Do "animal styles" make sense?

[Former castleva]

At first,this is not supposed to be a sad attempt to be funny or troll.
I´d just like to kickstart a discussion of some sort.

So basically I was just interested what you think about making up a MA on some animal´s defensive mechanisms.
After all,is it reasonable? We´re not tigers,birds,much less snakes (in terms of classification,we would come closest to tigers,close ancestry with primates not being mentioned) Just to make this easy for those who did not notice yet.
Sure those animals can be all effective and even graceful in terms of backing themselves up,but that´s what they have perfectly adapted to do.Is it logical to conclude that since a tiger as an example (or even a purely mythological dragon) is strong for it´s needs,we should imitate it (with great modification of course) ? Not to even mention an insect.
Well?

[joedoe]

Sure that holds if you are trying to mimick the actions of the animals exactly, however the movements are adapted to the human body. I think the most important thing to get out of animal-based training is not necessarily the movements themselves but more the attitude/mindset/tactics/philosophy embodied by the animal style.

[Former castleva]

I see.
Could you elaborate on the mindset of a certain animal style?
Besides this,my key point goes (sorry if I did not make it clear enough) whether it is,and how reasonable/"justified" the thing is?
Like,sure they have to be adapted to humans,but how much can you get out of it with a human physique?

[Serpent]

I see training animal styles as an attempt to recreate the methodology of the weapons they use (i.e. a tiger claw attack rather than a fist) but also, and perhaps more importantly, to try to embody the intent and the spirit of the animal in question.

If you just try to mimic an animal verbatim while you fight you'll end up in the Paulie Zink School Of Idiots! ;)

[Former castleva]

Thank you both.

I understand,and if I do not,it seems to me there is a cultural liking towards previously mentioned tiger as an example.
I´m a bit skeptical about the idea of adopting the spirit and intent of the species itself,I´m not meaning literally of course.
I suppose the idea of becoming one with the spirit of the creature in question could be considered honorable,and it could offer a psychological boost.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Former castleva
I see.
Could you elaborate on the mindset of a certain animal style?
Besides this,my key point goes (sorry if I did not make it clear enough) whether it is,and how reasonable/"justified" the thing is?
Like,sure they have to be adapted to humans,but how much can you get out of it with a human physique?

Well, for example, the tiger embodies strength and power and in attack is always aggressive. The snake embodies striking speed and accuracy, as well as sinuous movement.

Serpent : well said :)

[Oso]

What joedoe said.

PLUS

extrapolation, which may just be a single word for what joedoe said.


anyway...


The 3 animal forms I have are 'crane', 'tiger' and 'combo' (having elements/moves attributed to the leopard, snake and dragon).

These forms build on each other. Crane emphasizes handwork. Tiger emphasizes power generation and a shifting in and out of range w/ strong but simple deflecting and striking movements and some throws/takedowns. Combo takes the footwork up several notches from leopard and has somewhat more intricate handwork with a fair amount of locking from dragon, and point striking from the snake.

These things could be figured out w/o the correlation to the animal.

My real question is WHY? Why exactly did they look to the animals? If history serves us correctly (which it usually does not) the weapon skills were first: bow, spear etc. So, man had figured out how to efficiently dispatch these animals. Why did they then look to them for martial applications?

There are many simple answers to this question but they just don't really satisfy me.

My understanding is that it wasn't just the Chinese. The Tibetens surely looked at them (hop gar's crane and ape story comes to mind). And a buddy of mine went to a seminar on a native African martial art and they mimicked Lions and Elephants.

good topic if we can keep it here...

[Former castleva]

"My understanding is that it wasn't just the Chinese. The Tibetens surely looked at them (hop gar's crane and ape story comes to mind). And a buddy of mine went to a seminar on a native African martial art and they mimicked Lions and Elephants."

Stuff like elephants serves as an excellent example of something that goes all over my head.
There does not seem to be any connection to take use of whatsoever.Of course,elephants,while calm and wise,can also be furious but unfortunately for us,we are not quite as big.
Someone who knows his/her biology might note that should a human be able to fight like an elephant,laws of nature would require him to turn into a creature resembling it very closely.
If great physical attributes and nature should be what we´re after,one might as well go for dinosaurs.

[Oso]

The only 'elephant' move in any form I have is this:

the hands/arms are in front of the body, parallel to each other and sweep up in front of the upper torso/head in a counterclockwise motion with a flanking cross step, sweeping aside a strike and then sweeping back clockwise with a step out of the cross to a horse for a throw.

the imagery is pretty simple. for me the power is from the torso and wtih the elbows seated into the ribs the translation of power to the arms is pretty direct. just like the power from an elephant's neck would translate to the rigidly fixed tusks.

just my take, of course.

