Somethin i wrote up for anti-grapplin folks

[Brad Souders]

F*CK IT

Brad Souders

[Ging Mo Fighter]

Think about how much "mixed martial arts" would change if the eyes and groin were made a valid target?

one good hit to the eyes, and it doesnt matter if your tito ortiz, you cant make your eyes tough!

[Serpent]

Oh dear.

Here we go again.

[shaolin kungfu]

While you can not make your eyes hard, you can make you groin hard. Just look at master tu.

[Merryprankster]

Think about how much "mixed martial arts" would change if the eyes and groin were made a valid target?

Actually, the groin was a valid target in earlier incarnations, and still is in some places overseas. I will note that the only person I ever saw succumb to groin shots was Joe Son--a person of questionable ability.

As for the rest Ging Mo, two thumbs down. True, in and of itself, but hardly "the answer."

BTW, I believe Brad was writing "anti-grappling," as in "how to counter grappling," not ANTI-grappling :D

[TaoBoy]

I've been hiding for months, I come back and we're still talking the same old sh!t.

Maybe I should leave it another few months.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
one good hit to the eyes, and it doesnt matter if your tito ortiz, you cant make your eyes tough!

Eye and groin hits are not the sure thing that most people think they are. Yes, there is a possiblity that you might stop someone with an eye or groin shot. However, when the adrenaline is flowing, it's not likely.

I have received both eye and groin shots that were serious enough to put me in the hospital. However, during the time of the fight, they had almost no effect.

[chen zhen]

CMA people always talk about how they would have an edge if eye shots, groin kicks, pinching, etc was legal in competition. But they just forget that the MMA fighters also will be able to do these things, and then they will lose anyway.
Just an observation.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
Think about how much "mixed martial arts" would change if the eyes and groin were made a valid target?

one good hit to the eyes, and it doesnt matter if your tito ortiz, you cant make your eyes tough!

Actually, I talked to Royce about this the last time I saw him (seriously) He told me that eye gouges were legal in the early tournies. You would get a penalty, but would be allowed to continue. So, if I eye gouged someone and he couldn't fight anymore, I'd get penalized, bit I'd still win because he couldn't continue.

However, think about it seriously... the grappler is actually the one who would benefit most from using an eye gouge. the striker will have to worry about head movement, blocking, etc. - it's hard to hit the eyes of a moving opponent who doesn't want you to hit them. If the grappler has you on the ground and contained, your movement is limited, and he is much closer to you, making it easier for him to gouge your eyes.

Bad troll attempt, by the way...

[Royal Dragon]

MMA fighters also will be able to do these things, and then they will lose anyway.

Reply]
What do MMA guys do that is so different than us anyway? They work striking, we work striking, they work throws & take downs we work throws & take downs. They fight inside, we fight inside. We learn about distance, timming and footwork, they learn about distance timming and footwork. We do cardio, they do cardio, we do strength & flexibility work, they do strength and flexibility work. We condition, they condition, They ground fight, we ground fight.

Now granted, our version of "Ground Fight" is often not much more than a full weighted kneed drop to an easily breakable area generally taking advantage of the momentum of the throw followed by a couple of follow up strikes and bouncing back to our feet asap, and they prefer to be gentile about it and choose to go for submissions instead of brutal mamings like we do, but still all the elements are there in both games. I think it's the fighter personally, and how hard and extensively he trained.

[Merryprankster]

I'd hardly call what Mark Kerr used to do to people "genteel"

[red5angel]

groin shots are probably one of the most overrated strikes in the game. A little adrenaline goes a long way towards making groin shots a null point.


Brad, good stuff, however I believe you could have stuck with the first paragraph and had an excellent point. The rest is just icing on the cake.

[Suntzu]

Brad does all that work and get burried by an 'eye gouge'… KFO at its finest…

[norther practitioner]

Good article Brad... I don't know if I completely agree with you on all points, but I like the general gist thus far and the examples using fighters.

RD, there training contains a lot of what others do, but how they do it is usually different, getting them someplace else in a different amount of time so to speak.

[Royal Dragon]

I'd hardly call what Mark Kerr used to do to people "genteel"

Reply]
How many of his opponents ended up with crushed lower rib cages, broken necks or dammaged Kidneys? Kung Fu ground work, works by maiming the opponent. if you don't go that far, then it's like you did nothing at all. It's like a bullet in a gun, if you aim, but don't pull the trigger, it doesn't work. If you were to follow through fully, your going to main people, and noone wants to do that. The fighters don't want to injure thier opponents that severly, the promoters don't want it so much most competitons outlaw intentionally hurting your opponent, and the spectators will cry foul and accuse the guy doing the maiming of having bad "Sportsmanship" or out right cheating.

Seriously, Mark Kerr, may have used quite a few "Pain" submissions in his day, and possibly accidentally broke an elbow on rare occasion, but his techniques are designed to submitt, NOT break, and maim. Kung Fu is desgned to crush, maim and break.

[red5angel]

I sense a sport vs reality thing coming on....

For me personally it is just about context. If you are training for a sport then you should train apropriately, same with "reality". Either way I don't think either category is excludes the possibilities in striking or ground work.

[Brad Souders]

My friend to make this a complete have nothing to do with the topic u should have thrown in about multiple attackers.

Everyone from a "pro" fighter to your average street thug knows how to hit the nuts and eye gouge. U act like these weapons are secret techniques. When i waz reading my rules of street fighting hand book last night they even showed a drunk slob eye gouging someone as he fell into him.

A few minor adjustments in training for a "mma" guy would fix problems like these. Turn the hip sideways when clinching limits groin shots. When clinching keep your head high and near the opponents neck to limit his reach on your eye level.

Hell i have no idea what this has to do with my article but i'm always up for good discussion.

Tonight i'll create a thread on a bar fight i had a couple months ago and i want everyone to analyze and discussion the event so we can all learn from mistakes i already know happened.

Later, Brad

[Suntzu]

Hell i have no idea what this has to do with my article ... u been here long enuff... you should know better...

[Merryprankster]

OK RD, whatever you say.

Rent an IVT with Mark Kerr in it.

Kung Fu is brutal blahblahblah.

Yah happy?

[Royal Dragon]

Merryprankster,
You got it wrong, I'm not saying "Kung Fu is brutal Ha ha ha ha haaaa (Evil laugh)", I'm saying MMA ground fighting is NOT brutal.

Injuries are rare, and usually minor. It's all Pain compliance stuff from some sort of pin. It's a submission because it "Hurts" to much to continue, or your "Afraid" of a potential injury, NOT a failure to continue because your too damm busted up to function anymore because some guy just did a full weighted knee drop on your lower rib cage and caved it in thus puncturing your right lung after throwing you down hard enough on the concret to knock the wind out of you.

THAT is the difference between real Kung Fu and MMA. Intentionally maiming your opponent is pretty much illegal in any event, but just a matter of not holding back so much in a real fight if your trained in a legit Kung Fu system.

[Chang Style Novice]

RD - You never saw one of those clips of Mark Kerr kneeing a guy in the head on the ground repeatedly? Another good example of the "non-brutal" groundfighting found in MMA is the Don Frye-Amaury Bitetti fight. It was awful watching the last couple minutes of that. I kept on saying to the TV - "Stop the fight! The guy isn't doing anything but covering up! Stop the fight!"

[Royal Dragon]

How many severly injured were there? did they require emergency surgery after the fight? What are the stats on severly injured MMA fighters?

How often do you guys have to rush a fighter to the hospital to save him form dying because his ribs were collapesd into his lungs?

kneeling on a guys head is'nt the same as throwing him hard enough to knock the wind out of him, and doing a full weighted knee drop on the side of his head or neck. Infact, kneeling down is how we safetly train the technique. It's actually easier to let the momentum pull you inot the drop.

I don't care how "Ugly" MMA fights get, the injury rate is still really low, because it's not really very brutal. It's just scarry and painful. They are still bound by both human dignity, honor, and the RULES to try NOT to intentionally main eachother. That rule ensures a lack of brutality, reguardless of how "ugly " it is.

Anyway, it does not matter, just so long as you know I meant to say "MMA ground fighting is not brutal" instead of saying "Kung Fu ground fighting is too brutal for the ring."

[Merryprankster]

I don't care how "Ugly" MMA fights get, the injury rate is still really low, because it's not really very brutal. It's just scarry and painful. They are still bound by both human dignity, honor, and the RULES to try NOT to intentionally main eachother. That rule ensures a lack of brutality, reguardless of how "ugly " it is.

Ah. The sign of a non-competitor.

You are there to do everything possible within the rules to hurt your opponent. The REFEREE ensures that things don't get out of hand, and that the injury rate remains low. If you don't think a fighter would continue beating the crap out of somebody until they are unconcious or something breaks, you've GOT NO idea. I guarentee you that Vanderlei, Mark Coleman, Frye, etc, won't stop kick****ing a guy until they can't get up or the ref says its over.

I have popped a couple guy's arms in tournaments because they refused to tap and the ref didn't step in in time. I would have kept going too, despite the pop.

Rhadi has a little speech he gives "The other guy's face is his responsibility." Same thing here.

Let me say it again--most fighters are there to cause as much damage as possible, rendering the opponent no longer able to continue. The REFEREE is the person that keeps it from going to the emergency room (and then, not always).

Nevermind. I'm arguing with a brick wall.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Injuries are rare, and usually minor. It's all Pain compliance stuff from some sort of pin.

Tell that to all of the grapplers who have had popped arms, legs, etc. Simple fact is injuries WILL happen, unless you're not really training. and what happens when you are in the street where you don't give a d@mn about someone tapping? broken limbs are brutal in my book.

It's a submission because it "Hurts" to much to continue, or your "Afraid" of a potential injury, NOT a failure to continue because your too damm busted up to function anymore because some guy just did a full weighted knee drop on your lower rib cage and caved it in thus puncturing your right lung after throwing you down hard enough on the concret to knock the wind out of you.

Once again, tell that to the grapplers who have had competitions stopped due to injuries. And where are these brutal kung fu tournies?


THAT is the difference between real Kung Fu and MMA. Intentionally maiming your opponent is pretty much illegal in any event, but just a matter of not holding back so much in a real fight if your trained in a legit Kung Fu system.

you hope to not hold back, but yet when you train, you pull punches, don't fully strike your target areas, etc... How will that make you more brutal than the MMA guy? At least he's not pulling punches all the time. they grapple all out. The nature of grappling allows them to slow down AFTER they've gone full out to get the sub that they got. grapplers really fight, compete, etc. like they train - not all MA can say that. I'll stop my comments on that above quote right there, because I don't wanna take the blame for starting a style war.

[Royal Dragon]

You people aren't getting this are you.


Injuries are rare, and usually minor. It's all Pain compliance stuff from some sort of pin.

Tell that to all of the grapplers who have had popped arms, legs, etc. Simple fact is injuries WILL happen, unless you're not really training. and what happens when you are in the street where you don't give a d@mn about someone tapping? broken limbs are brutal in my book.

Reply]
The street is not the issue here. And if it were, the LAST place you want to be is tied up un the concrete trying to "Submit" a guy. The Kung Fu Ground wold be more accurate, it's quick and eficient, and it keeps you on your feet so it's easier to deal wiht his reinforcments.


It's a submission because it "Hurts" to much to continue, or your "Afraid" of a potential injury, NOT a failure to continue because your too damm busted up to function anymore because some guy just did a full weighted knee drop on your lower rib cage and caved it in thus puncturing your right lung after throwing you down hard enough on the concret to knock the wind out of you.

Once again, tell that to the grapplers who have had competitions stopped due to injuries. And where are these brutal kung fu tournies?

Reply]
I don't know, have not seen too many fights stopped due to injury. It does happen, but most end in a submission where the loser just tapps out. Infact that's the most common occurance.


THAT is the difference between real Kung Fu and MMA. Intentionally maiming your opponent is pretty much illegal in any event, but just a matter of not holding back so much in a real fight if your trained in a legit Kung Fu system.

you hope to not hold back, but yet when you train, you pull punches, don't fully strike your target areas, etc... How will that make you more brutal than the MMA guy?

Reply]
It's irrelevant to the argument. MMA's Ground fighting is not brutal, it's a humane way of figthing in the ring designed to minimise dammage. Kung Fu ground fighting is designed to maim asap and is considerably more brutal than MMA's Ground which is desgned to force a submission. Infatc, we don't even use it in our own tournies, for that very reason.

At least he's not pulling punches all the time. they grapple all out. The nature of grappling allows them to slow down AFTER they've gone full out to get the sub that they got. grapplers really fight, compete, etc. like they train - not all MA can say that. I'll stop my comments on that above quote right there, because I don't wanna take the blame for starting a style war.

Reply]
Training styles are irrelevant to the argument as it does not address the general design and intent of the systems. MMA uses a much more humane ground system based on *Pain* compliance and fear of injury to force submissions. Kung Fu's ground just breaks an opponent as much as possible with little considerationfor the opponents well being. MMA Ground seeks to make the opponent *Give Up*, Kung Fu Ground seeks to cripple them so they can't continue on even if they wanted to.

[Merryprankster]

I reiterate:

See Kerr in an IVT.

See Silva vs. Sakuraba.

See Coleman vs. Allan Goes.

See Igor Vovchanchin vs. Enson Inoue.


These are just the ones off the top of my head where a brutal beatdown was delivered. Kerr pounded his opponents into a bloody mass. Sliva soccer kicked and bootstomped Saku into a ref stoppage. Coleman kneed Goes until he was unconcious, and Vovchanchin beat on Inoue so badly he couldn't crawl back to his corner.

Finally, what you term "pain compliance" isn't "pain compliance." It's tap or it breaks. I hardly consider joint breakage to be "pain compliance." Pain compliance is more like LE come-alongs. The ground fighting is DESIGNED to break joints, pound you unconcious or make you sleep with a choke. The fact that they allow people to tap out or have a ref stoppage is just a nicety. In the street, I ain't stopping till I know the other guy is broken and OOC, any more than you or a KF fighter would or would be allowed to just tee off on somebody's face and ribs repeatedly when it's clear they're done, in a sportive context.

I'd say you're the one not getting it.

[red5angel]

grappling is for suckas!!!!;)

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon,


You people aren't getting this are you.

You people. Nice.

"Elitism. Table for one."


The street is not the issue here. And if it were, the LAST place you want to be is tied up un the concrete trying to "Submit" a guy. The Kung Fu Ground wold be more accurate, it's quick and eficient, and it keeps you on your feet so it's easier to deal wiht his reinforcments.

Here's the problem I consistently have with this argument: Nobody's claiming that going to the ground is ideal against multiple opponents, in an alley, etc. Just that it happens. Or are you suggesting that there's little chance of you ending up on your arse when you're outnumbered?

Again, the question is not whether it's advisable. Only whether it's likely.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

I don't get why this argument persists to be honest, especially on this form where it has been submitted and punched to death a few times.

