1st VTAA HK Conference (1999)

[Phil Redmond]

I was just watched part of the 1st HK VTAA Conference VCDs from 1999. There is a man demonstrating the Chum Kiu form right after Tsui Shung Ting (sp)? does SLT. Does anyone know who he is? I didn't get to hear his introduction. Also there seems to have been some editing. I know this because I have copies of the video taken by one of William Cheung's students. Also, was Ho Kam Ming there?
Phil

[datou]

Hi Phil,

I believe it is Siu Yuk Men who is performing his chum kiu after Tsui Sheung Tin. I don't know about Ho Kam Ming though, maybe yuanfen knows?

[yuanfen]

Phil Datou is correct:

Hi Phil,

I believe it is Siu Yuk Men who is performing his chum kiu after Tsui Sheung Tin
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Siu Yuk Men gives lessons at specific times at the VTAA.


No- Ho Kam Ming wasnt there. He pretty well marches to his own drum. Although he has been drafted before for leadership in the VTAA years ago- he pretty well stays out of VTAA politics. BTW at Master Ho's site- there is a nice picture of Master Ho with Wong Shon Leung, Lok Yiu and Tsui Song Tin. If memory serves with Ip Ching way off to the right. There are also a couple of pictures when Ip man would visit Master Ho's Macao school. One of them has sifu Augustine Fong as a young man.. half way to the left and a couple of rows in the back with Master Ho and Ip Man in the center.

[Phil Redmond]

Thank you datou. I was impressed with sifu Siu Yuk Men's form and kicks for a man his age.

yuanfen, thanks also. I've heard that HKM may have stayed with YM longer than the other students. I know that YM visited his school in Macau. Also, have you heard of one of Yip Man's students saying that he surpassed YM? Maybe it's just a rumor.
Phil

[yuanfen]

Ho Kam Ming would never say anything like that.
He has a classic old world respect for his teacher.

[Phil Redmond]

I never even thought it was HKM. I really can't remember the name I heard though.
Phil

[sel]

phil,
i believe it was tsui seung tin. he didn't make the proclamation himself though, he was told this by yip man in regards to sil lim tao.

i attended a tsui seung tin seminar once, where he invited us to feel his force moving in his body. placing a hand on his arm, i could actually feel something moving back and forth under his skin. he directed the force with his mind to flow up and down his arm at will, without moving his body at all.
he can, at will, directed by only his mind, move this force to any part of his body he sends it to.
it's quite amazing!

[yuanfen]

sel- I have touched TST's arm - while he was doing that.
But better than Ip man?
I dont think so. None of them. You cant judge Ip man by the video just before his death. Different folks got some glimpses of him-and were fascinated and the public wing chun explosion
began.

As NTC pointed out it's upto us with civil discussion and sharing to try and put puzzles of the art together.

Cagey Ip Man took things with him that no one got.

There is more to some teachers than students know.
Ip Man was cagey--- you are the best in slt, you are the long pole man, you are the chum kiu man. you area grandmaster-
whata hall of mirrors.

I think that different people saw bits and pieces of him-
I dont think the Ip man movie if it comes out will do him justice-
it would take a Norman Mailer type with real interview money and a research budget to do the full story.

[yylee]

Originally posted by yuanfen
There is more to some teachers than students know.
Ip Man was cagey--- you are the best in slt, you are the long pole man, you are the chum kiu man. you area grandmaster-
whata hall of mirrors.


Joy, everyone is good at something. I heard YM introduced his students to the press back then along with their nicknames (king of this, king of that). Guess you can't say "Oh look, these are my monkey students!". Just like when you tell others about your kids, you say the eldest is the most athletic, the second is the most artistic..... so and so. Sometimes, there are things that a father couldn't achieve in a life time, but the son can with little difficulties. Sometimes sons may never be like their fathers in many ways.

It is a good thing that students surpass their teachers, otherwise generations later the art will have nothing left.

[Rill]

Also there seems to have been some editing. I know this because I have copies of the video taken by one of William Cheung's students.
I'm told no-one was supposed to be filming at all, since everyone was going to have the same video to watch. There may have been some confusion over this, since there was at least one other student doing some filming at one point, which was interrupted (unless it was the same student doing the filming, which is quite possible).

