What's the deal with WT?

[chen zhen]

Recently I visited a WT (Leung Ting lineage, obviously) school, or rather "center", in my hometown Copenhagen. The only WC/WT in my country is in that school/lineage. I visited because I have always been interested in WC, but I became more and more dissapointed when I entered the place.
It was constructed like some center/hangoutplace, and had other than the traininghall itself, a fitness-center, a lockerroom, a cafe (with a bar, where a waitress in a "WT" t-shirt served drinks and handed out the keys to the lockerroom if you payed ). I thought to myself "how commercialised is this place?", as I watched many many people walk around with the exact same clothes with the "WT" emblem. The class too was a dissapointment, because he told us visitors all the time that "WT is superior to everything" and "WT is so fantastic this and that"(and I have talked to other WT practicioners, and they seemed like they had been indoctrinated with the fantasticness of the style) . And then he told about the "WT-Qigong(which of course has a little "TM" mark in the logo) which was the "WT-version of Taiji" which I of course knew right away was BS.
I also noticed how they sold posters & books & mugs etc with WT stuff on them.

Now when my babbling is over... I want to know: Is this really how WT/WC has evolved to? From being a relatively little-known KF style in southern China to being a highly commercialised money-making machine with a "TM" mark in their logo?

Because if that is the case, I don't wanna have anything to do with Wing Chun again. ever.

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- no comment on the place that you visited.

You are confusing Wt with Wc---
WC has different lineages.
WT- though trademarked as WT is pronounce the same and is Leung Ting and Kerspecht's organization.
There are differences in approaches to wing chun.

[datou]

Being that the school you visited is so commercialized, you are best to avoid training there! I can't believe they had the nerve to say that WT was the best! I mean coming from a WT school? The nerve!

Can you also possibly imagine the type of horrible people who would want to make a living out of teaching a martial art they enjoy? Horrible, absolutely horrible...

They should just stick to a regular 9-5 job at some office and be happy like all the rest of us. Those animals!

[chen zhen]

Yuanfen: I know the difference between WC & WT, and that the commercialization is worse in WT, but I would like to know if it's the case in all lineages of WC, not regarding the spelling.

Datou: I don't know what your deal is, you're both giving me an advise, and being sarcastic, so I don't know what to think of you.

More help, please?:(

[kj]

Originally posted by chen zhen
... but I would like to know if it's the case in all lineages of WC ...

Naturally not. Schools, groups, practitioners. and respective motivations vary widely just as people everywhere do. We just don't hear as much about all the small schools, including the many basement, garage and park groups who practice for reasons of passion or pragmatism. I have a theory that the smaller and relatively unknown groups actually make up the larger portion of the Wing Chun population around the world.

Even within a large and formal organization as WT, people cannot all be cut from the same cloth. Those kinds of things are obviously more important to some people than to others. There are some very decent folks from that organization even here on this list, and who come to share of themselves rather than peddle wares.

I too tend to shy away from the sort of ambiance you described, but it pays to keep an open mind about individuals rather than paint them all the same, especially on account of something as superficial as decor or conveniences. Even in our small group, where we on the other end of the spectrum as regards formalities and commercialism, many practitioners enjoy wearing a tee shirt with our logo on it from time to time. Small groups or large, demonstrations of affinity and pride are natural.

Beyond concerns of tee shirts, logos, beverage bars, and other trappings, Wing Chun is well worth the trouble of seeking out someone to learn from who rings with you.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[zultan]

if possible check out some more schools.you said there arent any others in you area so if you really want to practice wing chun you may have to travel a little bit.just like many things wt has some really good people and some awful folks doing it.

[FIRE HAWK]

Here is a Wing Chun school in Denmark check it out
http://www.wingchun.dk/dwca/skoler/denmark_uk.htm

[Grendel]

Originally posted by chen zhen
Because if that is the case, I don't wanna have anything to do with Wing Chun again. ever.
You are absolutely right to think that way.

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen-

Even if "something is rotten in Denmark"(Shakespeare in Hamlet)-
its a big wide world. Lots of variance in schools, instructors,
knowledge of the art and other things.

[Phenix]

Chen Zen,

You know, I think there is nothing wrong with WT. Honest.