I think we should have a rule on KFO. If you want to make a blanket statement about an art, of any kind and any range, you should have to go out and prove your point. Get together with some of those _____ and see if what you are saying really holds true. Let's say a minimum of 6 different practictioners of varying levels that should give you a good idea of who you are dealing with. If there are kultiple schools of _____ in your area I say hit a couple of them.
This week I have a sparring match with a guy from a popular TKD school in the area because while everyone is badmouthing TKD I have a feeling it isn't as slouch an art as people are thinking.

[apoweyn]

Well said, red5.

And, needless to say, we'll all be interested in hearing how the sparring match goes. (Especially me, being a former taekwondoka myself.)


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

Also I should mention you should provide pictures or something to back it up.
Ap, no problem, he and I are getting together on friday night at my house to mix it up a little. He seems like a cool guy and when I brought up sparring he jumped right on it so it should be a good experience.

[Ray Pina]

I guess I would fall under the "kung fu" label, but hell, I have a ton of respect for MMA guys. These guys are capable of causing a ton of damage, as much as they want/are allowed to do.

By the same token, I can't think of a time I saw someone taken out on a stretcher from a kung fu tournament. Get this: the most brutal tournament I've been in recently? Tae Kwon Do believe it or not. The first heavy weight fight a second dregree black belt walked right into a front kick and cought it with his face. Down and out. The kicker was off balance and everything, but it did its job.

As a kung fu guy it was rough playing by their rules too: no punching the face, no trapping the hands, no striking the kicking leg or supporting leg, no takedowns. Needles to say I was disqualified. But not after putting the guy down about five times and catching a cresent kick with my collar bone. Could I have ended the "fight" after the first exchange? Absolutely. I had his arms pinned and punching the hell out of his stupid red dot on the side of his mandatory gear (that would have been his jaw). But I couldn't end the MATCH. The ref broke it as I drove him out of the ring and penalized me for "holding."

Don't confuse competiton with all out ass kicking. But I have to say the line between the two looks very slim in those reality fights. Thus the name I guess.

[ewallace]

MMA uses a much more humane ground system based on *Pain* compliance and fear of injury to force submissions. Kung Fu's ground just breaks an opponent as much as possible with little considerationfor the opponents well being. MMA Ground seeks to make the opponent *Give Up*, Kung Fu Ground seeks to cripple them so they can't continue on even if they wanted to.

When is this practiced? Are training parters getting broken ribs, punctured lungs and the like? Why would it be any different for a "Kung Fu" fighter, who doesn't actually go thru with the movements in practice, and a MMA fighter, who stops the movement when the opponent taps?

[weightvest]

I mean the thing is, it all really depends on your environment.

Remember, the old style kungfu which is rarely about these days (literally only a handful of people with that skill and knowledge) was designed purely with the saying of "if my first hit doesn't kill you, the second one will". It wasn't about messing about. Grappler wouldn't stand a chance.

But you also have to remember two very important ket factors:

1) What are the chances someone with that skill and knowledge is going to confront you?

2) Ring fighting is a totally different story all together.

All this talk of these fighters, like Royce and whoever, wouldn't stand a chance against some of the "frail old men" that exist in China. I certainly know of a few aged T'ai Chi Grandmasters who would knock their blocks off (and contrary to popular belief, T'ai Chi is very much a stirking art as much as it is a disrupting art.)

BUT these arts they study, and the way they practise, and very valid for our type of society! I would most certainly put my money down on the fact no-one in our world has the skill to use a phoenix eye to literally burst the heart, or other vital organ.

My only real qualm about the whole grappling thing is, well, why on Earth do people like going to ground? That's the last place I want to be. I certainly don't want to be using up my hands holding the person, because what then do I use to stop him making a quick crack at my temple and killing me? It's all too much of a show of strength to me rather than fighting. really, honestly, you want the fight to end as quickly and effortlessly as possible: "If my first hit doesn't kill you the second one will".

And in the glorious way of going full circle "How many people can actually do that?" Thus grappling is as valid in our day as any other thing.

[Oso]

As a kung fu guy it was rough playing by their rules too: no punching the face, no trapping the hands, no striking the kicking leg or supporting leg, no takedowns. Needles to say I was disqualified. But not after putting the guy down about five times and catching a cresent kick with my collar bone. Could I have ended the "fight" after the first exchange? Absolutely. I had his arms pinned and punching the hell out of his stupid red dot on the side of his mandatory gear (that would have been his jaw). But I couldn't end the MATCH. The ref broke it as I drove him out of the ring and penalized me for "holding."

LOL

I hear ya, man. I'm having a heck of a time adjusting to sport jujitsu rules.

no strikes to the front of the face is killing me. at least you can strike the back from behind....now I just need to get my foot speed up a little to get my fat ass flanking better.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, lets try this again, MMA ground looks to submit, Kung Fu looks to Maim how much more simple can it get? it's a different mindset. If I were to fight in the MMA, and slam a guy down on the mat, and then do a full weighted knee drop on his ribs, maybe bounce on the injury a couple of times to make sure I killed him good, i'd be disqualified for intentionally trying to maim my opponent.

See the difference? In one I don't care if he tapps, i'm trying to perminantly cripple him, if not kill him, the other I'm just attacking till he says "Uncle".

If MMA ground fighting is Sooooo frick'n brutal how come we don't see guys carried away in stretchers with perminant, crippling injuries, never able to walk again? Where are all the guys that got killed fighting in these matches? Where are the guys who must now live out thier lives in wheel chairs because their spines got broke? Wheres the multiple deaths at every match? How come there are no incedents of peoples wind pipes getting crushed from Eagle claw techniques or break breaking chops to the adams apple wile they are laying on the ground? Where's all the guys who had thier anckles broke?? I don't mean a sprain, I mean complete breaks. Why don't we see a dozen busted knee caps every fight?? Where's all the busted elbows? (Not popped, but clean breaks)

Really man, you guys don't allow real brutality for the same reasons we don't. The difference is we work on those techniques as the foucus of our training, and you guys work on Submissions as the focus of your training, because Submissions are humane, non brutal ways of winning these competitons (Winning them is your primary focus BTW).

Yes people get hurt sometimes, mostly spraines from what I see, but I have yet to see the medics rush in with a stretcher and start performing emergency care on a guy whose rib cage just got crushed in and is lying on the mat dying right infront of the entire audience. I have yet to see the medics rush in and try to save the life of a fighter who got thrown down and had his head and stomped full power repetedly on his head and or neck, by a standing opponent, till it practically popped. What I see is guys twisting eachother up in bizzar Yoga potures till they tapp. At best, MMA ground figting has some ugly ground and pounds, but nothing truly brutal.

Seriously, if you guys are sooo Brutal, how come we see all this hugging and snuggling? Why don't you just ram your full body weight with your, knee point, into thier necks and bounce them repeatedly till they die? THAT would be brutal.

[Royal Dragon]

When is this practiced? Are training parters getting broken ribs, punctured lungs and the like?

Reply]
We train in class. What we do to keep the brutality doen to a minimum, and the safety upop to a maximum is to controll the decent so we end up just leaning on their ribs instead of comming crashing down full power. Just like the example above of the guy getting his head leaned on.

Why would it be any different for a "Kung Fu" fighter, who doesn't actually go thru with the movements in practice, and a MMA fighter, who stops the movement when the opponent taps?

Reply]
Simple, your intent is to make them tapp, it's the goal. Ours is to maim the opponent. We just don't follow through with it because we need people to practice with, and if we break them all we will have no one. Brutality must be limited in any training envoriment. You can really only get so close in practice no matter who you are. MMA guys, especially the ground, intentionally ignors good opertunityes to win quicklly, soley because those oppertunityes would require great brutality, and having to harm or cripple the opponent. You TRAIN to ignore those options and instead mount and go for some sort of more humane, non brutal submission.

This really isn't about "Kung fu is brutal Muahahahahahah (Evil laugh)", it's more about pointing out that MMA Ground fighting is not brutal. Most of your stuff isn't going to put the guy in a stretcher. You don't even train with that as the goal, it's the furthes thing from your intent, it's not even on your mind, you train to submitt and make'em tap.

[red5angel]

Royal Dragon, two things you learn right away in grappling is when to tap and when to let go, so you DON'T hurt anyone. Your goal as a grappler may not be to maim anyone but you apply a hold that hurts, you can bet that if you just push/pull/squeeze a little harder and you are going to seriously hurt someone.

Basically all this stuff you are saying can be turned around in a sporting event. TKD doesn't often teach you to maim or kill so much as score points but your fooling yourself if you think a good TKD person can't hurt or kill you.

You're right of course, Kungfu often teaches you killing maiming or breaking techniques. I have been to a few tourneys now where kungfu guys are out for injuries, same with grappling guys. IT might be happening more at kungfu tourneys but then is it technique or lack of control? Thos MMA guys train pretty hard. Alot harder sometimes then the kungfu guys!

"Why don't you just ram your full body weight with your, knee point, into thier necks and bounce them repeatedly till they die? "

You answered this question yourself. They aren't in there to kill each other. How many people from your school have been killed while practicing or sparring?

[Royal Dragon]

Ha haaaaa!!!, FINALLY someone that understands my frik'n piont!!!! Good job!!!

Royal Dragon, two things you learn right away in grappling is when to tap and when to let go, so you DON'T hurt anyone. Your goal as a grappler may not be to maim anyone but you apply a hold that hurts, you can bet that if you just push/pull/squeeze a little harder and you are going to seriously hurt someone.

Reply]
See, humane, not brutal. This is my exact point.

>>Basically all this stuff you are saying can be turned around in a sporting event. TKD doesn't often teach you to maim or kill so much as score points but your fooling yourself if you think a good TKD person can't hurt or kill you.

Reply]
They are less brutal than the MMA guys.

>>You're right of course, Kungfu often teaches you killing maiming or breaking techniques. I have been to a few tourneys now where kungfu guys are out for injuries, same with grappling guys. IT might be happening more at kungfu tourneys but then is it technique or lack of control? Thos MMA guys train pretty hard. Alot harder sometimes then the kungfu guys!

Reply]
Probably less at Kung Fu tourneis as we don't allow ground fighting due to the fact our methods are so brutal. The MMA guys have it right by going for humane and non brutal submissions.

>>"Why don't you just ram your full body weight with your, knee point, into thier necks and bounce them repeatedly till they die? "

You answered this question yourself. They aren't in there to kill each other.

Reply]
See, MMA= Non Brutal

>> How many people from your school have been killed while practicing or sparring?

Reply]
None, we try to limit the brutality in practice for safety, just like everyone else. the difference is we actualy practice stratigies that use the brutal techniques. We train to LOOK to use them. MMA Ground systems look to IGNOR them in favore of pain compliance submissions.

In all seriousness, I'd rather fight Kerr than a properly trained Kung Fu guy (esecially if I've ****ed them off). With Kerr, I'm going to lose face and have to tap out, with the Kung Fu guy, by the time I know I'm in trouble I'm crippled for life if not dead or dying from my injuries.

[red5angel]

Royal Dragon, I think the issue might be that it sounds like you are saying that MMA guys can't be taken seriously because their training methods and goals might be different. For example -

"With Kerr, I'm going to lose face and have to tap out, with the Kung Fu guy, by the time I know I'm in trouble I'm crippled for life if not dead or dying from my injuries."

It sounds like you don't think this guy Kerr could do some real damage in a real fight?
I can tell you this, I wouldnt' want to scare anyone who has better or more training then me. Take a WWE wrestler for example. What they do isn't exactly martial as it is more acrobatic. But one of those guys get s****ed off, picks you up and drops you on your head in the street and it's over.
I'm not comparing WWE to MMA by any means. All I am saying is that while they may train for different things you can't argue it is necessarily less effective for it. Does that make sense? Am I way off here?

[Merryprankster]

Ok, lets try this again, MMA ground looks to submit, Kung Fu looks to Maim how much more simple can it get?

Are you being spectacularly obtuse on purpose or is it just coming naturally today?

MMA ground looks to BREAK, cause unconciousness via choke, or beat you senseless, whether through Ground n Pound or delivering bootstomps, knees, soccer kicks, elbows, etc. Tapping and referee's stoppage are our ways of ensuring that fighters are not injured too badly. It's a CONTEXT issue (sport vs street) vice a "deadliness" issue.


If I were to fight in the MMA, and slam a guy down on the mat,

Slams are legal in ALL MMA events.



and then do a full weighted knee drop on his ribs, maybe bounce on the injury a couple of times to make sure I killed him good, i'd be disqualified for intentionally trying to maim my opponent.

PRIDE rules:


Article 8
The following actions are deemed to be illegal. A fighter who commits these illegal actions hall be given a caution by the referee and such illegal action shall be a negative factor for decision. Third caution during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter shall be fined 10% of the fighting fee per caution payable to DSE.

Biting
Eye thumbing and eye gouging
Head butting
Attacking the groin
Pulling Hair
Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
Escaping to the outside of the ring
Throwing the opponent outside the ring
Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.


You'll note that dropping knees on your opponent is perfectly acceptable. Yes, elbows aren't allowed. You prefer elbows, the UFC allows them. I admit that some venues are more restrictive than these.

I won't bother responding the the rest of your (truly) assinine post. Suffice to say that you are taking it all out of its context. MMA groundfighting is designed to beat the daylights out of the opponent one way or another. Without a ref, without the rules, I can assure you that I am going to be breaking ****, if that's what it takes. You think I won't knee, elbow, attack the windpipe etc. if that's what it requires? Just because a fighter honors tapping, so you don't have broken body parts and they respect the refs authority doesn't mean that MMA groundfighting isn't brutal--it's brutal to CONTINUE with that lock, pounding or choke. Feel free not to tap--enjoy that broken knee and torn ligaments from the heel hook-be my guest. :rolleyes:


KF groundfighting TOO BRUTAL for the ring? Classic excuse of wannabes, retards and chi hippies.

You used to make some really insightful posts. When did you turn into an idiot?

[weightvest]

no no no, kungfu always practises its lethal moves in class.

I myself have been killed several times. just last week someone pulled by heart out of my mouth and showed it to me before i collapsed.

luckily i have chi so i rebuilt a new heart.

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon


Ok, lets try this again, MMA ground looks to submit, Kung Fu looks to Maim how much more simple can it get? it's a different mindset. If I were to fight in the MMA, and slam a guy down on the mat, and then do a full weighted knee drop on his ribs, maybe bounce on the injury a couple of times to make sure I killed him good, i'd be disqualified for intentionally trying to maim my opponent.

Then your entire emphasis and intent are focused on something you've never actually done. And probably never will.

...

Or have you killed someone before? Maimed someone?


Stuart B.

[Royal Dragon]

KF groundfighting TOO BRUTAL for the ring? Classic excuse of wannabes, retards and chi hippies.