[yuanfen]

Joy, everyone is good at something. I heard YM introduced his students to the press back then along with their nicknames (king of this, king of that). Guess you can't say "Oh look, these are my monkey students!". Just like when you tell others about your kids, you say the eldest is the most athletic, the second is the most artistic..... so and so. Sometimes, there are things that a father couldn't achieve in a life time, but the son can with little difficulties. Sometimes sons may never be like their fathers in many ways.

(( Good- but better? He kidded a lot.Introducing all his students to the press at one time? i dont think so. 1950-1962- the intense HK teaching period...different waves of students- some in public some in private. Some didnt even know each other well. Used nicknames ...some likedthe titles and used them. Ho Kam Ming once was called King of the Chum Kiu- he never used the nickname. The father analogy sounds reasonable- but IM wasnt really a model father... lots of great people werent/arent---
entirely different fields---Einstein, Gandhi, Rousseau(who wrote one of the great books on child raising-Emile. I admire IM for his wing chun- I ignore the dark side. Many folks have one including prolly me- though the content may be different. Lady Godiva-make it
dark chocolate<g>))))

It is a good thing that students surpass their teachers, otherwise generations later the art will have nothing left.

((In principle true- a good thing. In actuality in IM's lifetime- I dont think that is/was the case. Sure when IM was old, retired and ill- folks could
probably mishandle him. But anyone among IM's students including TST surpassing
IM before his final illness in knowledge or his total history of self defense-Nope IMO. But folks eveolving well with his legacy and carrying the art furher- sure is a possibility. Effort and nature at work))

[Phil Redmond]

Yuanfen wrote: "sel- I have touched TST's arm - while he was doing that"
Joy, my Chen Tai Chi sifu showed me that trick and how to do it in about 5 min. I'm not saying anything bad about TST but it's just like the one where someone will do a biu jee and you see their finger tips turn red and tell you that they can focus thier chi to their fingers at will. The trick is that they squeeze the fist pushing the blood away from the finger tips then thrust the finger forward. Of course the blood will rush to the finger tips. Then there is the one where you can make "goose bumps" on your arms appear at will. I've learned a few of these parlor tricks.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

There is more to some teachers than students know. Ip Man was cagey--- you are the best in slt, you are the long pole man, you are the chum kiu man. you area grandmaster- whata hall of mirrors. I think that different people saw bits and pieces of him- I dont think the Ip man movie if it comes out will do him justice- it would take a Norman Mailer type with real interview money and a research budget to do the full story
Well said Joy, That's why I have no trouble with William Cheung's story. I believe Yip Man really did tell him that he was teaching him something different. I know Sifu really believes it. Would you think your Sifu was lying to you?
Phil

[saulauchung]

"I was impressed with sifu Siu Yuk Men's form and kicks for a man his age."

Personally I do not share that view. From his performance on tape and seeing him in person, I've seen much, much better (of people in the same age group). An example is Mr. Lai Ying-chau. See his interview in the latest release of the Prodigal Son and you'll see what I mean.

[yuanfen]

Phil sez:
I know Sifu really believes it.
--------------------------------------------------
Phil- I understand. Joy

Saulauchung-
I am not a fan of the VTAA tapes.

[sel]

yuanfen- um...i didn't say anything about judging yip man from the video. ?? just trying to answer phil's question is all :) master tsui is humble, and will always tell you that his master, yip man was better than him. he mentioned what yip man said about his sil lim tao in an anecdotal way. please don't take it out of context.
what did you think about what you felt in master tsui's arm?

phil- can you do this particular "parlour trick"? after 10 years of training, i'm nowhere near being able to do what master tsui does with his force. i thought it came from decades of sil lim tao practise! i'd like to hear how to do it after five minutes! how is it done?

i don't think the idea of a student surpassing his master is unbelievable. surely one would hope to better one's master and in turn pass on a superior wing chun to our own students? perhaps just not in the master's lifetime. it's probably a hard goal to achieve these days, not many of us would have the luck to be able to put the time in to make it happen. but we can always try eh?

