. It would take place in Indonesia.

They prefer Singaraja, Bali, but any nearby location should be suitable. They're suggesting 14 July, or if that's not suitable, in the middle of August. Anyone who participates has to join their organization — don't ask me why — but there are no fees or human sacrifices involved.

At least theoretically, the process would be simple. They claim that the "attacker" we choose has to go up to their guy and simply tap him with a bamboo wand, but that he will use his magical powers to knock down the attacker from a distance, without touching him/her.

Anyone available....? <<

If anyone who reads this is in Bali (I wish I was!), and is interested, here is the site,

http://www.randi.org/jr/070403.html

and Randi's email is randi@randi.org.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I dunno how many times this has to be said, but Randi is just as bent as his subjects to be honest. Why on earth do people fall for Randi's quotes as being bible, the man's a complete loon. In fact most of the oddball, sthat come into contact with him ought to steer well clear just to keep their reputations intact.
I won't trust Randi as far as I could throw him. His test are bogus and so is his rationale.
If it's up against Randi and the oddballs....well....to be honest...they are both as bad as each other and I'd have no opinion to ne honest.

[Fred Sanford]

ah yes, empty force what a pile of total crap. I don't need a test to tell me that.

[Former castleva]

Ah,yes.

I remember reading about this "bamboo" challenge just yesterday,a member of the educational foundation being.

I would really like to hear why R.Monkey is so intolerant of Randi,or is it just skepticism of woo-woo in general?
All they have to do is obey a simple set of rules,and should they win...
Of course there are other organisations,like Australian skeptics which promises to pay at least a considerable amount of money to the chosen one´s.

I´m prepared to be surprised...

:cool:

[Repulsive Monkey]

The idea of testing something to see its effectiveness and integrity is fine, and I have no qualms about it. But please do not consider that the words validity and Randi ever go together.
I'm all for people making weird statements of fact and then being asked to back it up, as it it isn't its just chreap talk.
But please Randi is as cranky as the oddballs who try to go for the prize. In his eyes every single area which falls outside of wetsrn science in his eyes he has proved (again in his own mind!) to be false and bogus. Who in the hell is he to be grand universal indicator of the truth. Some of his tests set up are pretty good but a lot of them are so rigid that they are almost deigned to register a negative reaction before the test commence.

He sets the conditions (which is fair enough as its his money he puts up fron!) but think for a second that also = conclusiveness.
Maybe he had a bad childhood or something but in his mind this totally unscientific scientist feels its his mission to rule out everything but Western science. Maybe his parents let him skip one too many sunday schools and he got a taste for atheism, I don't know but Randi is one of the most illogical men around.

Why do people accept what he says as truth??? I don't know, I know in my life I've yet to uncover some of the big truths in life but I certainly as know he hasn't for sure!

[Former castleva]

"He sets the conditions (which is fair enough as its his money he puts up fron!) but think for a second that also = conclusiveness.
Maybe he had a bad childhood or something but in his mind this totally unscientific scientist feels its his mission to rule out everything but Western science. Maybe his parents let him skip one too many sunday schools and he got a taste for atheism, I don't know but Randi is one of the most illogical men around."

He is not a scientist as far as I know,but a magician.a
I do not get this "western science" definition either,and you´re not the first one to be seen using it.There are no geographical limits to it,I think this is a fallacy.
What he does is common to all skepticism,critically examine outrageous claims,supposed paranormal etc. which defies natural laws.
And what does his atheism have to do with it?
I´m not meaning to sound offensive but some of the claims you make are pretty strong,if possible,I´d like you to "expose" what you consider such a hoax other than attacking the person.
I would be thankful.

[No_Know]

It's not that for some if not many his say is the end all. When people wonder they tend to listen to those with experience in it testing-ish this stuff he looks vaid-ish it's science like and for the person in general that's good enough. A science person did some test on it and said there were negative results on the claim. With Science billed~ as an authority place one only need claim to represtnt Science~do something that can be phrase framed as test/experiment and a claim of the findings of the Result, referring to the test/experiment.