Reply]
It is, we don't even allow it in our onw comps. If we did allow ground figting in our Comps, we'd use the less brutall MMA stuff.

You used to make some really insightful posts. When did you turn into an idiot?

Reply]
It's not that, it's I'm exposing cerian hypocrisis here (or trying to) So far only one guy got it.

MMA Is NOT brutal, it seeks to submitt. look at the list of rules you posted?? What are they for except to prevent fighters from brutalising eachother? You can't even elbow people in the head it's right in the rules you posted. You can't Slam people down, it's illegal. I mean, why are you arguing that MMA is so brutal anyway? You just posed a bunch of stuff proving my point.


red5angel]
Yes, you are probably right. The other part is I sort of wandred from my point a bit, which was to say that MMA ground fighting is NOT brutal. I never meant to emphasis Kung Fu's is (although it's true), nor did I want to compare the Stand up, only the Ground figthing, but I got a bit off track in a few posts.

But one of those guys get s****ed off, picks you up and drops you on your head in the street and it's over

See, THAT's brutal. You don't see MMA guys traing to do that stuff (it's against their rules). Kung Fu guys do. We just pull it enough to be safe. The difference between real, and training is really just the amount of effort. MMA guys don't look to do that kind of stuff, they look to mount and submitt, maybe pound a bit from a mount, but certianly not any sort of criplleling menuvers.

[Royal Dragon]

Then your entire emphasis and intent are focused on something you've never actually done. And probably never will.

Reply]
Hmmm, I'm not going to comment on the never done part, but lets just say if I was threatened, especially by a home invader, the guy would be pulling chuncks of his right rib out of his left lung. That's assuming Terri didn't shoot'em first.

[Chang Style Novice]

Let's try this again...

"MMA Is NOT brutal, it seeks to submitt. (sic)"

should be

"In a sport context like UFC or Pride, MMA is not seeking to kill the opponent and the rules reflect this by allowing for referree stoppage and defeat by submission. This in no way reflects upon the danger posed by certain techniques that are legal in some MMA events, such as kneeing the head, attacking a downed opponent from a standing position, or locks and holds that are capable of breaking limbs when cranked."

Sheesh.

[red5angel]

MP, you know that if we kungfu guys were allowed in the ring we would kill you grappling types. I mean look at UFC, er Pride. Well maybe not Pride...but anyway us striking types would destroy you guys because you don't train to kill and you know it.



hmmmm, Royal Dragon, I can see your point. I really can but comparing what they do in competitions to what anyone else does in competitions is sort of wierd. Kungfu guys pull their punches, I have yet to see a kungfu tournemant where everything goes, including killing. We have our own set of rules that restricts us.
I don't know, maybe I am missing the point or something. Are you saying specifically that Kungfu groundfighting is more dangerous then MMA groundfighting because of the different emphasis? Would you say that in the street kungfu has an edge over MMA type grappling because of this?

[ewallace]

I'm exposing cerian hypocrisis here (or trying to) So far only one guy got it.
I think most people get what you are trying to say, and are simply saying that you are incorrect. In fact, almost everything you are saying about MMAs lack of brutality can be turned right around on you.

[Ray Pina]

If you enter a NHB event you most certainly can slam your knee into someone's rib cage repeatedly until it breaks. It's just that the other guy is doing stuff too, and opportunities for repeated clean hits to the same target don't just present themselves on silver platters. If you can control the guy to the point that he can't defend against that type of repeated attack, they tend to stop it (tap or ref).

The reason I chimed in is not because I have loyalty to MMA but to what it represents. I believe that type of "reality" fighting is important. Kung Fu can too easily turn into a "my technique is too deadly to use" debate. As far as eagle claw techniques and the like, to apply those you have already entered the guys gate, at that point you can pinch him in the neck or just deliver a hammer blow ... up to you. But it's in the getting there. That's where I think these venues shine. You can face a trained fighter who is resisting full out and won't be stopped because you lightly tapped his gi from 3 feet away.

I'm not big into titles anymore. How you gain and use leverage, body alignement, power source and delivery, methodology-- this is what I care about. What ya call it doesn't matter. In the end it will all be MMA under various names. Who can afford not to evolve?

[ewallace]

Good post EF.

[Royal Dragon]

Are you saying specifically that Kungfu groundfighting is more dangerous then MMA groundfighting because of the different emphasis? Would you say that in the street kungfu has an edge over MMA type grappling because of this?

Reply]
To a certian extent yes, as I do believe that, but my position today is really much simpler than that. Basically I'm saying that MMA Ground figting is not really as brutal as they like to make it out to be because the emphisis is not on cripiling, maiming or killiing the opponent, it's on useing Pain compliance to force a submission and a tap. My point is not all that complicted really, if you sit and think about it. I really don't see how it turned into this huge thread jacking deal.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You used to make some really insightful posts. When did you turn into an idiot?

MP has grabbed the correct by the ankles and is shaking him down for lunch money!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Then your entire emphasis and intent are focused on something you've never actually done. And probably never will.

Reply]
Hmmm, I'm not going to comment on the never done part, but lets just say if I was threatened, especially by a home invader, the guy would be pulling chuncks of his right rib out of his left lung. That's assuming Terri didn't shoot'em first.

C'mon. You can tell me.

Having seen a guy get his arm broken by a "submission" in Pride, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that an MMA type lacks the intent necessary to do something like that.

Granted, the guy didn't mean to break his opponent's arm. He meant to get a lock and make the guy submit. But it's the nature of the lock that the opponent's arm could readily be broken if that were the intent.

So generally arms don't get broken in MMA for much the same reason that people don't walk out of a kung fu class "pulling chunks of rib out of their lungs." The person performing the technique took it to a point and not beyond. But if you maintain that you could take it beyond that point should the need arise, then logically you have to accept that the submission expert could too. That is, if logic's your thing.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

RD - what if I said they can be just as brutal or just as dangerous because they train so much more on the ground?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by ewallace

I think most people get what you are trying to say, and are simply saying that you are incorrect. In fact, almost everything you are saying about MMAs lack of brutality can be turned right around on you.

Amen. Lack of accord doesn't mean lack of comprehension.

[Royal Dragon]

If you enter a NHB event you most certainly can slam your knee into someone's rib cage repeatedly until it breaks.

Reply]
But you can't SLAM him down on the mat and follow that momentum into the rib crushing knee drop because slamming is illegal, thearfore it's not really traied, and consequently the techniques that follow that momentum into a cripeling fight ending manevure are not even thought about except maybe in passing. See, the thorw and the momentum set up and facillitate the knee drop. It's not just your full weigth on the lower and weakest part of the ribs, it that PLUS the momentum set up by the throw, Which is illegal because it basically power slams the opponent into the ground.


It's just that the other guy is doing stuff too, and opportunities for repeated clean hits to the same target don't just present themselves on silver platters.

Reply]
No, but if you grab him by the head, and ass, and pick him up, and slam him down and then fall ad hard as you can so your knee lands on the lowe rib wiht ful weight encanced by the moemntum of the drop and throw, your going to crush his rib cage in one single shot. That's like placeing 240 (my current weight) MOVING against a rather weak part of the human annatomy. He's going to be too stuned by tat to do jack in defecse against follow ups designed to crush more ribs.

[i]If you can control the guy to the point that he can't defend against that type of repeated attack, they tend to stop it

Reply]
Sure, but now we are talking about anti take down skills. Which strangely enough puts us back on the orginal topic.

[ewallace]

Basically I'm saying that MMA Ground figting is not really as brutal as they like to make it out to be because the emphisis is not on cripiling, maiming or killiing the opponent, it's on useing Pain compliance to force a submission and a tap.
And the "Kung Fu" groundfighting you spoke of emphasizes assuming that injuries will occur and that you will have those opportunities. It's all speculation.

[Royal Dragon]

And the "Kung Fu" groundfighting you spoke of emphasizes assuming that injuries will occur and that you will have those opportunities. It's all speculation.

Reply]
Sure, just like it's all speculation that if I took a baseball bat and hit you in the side of the head with a home run swing that you'd probably die from your head caveing in.

[Merryprankster]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were to fight in the MMA, and slam a guy down on the mat,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Slams are legal in ALL MMA events.

I'm sorry, which part of this did you not get?

Reading for comprehension.

FWIW, I understand you're point, you're just WAY wrong.

[Merryprankster]

Here, let me try again, just in case you decide to miss it repeatedly.

Slamming is legal in MMA. Slamming is legal in MMA. Slamming is legal in MMA....

[Merryprankster]

In fact, Quentin "Rampage" Jackson has ended several fights through slams.

Why?

Because slamming is legal.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by MerryPrankster
Slams are legal in ALL MMA events.
PRIDE rules:
(snip)
You'll note that dropping knees on your opponent is perfectly acceptable.




Originally posted by Royal Dragon
But you can't SLAM him down on the mat and follow that momentum into the rib crushing knee drop because slamming is illegal,


Tomorrow morning for breakfast, why not try cornflakes instead of a big bowl of *******?

[Royal Dragon]

Opps sorry, I missread that-----My Bad.
You may continue arguing now.

[Royal Dragon]

Still though, you don't see too much out side of ground'em and make'em tap. That's the first goal. Usually the second, third and forth too.

[Merryprankster]

The goal is to make them give up.

Why? It's a substitute for having something break, having your face permanently rearranged or going to sleep for a nice little nappy-nappy.

All it takes to go from tap to "brutal" is not honoring the tap and not having a referee.

Secondly, plenty of people play the ground and POUND game, not ground and tap. Do I need to list again?

Get it? Or is this still too hard?

[Xebsball]

Merryprankster you mma scum, stupid oil wrestilng wuss, you suck and you cant fight, go grab another man's thigh, and fock you ina ass

ewallace you bastage i dont even know how they allow you to post here, you... bastage-bag

ShaolinTiger you... you... men's butt-oiler, get out of my face before i **** on your eye

apoweyn you kickboxing travesti, your silicone tits fool some, but those large shorts dont hide your package down there


did i forget any mmaers? :D

[Royal Dragon]

The goal is to make them give up.

See, MMA = Not Brutal

All it takes to go from tap to "brutal" is not honoring the tap and not having a referee.

Reply]

But they TRAIN to honor the tap, and the DO have a refferee.

See, MMA = Not Brutal

Secondly, plenty of people play the ground and POUND game, not ground and tap. Do I need to list again?

Reply]
Yes, Ground and POUND, into submission or KO, not ground and smash & Pound his face till he's not capable of fighting back because he's too dam injured to do so.

See, MMA = Not Brutal.

What are the specs of broken Jaws to actual fights in a year anyway? 0 or 1 or 2 (at best) to over 100 fights?

How about submissions vs carreid away in a strecther with medic working feaverishly to save you? in a year? 0 to 100+

Deaths in the last 10 years? 0 to 1000+ fights?

[MasterKiller]

Yes, Ground and POUND, into submission or KO, not ground and smash & Pound his face till he's not capable of fighting back because he's too dam injured to do so.

KO = not capable of fighting back because he's too dam injured to do so.

[Chang Style Novice]

Sport=not brutal, for ****'s sake! You're talking about sport not mma when you talk about rules!

[Royal Dragon]

MMA's train almost exclusively for sport. Or NON Brutal submission fighting.

KO's are not very severe, they wake up and walk out every time (I'm sure there are some far and few between exceptions)

[Royal Dragon]

DEFINITION according to RD

Brutal = catclysmic injury, not some bumpes and bruises or a soar elbow.

[MasterKiller]

KO's are not very severe, they wake up and walk out every time (I'm sure there are some far and few between exceptions)
If you KO a man with Kung Fu, do you keep pounding him? Once he's out, the threat is gone and the fight is over. Same result.

[Chang Style Novice]

And furthermore, let me say that sport SHOULDN'T be brutal. I mentioned earlier that I think refs in mma often let fights go on too long. And I don't care for MPs attitude of keeping on fighting after it's clear that you've won. If you are de facto the winner of the bout, I think you are honor bound by human decency and good sportsmanship to back off whether the ref signals you to or not. If I was in Don Frye's shoes in the Frye-Batteti match, for example, I would've gotten up and declared myself the winner after about five or six of those knees to the head and not kept going until the ref pulled me off.

[Royal Dragon]

If you KO a man with Kung Fu, do you keep pounding him? Once he's out, the threat is gone and the fight is over. Same result

Reply]
Probably, unless he raped my sister, but that still does not make MMA Brutal.

[Xebsball]

hey, what if someone KOs you then **** on your face or fock you without condom

[Royal Dragon]

And furthermore, let me say that sport SHOULDN'T be brutal. I mentioned earlier that I think refs in mma often let fights go on too long. And I don't care for MPs attitude of keeping on fighting after it's clear that you've won. If you are de facto the winner of the bout, I think you are honor bound by human decency and good sportsmanship to back off whether the ref signals you to or not.

Reply]
See, the GOAL of MMA is to NOT be brutal.

If I was in Don Frye's shoes in the Frye-Batteti match, for example, I would've gotten up and declared myself the winner after about five or six of those knees to the head and not kept going until the ref pulled me off.

Reply]
What were Batteti's injuries? Was there anything broken, or was Fry being gentile and just knocked him out?

[Royal Dragon]

hey, what if someone KOs you then **** on your face or fock you without condom

Reply]
I'm not sure, but I think the ref might stop the fight for that.

[MasterKiller]

hey, what if someone KOs you then **** on your face or fock you without condom
In your case, you should tell the police about your dad's behaviour. You're just a boy, afterall.

[Chang Style Novice]

I was speaking for myself, not MMA at large, and I do not practice MMA.

I don't know what Batteti's injuries were, but Frye could have easily killed him with those knees if the fight continued and he decided to do it. I suspect that Batteti didn't tap due to some macho latin code of honor, the same kind of thing that got Helio Gracie's arm broken by Kimura.

That sh!t is just dumb to me. It's a sport, a game. And it still doesn't address the difference between MMA as a sport and MMA as a way to hurt someone until they can't move/breathe/whatever. We all saw John Marsh break whatsisname San Soo's arm. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that after the break Marsh could've dragged his ass to a bridge and thrown him into the water to drown if he had a mind to?

[Xebsball]

oooh son of a b!tch!!!
you cant use the "dad focked you" argument on me, cos it was me that first introduced it here at kfo

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon,


But they TRAIN to honor the tap, and the DO have a refferee.

Don't you train to pull your strikes before your training partner is rendered unconscious? Broken? Maimed?

The difference please.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

I second Aps question?


Also RD what is the importance of brutality in training?

[ewallace]

Sure, just like it's all speculation that if I took a baseball bat and hit you in the side of the head with a home run swing that you'd probably die from your head caveing in.
Just like it's all speculation that I'd still be standing there like a dumb ass waiting for your swing to connect. Also notice the word in bold in the above quote.

No offense Royal Dragon, but I think it is you who fails to see what's going on here. I see value in both methods.