There is a tendancy for animal stylists to be pigeonholed into an appropriately shaped animal:

small compact person = leopard

large person = tiger, dragon

tall skinny person = crane

etc., you get my point.



while a physical affinity towards the animal archetype is beneficial to learning the movements well, I have seen way to many instances of people training to learn a specific set of movements linked to a particular animal and sacrafice any attempt at understanding what the other animals have to teach. If you are an animal stylist you need to understand each of the animals because they impart a lesson that you could use against SOMEONE at somepoint.

while a 140 pounder may not be able to fighter tigerish against a 200 lb person they COULD against a smaller person. A quick person may not be a to utilize snake or leopard against a quicker person but they could against a slower person.

so, anyway, I just realize I was ranting a bit....

don't take the 'animal' bit too seriosly but try to figure out what the lesson is. it's just a metaphor.

[Former castleva]

Thanks.

[Oso]

ok, so what's your insight?

I think there is a point and a usefullness to the animal mimicry (spelled correctly this time) but I'm truly curious about the real why. The legendary answers just don't click for me as a 'truth'

[shaolin kungfu]

Would sumo wrestling be considered elephant style?

[Oso]

it just struck me. the participants in this conversation are Finland, US, and Australia.

FC is up really dang late, I'm going to bed and JD and Serp are just getting of work and going to train, or have a beer (equal odds, imo)


funny place this here internet.

peace and g'night.

[Former castleva]

Does not it all that just appear mysterious Oso? ;)

Yes,I´m up really late.Of course for some,this would be the time to get up...
Have a good night.

As for my insight,
I still cannot honestly say that to observe those animals would necessary,in terms of logic,bring one to a conclusion of their importance for man.
But I´m not dissing it,just curious.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
it just struck me. the participants in this conversation are Finland, US, and Australia.

FC is up really dang late, I'm going to bed and JD and Serp are just getting of work and going to train, or have a beer (equal odds, imo)


funny place this here internet.

peace and g'night.

Not quite! I'm just having my lunch. But I'm thinking that some beer might happen tonight - first night off training for ages. :)

[Oso]

I still cannot honestly say that to observe those animals would necessary,in terms of logic,bring one to a conclusion of their importance for man.
But I´m not dissing it,just curious.

I think that's my point as well. WHY did it strike those old dudes that it WAS important for them to mimic/draw allusions/create metaphors and/or allegory for fighting methods based on animals?

for me at least the proof is in the pudding so to speak but I'm still curious about the origin.




serp, have a nice lunch and drink a beer for me when you get to it as I will just be getting up and having coffee.

had some wicked beer the other night, 'something something "Quad" something" and it was like 12.8 % ABV woohoo!


that's it, done, good night:)

[Chang Style Novice]

Weyerbacher Quad (http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/rate_results/392/1635/)

Thank you for the internet, Al!

[Former castleva]

Attempt to threadjack CSN?

Oso,
yes.That´s pretty interesting.
Appeal to authority of "well,ancient Chinese masters thought it was so cool..." does not exactly "confirm" this.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm just trying to refresh my man Oso's besotted memory.

Anyway, I've only learned one animal form, which was coincidentally an elephant style. I can't help but notice that I'm not the same size as an elephant, have two feet to his four, two arms to his none and no tusks or trunk. So, even if I fight with an "elephant" style, I'm not fighting like an elephant. Elephant style as I know it throws a lot of hooks and elbows, kicks to the knee, twists and turns in the footwork, and grabs people with one hand to punch or elbow them with the other. The last thing is the only elephantish thing I can think of about it. In real life, elephants attack by trampling and charging and goring.

So, I think it's mostly in the name.

[Shuul Vis]

Its nonsense to think you can fight as a tiger or snake, we have not the claws nor the venom. Moreso than the movements of the animal, you are seeking to capture its spirit. If the spirit or essense of the animal moves through your human body, then you understand, not simply because you can mimic claws and fangs.

[Chang Style Novice]

See, that sounds like mystical silliness to me.

[ZIM]

I think it all started something like:

Wang and Yang are facing off. A tiger jumps in and grabs Yang then runs off into the forest. Wang goes "Hey, that was pretty good!"

[Shuul Vis]

Anyone ever heard of "move like a butterfly, sting like a bee" ? This isnt mystical sillyness its metaphor created by kung fu practitioners that also happened to be refined in many other forms of art. So naturally their kung fu would be influenced by thier love of poetry, painting, literature, nature ect. What were they supposed to call the monkey forms, the erratic, deceptive agile forms?

[Chang Style Novice]

Calling the name metaphorical seems a lot less silly than saying you've 'captured the spirit' of the animal your style is named for.