People do not necessarily want Truth. They want to be told Something so that they can form an opinion with/for/against.

I hope the skepticism works in the case of any such "bamboo" test. So that the money will be there when I put in my application and positively result my demonstrations. to the JREF.

[Frank Exchange]

RM,

>>He sets the conditions (which is fair enough as its his money he puts up fron!) but think for a second that also = conclusiveness. <<

From his site:

>> The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant.<<

>>Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. This is the primary and most important of these rules. <<

Randi himself does not usually set the conditions, he sometimes has a hand in the design stage of the experiment to ensure that no cheating is possible, but usually he enlists the help of universities or reputable scientists from the particular location where the test is to be held. Thus, when an Italian makes a claim, it is an Italian university or Italian based scientist that design and actually perform the tests. Mr. Randi is not usually present at the tests.

And, more importantly, as is shown above, the applicant is also involved in the design of the experiment, and must agree beforehand that it is a fair test of their abilities.

Fair enough, you dont like Randi. I personally find him a bit of a curmudgeonly old git, but he has the grace to admit when he is wrong on points of science, as he often does on his web newsletter, and he has often said, on tv and on his site, that he is prepared to be shown to be wrong on any matter of the paranormal.

How many paranormalists are prepared to admit that they may not have the abilities they claim to have?

Anyway, the point is, Randi does not carry out the tests, the applicant has to agree in advance what their abilities are, and what a positive demonstration entails, lawyers are present on both sides so everything is above board, and reputable local scientists actually perform the tests, so I fail to see what makes the tests cranky or bogus.

[Former castleva]

That should clear it up.

[TonyM.]

A suggestion. Get everyone together for the test and drop in a frag.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, the guy's dropping a cool mill? As in Ooonnee Miiiiiiilllllionnnnnn Dolllaaaaaarrrrrsssssss!!!!!!!! If he loses the bet right?

Right?? You think he can't find some behind the scenes way of ensuring his nest egg stays in HIS bank??

Come on, he has about a million more reasons to make sure an applicant fails, by whatever means than any of them do to succeed. After all, if you don't have a mill to begin with, you won't miss it if you fail to get it. But if you have it and lose it, that's darn right painfull.

[Frank Exchange]

It is not his money. It has been donated to the JREF, for a long time it was $10,000, then he got more donations. It is kept in negotiable bonds held in a special investment account, so it is not cash that he can actually use.

And again, you can say all you like that the process is flawed and he will cheat or put in conditions so that he cant lose, but the point is that it is a scientific experiment.

The applicant helps to design the experiment, agrees in advance that the test will be a proper test of their abilities, and the process is held in public, with the applicants own lawyers or notaries present, and the tests are double blind so that nobody, the testers or the testees can "cheat". That is the whole point of double blind experiments.

They never get beyond the first stage, because they cant do what they claim they can do.

[Brad]

They claim that the "attacker" we choose has to go up to their guy and simply tap him with a bamboo wand, but that he will use his magical powers to knock down the attacker from a distance, without touching him/her.
Whatever you might think of Randi, this particular test seems pretty simple, and the results wouldn't exactly be able to be faked on Randi's part(asuming it's video taped)... the volunteer will either be able to touch the guy with his stick or he will get knocked down. Results would be pretty obvious to anyone :D

[fidon]

It seems a bit too dodgy for me, ha magicians

[themeecer]

In some ways I love Randi and others I don't. I have one of his original posters of when he toured as a magician. I love the way he goes around debunking Uri Geller, a man that claims he can do miraculous things like bend spoons with his mind. (You know .. if I was going to have magical powers I would pick something more useful than bending silverware) I also like his bit on the fake faith healers and charismatics. Heck I am even in his same profession, magic. But I don't take everything he says hook, line, and sinker. For one, I am a Christian. Although I agree that the faith healers he exposed were in fact fake and needed to be brought down, I do believe in miraculous healing. I just think it is something done by God and not through the works of man like they tried to do. I also have degrees in science, but don't believe the so called "western" science has it all. For those of us that have felt the real flow of chi coursing through our bodies, there is no way we can be made to believe that it was only a hallucination or our imagination running wild. Do I believe that this empty force exists? Yes, I do. Do I believe these practitioners will stand up to the test? No, I feel that feats like this are very very rare and rarer still when used as a stunt or trying to prove something.