You say "I do [technique X] and [result Y] will happen", assuming that you will be in proper position, assuming you will be able to generate the proper force, and assuming the other person will not be able to defend against it. - Hope everything works out there.

The other method, is one tap away from happening for sure.

I always prefer reliability over probability.

[Brad Souders]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What in the f*ck are u guys talkin about. I looked at my calander cuz i wasn't sure if 1993 waz back again or not.

I agree that "mma" events are less brutal then training "street" grappling because of the respectr shown to the opponent/training partner. BUT if i where to put on an armbar on the street (standing or on the ground) wouldn't it take me simply lifting an inch harder to "break" the opponents arm.

The only advantage a "fighter" has is his body becomes more conditioned to a "figth". Yes there is a referee but that's not what i'm talkin about. The fighter becomes more awarew of his own bodies limits and what he can can and can't do when the sh*t hits the fan.

How does one drop an knee on an opponents limb in a real fight if the other person is resisting? Easily right he controls the opponent. Well take that single though and imagine being able to control the opponent threw the whole conflict not just physical but mental. That's what "ring" fighting lets u gain. How to control the tempo of combat with a safe place to do so.

I'm not sayin some 90 year old crippled man from China couldn't take out Rickson Gracie, sh*t if a five year old runs into his dad's crouch more an likely he just whooped his as*. But what i am saying is why look at mma as the "evil" and "non realistic" event to so called full contact sparring because in the end what u do is the exact same thing as i do when i train. So buckle up my friend if you fight in more then one range YOU ARE A MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST. Welcome to your ego becoming bigger.

Later, Brad

[Royal Dragon]

Don't you train to pull your strikes before your training partner is rendered unconscious? Broken? Maimed?

Reply]
There is a different mind set, we are working skills with the INTENT to maim or cripple. We have to pull back of course, but the techniques are desinged to work that way, and to be hoinest, unless yu actually break something, I don't see many of them really working. Take my favorite Knee drop to the lower ribs. If you don't go full tilt, and actually crush the rib cage your really just leaning on the ribs and the opponent (If he's still got his wind after the throw) can just rool over, grab you leg and pin you into submission MMA style. If you can gte the position to land the knee , it's actually harder to NOT do it because your fighting gravity. You really just have to let yourself go and it just happens. In the heat of battle, the chances of "Accidentally" maiming your advisary is pretty hig with that one. With MMA stuff, you have to add more pressure, and really try to break a joint. The pint is to get the submission without having to go that far in the first place.

Also RD what is the importance of brutality in training?

Reply]
Personally, I think avoiding it is more important. Yes, you should "Simulate" it as best as possible, enough so it's there if you ever need it, but not actually practice it if at all possible, because you'd be leaving a trail of bodies in yuor wake.

MMA Ground fighting actually has and advantage by not being a Brutal discapline similar to Chin Na in Kung Fu because you can use it in sport venues and such, and you could never use real Kung Fu ground fighting as it pretty much precludes catastrophic injuries if you want it to work. With injuries like that pilling up MMA would soon be banned if Kung Fu Ground figting was actually done on any sort of scale.

In MMA, you have guys that over do it on occasion (As exapmled earlier in this thread), but on the whole, most people don't want to brutalise thier oppnents, so they go for stuff that does not leave any sort of long lasting permnant dammage. That's why you see knockouts, and the majority of fights ending in submissions as apppsed to most fights ending with criples going out on stretchers or in body bags.

[Brad Souders]

please note i'm to f*cken lazy to edit my post. Thank you.

[Royal Dragon]

How does one drop an knee on an opponents limb in a real fight if the other person is resisting?

Reply]
Umm no, it's a full body weigted kneed drop to the lower rib cage used in conjunction with the throw. If you manage pull the throw off, you've got the knee drop. The momentum will almost pull you into it if you let it. All you have to do is aim. It's not against a limb, that would be stupid and ineffectual.

[Royal Dragon]

please note i'm to f*cken lazy to edit my post. Thank you

Reply]
Mee too. heck, I barley edit my own posts :D

[norther practitioner]

:rolleyes: X100
WOW, who would figure that street v. sport and kung fu v. mma would come up again..... I thought this was mainly dead with such regulars.

[ewallace]

MMA Ground fighting actually has and advantage by not being a Brutal discapline similar to Chin Na in Kung Fu because you can use it in sport venues and such, and you could never use real Kung Fu ground fighting as it pretty much precludes catastrophic injuries if you want it to work. With injuries like that pilling up MMA would soon be banned if Kung Fu Ground figting was actually done on any sort of scale.

In MMA, you have guys that over do it on occasion (As exapmled earlier in this thread), but on the whole, most people don't want to brutalise thier oppnents, so they go for stuff that does not leave any sort of long lasting permnant dammage. That's why you see knockouts, and the majority of fights ending in submissions as apppsed to most fights ending with criples going out on stretchers or in body bags.

Please tell me someone didn't actually post that.

I think the point that you fail to see, and possibly why your little incident with Water Dragon occured, is because people don't train to wait for a tap, they just have the control to stop when they hear it...if necessary. It's the responsibility of the tapee to know when he can't take anymore.

[Mutant]

Good insights Brad, this was an interesting post.

While ring awareness is always important (or awareness of environment, whether its a crowded bar, alley, etc), it sounds like its paramount for a striker fighting a grappler. I also thought the 'striking nearest target of the shoot, changing target' example was excellent. You mentioned that leg kicks werent nessesarily good for stopping a grappler and that they might feed on them....What do you think a particularly effective kick is against a grappler looking for the shoot? Front stomp, round, side, other? All of the above and depends? mid section or going for the knockout head shot? ime, side and round kicks work best when cutting an angle after initial combo.

BTW, I think the discussion here digressed quickly away from the original topic here which was far more interesting... not to mention that the 'deadly eye and groin' argument holds no water as anyone could do that on the street if it came down to it... we're talking about training other complex and useful skillz here.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
MMA Ground fighting actually has and advantage by not being a Brutal discapline similar to Chin Na in Kung Fu because you can use it in sport venues and such, and you could never use real Kung Fu ground fighting as it pretty much precludes catastrophic injuries if you want it to work. With injuries like that pilling up MMA would soon be banned if Kung Fu Ground figting was actually done on any sort of scale.

In MMA, you have guys that over do it on occasion (As exapmled earlier in this thread), but on the whole, most people don't want to brutalise thier oppnents, so they go for stuff that does not leave any sort of long lasting permnant dammage. That's why you see knockouts, and the majority of fights ending in submissions as apppsed to most fights ending with criples going out on stretchers or in body bags.

Most fights end in submissions because when people are caught in a hold that will break their limbs if it is applied any more, they submit. This is quite evident in that just about all of the cases where someone refused to submit, they ended up broken.

This does not make MMA, the style (inasmuch as that even exists) 'less brutal' than kung fu. The same hold that gets a tap in the ring would get a break outside of it. Therefore, those moves are moves that break limbs. What do Kung Fu Chin Na do that is more brutal than breaking limbs?
The same series of strikes that gets a tap-out in the ring will eventually break someone's face outside of it, where a tap-out is not honored. What do Kung Fu strikes do that are more brutal than MMA strikes?

So far the /only/ example of something 'more brutal' than MMA striking is your vaunted knee drop. Which, despite your obtuseness, IS PERFECTLY LEGAL IN MMA. Guess what: it's hard to drop a knee on someone that's actively trying to get away, as people often are, even after you've slammed them. And since you can't train it full-contact, since it would cripple your training partner, I doubt you're going to be able to pull it off against a resisting opponent.

MP's right, you did used to post some reasonable things. Did someone take over your account, or did you just wake up retarded this morning?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You people aren't getting this are you.


[b]
The street is not the issue here. And if it were, the LAST place you want to be is tied up un the concrete trying to "Submit" a guy. The Kung Fu Ground wold be more accurate, it's quick and eficient, and it keeps you on your feet so it's easier to deal wiht his reinforcments.

Are YOU so good that nobody can take you down? If so, then you should be competing - you would be very rich. If YOU agree that you can be taken down, then you had better know what to do once you get there.



I don't know, have not seen too many fights stopped due to injury. It does happen, but most end in a submission where the loser just tapps out. Infact that's the most common occurance.

1. you don't train mma or bjj
2. you don't compete
3. you don't watch many competitions

in addition to submitting from locks, people also submit from strikes. PLENTY of people have been pounded to a pulp. As far as pain compliance, that's not the issue. If you don't tap, you WILL have a broken limb. that simple. Even in practice, because if you don't tap, the guy you are rolling with thinks he can keep going - and he will.

It's irrelevant to the argument. MMA's Ground fighting is not brutal, it's a humane way of figthing in the ring designed to minimise dammage. Kung Fu ground fighting is designed to maim asap and is considerably more brutal than MMA's Ground which is desgned to force a submission. Infatc, we don't even use it in our own tournies, for that very reason.

but you can use it in ours. And who has yet to do it?. Exactly.


Training styles are irrelevant to the argument as it does not address the general design and intent of the systems. MMA uses a much more humane ground system based on *Pain* compliance and fear of injury to force submissions. Kung Fu's ground just breaks an opponent as much as possible with little considerationfor the opponents well being. MMA Ground seeks to make the opponent *Give Up*, Kung Fu Ground seeks to cripple them so they can't continue on even if they wanted to.

1. that's an ignorant statement.
2. mma is not ground based, grappling is.
3. regardless of how humane it looks, do you honestly believe that those locks have to be applied slowly enough to give someone a chance to tap? we can break a limb just as fast as you can eye gouge or knee drop someone... and probably more efficiently.

[Merryprankster]

Yes, Ground and POUND, into submission or KO, not ground and smash & Pound his face till he's not capable of fighting back because he's too dam injured to do so.

Idiot. You're talking about the difference between sport/kwoon and street. Not the PURPOSE of MMA groundfighting. You're under the impression that everybody trains MMA to compete. Many do. But many do not.

FatherDog has caught the correct.

Mutant--I find that roundkicks leave you vulnerable to a follow up takedown. I'm always ready to sprawl when I'm done! :D

[Brad Souders]

Mutant was up bro. Long time no talk. Hows the san shou going? Hope training is going well.

I have to leave for work right now but will answer your questions tonight with my thoughts though some will disagree. :)

So royal if u miss the dropping knee to the ribs then the fight is on the ground? Geesh when are u street guys gonna realize the ground is not the safiest place to be in a fight. Why take it to the ground when hte concrete awaits.

later,
Brad "anti all martial arts only believes in reality" Souders

[Royal Dragon]

It's the mind set, MMA TRAINES to submit, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

MP's right, you did used to post some reasonable things. Did someone take over your account, or did you just wake up retarded this morning?

Reply]
All I said was MMA is not geard to be really brutal, specifically it's ground fighting. The goal is to submit, not Kill or Maim, what's not reasonable about that? Is it the fact that you somehow feel diminished because you feel being seen as brutal is important to you?

Most fights end in submissions because when people are caught in a hold that will break their limbs if it is applied any more, they submit

Reply]
See, they stop and submit, You don't actully HAVE the brutality, it allways stops short. Generally there is no catastropic injury that will affect them for any great period of time. MMA is also played on a mat, so the effect of the "Slam" is greatly dimminshed too, thus removing yet another avenue of brutality.

How often out of all MMA Comps do you see anyone carried out on a stretcher with the medics feaverishly working to save them?

Face it, Most MMA gyms TRAIN to get a submission, NOT train to Kill or Maim. The idea is to humanly test eachother skills, NOT crippple people. Everyone has the wrong idea here. They think MMA is this ultra brutal, no holds barred, bare knuckle "Pit" fight, and it's really not brutal at all. If it was, noone would bother with the submission, they'd just break stuff without even a second thought.

[norther practitioner]

I'm always ready to sprawl when I'm done!
Duh! (slaps self on head) thanks!:D

speaking of which, how often do you guys practice takedowns, counters, and sprawling?

[ewallace]

It's the mind set, MMA TRAINES to submit, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

It's the mind set, CMA TRAINES to pull back, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

[Royal Dragon]

So royal if u miss the dropping knee to the ribs then the fight is on the ground? Geesh when are u street guys gonna realize the ground is not the safiest place to be in a fight. Why take it to the ground when hte concrete awaits.

Reply the chances of that are slim, but if it does mess up, it will mostlkly be becasue you didn't let yourself fall into it. All you have to do is just stand up, and step back. Or follow the momentum and dive over him, roll and bounce back up to your feet. The idea is to take THEM down and out, but keep on your own feet at the same time.

Unless your a dolt, and just hang there, then they will grab your leg roll you over and submitt you MMA style

[ewallace]

This is like me sitting at my computer wearing only pink underwear telling people how they shouldn't wear only pink underwear.

[Royal Dragon]

It's the mind set, CMA TRAINES to pull back, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

Reply]
TALLY HO!!! You got it!!!

ewallace,

:eek:

[red5angel]

ewallace has a point RD, he shouldn't tell anyone not to wear pink underwear....



RD - here is the thing. When you train, are you ACTUALLY killing or maiming anyone? I understand you might percieve your mental intent as being different but what is the reality in the way you train?
In grappling, you are correct in saying their intent is to get the submission. But this is by applying holds that can maim or break. There isn't much of a difference between what they are doing when they train and what you are doing. You both stop out of necessity and civility.
Now although you aren't killing or maiming your training partners, if you were to encounter someone who is trying to really harm you, you would adjust your attitude slightly and go for a maim/break/kill. Why can't a grappler do the same?

[ewallace]

you could never use real Kung Fu ground fighting as it pretty much precludes catastrophic injuries if you want it to work. With injuries like that pilling up MMA would soon be banned if Kung Fu Ground figting was actually done on any sort of scale.

I must have missed that the first time around. That's absolutely hilarious. I'm sure some folks would have a blast with that on one of the mma forums.

[ewallace]

you would adjust your attitude slightly and go for a maim/break/kill. Why can't a grappler do the same?
Because it's not chinese.

[Royal Dragon]

Why can't a grappler do the same?

Reply]
They can, if they did they'd be Brutal!

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon,


Originally posted by Royal Dragon
It's the mind set, MMA TRAINES to submit, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

And, I say again, you train with an intent that you can't possibly realize in training. Maybe in real life. But not in training. All the intent in the world doesn't change the fact that you've never maimed anyone in training. Does it?

So I ask you, for the second time, what is the difference between allowing an opponent to tap from a position in which you could break his arm and pulling a strike before you actually maim him? According to you, the intent could be there in either case. (Unless you have some psychic connection to MMAers) But the execution is limited. So what's the difference?


All I said was MMA is not geard to be really brutal, specifically it's ground fighting. The goal is to submit, not Kill or Maim, what's not reasonable about that? Is it the fact that you somehow feel diminished because you feel being seen as brutal is important to you?

Nope. It's because you can't see your own contradiction.