[joedoe]

I know you don't believe in the mystical stuff but I have felt the 'spirit' before for want of a better term. I was once practicing a tiger form and I could literally feel the aggression rising in me, and every move felt like I could tear someone in half. Only time I have felt it, and it was quite amazing.

[Shuul Vis]

I think you are looking too deeply into it. Associating the forms with animals made them easier to understand as well as to convey the forms' concepts to new students. They also helped prime your own mind for what you were trying to accomplish. Maybe the problem is your concept of what i mean by "spirit". To me spirit is simply your being and what flows from that being, be it thought or action. To me spirit isnt mystical its simply who you are at the present moment. Saying you have mastered the spirit of the tiger would simply mean that you understand the mindset of the tiger form and can now take that mindset into any technique you choose.

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, that's easier for me to buy. I'm just trying to avoid falling into some kind of carlos casteneda/animist religion/manimal rerun thing about "I do not merely imitate the moves of the tiger....I BECOME the tiger!"

edit -

or brick hurling mouse, as the case may be.

[Shuul Vis]

Yeah show me someone who can turn into a tiger and ill believe that one, so im with you there. However, a master of the tiger systems might leave an opponent looking like he was mauled by a tiger but thats where the similarities end.

[Chang Style Novice]

My brick throwing style is pretty deadly, though.

[Serpent]

I have a feeling your brick throwing style might defeat my tiger style.

:(

Note to self: Must develop Tiger Catches Hurled Brick technique.

[Chang Style Novice]

The good news is it's pretty easy to catch me without my bricks.

[Shuul Vis]

Nothing can touch the hidden techniques of my "Monkey Hurls Poo" form.

[joedoe]

Fetal fighting is the real street lethal :D

[themeecer]

The vast majority of my forms are animal forms. I have crane, tiger, preying mantis, monkey, leopard, bird, and seen some snake. I think some of you are underestimating the value of our animal forms. First off ... the originators of our styles felt it was important for some reason. To them martial skill was a life or death situation ... for most of us it is normally for sport or health. Even when we are faced with real life situations it is normally not life or death. So for that alone we should rely on the wisdom of our ancestors. Secondly I do believe having the "spirit" of the animal is important. But at times I like to have these "spirits" with me when I do non-animal based forms. Thirdly, even though we don't have the exact appendages of the animals we can learn a lot from them. They fight for survival; if they are not good fighters... they die. The "moves" they use are just as effective to us if we modify them to fit our body. I think it is a shame when I see someone that does great animal forms but when they spar they are only doing basic kicks and punches. If I wanted that I would take TKD or Karate. (No offense to them) There are untold hundreds of hidden applications in our forms if we would just study them and utilize them. For kicks someday ... try sparring and only allow yourself to use moves from one form. If it isn't in there, you can't use it. You will be surprised at the amount of knowledge that is hidden in even the shortest of forms. Also surprising is the effectiveness of the moves many of us have overlooked, myself included.

Originally posted by Former castleva
close ancestry with primates not being mentioned
*smirk*

[Chang Style Novice]

He takes the Adam and Eve story as literal truth - he's that kind of fundamentalist ignoramus.

[shaolin kungfu]

*smirk*

Are you a creationist?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


Are you a creationist?

You haven't been following the SD thread have you? :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
The good news is it's pretty easy to catch me without my bricks.

:D

[shaolin kungfu]

You haven't been following the SD thread have you?

Not really. I'm getting a little tired those topics.




He takes the Adam and Eve story as literal truth - he's that kind of fundamentalist ignoramus.

Are you serious? That's sad.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


Not really. I'm getting a little tired those topics.





Are you serious? That's sad.

Oh, come on now. Just because his beliefs are different to yours doesn't really make it right to call him sad. You never know, he may be right ;).

[Chang Style Novice]

Answers the question "Just how gullible do you have to be to swallow Sin Te's story hook line and sinker?" though.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
To them martial skill was a life or death situation ... for most of us it is normally for sport or health. Even when we are faced with real life situations it is normally not life or death. So for that alone we should rely on the wisdom of our ancestors.


There you have it, folks - blind faith.

Shaolin-Do as kung fu.

Adam & Eve as historical fact.

themeecer as total fool.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
He takes the Adam and Eve story as literal truth - he's that kind of fundamentalist ignoramus.

Yes I am a creationist. It takes me a lot less faith to believe that than what was crammed down our throats in college for all those years. And Chang I will take your comment as a compliment even though you meant it insulting. I was about to say more but in searching for a verse I came upon Proverbs 29:11:

A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards
:D

[Chang Style Novice]

It's a BRONZE AGE FABLE. We've learned a lot in the last 3,000 years. Well, most of us.

[shaolin kungfu]

3000 years? according to many fundamentalists I've spoke with, that's 3/5 the age of the earth.