See, in this world, people doing different things and expect different things. But, there is reality.

To run a school, one needs to make money. Otherwise, the school will not exist. Certainly, some will like to run a smaller group and the expectation is different.

So, there are WC school which has to make money to run. There are WC sifu who will teach without taking a cents. There are in between.

NOw, if a school, similar to a university, run in a very business way, one pays and they provide one with the knowledge. Then, there is nothing wrong with that. It is a business. We can't expect others to be a great martial hero with integrity. We just Can't. We might expect ourself to live in integrity. But, how many percent of the martial artists are basically drive by money or fame?

Certainly, it will be great to have a saint like sifu. But, in reality, what is the propotion?

IMHO, if you think the school you visit offer the art you want and think it is worthed. Pay and get it. If not then walk away. Looking for a saint type and integrity and high moral place. one needs to find it somewhere else. This is reality. Why complain?

You post ---
"Because if that is the case, I don't wanna have anything to do with Wing Chun again. ever. "

See, honestly, no one owe you anything. Even the school you visit, you go in there at will. so, you can make the above comment. But, what is that good?

I know, I know, Joy, KJ, Rene,..... must think I am going nuts by commenting the above. :D.

But, nah, that is the reality of life. Some will use WCK to make money. It is similar to use Music to make money. Certainly, for a real artist it is sacret. But then how many artist die in povety, and the art lost?

Certainly, with a certain standard or reference I will agree with Chen Zen. But then, who sets the standard? if I use my own. Then that is my Ego.

Money is not dirty. Money doesn't mean low moral. Hi MOral doesn't mean high quality. It is not a black and white world isn't it? But, should we be honest or should we be hipocrate to ourself and to the people around?

You know, sometimes, I rather, everything open on the table. you pay this must you got this much. if everyone agree then deal, no then no deal. At least, there is no invisible string attach.

Saying that, certainly, in this world, there are poeple similar to Mother Teresa, certainly they exist. and the reason we all respect her highly because it is so rare.

Real honest, Real Integrity, Real Friendship, Real compassionate, they are real rare. The rest of us, are just double standard most of the time. May be not you but I have to admit I am until I reach Mother Teresa's level.

[yuanfen]

To run a school, one needs to make money. Otherwise, the school will not exist. Certainly, some will like to run a smaller group and the expectation is different.

((True)

So, there are WC school which has to make money to run. There are WC sifu who will teach without taking a cents. There are in between.
((True))

NOw, if a school, similar to a university, run in a very business way, one pays and they provide one with the knowledge. Then, there is nothing wrong with that.
((True))



Certainly, it will be great to have a saint like sifu. But, in reality, what is the propotion?

(I prefer some sinners to saints- dont leave me with Joan of Arc.Please))

IMHO, if you think the school you visit offer the art you want and think it is worthed. Pay and get it. If not then walk away.

((True))


I know, I know, Joy, KJ, Rene,..... must think I am going nuts by commenting the above. .

((No nays from this end!!!))



You know, sometimes, I rather, everything open on the table. you pay this must you got this much. if everyone agree then deal, no then no deal. At least, there is no invisible string attach.

((Nota bad idea..but no dogmatic about either. Gump and the box of chocolates))

Saying that, certainly, in this world, there are poeple similar to Mother Teresa, certainly they exist. and the reason we all respect her highly because it is so rare.

((Wait a minute. met the lady- she reported to an ex teacher of mine who became a Cardinal. I hope that they are having a good time together.She had an agenda--- anti abortion...conservative Catholicism. I wouldnt wanta statute for bird ****- but they do need a place dont they. But pleez- no pigeons-theirs is the worst. One can admire a hawk or an eagle--has to be a high statute- thank you))))

Real honest, Real Integrity, Real Friendship, Real compassionate, they are real rare. The rest of us, are just double standard most of the time. May be not you but I have to admit I am until I reach Mother Teresa's level.

( No thanks I am not counting on spending etrnity with Mother Teresa or Billy Graham... the foot of a shade tree at Sarnath would be ok. I wouldnt go to Copenhagen for good tobacco either. One good Cuban cigar, a Singha beer, Ava Gardner , a good collection of the world's best poetry- undera large banyan tree- if promised I will teach you wing chun. Honest injun- you can trust me- now and then at least.))