How do you know what an MMA fighter's intent is? It can't be based on what you observe. Because based solely on what we'd observe in your training, your intent can't be to maim or kill either. Because you've never done it. If you had done it, then we'd have evidence that this was your intent. But since you haven't done it, your intent is no more tangible or credible than anyone else's.


See, they stop and submit, You don't actully HAVE the brutality, it allways stops short.

Define 'pulling a technique.' You do pull them, right?


Generally there is no catastropic injury that will affect them for any great period of time. MMA is also played on a mat, so the effect of the "Slam" is greatly dimminshed too, thus removing yet another avenue of brutality.

Name the people on whom you've actually caused catastrophic injury. I'll settle for first names only.


How often out of all MMA Comps do you see anyone carried out on a stretcher with the medics feaverishly working to save them?

As many times as I've seen this happen at kung fu schools.


Face it, Most MMA gyms TRAIN to get a submission, NOT train to Kill or Maim. The idea is to humanly test each other skills, NOT crippple people. Everyone has the wrong idea here. They think MMA is this ultra brutal, no holds barred, bare knuckle "Pit" fight, and it's really not brutal at all. If it was, noone would bother with the submission, they'd just break stuff without even a second thought.

And you're brutal. So you break things without a second thought. So, again, please list the people to whom you've done this. It's a very simple request.


Stuart B.

[Golden Arms]

Let me start off by saying that I am a total kung fu exponent, and I think kung fu is a very effective system of fighting and works well if practiced in all ranges. That being said....WTF is up with this thread??!! Why doesnt anyone ever realize that we are ALL doing the same things here, like it or not? Some just take different things to different levels!

I have a news flash for you...there was a Gladiator that became infamous because he killed at least one opponent by impaling him and disembowling him using only his hands . How much do you want to bet that guy had NEVER heard of kung fu, and had also not practiced any of the shaolin iron finger techniques? Also, what if someone in china had developed an animal system based upon the python/constrictor? What do you think that system would look like when used..hmm..well they would probably stick to their opponent, close in and then use leverage and positioning to break their opponents necks, backs, limbs, do chokes and stuff...Sound familiar? Fighting is fighting..you can have a preferred specialty and you can train realistically or totally unrealistically, but I am willing to bet that if some guy in new zealand 2000 years ago just decided to practice the same punch over and over and over for years and years..he would be able to fajing, use snapping power, etc, all without ever having heard of them or knowing they had names. How do you think all the systems developed in the first place? The genius of all systems is in the techniques that speed your developement of the primary skills called upon most often in it. Not in the skills themselves. Anyone that practices anything nonstop for years (like a bodyguard, or great warrior from any culture would likely train) would get most or all of those skills. In fact that is probably the root of most fighting systems. Thoughts?

Oh, and if you want to see an easy to visualize example of grapplings' brutality, play DOA 2 Hardcore on PS2 as Bayman, and tell me that is NOT some of the most intimidating stuff you could encounter in real life, period.

[red5angel]

RD, now your just getting silly.


They can, if they did they'd be Brutal!

So by your standards, kungfu is also not "Brutal"?

[Royal Dragon]

Name the people on whom you've actually caused catastrophic injury. I'll settle for first names only

Reply]
Check you PMs

[Shaolin-Do]

"Anyone that practices anything nonstop for years"
is henceforth practicing "kung fu".
:D

MMA Vs. Kung fu ground fighting...
MMA sets people into locks... but a good majority of the submission holds are the same as a lot of the eagle claw standing locks- in that a little extra effort breaks/dislocates something of the opponent.

Kung fu ground fighting is something I wouldnt use unless someone intended on killing me or someone I know. Full weighted knee drops to the temple are pretty much useless in todays society, unless you want major jail time. Pretty brutal way to kill someone.

[Royal Dragon]

So by your standards, kungfu is also not "Brutal"?

Reply]
We train to be brutal, but we actually are not brutal either.

[red5angel]

RD you are fighting a losing battle. What you say makes logical sense but is not reality. If it makes you feel better to call kungfu guys, and I am a kungfu guy by the way, Brutal, then so be it. It doesn't make MMA guys any less dangerous.

[Royal Dragon]

RD, now your just getting silly.

RD, now your just getting silly.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They can, if they did they'd be Brutal!

Reply]
He he he eh, silly yes, but it's still true!!

[Shaolin-Do]

CHAO!!!

[Royal Dragon]

RD you are fighting a losing battle. What you say makes logical sense but is not reality.

Reply]
Huh?

If it makes you feel better to call kungfu guys, and I am a kungfu guy by the way, Brutal, then so be it. It doesn't make MMA guys any less dangerous.

Reply]
Actually, It's not my intent to say Kung Fu is Brutal, I'm trying to say MMA Ground fighting is not.

[red5angel]

Actually, It's not my intent to say Kung Fu is Brutal, I'm trying to say MMA Ground fighting is not.

no, what you are saying is that mma training is not brutal.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Name the people on whom you've actually caused catastrophic injury. I'll settle for first names only

Reply]
Check you PMs

I'm not sure what was so sensitive about your story that it couldn't be posted here. But I read it. Check your PM.

And you didn't answer my other questions.

1) What's the difference between pulling a strike and not going through with the break? And don't say 'intent.' It's a copout answer. (Unless you feel like answering 2)

2) How do you know what goes through an MMA fighter's mind? He doesn't execute the break. Just as you don't execute the strike. So why is your 'intent' more valid?

3) How often have people been carried from your school on strechers, maimed by this brutal intent?


Stuart B.

[Royal Dragon]

no, what you are saying is that mma training is not brutal.

Reply]
I may be inadvertantly wandering that way, but if you reread my posts, you will see I am really talking about the ground aspect the most.

[red5angel]

I don't know man, I think answering Aps questions would go along way towards explaining what you are trying to say.

[Royal Dragon]

1) What's the difference between pulling a strike and not going through with the break? And don't say 'intent.' It's a copout answer. (Unless you feel like answering 2)

Reply]
Nothing both are not Brutal

2) How do you know what goes through an MMA fighter's mind? He doesn't execute the break. Just as you don't execute the strike. So why is your 'intent' more valid?

Reply]
Because MMA guys train to fight in the ring, and that is a sporting contest where crippling your opponent on purose is taboo and usually against the rules.

3) How often have people been carried from your school on strechers, maimed by this brutal intent?

Reply]
None, because we don't let it go that far. OUR "Intent" is brutal because we seek to cripple, where as MMA guys seek to submit, so theyr intent is Not Brutal, but in actual action Neither are brutal becasue the body bags are not actually piling up.

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon,

You did it again. You argued intent without being able to tell me how you know a man's intent.


Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Nothing both are not Brutal

Then your training isn't brutal. Simple as that. You don't maim people in training, therefore your training isn't brutal. So now you're arguing that your intent is brutal. And intent without execution is just an idea.


Because MMA guys train to fight in the ring, and that is a sporting contest where crippling your opponent on purose is taboo and usually against the rules.

Crippling your opponent on purpose is taboo in kung fu schools too. MMA guys know that the ring is not reality. Just as kung fu students know this. But when kung fu students fight in reality, their understanding changes to match. Why are you incapable of granting that same credit to MMAers?


None, because we don't let it go that far. OUR "Intent" is brutal because we seek to cripple, where as MMA guys seek to submit, so theyr intent is Not Brutal, but in actual action Neither are brutal becasue the body bags are not actually piling up.

Ah. I see. So your intent is brutal. But we have to take your word for it. Because the execution isn't brutal. But because the MMA guy's execution isn't brutal, you assume that their intent isn't either.

Interesting.


Stuart B.

[Royal Dragon]

AP, in reply to your PM,

Over all, MMA guys donot try to break stuff on any large scale. they train to SUBMIT. They inetnd to use it to SUBMIT.

Kung fu Guys train the techniques with the intention to use it to CRIPPLE if we ever need it. Most Kung Fu guys don't train for the ring, they train for street. Most MMA guys donot train for the street, they train for the ring.


Although MMA "Could" be Brutal, it is not in it's applcation. Kung Fu for that matter is not either when you look soley at the Letai and not the main purpose of most trainings.

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon,


Although MMA "Could" be Brutal, it is not in it's applcation. Kung Fu for that matter is not either when you look soley at the Letai and not the main purpose of most trainings.

In theory, an eye gouge is more brutal than an ankle lock. But that's theory. It's very easy to claim that you have intent to gouge someone's eye out when you're practicing that technique. But what, precisely, does that mean if you've never actually done it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by weightvest
no no no, kungfu always practises its lethal moves in class.

I myself have been killed several times. just last week someone pulled by heart out of my mouth and showed it to me before i collapsed.

luckily i have chi so i rebuilt a new heart.

I'm at work and laughed out loud when I read this... thanks for making everyone think I'm remedial...

It kinda reminded me of the REAL Ultimate Power stuff.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
In fact, Quentin "Rampage" Jackson has ended several fights through slams.

Why?

Because slamming is legal.

I went to high school with him. You know, there's some bad blood between he and vanderlei right now

[red5angel]

Actually on behalf of the kungfuers out there I just have to say that a good kungfu guy should also train to submit instead of kill. Killing should be the final answer to a last resort.

[Xebsball]

Vanderlei is gona crush him, obvious

[norther practitioner]

Actually on behalf of the kungfuers out there I just have to say that a good kungfu guy should also train to submit instead of kill. Killing should be the final answer to a last resort.

I think this is where some of the critisisms come from new sports guys towards some of the traditionalists.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
And furthermore, let me say that sport SHOULDN'T be brutal. I mentioned earlier that I think refs in mma often let fights go on too long. And I don't care for MPs attitude of keeping on fighting after it's clear that you've won. If you are de facto the winner of the bout, I think you are honor bound by human decency and good sportsmanship to back off whether the ref signals you to or not. If I was in Don Frye's shoes in the Frye-Batteti match, for example, I would've gotten up and declared myself the winner after about five or six of those knees to the head and not kept going until the ref pulled me off.

but if you stop and the ref doesn't deem him unable to continue, he may get lucky, catch second wind, etc. and you may lose the match.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Xebsball
Vanderlei is gona crush him, obvious

wrong answer. rampage is stronger, and his striking has gptten alot better. He'll eat vanderlei's lunch.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'd rather lose a match than cave some guy's head in because the ref was told by the promoter that the crowd wants blood.

I'd probably be a lousy mma competitor anyway, though.

[Xebsball]

thas a joke, btw new Vanderlei is heavier/stronger too

But why will Vanderlei win?
Simple.

the facts:

* Rampage is from USA
* Rampage knew Sevenstar

* Vanderlei is from Brazil
* Vanderlei lives on the south, just like Xebby

Vanderlei WINS

[red5angel]

np, what do you mean?

[SevenStar]

exactly, just like xebby... and we all know how soft he is. vanderlei will be eating leather.

[norther practitioner]

All that crap about oh my art is too deadly etc... they don't know if there sh1t is too deadly, have they killed someone. I think that if more traditionalists practiced to submit people (which I used to like knowing some of that back in the good friend of a bar owner/roving drunk bouncer days) instead of or in conjuction with trying to maim them, then the traditionalists would have 1) better chance sport wise.. 2) a realler outlook on there abilities.
It isn't that easy to kill someone in the heat of battle.

[MasterKiller]

It isn't that easy to kill someone in the heat of battle. Submitting someone is no piece of cake, either.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by SevenStar
exactly, just like xebby... and we all know how soft he is. vanderlei will be eating leather.

you crazy or trying to die something :mad:
the only softy around here is SevenShinyStarsInTheSky
the tough around here is XebsSuperToughGreatBalls

[norther practitioner]

Submitting someone is no piece of cake, either.
Not saying it is...
however, killing is such a drastic measure, and making someone cry for there mom, and call themselves a *****... that is priceless.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Xebsball


you crazy or trying to die something :mad:
the only softy around here is SevenShinyStarsInTheSky
the tough around here is XebsSuperToughGreatBalls

what did you say your name was? Xebsgotnoballs? The name is SevenStar. Except for to your sister, who calls me SevenStud.

[Xebsball]

SevenStarTrek,

i dont got sister, only brother

Still your sister calls me XebsMarvelousGoldenJewels at night and XebsWithBiggerBallsThanMyBrother during the day

[Chang Style Novice]

Xeb - when responding with "i dont got sister, only brother" to a taunt like 7*'s, the proper followup is "no wonder he's been complaining about his butt hurting."

[Xebsball]

ah ok :D

thnx :D

[red5angel]

never, ever talk about a mans butt hurting....

[Xebsball]

this is a place of exploration and learning for me
i keep taking notes, even if they are contradictory :D

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!, is this silly thread still going on?

Oh, and don't say "Chao"!!!

[rubthebuddha]

meow?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Xebsball
SevenStarTrek,

i dont got sister, only brother

Still your sister calls me XebsMarvelousGoldenJewels at night and XebsWithBiggerBallsThanMyBrother during the day


Xebsball-less,

Dang... No wonder he's been complaining about....

Nah, actually, he tried to call me SevenStud Also, but I told him that I don't swing that way, and I kicked his arse. I coulda sworn you had a sister. Maybe your mom just looks really young...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
LOL!!, is this silly thread still going on?

Oh, and don't say "Chao"!!!

It was actually a darn good thread. All of that kung fu brutality crap messed it up.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I don't know how that happened. One little comment on my part and Boom!

It was incredibley funny though!! I was laughing my ass off all day!

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
I look to the war between a striker keeping it on the feet, and the grappler trying to get it down to the ground. This area is where both have equal advantages and disadvantages. If the grappler is out the striker can strike, and if the grappler is on the ground he can grapple. But none have the true advantage during the moments of clinch and takedown. So here is a look on the process of this strategy war.

What about styles whose primary emphasis, rather than being "striking" or "grappling" is exactly this transitory period you're talking about? Do you think there's such a thing? What implications does that have for your model?

Good post btw.

[Shaolin-Do]

"But none have the true advantage during the moments of clinch and takedown."
SC uses lots of takedowns in the clinch...
Watch the vids on emptyflower.

[Brad Souders]

"What about styles whose primary emphasis, rather than being "striking" or "grappling" is exactly this transitory period you're talking about? Do you think there's such a thing? What implications does that have for your model?"

The closest thing i've seen to this for a whole "style" is a tie between san shou and thai boxing.

The thai boxer can fight in close with trained weapons and in thailand they sweep alot. The only thing he would lack is sprawling but that's cuz he does not train them. It is not part of his sport so why should he. But alot of the techniques i use in clinch/trap range are thai influenced.

San Shou *i'm no expert* seems to be very versed here. Maybe not the same weapons as thai *cuz of their US rules which is all i've seen David correct me if i'm wrong* They use takedowns and their takedowns are very explosive. So in that same tune they become more aware of the throws. The only defensive thing they could lack would be the hand gripping techniques of a good judo players leg sweeps, and someone driving a shot. But their footwork would be toned to more infighting avoiding takedown thoughts.