[Serpent]

In the face of all evidence to the contrary....

It's actually rather sad.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by themeecer


Yes I am a creationist. It takes me a lot less faith to believe that than what was crammed down our throats in college for all those years. And Chang I will take your comment as a compliment even though you meant it insulting. I was about to say more but in searching for a verse I came upon Proverbs 29:11:

:D

Well, horses for courses. Some people find it easier to believe the evolutionary theory.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer


Yes I am a creationist. It takes me a lot less faith to believe that than what was crammed down our throats in college for all those years. And Chang I will take your comment as a compliment even though you meant it insulting.

So, meecer, what do you think of all those dinosaur bones that have been found and scientifically carbon dated?

Did your god put them there for a laugh when he made the earth a few thousand years ago? Just to give us something to do, maybe?

[joedoe]

Well, it may be a fable, but it still does not make it right to make fun of a man for his religious beliefs.

[shaolin kungfu]

Your to tolerant joedoe.:)

All this religious talk has forced me to edit my sig.

[joedoe]

I was brought up in a fairly religious family. I have also been exposed to a lot of different belief systems through the people I have met. When it comes to religion I try to be as respectful of other people's beliefs as I can :)

[themeecer]

So, meecer, what do you think of all those dinosaur bones that have been found and scientifically carbon dated?

Serpent .. you don't want to go down this road. I will eat your lunch. Please tell me you are not relying on carbon dating, the scientific community has found serious flaws in this. At least sound like a credible atheist and pick another dating method that more of them agree on.

Joedoe thanks for sticking up for me. I do appreciate it. Jesus told us that we would be persecuted for his name's sake. And there is no better place to find persecutors than in the so called intellectual elite of the internet.

[shaolin kungfu]

Serpent .. you don't want to go down this road. I will eat your lunch

Surely you meant this some other way?

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Oso

while a 140 pounder may not be able to fighter tigerish against a 200 lb person they COULD against a smaller person. A quick person may not be a to utilize snake or leopard against a quicker person but they could against a slower person.



Aren't there MA styles that overcome that barrier after drilling certain techniques and principles, tactics and strategy? I thought that was one of the facet of MA, that if you're extremely weak, learning MA should give you at least some tools if your opponent is exaggeratingly bigger or quicker than you?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
Serpent .. you don't want to go down this road. I will eat your lunch. Please tell me you are not relying on carbon dating, the scientific community has found serious flaws in this. At least sound like a credible atheist and pick another dating method that more of them agree on.


That's ok - I just had lunch. You can pick through the crumbs on my floor if you like.

OK, forget the carbon dating or any other method for that matter.

Let's just concentrate on the dinosaur bones themselves, seeing as that's the example that first came to mind. How old do you think they are?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by StickyHands


Aren't there MA styles that overcome that barrier after drilling certain techniques and principles, tactics and strategy? I thought that was one of the facet of MA, that if you're extremely weak, learning MA should give you at least some tools if your opponent is exaggeratingly bigger or quicker than you?

That's something of a misconception. Sure, good technique will give you an advantage, but to be really good at kung fu you have to be fit and strong and agile. That's why it's called kung fu - it means hard work.

[shaolin kungfu]

God put dinosaur bones there to test us. The faithful will follow his word andwill not be decieved, while the non-believers will be rooted out and sent to hell.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent


That's something of a misconception. Sure, good technique will give you an advantage, but to be really good at kung fu you have to be fit and strong and agile. That's why it's called kung fu - it means hard work.

I agree. The saying that size doesn't matter is a fallacy. It does matter. What the MAs are supposed to do is help you to overcome that advantage. Same goes for speed, strength etc.

However, you cannot do it without training you own physical attributes first. :)

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Serpent
Let's just concentrate on the dinosaur bones themselves, seeing as that's the example that first came to mind. How old do you think they are?

Serpent ... I am telling you not to go down this road. It is futile anyway. My arguments will beat yours but you will dismiss it. I have been down this road many times. I can use historical evidence, scientific evidence, and even biblical evidence and it won't matter to you. You will deny what I tell you because to you the alternative to evolution is inconceivable, it would change your whole world view. If you really want to pursue this I am not going to waste time retyping or cutting and pasting things that have already been said. For your primer go watch these videos. Creation Videos (http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=real_video) I may not agree with everything that is contained here but that will give you some basics. From there I will give you some more advanced scientific journals to read. Maybe then I will discuss this with you in PMs.

Now get this thread back on topic.

[Shuul Vis]

to quote Bill Hicks...
"And i was asked at the gates of heaven.. did you believe in dinosaurs? Um yes, there were fossils all over the place. And i was met with the reply...Hahaha you fool! That was one of God's easiest jokes. Down to hell with you!
A
H
H
H
H
H
IT SEEMED SO POSSIBLE!!
A
H
H
H
H
H
!
!
!
!