[Phenix]

Hey Joy,

Don't you know by now that I am a libra (sp) but pretend to be conservative... hahaaha

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-

Hey- I am a Virgo and a Rooster-
no wonder I sound "definitive"
and not particularly popular-
which is ok..
kismet/destiny/yuanfen!!

PS. the more conservative-really an artist son is a libra... the crazy one is a snake!! And he invented Chaos. Late spouse wasa Gemini/ox. Challenging.

Number one son- not into sports-- but from what judo he learned- diffucult to throw him.
Number 2 son learned some wing chun and some boxing(same gym where Tyson used to work out)- can handle himself if he doesnt bite off more than he can chew. The nephew I raised - wing chun- football and wretling... was number one seeded heavyweight high school grappler in oklahoma... and in football his job with the Okmulgee Tigers was to sit on the chest of the quarterback from the henryetta Mudhens- a guy who is known as troy Aikman of the Dallas Cowboys.

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
I know, I know, Joy, KJ, Rene,..... must think I am going nuts by commenting the above. :D.

If so, then you are in good company. ;) Very good post.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[chen zhen]

Thanks for all the good responses. It was a little more comforting.:)

But I'd like to make a few more comments on the place... The matter with the clothes, it was meant that you have to wear clothes in SPECIFIC colours, and they said it was best if all had the exact same colours on (I know many styles have students the same clothes on, like gi's, but it was weird rules they had there.) Most of the students (students flocked around the place. VERY popular place) looked buff, and most would hit the weight-training center after orbefore class. When I watched the students, they did'nt look like they understood the WC principles, as they mostly used muscular force in their techniques.
Another thing is the sash/levels you had to get to be able to train on a higher level. it was constructed the way that you had to attend seminars each month,(which was *VERY* pricy) to get to the next level, and there was A LOT of levels. I also found that they began to teach chi-sao after the highest levels was attained (and that is after, like 2-3 years, maybe.:eek: is that normal?!)

There's much more points of critique, but I'll point them out later.
here's a link to the school (in danish, sorry)
www.dewto.dk

FIREHAWK: Yes, I know that school. That's the other WC organisation in Denmark, Samuel Kwok lineage. I visited that school a couple of times, it was a year ago or something. They were'nt that great, the students where jerks, and the teacher seemed a *tad* too young to be a shifu.(and was eating a big meal of fastfood right before class:eek: )

once again, thanks for the great responses. "train hard"!:)

[chen zhen]

btw, feedback from jesper & hendrik would be great, they're danish WT students.:)

[kj]

Originally posted by chen zhen
... students flocked around the place. VERY popular place...

Then it seems a lot of people are getting what they want.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[chen zhen]

I mean, it's so popular that the level of the training has been lowered considerably.

edit: imo, that is.

[yuanfen]

Chen zhen;

The students search for a good teacher and then learning is an important part of a good kung fu journey. IMO you smile and ignore the rest.

Folks who settle for advertisements keep entire economies going.
Some dips when some folks realize--- more selling and less production can be a problem. But then we can go global- after all WT has reached Copengahegen. Does the mermaid blush?

Remember P.T Barnum's observation - a sucker is born every minute. And to think that I havent gone to Barnum and Bailey in many a year. Where is Emmet Kelley- when we need him?
Bring in the clowns.

[fidon]

I reckon that WT school is up themselves, claiming to be the best, and convincing the students and telling them that the school is the best? Ha! People are intelligent enough to make their own decisions to whether or not a school is good or not. And all that commercialisation doesnt seem too good either, just trying in increase their students and money, and probably wihtout care to the actual quality of the students they produce.

[kj]

Originally posted by chen zhen
I mean, it's so popular that the level of the training has been lowered considerably.

edit: imo, that is.

Understood.

To clarify my comment, the fact that people are getting what they want should explain quite a lot about what is being sold. It sounds highly symbiotic. Not all of us are the right kinds of students for that kind of school, but obviously there are plenty of people who are.