[MasterKiller]

For those of us that have felt the real flow of chi coursing through our bodies, there is no way we can be made to believe that it was only a hallucination or our imagination running wild. Just curious, How do you reconcile Chi and Christianity? Wouldn't most Christians equate feeling chi with demon possession? Or do you believe Chi is a manifestation of God's power?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm no Christian, but if qi is the animating force of our bodies (and most definitions seem to agree about that) wouldn't it be God's breath in Biblical terms?

edit -

Genesis 2:7, KJE

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

[MasterKiller]

But that doesn't mean you are allowed to use it. The God of Moses liked us dumb and naked.

[Chang Style Novice]

Whoah! That would make qigong original sin!

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Just curious, How do you reconcile Chi and Christianity? Wouldn't most Christians equate feeling chi with demon possession? Or do you believe Chi is a manifestation of God's power?

Good question, one I have had to answer for a few people. I have been around some that believe that anything they can't explain is evil. Be it chi, hypnosis, halloween, Ouija boards, etc. I don't believe chi is demon possesion. I do believe in such things as demons, they are angels that rebelled against God and were thrown out of heaven. To me chi is a "force." It isn't spiritual in nature, it is totally physical. I don't pray to anyone to develop my chi .. I do physical things ... ie. meditating, Hou Tien Chi, Shien Tien Chi. It is as physical as throwing a kick or breathing.

Do I believe chi is a manifestation of God's power? I believe it is a manifestation of something he has given all of us. Just the same as breathing and walking. Do I believe it is a manifestation of God's power as in parting the Red Sea, raising the dead ... no, I do not. These are "miricles" that he chooses to impart to us at specific times of his choosing. We cannot tap into this "power" at our own choosings, whenever we want. That is the problem I have with these "faith" healers. They give lip service to God, meaning they say the power to do so is from him ... but in their practice it is evident they are getting the glory for themselves and feel that they can heal anytime they choose to.

[MasterKiller]

Whoah! That would make qigong original sin! Becoming self-aware has to be the original sin, as only a self-aware person can be held responsible for their actions. And only a self-aware being could practice Qigong.


I do physical things ... ie. meditatingI would argue that meditation is spiritual practice.

[Chang Style Novice]

Adam was framed - and then tried to pin it on Eve.

If you are foolish enough believe that such an obviously metaphorical story is the literal truth, anyway.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Adam was framed - and then tried to pin it on Eve.


Funny. Actually, Adam was standing near when Eve ate from the tree. Reread the scripture and you will see. It was his place to have stopped her from eating from it. So his sin was allowing Eve to eat and then later eating from the tree as well. Great book on the subject out there called Adam's Silence.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, exactly like that.:rolleyes:

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I would argue that meditation is spiritual practice.

Some people would. But for me .. I can do nothing on my own spiritually. I don't believe in a works based faith. No matter how hard I work I cannot "further myself spiritually." It is all given to me by grace. For something to be spiritual for me it has to involve God. I can not do anything "spiritual" on my own.

[Chang Style Novice]

Rereading the third chapter of Genesis does nothing to convince me that Eve was anywhere near Adam when the serpent tempted her, btw.

[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

See? Adam isn't mentioned until after she eats of the fruit, suggesting she went to him after averything else occurred.

edit -

I can't believe I'm debating the course of events in a FABLE!