CAN WE NOT TALK ABOUT RELIGION HERE PLEASE? IT DRIVES ME CRAZY TO TALK ABOUT RELIGION. GO TO A RELIGIOUS FORUM. LETS LET EVERYONE BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT AND KEEP IT OFF HERE.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer


Serpent ... I am telling you not to go down this road. It is futile anyway. My arguments will beat yours but you will dismiss it. I have been down this road many times. I can use historical evidence, scientific evidence, and even biblical evidence and it won't matter to you. You will deny what I tell you because to you the alternative to evolution is inconceivable, it would change your whole world view. If you really want to pursue this I am not going to waste time retyping or cutting and pasting things that have already been said. For your primer go watch these videos. Creation Videos (http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=real_video) I may not agree with everything that is contained here but that will give you some basics. From there I will give you some more advanced scientific journals to read. Maybe then I will discuss this with you in PMs.

Now get this thread back on topic.

Way to avoid the subject there, meecer. You're assuming I have no knowledge of your side of the argument and you just tell me to go and watch videos and read journals and then maybe you'll talk to me?

You realise that everything you've said above could just as easily apply the other way if I was simply not going to accept any other truth. You're projecting yourself right there.

You're an idiot.

[shaolin kungfu]

Seriously serpent, watch one of those videos. They're pretty funny.

I liked how the guy said that people who dont believe in creationism believe that man is god.

[Shuul Vis]

Please stop talking about religion guys. Instead post on my Shuul's Technique Talk Part 3 topic. :)

[shaolin kungfu]

I'll make a new thread and try to move it there.

[Serpent]

With respect to Shuul and because themeecer is just a complete tool (good grief, have I resorted to name-calling?! :eek: ) I'm not going to go into this any more on this thread. themeecer doesn't have the balls to talk about it anyway.

Let's stick to the topic.

[shaolin kungfu]

I made a new thread if anyone wants to continue

[themeecer]

Whatever .. I'm an idiot then. I'm not going to waste my time on you. I have much much better things to do than waste my time on a spiteful, hateful person like you. You have shown your colors on here time and time again, during my short stay. I am leaving now to go hang out with real life friends .. you stay and play with your virtual ones.

[Shuul Vis]

Thanks man that means alot. I get really worked up about religion and it can take weeks or longer for me to get back to normal. I had a mental breakdown a while ago when i was intensely questioning my beliefs and kind of went into la la land so im trying to get my feet back on the ground. So thanks again.

[Shuul Vis]

GOD****IT THEMEECER! you have to get the last word in dont you!!!!!! just go pray for him or something. Or go post about kung fu somewhere.

[shaolin kungfu]

Or maybe rethink your sig lines accuracy.:p

[Serpent]

Back on topic, do you think that the insect based styles are as valid as the mammal based ones?

Can we get inside the spirit of the mantis as well as we can get inside the tiger, for example?

[Brad]

Ok, the last serious post before this went waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic:


Re: Do "animal styles" make sense?
The vast majority of my forms are animal forms. I have crane, tiger, preying mantis, monkey, leopard, bird, and seen some snake. I think some of you are underestimating the value of our animal forms. First off ... the originators of our styles felt it was important for some reason. To them martial skill was a life or death situation ... for most of us it is normally for sport or health. [QUOTE]Even when we are faced with real life situations it is normally not life or death. So for that alone we should rely on the wisdom of our ancestors. Secondly I do believe having the "spirit" of the animal is important. But at times I like to have these "spirits" with me when I do non-animal based forms. Thirdly, even though we don't have the exact appendages of the animals we can learn a lot from them. They fight for survival; if they are not good fighters... they die. The "moves" they use are just as effective to us if we modify them to fit our body. I think it is a shame when I see someone that does great animal forms but when they spar they are only doing basic kicks and punches. If I wanted that I would take TKD or Karate. (No offense to them) There are untold hundreds of hidden applications in our forms if we would just study them and utilize them. For kicks someday ... try sparring and only allow yourself to use moves from one form. If it isn't in there, you can't use it. You will be surprised at the amount of knowledge that is hidden in even the shortest of forms. Also surprising is the effectiveness of the moves many of us have overlooked, myself included.

[Shuul Vis]

Serpent,
To me, we cant get into the mantis in the same way. But we can get into what our perceptions of the mantis spirit are as we imagine them. It goes back to what i was saying earlier, that the animal association was a over all name that helped reference the qualities of the form.