FWIW, I strongly concur with zultan - I would not advise letting distance be the constraint in finding and working with the teacher who is right for you. The time, effort and expense of training is far too big an investment to make simply on the basis of convenience. IMHO of course, though I speak from experience on this one.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Originally posted by chen zhen
btw, feedback from jesper & hendrik would be great, they're danish WT students.:)


Don't you know I makes millions with WCK?
I sell T-****.
Secret Instruction VCD.
Secret WCK making millions instructors book?
See, it is similar to Mc Dornad, But hey your kids love them, beside the Burger, kids has new toys, and great friench fries. ....

By the way, I am comming out with a new Book Title:
WCK's Quick Start Manual. This Manual be able you to understand yourself so well that spending 2 weeks with it you will master 4 years of experience and here from learning from any lineage will be easy. the price of the Manual is 500 USD to own.

see 500 is cheap. say you train with a sifu and have to pay 80 bucks per month. a year will be 960, and 4 years will be more then 3700. so to have 4 years in 2 weeks just for 500usd. cheap cheap. beside you have my personal couching. Where can you have a sifu with directly of 30 years experience to coach you personally. And more over, if you asked some GM about the thing you learn in the manual, I guaratee that they don't even know. Because it is a 30 years research.

So, convince enought? just 500USD. by the way, it is 16 weeks back order from the day it will be release..:D

[jesper]

First up I dont train in the WT center anymore, but here goes.

About the center; The philosify is that they wanted a place to hang around, not just train and go home.
WAAAAYYYY back when I started we had a little ****ty training hall you had to pass two backyards, a nonexistance door and some dangerous stairwells to get into. moreover We had to share it with some dancers who trained before and after us. That meant we could train max 3 times a week.
We then moved to a bigger place, but still had to share it with other clubs, and in the meanwhile WT really took of in Denmark, so pretty fast there was simply not enough room. I still remember many times you would have to duck when some staff would come flying through the air because people would be doing weapons training in one end and Chi sao in the other :) (hey good for developing reflexes btw).
We then got the posibility to move into a huge location, where we would not be disturbed all the time.
That was about the time that management decided that since we had all this space they should offer other forms of training and therefore they decided to make room for weight training and Airobics. They also decided that it would be cool to have a place to hang out after training so they even made room for a small cafe where you could sit and talk with your friends or watch vidios. All in all I fail to see whats so bad about offering these kinds of things ? especially when its all included in the price.
Moreover in the center you have the posibility to train from 0700 to 2130 5 days a week and from 1000 to 1700 on weekends. I dare you to tell me another martial art school in denmark where you can do that.

As for the teachers telling how WT is the best, well marketing stuff is a part of all organisations. Just close your ears to that bs. many people do, and still train up there.

Lastly (since im out of time) about the skill level of the students. Well of cause they are not that good, thats why they are students after all. If you want to judge how good you can become go A few rounds with one of the instructors. There are 15-20 or so up there so its not that difficult to find one :) since you will always find at least a few working not matter the hour

[chen zhen]

Thank you jesper. It's better to hear from someone that actually know the place.
It's also cool that they have training everyday, so that you can get there to train the days you want. But with the skill-level, I meant that it's (maybe..?) lower than what you would expect students to be after the period they have actually trained. But that have been the case with most styles I have been exposed to here, so I can't really use it as a an argument.:rolleyes:

Thanks for all the good responses, but I have actually become more confused about it now.
I don't know what to think about it anymore, really.:confused: :(

[kj]

Good post, jesper. Some of the amenities sound Utopian enough for a little envy. No doubt many of the basement, garage and park groups would enjoy such luxuries just as the people of that particular school enjoy theirs. There is always a dilemma, and as Hendrik suggests no single solution to suit the fine balances of each and every unique taste.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[AndrewS]

The DEWTO, from what I've heard, is the last group anyone should be taking shots at. The senior, serious folks have extraordinary skills from what I understand, and very friendly in sharing them. They have a good commercial concern going, with enough students running through to keep the place operating, allow a number of instructors to train WT for a living, and maintain an active full-contact program.

The 5-day summer camps are a couple of hundred bucks, room and board, included- cheaper training you'll rarely find.