[norther practitioner]

Try holding mabu for half an hour, it can be spiritual. I don't know about your beliefs, and don't want to get into them, but I know I can feel "spiritual" in a sense doing certain activities.... but thats just me

[MasterKiller]

See? Adam isn't mentioned until after she eats of the fruit, suggesting she went to him after everything else occurred. It doesn't say he was standing next to her, but it also doesn't say he wasn't, either.

Either way, the gist of the story is that God liked us as dumb beasts, and when we became self-aware, we fell out of his favor. What benevolence!

[[Censored]]

If you have superpowers, one million dollars is chump change. You can just find a rich person, and suggest they give it to you. No need to jump through any hoops. ;)

Some have asked for proof that Randi is actually prepared and able to disperse anything. His only response, as far as I have heard, is that he will provide verifiable details "when the time comes".

I wonder how many millions Randi would make, as the man who "discovered" kung-fu? This topic has already been kicked around on RMA (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=randi+ordosclan&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=c2876962.0306280508.36b940f3%40posting.google .com&rnum=1) .

[themeecer]

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Notice the part about giving to her husband with her. He was with her when she ate.


I can't believe I'm debating the course of events in a FABLE!

Believe what you want ... it will all be evident in the end.;)

[themeecer]

Either way, the gist of the story is that God liked us as dumb beasts, and when we became self-aware, we fell out of his favor. What benevolence!

Actually he wanted to give us free choice and by placing the tree there they were given free choice. What kind of love would that be if he made us love him. He wanted to give us the choice to choose. We are getting off topic ... but for some really, really good background info check out this online video. Even being raised in the church my entire life it answered some questions I had.
http://christiananswers.net/hope/

Look up the videos of Peter Poppoff (sp?) if you want to see some interesting results of Randi's investigations. My question is .. how many authentic practitioners of "empty force" or other chi manisfestations would allow themselves to be scruitinized by Randi. Our martial histories are full of just the opposite, hiding our skills and/or so called "powers."

[Black Jack]

Sometimes I think I must be f@xkin high on skunk weed when I read passages that showcase a belief by grown adults in Adam and Eve.

Scary.


Empty force is utter horsesh!t.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey Jack - go take a look at GGL's sword collecting thread. I don't think there's much new for you there, but I bet you have some good links for him. And if you've never looked at my kukri link, definitely explore there for a while.

[MasterKiller]

Actually he wanted to give us free choice and by placing the tree there they were given free choice. What kind of love would that be if he made us love him. He wanted to give us the choice to choose. How can a non-self-aware being love anything freely? In order to love God honestly, one would have to be aware of themselves in order to be aware of their relationship to him. If God truley wanted people to love him, he would have made them self-aware from the beginning, or at least not punish them for reaching a state of awareness that was conducive to honestly loving him; otherwise, people would just be pets who loved the hand that fed them because it offered them food, which is how he orginally created us (in his image?).

[Former castleva]

Unbelievable.

A thread about skepticism turned to a thread about religion.
You really can´t explain it,you can´t escape it,the neural virus will get you too.

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, I could try the old 'contemporary art' threadjack...

HEY EVERYBODY! IT'S INKA ESSENHIGH! (http://www.contemporaryartproject.com/cap/content/collection/artist_essenhigh.asp)

[joedoe]

Your thread-jacking fu needs some work CSN :D

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I think he wanted us to become self aware. I think we were BEFORE we ate the apple. Infact, doesn't knowing a set of rules, and then intentionally violating them indicate some sort of awareness of self?

Also, reguardless of what it says in the bible, is it possible this story describes the drying up of our natural habitat, thus turning it into a hot arid Savanna? And under those conditions, our intellegance flurished out of sheer need of it in order to surive?

When the "Apple" was ate, we were in the dawn of our intellegance, and soon after, "Eden" tunred into a Savanna.

The whole story could very well, be ancient man being too hard on himself over something that not only he couldn't controll, but something that actually created the mental ability to record the history in a story to begin with?

[Royal Dragon]

Oh, and one more thing, Thread Jacking on KFO is traditionally done with "Bacon Sammitches!!!"