[Oso]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Oso

while a 140 pounder may not be able to fighter tigerish against a 200 lb person they COULD against a smaller person. A quick person may not be a to utilize snake or leopard against a quicker person but they could against a slower person.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Aren't there MA styles that overcome that barrier after drilling certain techniques and principles, tactics and strategy? I thought that was one of the facet of MA, that if you're extremely weak, learning MA should give you at least some tools if your opponent is exaggeratingly bigger or quicker than you?



My point was more that if you are an animal stylist, in this case the traditional 5, you should learn all aspects of each animal.

If two people learn snake (fast, accurate striking) the naturally faster person will be somewhat better at it and if the two were to square off and just use their dreaded snake style; the faster guy would win.

Some body types DO fit specific animal concepts better. Just don't lock yourself into the ones that fit you best because you will be able to apply the others in the right circumstances.

fwiw, I have worn tiger claw strikes that looked like I had been raked by a big cat. just no broken skin.

but, I'm also currrently wearing a fashionable bruise that looks like the Crab Nebula. Was this from a rare Celestial Stylist? Nope, just a plain old boxer with really fast hands. I doubt he has ever thought about snake or any other animal.



CSN, that was it. They had another one that they had not tapped that was in the 20% range but didn't have a free tap.
Interestingly enough, by VA law, they could have only served me one of those beers in a single night. At least they can have that kind of beer. Here in NC if the beer is higher than 5.9 % ABV it must be labeled as 'malt liquor'. So, the high end beer crafters won't distribute here because they don't want that 'appelation' on their label. So, we don't get to have any.:(

[chen zhen]

I don't know if Xingyi has been mentioned, i'm too lazy to read the whole thread. But here goes; The xingyi animal styles is not based on animal-imitation, it is more based on using the essence/tactics of the animal in focus. Like the tiger, when you do the tiger-form in xingyi, you do this diagonal step to the side, and then halt the step and move the head in direction of the next strike. here you have to think the way the tiger is hunting it's prey, where it has to be vigilant and attentive in every movement. The way you look is also based on the tiger's way of thought (xingyi-quan means "form-mind boxing after all), because the tiger does'nt focus on one point, but has a periferal vision, where it just dwells on everything in sight, while being attentive on everything. That is valuable in combat, where you have to be attentive of any strike that comes against you, without dwelling on a special strike ( which could result in not being attentive of the next strike..)
The tiger also hides in the tall grass, relaxed, while being unseen, and then suddenly, in a fast, powerful leap, it jumps the deer that is closest, and ends the deer's life as quickly as possible. That is also a metaphorical way of using the tiger's essence in combat.
Hope it helps.:)

[Former castleva]

Thanks...

But I really have to say GUUUUYYS!!! Let´s not make this another religion thread,pleeaase,that has happened already on KFO.

Again,thank you.

[Judge Pen]

No it's not a religious post. . .

Did the animal fighting forms come before or after the animal training forms? I agree they are a metaphor for different fighting styles in different situations. The five animal training (live, dead, and qigong) mimics the movements and attitudes of different animals to develop flexibility, strength, and chi. These are not fighting based exercises although they are used to train us to be better fighters when studied along with our martial techniques. I was wondering if these exercises pre-dated say hsing-i animals or the traditional five animal form?

[BeiTangLang]

You need techniques before you have a system; A system before you can have forms; a system that works & has forms before you can effectively train others (ie "training forms").
Just my opinion.
~BTL

[chen zhen]

JP; taoists have used the 12 animals as different religious symbols, and have used them in their qigong-systems thousands of years ago. so yeah, it predates the animal-imitating fighting-styles.

FC; how has this developed into a religious discussion? what do you mean?:confused:

[Former castleva]

"FC; how has this developed into a religious discussion? what do you mean?"

It´s better already.

[Chang Style Novice]

BTL's making some sense there. Although I have no doubt that observing animals has inspired people to adapt the animal movements and strategies for their own use, I don't see any way around the fact that most of these critters are too unlike us to leave much similarity in the final result of those adaptations.

[Former castleva]

CSN,
That´s what I´m still thinking about.
How much is lost in the "translation".

[Chang Style Novice]

Nothing worth saving, I'd bet.

[ZIM]

It's nearly a universal thing. Except for perhaps the middle East, you can find 'animal based' traditions all over, including Europe [Scandinavia being the most famous for the 'berserk' or 'bear-skinned']. The systems should be unsurprising. That they are useful is just better.

There's two ways to look at it: copy the moves [praying mantis seems to have developed that way] or copy the spirit [like the berserker above, or hsingyi] then both combined. You find it in animist religions, shamanism, folk dances, martial traditions, war dances, blah blah. It goes back to the Neolithic cave days in France. Thousands of years of evolution at your disposal. Use it.

The martial traditions that we study tended to originate in Mountainous or Forested regions- there's lots of critters they saw every day and they respected their abilities. No big whoop. No, I am not verklempt. Oy!