Teaching is taken very seriously there- the instructors receive weekly or bi-weekly training and feedback on teaching.

A bunch of those folks work the door, and more technical guys in need of cash are sometimes shuttled into such gigs for financial and experiential reasons.

Basically, as a commercial martial arts center, the DEWTO does a whole lot right.

If you want to be a full-time martial artist your choices are to be independantly wealthy, run a school as a successful business, or be one of the 50 to 100 people on the planet who pay the bills as pro fighters for a couple of years.

They chose option #2, and are doing it pretty well.

Andrew

[tnwingtsun]

WOW!

How many of us would love to have a place to hang out at after training that has a cafe to shoot the bull or talk about training.

More power to them!

I've heard good things about Demark also,a sihing of mine is from there.

[Gandolf269]

Chen Zhen,

No not all WT facilities are like this. Sounds humorous to me that a school that teaches Martial Arts would be set up that way. They should at least have the waitress' in the official WT tank top.

I wouldn't train a place like that, but I know that my Sifu wouldn't teach in a place like that. I like WingTsun and that's why I have stayed with it, versus changing to another school in the area. There are differences between WT and WC and VT, but not that many. The underlying principles are (or should be) the same, even if it's not "Yip Man" Wing Chun. I would suggest to try a different school in the area. If you don't feel good about a particular school don't join, your gut instincts are usually correct when first impressions are all you have to judge something with.

For the record: I don't have a problem with a school that wants to be setup like a health club (juice bar, arobics class, etc), I just wouldn't train there.

[rubthebuddha]

i wouldn't mind it, as long as i got deals on shakes and smoothies for being an instructor. :o

i can't decide if i would like such a kwoon or not. it has it's blatant advantages, but it somewhat goes against the grain of the typical kwoon. however, sticking with one thing because it's merely tradition isn't necessarily a good thing (i know, saying that in a WC forum is asking for ribshots ;)) -- sticking with what you're more comfortable with and going to get the greatest benefits from is the best idea.

jesper -- thanks for the background info on the school. :)

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by yuanfen
The students search for a good teacher and then learning is an important part of a good kung fu journey. IMO you smile and ignore the rest.



I once went on a journey across China with a Pig and and a Buddhist Monk, searching for the truth about Wing Chun. All I got was this stupid t-shirt.

[yuanfen]

Maybe the pig knew something and you missed it,

There are pigs and there are pigs!

[rubthebuddha]

did yip man never pass on the uncloven hoof strike?

[PaulH]

AD,

Remove that crown on your forehead, you won't be deluded into thinking that all you get is the T shirt. Ha! Ha! The way I look at this is you can never be enlightened of the WC truth if it did not exist already in your mind. Go West, young man!

Regards,

[yuanfen]

RTB- ha ha--- ever seen wild pigs or the Arizona desert versions
(javelinas)-
they aint pork rinds. They dont see too well- but they attack the center line.

And the monk accompaying Alpha Dog cudda been a Daoist saboteur- protecting the metabolic transformation chambers along the way!The wrong kind of no mind. Interested in his own longevity and alchemy,

No wonder AD got only a T shirt to show for his troubles.
You gotta have the right pig and the right monk on your journey!!
Like Damo you need a staff as well. The right kind.

[PaulH]

If you are taken for a ride, who do you blame?

The easiest person to deceive is one’s own self.
- Edward George Earle Bulwer-Lytton

Like greedy fish, one often bites the bait willingly. The hardest thing in life maybe simply to be honest with oneself. "To thy ownself, be true."

Regards,

[rubthebuddha]

yuanfen -- only time i've seen a javelina is in a computer game i've played (age of empires II, if you're curious).

but i'm curious -- do they make a good bacon sammich?

[yuanfen]

Yes- if you get the coarse hairs out of your teeth!
Maybe. generally I run from them. A friend had to
have his vet sew up his beagle's side which was ripped open by a javelina way into the Superstition mountain area- way east in the valley...past Apache Junction. There is the legend of the Lost Durchman's mine with gold hidden there.!!

[rubthebuddha]

hmmm, i'm good at diggin, if you can keep them javelinas offa me. you up for a field trip?