Hopefully someone with more experience can chime in.

Later, Brad

[Christopher M]

What about greco-roman? Not enough of the "entering" idea, you think?

[Brad Souders]

Greco is good for upper-body but they lack the lower-body offensive moves a freestyle type wrestler may have.

I'd rather tie up with a greco guy then a freestyle guy that has learned good solid judo sweeps.

Personally i'd like to hear more of the Cinese Wrestling art without all the bull**** trolling. Seems interesting and one of the few arts i have researched.

Later, Brad

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Yeah, I don't know how that happened. One little comment on my part and Boom!

It was incredibley funny though!! I was laughing my ass off all day!

That's a talented arse you have there. You were talking out it all day too.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, the best Trolls are when you don't really realise your trolling yourself. :eek:

I score myself a 9.9 out of a possible 10.0


Seriously though, looking back on it, I was being abit rediculus. Maybe I should stop useing those herbs, they make me silly ;)

I think the GOALS of MMA are more humane, but in reality it can all be pretty brutal with just a minor change in intention.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I find that roundkicks leave you vulnerable to a follow up takedown.

MP, what would ever make you think that? :)


Brad, as a judoka and a san shou guy I'd say this. While judoka are certainly much better at throwing, many judoka would get tossed in a san shou match because they couldn't handle the assult of strikes before, during and after a clinch. San shou encompasses a larger range of skills and keeps throws down to the basics. And shooting.- forget it. he's going to hit you on the way in, sprawl and push you to the mat.

Many of you CMA believe that groundwork = submissions. That simply isn't the case.

Groundwork = positional dominance and the advantages that come with that. It might be a submission, but it just as easlly might be punching from a secure spot or escaping from a bad spot.

[Royal Dragon]

Many of you CMA believe that groundwork = submissions. That simply isn't the case.

Why would we belive that? Our own ground work is mostly ground and pound, or my favorite knee drops or other such stuff that keeps us kneeling on them so it's easy to get back on our feet fast.

Take that stupid Wing Chun video where Emin Botepez (sp) sucker attacks his rival master (Leung Ting I think??) Look at his take down, he basically swept him, kneeled on his chest and pounded on him similar to what you see in MMA's That is very typical of Kung Fu strategy on the ground. That perticular example was just sad, but if you think about it, Boztapez could have seriously messed him up if he had just added the full weighted knee drop to the solar plexius instead of controlling his descent.

His goal was to embarass, he had the shot, could have taken it, was kneeling in the right place so you know he got it in, he just pulled it on purpose to embarase the guy with a less brutal face pounding.

[MasterKiller]

Nah, actually, he tried to call me SevenStud Also, but I told him that I don't swing that way, and I kicked his arse. I coulda sworn you had a sister. Maybe your mom just looks really young...
That was Xeb's dad. Someday he'll have enough money to be "post-op."

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You know, the best Trolls are when you don't really realise your trolling yourself. :eek:

I score myself a 9.9 out of a possible 10.0


Seriously though, looking back on it, I was being abit rediculus. Maybe I should stop useing those herbs, they make me silly ;)

I think the GOALS of MMA are more humane, but in reality it can all be pretty brutal with just a minor change in intention.

Yeah, I'll buy that. Cheers.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Many of you CMA believe that groundwork = submissions. That simply isn't the case.

Why would we belive that? Our own ground work is mostly ground and pound, or my favorite knee drops or other such stuff that keeps us kneeling on them so it's easy to get back on our feet fast.

Take that stupid Wing Chun video where Emin Botepez (sp) sucker attacks his rival master (Leung Ting I think??) Look at his take down, he basically swept him, kneeled on his chest and pounded on him similar to what you see in MMA's That is very typical of Kung Fu strategy on the ground. That perticular example was just sad, but if you think about it, Boztapez could have seriously messed him up if he had just added the full weighted knee drop to the solar plexius instead of controlling his descent.

His goal was to embarass, he had the shot, could have taken it, was kneeling in the right place so you know he got it in, he just pulled it on purpose to embarase the guy with a less brutal face pounding.

I think Leung Ting is Boztepe's teacher. William Cheung was the rival, if memory serves. (After all, this altercation occurred, what, in the late eighties?)


Stuart B.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I normally don't pay mcuh attention to Wing Chun stuff, but that vid did demo typical Kung Fu Ground tactics, abet poorly, but enough so the MMA guys can get what it is we do.

Contrary to popular belife, Kung Fu has quite abit of ground work, it's just really brutal so it's banned in all of our tournaments for safety. You see the MMA guys doing pretty much the same stuff we do so far as Ground and pound goes though. Our ground stuff is pretty cavemanish.

[Merryprankster]

RD,

I hate you. *******.

Caught me in the net--sort of--I did, after all, point out that you did seem to have TURNED into an idiot, suddenly. :D

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!, I was just in a really weird mood yesterday. That herbal formula does make me a bit silly. Even some of my freinds and family have noticed I'm in exceptioanlly good spirtis lately. :D

I couldn't have done that better if I tried, it's was the perfect accidental Hijacking Troll!!

I'm really suprised no one called me on it :p

(Well, you sort'a did ;) )

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[I]That perticular example was just sad, but if you think about it, Boztapez could have seriously messed him up if he had just added the full weighted knee drop to the solar plexius instead of controlling his descent.

His goal was to embarass, he had the shot, could have taken it, was kneeling in the right place so you know he got it in, he just pulled it on purpose to embarase the guy with a less brutal face pounding.

I'm calling BS on the knee drop crap, as well as most of the other junk you have posted on this thread. Do you really think you can take someone out so easily just by throwing someone and adding a knee drive? That's perfectly legal in Pride, UFC and every other MMA event that I have ever seen.

Where are all the deadly kung fu guys who can do this move? Why are they not in Pride or UFC raking in the $$$? Oh yeah, I know, they are above all that and they wouldn’t want to seriously hurt their opponents with their "brutal" arsenals.

When is the last time you have tried this on even an intermediate level MMA fighter rather than some clueless guy who has no idea on how to be thrown or prevent a throw? Oh, that’s right, you don’t actually train hard because your back is messed up. But you can sit around and pontificate on how kung fu has all these deadly techniques that can only be pretend practiced.

Maybe the fact is that it is ridiculously easy to keep this kind of technique from being effectively employed.

Do you honestly think you can take out a groundfighter with a throw? Groundfighters train to be on the ground. Don't you realize that groundfighters train on how to be taken down without getting hurt? Integral to the training is also the ability to bring someone down with you if you are thrown. As far as the knee to belly or ribs, if by some miracle you did end up there, I could show you a couple of dozen counters that end up with sweeps, knee bars, or heel hooks.

As far as Emin pulling up on a knee drive against Cheung on purpose in that encounter- what a load of crap.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know man, Seasoned grapelers get schoold by Ground and pound all the time.

You get thrown, and the guy comes crashing down on your ribcage wiht his knee, especially the lower ribs, what's he going to about it? It all happens at about the same time as you land, you've really got no time to do anything till it's over.

Maybe I'm wrong about the Wing Chun fight, but his knee was in the right spot, wasn't it? I mean, a good blow to the Solar plexus is a knockout shot, we've all seen it in boxing where the guy goes down from a good upper cut into the solar plexius. I have something on video where that happens and the guy goes down and almost pukes on the mat.

Worst case senario, the oppnent turns abit as you go down, and you hit the ribs instead, or you have to fall into a mount and go BJJ from there.

BTW, this taktic is something Iwas rather good at pulling off BEFORE I fried my back, so I'm not speaking from lack of experiance, I was just careful to go easy so I didn't really hurt anyone.

Either way, you land on top, and your opponent is on the bottom, your in the superior position. If you miss it, you could just sit on his chest from there and pound on his face till the ref stops the fight as seen in an uncountable number of MMA fights.

As for the having counters comment goes, EVERYTHING has counters. Nothing is invincable, and everything, every one, and every system can be beat. So that comment is irrelevant.

Really, every one has a counter for the shoot, yet everyone still tries it and makes it work a deacent percentage of the time. Who cares if you have counters for a knee drop?? You can't make your counters for a shoot work a good percentage of the time, what make this any different?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I don't know man, Seasoned grapelers get schoold by Ground and pound all the time.
Seasoned grapplers get schooled by G&P because this is a realistic, high percentage strategy (achieve a superior position, then fire away). That's the reason it happens all the time.


You get thrown, and the guy comes crashing down on your ribcage wiht his knee, especially the lower ribs, what's he going to about it? Landing with a knee drive is not a realistic, high percentage move. That's the reason you don't see it. You can't throw anyone who is halfway proficient at takedowns and land with a knee in position to hurt them. If you personally can do this against someone who has a clue about takedowns, you can make a lot of money teaching this at seminars.




...a good blow to the Solar plexus is a knockout shot, we've all seen it in boxing where the guy goes down from a good upper cut into the solar plexius.Taking someone out with a shot to the solar plexus in a boxing match or with a knee in a Muay Thai match is completely different (and very doable) than trying to do it with your opponent on the ground.



As for the having counters comment goes, EVERYTHING has counters. The reason I mention counters was to point out that groundfighters work the knee on stomach as soon as they begin their training. With thousands of them working this position for many years, don't you think they would have figured out how to make this such an effective, fight ending technique?


... I was just careful to go easy so I didn't really hurt anyone.An therein lies the reason you didn't figure out that it doesn't work.

[Merryprankster]

I gotta go with KF on the knee thing, and also for the reasons why.

Too little full contact leads to techniques that LOOK like they should work.....but don't.

RD, how much groundfighting have you done? Seriously.

[Royal Dragon]

Taking someone out with a shot to the solar plexus in a boxing match or with a knee in a Muay Thai match is completely different (and very doable) than trying to do it with your opponent on the ground.

Reply]
So why wouldn't landing on the Solar plexius with full body weigth driven by the momentum of the fall do it? I mean, you have far more impacting ability due to your entire weight falling into him on only the point of the knee. It's not like yo can build any muscles on te Solar plexius. And for the rib shot, remember it's the lower rib cage, at it's weakest point where no amount of muscles can really help. Also, if you should happen to miss it, you can just fall into a mount and ground and pound till you win. Since alot of thrown in Kung Fu almost pull you to do this anyway, how is it a "High Risk" manuver?

Also, just because MMA hasn't figured something out, does not mean it can't be reliably done. You guys don't have exclusive rights to good skills and techniques.

Concerning the comment above about But you can sit around and pontificate on how kung fu has all these deadly techniques that can only be pretend practiced.

You knopw, I'm pretty sick about MMA guys giving us greife because we have have techniques that are to dangerious for the ring, as if we are just making excuses. I got noews for you, there are plenty of thing illegal in MMA comps because they are to "Deadly" or brutal too, Like standing there and kicking and opponent in the head wile he's on the ground, or Eye gouges. Some comps ban small joint manipulation and specifically outlaw pressurepoint tactics.


Here are some things posted before, that PRIDE considers too dealy for the ring.




Article 8
The following actions are deemed to be illegal. A fighter who commits these illegal actions hall be given a caution by the referee and such illegal action shall be a negative factor for decision. Third caution during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter shall be fined 10% of the fighting fee per caution payable to DSE.

Biting
Eye thumbing and eye gouging
Head butting
Attacking the groin
Pulling Hair
Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
Escaping to the outside of the ring
Throwing the opponent outside the ring
Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.


See, You guys have all sorts of things to Brutal for the ring too, now don't you, so shut up about our stuff already will ya? You can go around maiming, crippeling ad Killing opponenst. If you did these comps would all be outlawed adn we wouldn't even have MMA anymore. Really, when you whine like that, it makes you sound like an ******* that WANTS to see people getting hurt.

[Royal Dragon]

RD, how much groundfighting have you done? Seriously.

I've doen a little here and there. My sister almost married a wreslting coach years ago, and I rolled with him quite a bit. I learned some from him, but not enough to say I'm a grapeller or anything. We had originally planned to work My Kung Fu so it had a good anti grappeling dimension to it, but we never got around to it.

I've also rolled with some BJJ guys from time to time back in the late 90's. None really advanced or skilled, so you might not want to count it. Do you remember Shaolin Dynasty? One of his guys had some experiance with it. He got frusterated with something I was trying to teach him, and he shot in and got me down, mounted and tried to submitt me. Twice I got out, one with a finger Chin Na, one with a throat grab similar to Eagle claw, and the third one he stopped because he popped my elbow really loud. It didn't hurt me, and I could have kept going, but it was so loud he though he broke me. It didn't hurt that day, but I was in serious pain the next day, and infact the next week, so I defently had a sprain. If he had kept going, He very well might have got the submission on that one. I give that one to him, because I got hurt, he didn't, and he let off because the thought he hurt me. He was very honerable about it.

I seem to get taken down easily, but I am able to escape the submisions by Finger Chin Na's, Throat attacks and eye presses. BUT, I have to be rather brutal about it to get it to work though (that's why I try to avoid the eye ones). It seems Bjj style grapeling is rather vulnerable to that stuff. Propbably why it's illegal in most MMA comps. It would suck if everytime a BJJ guy got a Kung Fu guy down, locked and almost submitted only to lose to a Throat manipulation or finger Chin Na ehy??

Seriously, when I get my game more back, I do plan to get some ground skills. Preferably through Kung Fu guys, but I'm not above working with BJJ guy's either. It would be good to have some hands on with them as far as I'm conerned.

[ewallace]

You knopw, I'm pretty sick about MMA guys giving us greife because we have have techniques that are to dangerious for the ring, as if we are just making excuses.



See, You guys have all sorts of things to Brutal for the ring too, now don't you, so shut up about our stuff already will ya?

So both groups have techs not allowed in the ring, but one group adapts and another doesn't?

Who has the more complete art? :)

[Royal Dragon]

So both groups have techs not allowed in the ring, but one group adapts and another doesn't?

Reply]
That's BS, ever hear of San Shou, Kuo Shou? We adapt plenty to the ring. The only thing we don't adapt is our ground, because the Chinese consider MOST of it to be too deadly for the ring.

Personally, I'd like to see a ground allowed in Kuo Shuo, but I can almost guarentee they won't use the Kung Fu ground, it's too brutal. They'd use the BJJ style ground. It's safer, and less potential for really nasty injurys.

Who has the more complete art?

The correct question would not be "Who has the most complete art"?, but "who has the best venue"? Which would be MMA.

[ewallace]

Sorry. That wasn't a very good troll attempt was it?

[Royal Dragon]

One more thing, I think Kuo Shou would be a GREAT Primer for MMA. It gives us a place to cultivate our ways of doing things, including our take downs, throws and anti takedowns, work our Kicking and striking game, wile at the same time gives us skills needed to to compete in MMA. All we'd have to do is learn some BJJ and get used to being allowed to do Ground & Pound in the ring.

