Fanche Lulu Chui

[mantis108]

I think these 2 techniques merits a new thread. So I opened this.

First let's have a recap from Tainan's translation:

<<<Tainan wrote:

WHF's 5th technique
In one of WHF's most interesting chapters he goes into great detail on the first 5 techniques used in sanshou.
He also explains how he goes from 5 techniques to 25 techniques to 125 techniques.
This is based on different combinations.

Among those first 5 important techniques is fanche lulu.

This is what he has to say...

"The Fifth Type:
Fanche lulu fist uses hard(ying) force to defeat hard force and is a purely unyielding(gang) technique.

Also, when tightly and completely surrounded it is an ingenious technique for breaking through the enemy's encirclement.

However, if your bridge is not strong then not only can it not smash through the incoming hand, but the incoming hand can attack and enter.

Two hands make a fist to smash toward the front and return continuously without break.
When this fist goes that one returns and when this fist rises that one descends.
It must smash the incoming hand.
It is like the wheels of a cart whose motion is a non stop turning.

The single hand is lulu.
It comes from above and kills in descent then whips up from below, revolving round and round without end.
Fanche and lulu are both defensive and offensive purely unyielding(gang) hand methods.

If you are skilled in its' application then there will be no strength that can't be destroyed and no enemy that can't be defeated."

On a related note-Wei Hsiaotang of 8 Step Mantis had a very similar thing to say about the first 5 techniqes method of training.
But Wei's first 5 techniques are different.>>>

To be continued...

Mantis108

[Mr.Binx]

[Repost from previous discussion (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23585)]

Originally posted by ninjaboy
what is 'lulu'?
I was inferring from Tainan's translation of WHF's sanshou exerpts that lulu is similar in application to fanche that many tanlgang practioners are familiar with; the main difference being that lulu is executed with one limb instead of two. Since you asked the question though, I'm now curious as to whether or not my inference was correct.

[mantis108]

I finished my long continue post and then the freak'n Norton Crash Guard crashed my laptop. So I lost the whole thing.

Anyway, I commented on the translation also I made the following comment that didn't get posted.

Fanche is basically 2 arms whirling [in a circular manner] towards the same direction. The timing would be slightly off set but both hands definitely in support of each other; because of this Fanche doesn't rely on footwork as much as Lulu does. The imagery of Fanche is 2 turning wheels that are going in the same direction (ie forward).

Lulu is a gear usually made of wood in the old days. It's usually turned by a shaft. The imagery is a gear [one arm] turning another gear [mostly opponent's] in the manner of deflecting and/or smash away the incoming arm (gear). Since the arm doesn't have the support of the other arm, footwork becomes most important. There are of course exceptions as in the case in Tao Hwa San where the two hands opens in front of you like the peach flower's blossom. In this particular case, your arms are even more like one gear turning another gear. BTW, the gears goes in opposite directions.

On a side note, the water wheel design for grain mills is in a way like a lulu itself; hence, Fanche Lulu are essentially the samething. ;)

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

In our introduction to these two techniques we have a drill were we run forward very low to the ground doing fanche.
Then we retreat with lulu and end it with a groin kick.

After we can do it well it becomes a little exercise where:
one man attacks with fanche
and the other retreats with lulu and will kick to the groin as a finish.

It is lulu vs fanche.

I have a similar example with the running, but a slightly diferent hand technique, called outer hanging hand.
I will dig up the quicktime clips.

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
I will dig up the quicktime clips.

This is an intriguing subject for me. I was also curious to see how lulu "...whips up from below.." after the initial strike. I would very much like to see any clips you might have of this technique. Especially if you have any clips of the fanche vs. lulu drills you speak of. That would be awesome!

[Tainan Mantis]

Mr Binx,
Sorry, I don't have the exact fanche lulu clip.

Have you seen the form Mei Hua Lu?
It has retreating fanche and advancing lulu.

[Mr.Binx]

I am not familiar with mei hua lu. Is this a taiji mei hua form or does it just happen to carry a similar name? Please pardon my lack of knowledge on the matter as I am still a naive, young insect when it comes to tanlglang fluency. :D The few tanglang forms I am familiar with are all solely from the qi xing lines of tanlang. My experiences with other lines of tanglang, so far, have been limited to articles, photographs, and video clips from the taiji mei hua and liu he lines. It is possible that I may have seen lulu in action prior to my sparked interest on the subject and not even be aware of it.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mei Hua Lu is common to 7* in HK as well as lineages descended from Song Zide and Jiang Hualong.

I don't know if it exists in Mainland 7*.

Comparing manuscripts from WHF and Li Kunshan I see very few similarites.
In fact you couldn't tell it is the same form by looking at the manuscript.
Although watching performances of the 2 different versions they are very similar.

One aspect that the 2 manuscripts do share is the names fanche and lulu when those two techniques appear in the form.

[bungda07]

Mr. Binx, We do have the Plum Flower set Tainan Mantis is telling you about. It has retreating Fanche six times, followed by a throw, then advancing Lulu three times. See me at class.

Steve M.

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Mei Hua Lu is common to 7* in HK as well as lineages descended from Song Zide and Jiang Hualong.

To my knowledge, the majority of tanlang fighting tactics I am receiving come almost solely from the HK lineage. It is becoming more and more apparent that I am already familiar with the technique and have just not yet made the connection. I was not aware that lulu was prominent in qi xing so I did not even think to ask about the technique within my own kwoon. Wonders never cease.. I am, frankly, fairly excited by the notion. I will continue this search locally. Thankyou for your input Tainan. Your descriptions have lead me to answers that lay upon my own doorstep. Gotta' love life's humor. Also, thankyou Mantis108 for your digression of this topic. Lastly, thankyou bungda07, my sihing, you will be hearing from me in class. :D

[MantisifuFW]

Indeed we do train in fanche and lok lok as Bungda07 as suggested. In fact it is an integral part of our paradigm of defense and offence as taught by WHF.

We use the Fanche both on offense and defense as well as counter offense. As Mantis 108 has said, the Fanche's non reliance upon footwork makes it perfect for many situations both in advancing upon an attacking opponent or in retreating. It can be used where one advances keeping the same side forward or when one steps through each step, changing the side forward as in Muy Fa Loc, Muy Fa Sao.

Though not a part of the lok Lok's long reaching hand, the supporting hand is not to be ignored. It can be used as a supporting block or trap for the Lok Lok, (it is used this way on the mainland, specifically in Yantai's White Ape forms).

ANyway, my two cents worth.

Steve Cottrell