[African Tiger]

NOT A RELIGIOUS THREAD???? Gosh, golly, gee wiz. After all the Bush bashing and other OT threads (ad nauseam), I thought for sure we could get some ol' time religion up in here.

I'll be brief: Jesus is cool, Satan sucks the big one. :D :D :D

[No_Know]

"Sure those animals can be all effective and even graceful in terms of backing themselves up,but that´s what they have perfectly adapted to do.Is it logical to conclude that since a tiger as an example (or even a purely mythological dragon) is strong for it´s needs,we should imitate it (with great modification of course) ? Not to even mention an insect.
Well?"

When you want T'ai Chi Ch'uan one looks not to the neighborhood recreation center~ but to The Chen Village in China. You want to be fierce, you look to a tiger. You want to be strong, you look to the being which lifts upwards of hundreds of times it own body weight. This seems logical.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Serpent


That's something of a misconception. Sure, good technique will give you an advantage, but to be really good at kung fu you have to be fit and strong and agile. That's why it's called kung fu - it means hard work.

Yes I agree, but what I was aiming for was those 60 year old internalists, or forget about internalist, those 60 year old CMA masters who still train and teach, they are scrawny, shriveled, and definitely not strong or quick as a heavyweight Sanda champion. Yet they are able to hold their grounds and beat up these amateurs (champions) fairly quick. Well, at least so the stories say. But anyway, that's what I meant that there are styles which will provide you with these tools to improve rather than just being inherent to being strong and quick.

[Former castleva]

"When you want T'ai Chi Ch'uan one looks not to the neighborhood recreation center~ but to The Chen Village in China. You want to be fierce, you look to a tiger. You want to be strong, you look to the being which lifts upwards of hundreds of times it own body weight. This seems logical."

I´m not sure if I understand.
Looking at a tiger to be fierce? Can we lift upwards such weight (in comparative terms)?


CSN,
Are you saying they´re useles then?

I still cannot say.

[Chang Style Novice]

No, I'm saying that whatever masters took from the animals is the good stuff for humans. What they left isn't going benefit us at all. I trust that these guys were pretty pragmatic.

[Former castleva]

Just wondering...
http://www.oaklandzoo.org/atoz/azchimp.html

[Oso]

"species: troglodyte"

FC, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't troglodyte mean 'cave liver" ??? my greek ain't what it used to be.



CSN, I think you have it, the old masters took what was useful to humans, be it intent or physical aptitude or what have you. Methinks mebbe that the animal bit may gone the way of tai chi in the western world: us round-eyes making more of it than it is and embellishing the reality quite a bit.

I'll say it again: metaphor.

[Former castleva]

Oso,
Your greek is likely to be better than mine.
See;
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=troglodyte

Metaphor,metaphor...gotta get familiar with that.

[chen zhen]

U don't know the word metaphor?!

That strikes me as odd, when it comes from you.:confused:

[Oso]

the only Greek I know came from what bit of science terminology I picked up from 4 years of caving. but most of it was greek and my def for troglodyte was '1a' on the page so I feel ok about that.


ya, learn the lesson, apply it to yourself, move on.

'Animal Style Hippies' are as bad as 'tai chi hippies':D

[Chang Style Novice]

Underwater big-ass catfish grappling style (http://www.okienoodling.com/trailer.html)

Must be seen to be believed!

[Oso]

that was sweeeet !!

considering that a lot of prime catfish water is also prime water moccasin territory you will not find me doing that crap.

but props to them.

[Chang Style Novice]

Rent the DVD if you can find it. It's totally nuts. And yeah, the water moccassin issue is brought up. They show some of the stripey b@stards comin' close to the noodlers.

edit - Plus, now you know what Master Killer does when he's not surfing the KFM forums!

[No_Know]

"I´m not sure if I understand.
Looking at a tiger to be fierce? Can we lift upwards such weight (in comparative terms)?"

When you want an education you try to attend the best schools for what you want to study. Not many creatures seek tigers to mess with them. If I want to be feared/respected/not messed with I might look to tigers who are not messed with. I might presume that they are good fighters for the same reason, they are not messed with (because the other animals know from experience that if you face a tiger you do not survive often. Animal nature is survival. Animals that want to stay alive leave tigers alone.

Can we study something that can lift hundreds of times it's weight and with understanding lift hundreds of times our weight? Possiblly not. Part of their success might be considered to be their design. But it might be mechanics. And if we can understand the mechanics of their efficiency we might be able to apply them to not lift hundreds of times our own body weight, but to lift more weight than if we do not use the same mechanics as do insects.

[ZIM]

I was thinking of a slightly amusing thought experiment, esp. for the hsingyi ppl, but anyone can play. ;)

WRT the berserker example I brought up previously, if I handed you a selection of Viking weapons, which animal style would you use for each? OTOH, if you don't use animal styles, how would you use them?