I'd actually like to see Gurond & Pound allowed in Kuo Shuo, just not the grappeling because it's not really advisable for the street. This would give reasons to train for the ground, and what to do if you find yourself there, especially getting back to your feet asap. That will help cultivate fighting skills consistant with Chinese philosophy, and create a sport that directly translates to the street at the same time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

So why wouldn't landing on the Solar plexius with full body weigth driven by the momentum of the fall do it? I mean, you have far more impacting ability due to your entire weight falling into him on only the point of the knee. It's not like yo can build any muscles on te Solar plexius.

because you wouldn't land squarely on their solar plexus, if even anywhere near it...

And for the rib shot, remember it's the lower rib cage, at it's weakest point where no amount of muscles can really help. Also, if you should happen to miss it, you can just fall into a mount and ground and pound till you win. Since alot of thrown in Kung Fu almost pull you to do this anyway, how is it a "High Risk" manuver?

fall into mount? describe the throw you are talking about.

Also, just because MMA hasn't figured something out, does not mean it can't be reliably done. You guys don't have exclusive rights to good skills and techniques.

True, but who would have more knowledge about throwing and ground skills? The KF guy who trains standup everyday, or the grappler who does throwing and ground work every day?


You knopw, I'm pretty sick about MMA guys giving us greife because we have have techniques that are to dangerious for the ring, as if we are just making excuses. I got noews for you, there are plenty of thing illegal in MMA comps because they are to "Deadly" or brutal too, Like standing there and kicking and opponent in the head wile he's on the ground, or Eye gouges. Some comps ban small joint manipulation and specifically outlaw pressurepoint tactics.

Yeah, things are illegal in MMA, but they get in there and kick arse anyway. They don't say "I can't compete because I can't kick someone in the head when they're down" Bottom line is that saying you can't compete because your techs are too deadly is a cop out.

[Royal Dragon]

because you wouldn't land squarely on their solar plexus, if even anywhere near it...

Why not? Botepez even managed to do it in his stupid attack.

fall into mount? describe the throw you are talking about.

Hmm, think sweep more maybe. Take him down so he falls on his back. I use to enter sort of sideways, hook his leg and bring it forward, wile pushing back and up on his chin. As he is falling, you just sort of hop up and follow him down. Your knee is pretty much aimed at the solar plexius or the lower corner of his rib cage. Draw a straight line between those two points and that's about where you land without thinking about it.

From there, just spread your legs and scoot up a bit and your mounted. You could even skip the knee drop and go straight for the mount (I think most MMA guys already do it like that)

Try it on matt. Do the sweep in the air, and sort of hop up and come crashing down on the mat with the knee that is closest to your pretend opponent. You can see how much dammage could be cause just by dong that even if you miss your target.

You can also do it from other take downs, like that throw by the face thing Monkey Slap calls a "mop". The target there is the neck, or maybe attempting to pin the shoulder wile you pound thier face in with a flurry of rapid attacks.

Also, it can be used to pin shoulders and stuff, as you fall elbow first on thier heads and face.

You can come up with all sort of entries for it. Start by kneeling on an opponet in a way that pins them, and back up form there, and you can figure out all sorts of different throws to launch it from.

Talk to Monkey Slap, I think his guys call certian varieties of it a "Cage".

[Royal Dragon]

True, but who would have more knowledge about throwing and ground skills? The KF guy who trains standup everyday, or the grappler who does throwing and ground work every day?

Reply]
What about the Kung Fu guy who does stand up and throws and Chin Na's all day? Granted the MMA guy will know more about ground grapelling, but the Kung Fu guy is just as skilled at everything else, including Ground and Pound.

Yeah, things are illegal in MMA, but they get in there and kick arse anyway.

Reply]
And Kung Fu guys don't?? Ever hear of San Da?

They don't say "I can't compete because I can't kick someone in the head when they're down" Bottom line is that saying you can't compete because your techs are too deadly is a cop out.

Reply]
Who says we can't compete? Do I Haaaaave to say San Shou, Kuo Shuo, Letai again?

Really dude, I'm not in the game because of my back right now, More like my conditioning is not good enough from my health struggles the last few years, but I would if I was healthy, and there are plenty of Kung Fu guys who do compete. Your trying to make it look like we don't because certian skills are banned (Our ground methods specifically) is ludicras. There ARE techniques that are too dangerous for the ring or Letai, and they are banned, even MMA bans stuff that is too dangerous. If you want to come down on us for it, you got to come down on yourself. You guys do it too. It's not like we don't compete and that's our excuse. We do compete, just not in YOUR venues.

[Brad Souders]

"I seem to get taken down easily, but I am able to escape the submisions by Finger Chin Na's, Throat attacks and eye presses. BUT, I have to be rather brutal about it to get it to work though (that's why I try to avoid the eye ones). It seems Bjj style grapeling is rather vulnerable to that stuff. Propbably why it's illegal in most MMA comps. It would suck if everytime a BJJ guy got a Kung Fu guy down, locked and almost submitted only to lose to a Throat manipulation or finger Chin Na ehy??"

Touch my throat even close i poke your eyes out then break your neck.


Touch even close to my eyes i break your arm then i eye gouge u one the weak side.

Brutal enough for ya. Your points are good advice but to think because u train one "style" no one else can do these things.

I trained at one of the most street oriented schools i've ever seen and most all of us have done mma. Fortunally for my opponents i left the secrets at home that day.

Later, Brad
:eek:

[Brad Souders]

"If you want to come down on us for it, you got to come down on yourself. You guys do it too. It's not like we don't compete and that's our excuse. We do compete, just not in YOUR venues."

I wish an mma guy would compete in san shou. win or lose it would be good experience.

oops nevermind i already did :D

Later, Brad

[Royal Dragon]

Brutal enough for ya. Your points are good advice but to think because u train one "style" no one else can do these things.


Reply]
Actually, Tai Tzu is several styles rolled into one. You have the short ranged southern Tai tzu Quan, then the long ranged Northern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan AND the long ranged Southern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the Monkey. I haven't done the monkey yet myself, but I know guys who have (LOL, THAT sounded good ehy?)

And yes, that was brutal enough for me. Like I said, everything has a counter, even the counters have counters. :D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[I]So why wouldn't landing on the Solar plexius with full body weigth driven by the momentum of the fall do it? I mean, you have far more impacting ability due to your entire weight falling into him on only the point of the knee. It's not like yo can build any muscles on te Solar plexius. And for the rib shot, remember it's the lower rib cage, at it's weakest point where no amount of muscles can really help. Because it's an unrealistic technique. To get a decent throw you've got to have close body to body contact. There's not much room to fit the knee in there.


Also, just because MMA hasn't figured something out, does not mean it can't be reliably done. You guys don't have exclusive rights to good skills and techniques. No exclusive rights, but competitors are always on the lookout for techs that are high percentage, especially ones that others aren’t using. If kung fu really had this great, devastating finishing throw, the freestyle wrestlers or MMA fighters would have been using it years ago. Most any freestyle wrestler or MMA fighter would love to have a great throw like that.


Do you remember Shaolin Dynasty? One of his guys had some experiance with it. He got frusterated with something I was trying to teach him, and he shot in and got me down, mounted and tried to submitt me. Twice I got out, one with a finger Chin Na, one with a throat grab similar to Eagleclaw...How did you perform the finger Chin Na? And what did he do when you reached to his throat?



What about the Kung Fu guy who does stand up and throws and Chin Na's all day? Granted the MMA guy will know more about ground grapelling, but the Kung Fu guy is just as skilled at everything else, including Ground and Pound. How can he be more skilled at ground and pound when his practice is almost all stand up?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
What about the Kung Fu guy who does stand up and throws and Chin Na's all day? Granted the MMA guy will know more about ground grapelling, but the Kung Fu guy is just as skilled at everything else, including Ground and Pound.

How is he more skilled at ground and pound? and chin na will not directly tranlate to the ground. If he uses is effectively at standup, then that merely makes him even with the grappler, who spends alot of time in the clinch - it doesn't give the KF guy any substantial advantage over the mma guy, if any advantage at all.


And Kung Fu guys don't?? Ever hear of San Da?

sure I have. Where are all of the brutal injuries in san da? how many people have died? why not widen the venue beyond just kung fu?

Who says we can't compete? Do I Haaaaave to say San Shou, Kuo Shuo, Letai again?

you hear it all the time - we don't compete in mma because... Nobody said you can't compete. But alot of what you hear is excuses.

Really dude, I'm not in the game because of my back right now, More like my conditioning is not good enough from my health struggles the last few years, but I would if I was healthy, and there are plenty of Kung Fu guys who do compete. Your trying to make it look like we don't because certian skills are banned (Our ground methods specifically) is ludicras. There ARE techniques that are too dangerous for the ring or Letai, and they are banned, even MMA bans stuff that is too dangerous. If you want to come down on us for it, you got to come down on yourself. You guys do it too. It's not like we don't compete and that's our excuse. We do compete, just not in YOUR venues.

I'm not trying to make it look like anything. You guys are the ones saying it. I know KF guys compete, there are several on here that do, including myself. To the guys that compete, props to them. To the ones that don't, they really have no business discussing what SEEMS like it would work in a competition because they haven't been there. Therein lies the philosophy of many mma guys - put up or shut up.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Why not? Botepez even managed to do it in his stupid attack.

he sure did... against a guy who was clueless on the ground.

Hmm, think sweep more maybe. Take him down so he falls on his back. I use to enter sort of sideways, hook his leg and bring it forward, wile pushing back and up on his chin. As he is falling, you just sort of hop up and follow him down. Your knee is pretty much aimed at the solar plexius or the lower corner of his rib cage. Draw a straight line between those two points and that's about where you land without thinking about it.

sounds like the shuai chiao diagonal cut, or judo's o soto gari. if so, then your knee should not just fall into the shoulder plexus - there should not be that much space between you and your opponent as you follow him to the ground. you would have to raise off the ground, then drop the knee.

When a grappler hits the ground, he's gonna be immediately going to his side - he's preparing to shrimp you into his guard, or at least prevent you from mounting him, therefore his solar plexus would not be an available target.

You can also do it from other take downs, like that throw by the face thing Monkey Slap calls a "mop". The target there is the neck, or maybe attempting to pin the shoulder wile you pound thier face in with a flurry of rapid attacks.

Also, it can be used to pin shoulders and stuff, as you fall elbow first on thier heads and face.

same thing with the mop - too much space between you and the opponent.

Talk to Monkey Slap, I think his guys call certian varieties of it a "Cage".

The cage is exactly as it's name says - a cage - a containment unit. after I throw you on your head, ideally, I want you in my cage so that I can follow up with strikes and locks.` The goal of the cage isn't dropping your knee on me as hard as possible - it's to contain the guy, in a similar fashion to a pin. Once he's contained, finish him how you wish.

[Merryprankster]

Well, you may or may not be trolling now, but we're definitely still arguing with a wall.

RD: The comments you are making indicate you don't know the first thing about takedowns and how they are executed--you may have studied them, but your mechanics, on the whole, must not be ingrained or you wouldn't dream of doing what you're talking about (or would quickly discard it!). I won't presume to tell you how to do your forms or hit me in the face--don't try to tell people experienced in a wide variety of grappling arts how you're going to pull off something that we KNOW can't be done the way you describe, except by appropriate celestial body alignment at the start of the second coming.

Yes, counters have counters. Your eagle claw and finger attacks may have worked, but when I want attacks and defenses, I want high percentage stuff. You got out 2 out of 3 times....on a guy who clearly wasn't very good (by your own admission, among other clues). Why not train to defeat guys who have a clue?

[Royal Dragon]

sounds like the shuai chiao diagonal cut, or judo's o soto gari. if so, then your knee should not just fall into the shoulder plexus - there should not be that much space between you and your opponent as you follow him to the ground. you would have to raise off the ground, then drop the knee.


Reply]
Yeah, Kinda sort of Like diagonal cut. Sort of. For what your thinking, yeah your right you couldn't get it in. I could though, I'd just adjust and make it work.


same thing with the mop - too much space between you and the opponent.

Reply]
Hmmmmm, I thought not enough space was the problem?


The cage is exactly as it's name says - a cage - a containment unit. after I throw you on your head, ideally, I want you in my cage so that I can follow up with strikes and locks.` The goal of the cage isn't dropping your knee on me as hard as possible - it's to contain the guy, in a similar fashion to a pin. Once he's contained, finish him how you wish.

Reply]
Yeah, I was trying to point out that it can be simialr to what those guys call a cage, and it can be used to "contain" as well. Basically I was reaching to make a common point of referance, becasue I know you know them.

What about the Kung Fu guy who does stand up and throws and Chin Na's all day? Granted the MMA guy will know more about ground grapelling, but the Kung Fu guy is just as skilled at everything else, including Ground and Pound.

How is he more skilled at ground and pound? and chin na will not directly tranlate to the ground. If he uses is effectively at standup, then that merely makes him even with the grappler, who spends alot of time in the clinch - it doesn't give the KF guy any substantial advantage over the mma guy, if any advantage at all.


Reply]
Ok, now your just trying to twist my words. RE read it, I never said he had MORE skills. I said "Granted the MMA guy will know more about ground grapelling, but the Kung Fu guy is just as skilled at everything else, Inluding Ground and Pound"

I never said MORE skill at it, only that he should be equally experianced (Assuming he's paracticing his whole system).


[I]Why not train to defeat guys who have a clue?

Reply]
Actually, you have too. You guys asked how much ground I had done, and I basically explained I've dabbled, but not a whole hell of alot, followed by explianing an incedent to give you a better picture. Really, if I wanted to become a master at ground work I wouldn't go to Kung Fu. It's a very caveman simple discapline. I'd got to an MMA club. Not only because there is more to it, but because it's done by ALOT more people, and the proficenecy level is higher.

[Royal Dragon]

When a grappler hits the ground, he's gonna be immediately going to his side - he's preparing to shrimp you into his guard, or at least prevent you from mounting him, therefore his solar plexus would not be an available target.

On his side? So I can't go for the ribs?

Really Man, I see MMA guys kneeling on people. If you can get the knee ON them, you can hurt them with it.

Do you think if the intended target (solar plexius) is not presented we are really too dumb to just not choose another that is readily avaliable?? Do you really think if we feel the technique we are going for is not going to work we won't just adjust and do something that will?? How is it you figure Only MMA guys seem to know this stuff, and we don't?? Do you really think most Kung Fu schools just do forms in the air and stand in stances or something?

why not widen the venue beyond just kung fu?

Why should Kung Fu only tournies open up the way they do things? MMA already does that, so why should we? We do things the way we want to do things. Both venuse already exist. If a Kung Fu guy wants to go and fight with ground techniques, he is more than welcome to go to any MMA and enter if he wants. The reverse is also true fo MMA guys who might be tired of the grappeling.

[Merryprankster]

It's a very caveman simple discapline.

Which, KF or groundwork ala BJJ or Judo Newaza?