[chen zhen]

They should at least have the waitress' in the official WT tank top.

They had!:D
The logo was just in *very* bright green.

[DarthGorn]

I noticed that they have now resigned from the EWTO. Someone tried to post about it on the UK WT site but got kicked off, does anyone know why they left? On the website it gives some very unclear statements but not the whole story.

[DarthGorn]

I noticed that they have now resigned from the EWTO. Someone tried to post about it on the UK WT site but got kicked off, does anyone know why they left? On the website it gives some very unclear statements but not the whole story.

[chen zhen]

wtf? details..?:confused:

[Fresh]

No gossipin. :D

[DarthGorn]

If you click on the link from one of the previous posts it takes you to their website and there is a link that tells you not very much other than they resigned because of differences. Here's the link:

www.dewto.dk

[rubthebuddha]

doesn't seem the respectable folks in scandinavialandia want there to be any gossipin or hard feelins. let's just wish 'em good trainin. :)

[anerlich]

If I found a school that offered training, a cafe and bar with barmaids in tanktops and cable on a plasma TV, I'd probably never leave the place.

[chen zhen]

doesn't seem the respectable folks in scandinavialandia want there to be any gossipin or hard feelins. let's just wish 'em good trainin.

Thanks..;):)


If I found a school that offered training, a cafe and bar with barmaids in tanktops and cable on a plasma TV, I'd probably never leave the place.

It's a question of preference, I guess..
:p

[DarthGorn]

If only more people were like that :(

[rubthebuddha]

darth -- more people are. there are just a buncha renobs that make it un-fun for the rest of us.

andrew -- but be careful. those barmaids will kick your ass if you don't tip well. ;)

chenners -- welcome. now go work on your stances. :p

[chen zhen]

If only more people were like that

Like what?


chenners -- welcome. now go work on your stances.

That would not be me you're talking to..:p

[rubthebuddha]

i said, go work on your stances! :mad:

;)

and i think he was referring to the folks in Scandinavialandia, who just said they were separating while still wishing other folks good training. i dunno what the causes of the separation were, but parting without the hatin is a sign of maturity -- which the martial arts world needs plenty more of. :)

[chen zhen]

just wait.. LT will soon send Emin and his Goons over here to Copenhagen to straiten out the issues..:p;)

RTB:I just became confused because u said "welcome". I'm an old-timer here..:confused::D

[DarthGorn]

I found this link on the EWTO UK site and copied it before it was deleted, it's an organisation of clubs called the Alliance.

http://www.wtcenterfyn.dk/alliance/

Chen, I thought Emin had been kicked out of the WT community?

[rubthebuddha]

emin left the wt community after some badness. the whole "kicked out" thing happened after he declared himself going solo.

chenners: you said thanks after quoting my wish that those in scandinavialandia have good training. i replied with welcome. then i commanded you to work on your stances. :p

[chen zhen]

I was referring to the Emin vs. Cheung incident.. and from Cheung's POV, Emin showed up with his muggers to straighten things out..knowwaddamean:p:D

RTB: It is usually termed "You're welcome"..:p
But, yeah thanks anyway..:rolleyes:

[rubthebuddha]

maybe for snobby bums over in tanska, but here, we be much more casual, you dig? :D

[chen zhen]

We be mo' casual than u know..:cool:

And it's called "Danmark" in danish, not Tanska.. that is the finnish name.:p

[Tristan]

The danish people left the EWTO because they were not so happy with Kernspecht´s interpretation of the Leung Ting style. It became obvious to them that there are some big differences between the way LT likes to teach and the german version they were stucked to.

Now the thing with the alliance is that they want to grow a large organisation so they can convince LT to support them.

T.

[rubthebuddha]

actually, chen, i was referring to you. :p

tristan -- if know more and are willing to share, i'd like to know more about the departure of the danish folk. if you' prefer not to say it here, feel free to PM me. i'm just curious as to what's going on in the WT world. :)

[chen zhen]

actually, chen, i was referring to you.

I know.
:p

[Tristan]

@ rubthebuddha

Look at your PM-box!


Cheers

T

[rubthebuddha]

backatcha, my good sir.