The weapons are:
Double handed battleaxe [weighted like a sledgehammer]
Longsword
Single handed warhammer
Throwing axe
Dagger, 1 foot long
Spiked shield

I'm wondering if there will not be substantial agreement in usage. No, I will not give you hallucinogenic shrooms to go with them...

[No_Know]

"Like,sure they have to be adapted to humans,but how much can you get out of it with a human physique?"

Not actual, But communicates animal relation to Human physique: Animal to Human= paw/palm heel; toes/palm close to fingers; claws/fingers; joint at body and front limb/shoulder; joint at body and hind limb/hip; front limb second joint from body/elbow;hind (rear) limb second joint from body/knee...

insect claw/hand to forearm; elephant trunk/whole arm movement with fist; elephant tusk/uppercut; elephant leg workings/strong sweeping angled or sideways kick (strong step or stance)...

"As for my insight,
I still cannot honestly say that to observe those animals would necessary,in terms of logic,bring one to a conclusion of their importance for man. But I´m not dissing it,just curious."

When teams/sports players want to feel more aggressive they might growl. It seems dogs might be said to growl when about to attack or willing to defend strongly. Humans have speech. They do not need animal sounds to convey thoughts. However, some animal sounds seem to have been adopted to increase human performance at key moments. Guerilla units, covert units from native American Indians to I No_Know; it has been my understanding that such people have used bird sounds to communicate when hunting or operating in forests or perhaps the jungle.

"...to observe those animals...to a conclusion of their importance for man..."



"I think that's my point as well. WHY did it strike those old dudes that it WAS important for them to mimic/draw allusions/create metaphors and/or allegory for fighting methods based on animals?

for me at least the proof is in the pudding so to speak but I'm still curious about the origin."

Humans survived by running and hiding. Children in every culture enjoy these intrinsic Human survival skills. Fighting seems an adaptation by observation of what did the best killing or was the best defending or was the most threatening. It would make sense to mimic those. Even if Humans made spears or knives they seemed to hunt in groups. This suggests that even with weapons animals were more efficient. And a single creature was more than a single armed (weapon carrying Human) could usually beat. So if as was mentioned that Humans made spears an knives. And they also mimiced animals. It took more than having a single powerful tool to survive against a being with greater physical traits than Humans. The only source to learn the superior to Human Animalness physical and mental was to study the Masters. Mimicry is a beginning form of study.

"Although I have no doubt that observing animals has inspired people to adapt the animal movements and strategies for their own use, I don't see any way around the fact that most of these critters are too unlike us to leave much similarity in the final result of those adaptations."

Refer to the earlier part of this post.

Poke at a cat it paws at your finger in Hung gar style towards centerline. Fingers closed is I do not want to hurt you but stop. Fingers spread and bent is claws. As felines house cat or tiger, the hand position can change to match intent.

We are as snakes at our ribcage. Kangaroos and gorillas use their four limbs on the ground yet can sometimes be seen to be on the hind limbs. Humans are not as isolated in environment as these animals. And have found primary hindleg support most universally beneficial.

"...to observe those animals...to a conclusion of their importance for man..."

Humans are not birds, yet we fly (airplanes). Humans are not flying squirrels yet we glide (parachutes, gliders). Humans are not birds flying into the wind yet we soar (parasailing). Humans are not on their own faster than cheetahs. Yet we can go faster than seventy-five miles per hour. Humans are not snails nor hermit crabs yet we travel in shells for protection (cars, tanks). Humans are not whales yet we can dive hundreds of feet (submarines). Humans are not fish yet we can breathe underwater (weighted animal skins, SCUBA). Humans are not beavers yet we build dams. Humans are not bears yet we can withstand extended exposure to cold desert cold (coats, clothes thremal underwear, socks, boots, earmuffs, scarves, goggles, hats, hood, parka, gloves, mitts...). Humans are not pea****s yet male Humans make dramatic displays to gain the favor of a female Human...

What some call spirit, others might understand as attitude. As one thinks so one is~ Think you are a failure you are more likely to fail. Think, "I'm a fish" you might swim better or increase your will to do what you think of fish (fish swim). It's a mental enhancer to focus one on the task at hand.

[MasterKiller]

edit - Plus, now you know what Master Killer does when he's not surfing the KFM forums! Interestingly enough, there was a water mocassin in my pool yesterday. Took me nearly an hour to get it out without going Jeff Corwin on him.

[Former castleva]

Thanks everyone.

[Oso]

no shrooms, no game.

[TonyM.]

Why do I hear Bing singing "You could be swinging on a star"? Oh, maybe I got the shrooms.