[yylee]

Originally posted by yuanfen
He kidded a lot.Introducing all his students to the press at one time? i dont think so. 1950-1962- the intense HK teaching period...different waves of students- some in public some in private. Some didnt even know each other well.

some started teaching after a year or two of training..... I heard :)

Back then MA people in HK always had their exposures in the press, I think Lee Man helped build up a reputation in the HK new media. I also heard Wang Kiu published "Gong Sau" results in some small HK newspaper.

TST's achievement is unbelievable to some, even to his own peer SiHingDai's. People who admire his skills would of course have their reasons. What you see is not always what I see, so will leave it at that :)

[Phil Redmond]

I didn't say his kicks were the best I've seen. On the documentary video Shaolin Diplomacy there are people in their 80's doing high kicks and full splits.

[yuanfen]

sel- I did not say that you were referring to the video. And I know that master TST is humble and would not himself have anything but the deepest respect for his sifu, his skills and his knowledge.
With missing tones in net conversations- easy to miscommunicate.
Ok?

yylee sez:some started teaching after a year or two of training..... I heard
((I was referring to the stages of Ip Man's teaching 1950-1962.
I know of no instance where IM lined up all his 1950-1962 students before the press and said who was good at what.
Yes- there is wide variance among people who claim IM as their sifu as to how much actual hands on instruction that they really got from Ip man himself. Human nature- lots of self promotion
For newbies- ploughing through the zig zags isnt easy)).

[sel]

yuanfen- mybad! no worries :)

[reneritchie]

Hey Joy,

Have you had the chance to touch hands with Ho sifu? I've heard some remarkable things about what he can do in Chi Sao.

[yuanfen]

Rene- Very fortunately-Yes- several times.

His control is amazing. A little correction here and there
and lightbulbs come on.

He is getting up in years and is a true fountain of knowledge....not just in chi sao
but in all aspects of wing chun. I am very fortunate (hence true yuanfen)
to have the sigung and sifu that I have. They have their own unique personalities but they have their awesome common foundations.

Actually touching hands and doing chi sao is such a different world from jabberwocky.- or describing it.

Sigung Ho's chi sao with Ip Man was extensive. Ip Man was selective about doing chi sao- sigung is from the same mold.

[yuanfen]

Rene- Yes- several times.

His control is amazing. A little correction here and there
and lightbulbs come on.

He is getting up in years and is a true fountain of knowledge....not just in chi sao
but in all aspects of wing chun. I am very fortunate (hence true yuanfen)
to have the sigung and sifu that I have. They have their own unique personalities but they have their awesome common foundations.

Actually touching hands and doing chi sao is such a different world from jabberwocky.- or describing it.

Sigung Ho's chi sao with Ip Man was extensive.

[mun hung]

yaunfen - I think you are correct about Yip Man being cagey. From the stories I've heard from my SiFu, I believe that there is much that is scattered and also lost.

IMHO - Yip Man was blessed with a combination of both natural ability and the quality training time that only a wealthy young man could afford. Not many distractions or concerns to hinder his training. From what I gather - his best students were very much like him. Unfortunately some of them chose not to teach or were never put into a position where they had to teach for a living.

[ntc]

Yuan:

- I totally concur with you about doing Chi Sao with Sifu Ho. He is pretty amazing, and the sensitivity, control, and structure he exhibits during Chi Sao takes Wing Chun to another level few are able to duplicate, teach, or demonstrate. In my own training over the years, Sifu Ho and I spent many, many hours doing Chi Sao, and I can't tell you how much I miss doing Chi Sao with him. I have also had the privilege to touch hands with some of Yip Man's other students, and all the exposure made me really appreciate having had the opportunity to be trained by Sifu Ho. It is almost impossible to describe the experience itself, but I am sure that those folks like yourself who have had the opportunity to practice with him know what I mean. It definitely brings to light why Chi Sao is such an essential tool for the development of sensitivity, structure, timing, control and distance, as well as why it is such an indispensable part of one's Wing Chun training.

[yuanfen]

Thanks NTC- your much greater experience and exposure to master Ho as your sifu- confirms my view of his knowledge from the touches of my experience- made possible by the opening of the door to wing chun by my sifu.
Sigung is really a wing chun treasure specially since the passing of other wing chun masters.

joy

[ntc]

Yuan:

Can't agree with you more !!!