[Royal Dragon]

Which, KF or groundwork ala BJJ or Judo Newaza?

Kung Fu's ground work. It's a cripple, maim and be on your feet as fast as possible type thinking. BJJ is far more sophistcated.

[MasterKiller]

I dunno....I think grappler against grappler, BJJ get's pretty fancy because it has to; it becomes just as complicated as Kung Fu vs Kung Fu standing up. But I've seen some of those guys dispose of non-grapplers pretty darn quickly and efficiently (and they break bones, too).

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[i] How is it you figure Only MMA guys seem to know this stuff, and we don't?? Uh... maybe because we hear you talking about doing stuff like extending your arm to attempt an eagle claw to the throat when you are mounted.


[i]Really Man, I see MMA guys kneeling on people. If you can get the knee ON them, you can hurt them with it. It's called the knee ride and it is usually not achieved directly from a throw. It mostly comes from a change in ground position such as passing the guard or moving from side mount or mount. It is a good postion from which to strike and/or look for a submission while keeping open the options of mobility. However, it's very, very hard to actually use the knee from that postion to inflict damage. Trying to do this also opens up too many possibilities to lose your positional advantage. Knees from side mount or north/south are another matter and can be very effective.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Uh... maybe because we hear you talking about doing stuff like extending your arm to attempt an eagle claw to the throat when you are mounted.

ROFL!!

It's called the knee ride and it is usually not achieved directly from a throw. It mostly comes from a change in ground position such as passing the guard or moving from side mount or mount. It is a good postion from which to strike and/or look for a submission while keeping open the options of mobility. However, it's very, very hard to actually use the knee from that postion to inflict damage. Trying to do this also opens up too many possibilities to lose your positional advantage. Knees from side mount or north/south are another matter and can be very effective.

yup.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon


On his side? So I can't go for the ribs?

not likely. think about the SC breakfall... the way they ball up? same thing. the body is in tight - you will not have a clear shot at the ribs. being in tight is just a basic defense mechanism to keep you from gaining any positional dominance.
Really Man, I see MMA guys kneeling on people. If you can get the knee ON them, you can hurt them with it.

Do you think if the intended target (solar plexius) is not presented we are really too dumb to just not choose another that is readily avaliable?? Do you really think if we feel the technique we are going for is not going to work we won't just adjust and do something that will?? How is it you figure Only MMA guys seem to know this stuff, and we don't?? Do you really think most Kung Fu schools just do forms in the air and stand in stances or something?

what are you gonna choose that you would get before you lose that positional dominance? my ribs? nah, they're covered. groin? your knee can't reach it. head? that would take too much time... seems like you don't realize 1) how quickly things happen on the ground and 2) the fact that even half an inch of space is enough to launch an escape.


Why should Kung Fu only tournies open up the way they do things? MMA already does that, so why should we? We do things the way we want to do things. Both venuse already exist. If a Kung Fu guy wants to go and fight with ground techniques, he is more than welcome to go to any MMA and enter if he wants. The reverse is also true fo MMA guys who might be tired of the grappeling.

you don't have to change your rules - just allow MMA to enter - or are they already allowed to? since they are "kung fu only" I'm thinking that they're not. . mma guys kick and punch too - they don't have to go to the ground. MMA guys fight san shou and K-1...

[MasterKiller]

you don't have to change your rules - just allow MMA to enter - or are they already allowed to? since they are "kung fu only" I'm thinking that they're not. . mma guys kick and punch too - they don't have to go to the ground. MMA guys fight san shou and K-1... It's not like someone checks your style card at the gate. Anyone can enter a KF tourny as long as they fight by the rules of that tourny.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Reply]
Hmmmmm, I thought not enough space was the problem?

It's both. In the case of the throw, there's not enough space for you tuo pull out the knee. In the second case, there is too much space - he will be on his side and covered before you can drop a knee on him.


Ok, now your just trying to twist my words. RE read it, I never said he had MORE skills. I said [i]"Granted the MMA guy will know more about ground grapelling, but the Kung Fu guy is just as skilled at everything else, Inluding Ground and Pound"

I never said MORE skill at it, only that he should be equally experianced (Assuming he's paracticing his whole system).

I'm not trying to twist anything - the KF guy being just as skilled (or more skilled) is an assumption that you can't safely and accurately make.

[Royal Dragon]

not likely. think about the SC breakfall... the way they ball up? same thing. the body is in tight - you will not have a clear shot at the ribs. being in tight is just a basic defense mechanism to keep you from gaining any positional dominance.

Reply]
Yeah, you have a point there. BTW, the break falls used in Shui Chiao are pretty standard across all Kung Fu lines. We used to do them at Master Abbate's school in the early 90s, and I'm sure we did them at Tsai's too (I just can't remeber it's been so long)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
It's not like someone checks your style card at the gate. Anyone can enter a KF tourny as long as they fight by the rules of that tourny.

that's what I was wondering - Judo does do that - at least in my experience so far - you have to be a member of the judo association hosting the tourney or one of it's affiliates.

[Shaolin-Do]

The validity of this argument was lost somewhere along the way....
I can do this you can do that but you cant cause i can do this.....
c'mon.
This is about as redundant as SD bashing.

Some ground fighters can mop the floor with kung fuers, some kung fuers will never even get taken to the ground.
A knee drop full weighted to any part of the body will be devastating. If you think about the pounds per square inch when relating humans body weight to the point of a knee, thats for me, 165 lbs on an approximately 2"x2" square. This means that we can safely assume that approximately 44 lbs per square inch will be exerted on my target. 165 lbs in 4 square inches. Its going to break bones... I dont care what Kind of iron body you have done. Only way a knee drop on someone wont hurt them is if they have a very significant weight advantage on you.

Weight of a human translated to the knee, is the same thing as the force of your arm translated to the point of a knife.

[Royal Dragon]

Shaolin-Do
Thank You!! Although, like me, you don't do MMA, so you can't possibly be right. :rolleyes:

[Shaolin-Do]

Bah...
I fight with people from other styles.
Ill consider that mixed martial arts.
:rolleyes:

This was just getting really redundant.
I dont care who you are, or who you think you are, if you think you are that tough, lay down and let someone knee drop you. anywhere. See what happens.

I dont know what this argument was all about, whether or not it can be done... If you can take someon down, cant you drop a knee on them?
Unless they roll away... then you can stand back up and b!tch about your bruised knee.

Chances are, if you know kung fu, a grappler will wipe his @ss with you on the ground, being he is profficient at what he does. But being profficient at kung fu, you should be able to avoid the takedown.
This style wont beat that style, style X is unbeatable.
...
...
:confused:
Im lost....

[Royal Dragon]

No No No SD, you got it all wrong, ONLY MMA guys know anything about fighting. The rest of us are just toying with un proven theories.

[Shaolin-Do]

I think one thing can best sum up this thread....



CHAO!!!

But really...
Strange the flow of threads lately.
Few days of hardcore SD bashing, and now seems we have moved right back over to the good 'ol striker vs grappler argument...
When the fact of the matter is...
A grappler with no striking game is going to get hammered by a striker.
A striker with no grappling game is going to get hammered by a grappler.
A grappler with proficient striking, is going to give the Striker a much harder time,
and the striker with proficient ground game is going to give the grappler a much harder time.
Until we see the worlds best striker vs. the worlds best grappler in a no holds barred match to the death, we wont know which style is better.
:cool:

[Brad Souders]

Funny how the "kung fu" people brought up this issue of mma vs kung fu when in general this thread was about helping people with their training thoughts. I've trained alot with kung fu people and learned alot from them, but u act like after i'm done training with them i say "man that sucked".

Please continue to argue about nothing while i become more advanced in my journey to become a more well rounded fighter/person.

One side note why act one knows all when i myself have been training for 10yrs and feel like a beginner everyday.

Later, Brad

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
One side note why act one knows all when i myself have been training for 10yrs and feel like a beginner everyday. because you have a semblance of humility, either natural or "earned" by getting schooled by your teachers (count me in on the latter).

[Royal Dragon]

Funny how the "kung fu" people brought up this issue of mma vs kung fu when in general this thread was about helping people with their training thoughts. I've trained alot with kung fu people and learned alot from them, but u act like after i'm done training with them i say "man that sucked".

Reply]
I was just being obnoxious. I just get the impression that MMA guys feel that our experiances don't mean squat sometimes because we never fought Tito or something. Nothing to you personally. This was origianlly a good thread, sorry I wrecked it with the whole "Brutal" sillieness.

[Brad Souders]

lol its from getting my ass kicked matter of fact i'm off to do so now.

[Brad Souders]

my thoughts were not directed to anyone just to let u guys know that not all "mma" people are driven that bjj is the god of fighting.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I actually have had good experiances with MMA people, a BJJ in fact. I just get a bit tired of the "Kung Fu" is inferior because we make excuses to not compete, when infact we have a number of competitive venuse we test our skills in. It's like some MMA guys think that becasue it's not done in MMA comps, it's not valid, that's all.

[Knifefighter]

No No No SD, you got it all wrong, ONLY MMA guys know anything about fighting. The rest of us are just toying with un proven theories. I don't think anybody here is saying you don't know anything about fighting. Based on some of your statements regarding the ground, my opinion is that you probably don't know much about fighting on the ground, however.

As far as the the particular throw with the knee drop finish you are talking about, that's exactly what it is- an unproven theory.


I dont care who you are, or who you think you are, if you think you are that tough, lay down and let someone knee drop you.There's a big difference between applying a technique on someone who lies there like a corpse and doing it for real against someone who is moving and resisting. If I choke someone out, I can apply a variety of devastating "techniques" that I could never do when they were conscious and resisting.

[Royal Dragon]

Shaolin-Do


Shhhhhh, DON'T SAY CHAO!!!!!!

[neigung]

in the case of a shuai chiao style breakfall (think fetal position on side), the knee is dropped into the ribs just below the armpit or thereabouts and for the most part, the SC knee drops don't come with the throw, they come after the throwee has impacted the ground and is (hopefully) stunned. this helps to prevent knee dropping yourself into a shattered patella (or whatever the kneecap is called) on the ground.

MMA can be brutal if they choose to be. KF can also be.

working techniques in both fields are similar, so why the strife?

mosty, MMA's train much, much harder than the average KF'er. therefore, no matter how pretty the average KF'ers technique is, the MMA will kick the ever loving crap out of him.
a MMA and KF who have both trained as hard as they can would be a pretty even fight.
i need sleep.
nite.

[Royal Dragon]

therefore, no matter how pretty the average KF'ers technique is, the MMA will kick the ever loving crap out of him.

I don't buy it, I think the average Kung Fuer and the average MMAer both with 3-5 years in of equal hours are going to be a pretty equal match. I really don't belive in the MMA is superior till you get to the uper levels because at that point most Kung Fu guys who are still in the game are focusing more on teaching, where as the MMAer is looking to go fight semi or full pro and has a more combat oriented focus.

I agree with everything else you said though. :)

[neigung]

RD -

let me clarify.
first off, i'm awake WAY too early.
second, "average KF'er" to me is the guy that goes to class once or twice a week, doesn't train at home or otherwise. a half-asser if you will.
to me the "average MMA'er" is someone who trains pretty hard, spars regularly.
might be a misconception, but i tend to feel that as a whole, MMAers train harder than most KFers.

[Royal Dragon]

Could be. I'm only training a few days a week myself, most of it is the Qi Gong, Stance holding and Forms, with little to no two man work at the moment (injury and all), so I'd guess all things considered, a two or three year MMA kid would wipe me out right now. In theory anyway, that doesn't take into account all the years I fought guys in challenges (I was a cocky SOB in my youth), and 3-5 hours of day in day out training years ago.

That was mostly stand up with throws followed by kneeling on them for controll and faking finnishing moves. Back then Ground & Pound was just not acceptable. You were considred and as.shole if you beat a guy when he was down. Today it's different, your consdred a wuss if you don't. You are expected to make the guy on the bottom fight his way out of it and try to turn the tables on you. So I don't know how my past would transfer over to a guy who came up in today's world.

I think you are right about the average Kung Fu school compared to MMA. The goals are different. The MMA is there to compete, and that drives their motivation quite a bit, especially the younger ones. The Kung Fu clubs I've been in train really hard and all, but there's not that "Urgency" to get super proficient at the fighting. There is more emphisis on the perfection of movement quality than actually putting in gear and useing it, compared to the MMA clubs.

It's more of an attitude that "The fighting will come on it's own in time" thinking. And it does, just not as fast as guys who are doing 66% Two man work, and 33% supplementary conditioning. Kung Fu today is the opposite really, it's like 66% Suplementary stuff, and 33% two man work. I realy think alot of the stuff done in the air would be better off done with a partner, but you just don't see that.

I'd really like to start a club with about a dozen college aged kids, and train them "My" way, and see what they become in say 5-6 years or so. I'm betting they would be a serious cut above the average martialarts school.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
Think about how much "mixed martial arts" would change if the eyes and groin were made a valid target?

one good hit to the eyes, and it doesnt matter if your tito ortiz, you cant make your eyes tough!





:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, a menuvuer like that would probably create an opening to which to could exploite quiite well. I reall don't belive you can sustain an eye shot, areniline or not, and not be affected enough to leave yourself open for exploitation. The real issue is the fact that you are now vulnerable to eye attacks yourself. If your going up against a bigger or more powerful and skilled opponent, he's just going to go "Three Stooges" on you first, and you loose anyway.

We won't even talk about all the blindings that would occure. Eye shots are too deadly for the ring, that's why they are banned by vertually ALL venues.

If a massive Red Chinese army ever decides to land in Canada, and storm us form the North with Swords Spears and Kwan Do's, and you manage to lose your M-16 or run out of Ammo in the heat of things, then you might have to use an Eye shot in close quarters combat. Till then, only teach it to small women that might be facing abuse by a husband, boyfreind or be faceing a rape attempt.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive been poked in the eye a few times sparring :(
People pizz me off with the junk shots too. Its easy points. I never really wear a cup cause I dont have one tho, so I got used to blocking my junk. :)
Eye shots hurt, and in a real fight it will give you a quick upper hand, unless ol dude breaks your finger for it. Makes your eye tear up, limits your vision, unless you wipe it, leaving yourself a very dangerous opening.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, poking someone in the eye is not really the ultimate fight ender everyone thinks, but it's good to help create openeings for the stuff that is.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
therefore, no matter how pretty the average KF'ers technique is, the MMA will kick the ever loving crap out of him.

I don't buy it, I think the average Kung Fuer and the average MMAer both with 3-5 years in of equal hours are going to be a pretty equal match. I really don't belive in the MMA is superior till you get to the uper levels because at that point most Kung Fu guys who are still in the game are focusing more on teaching, where as the MMAer is looking to go fight semi or full pro and has a more combat oriented focus.

I agree with everything else you said though. :)


The avg. KFer is focused on too many things. The avg. MMAer is focused on less. I'd fear the person who trains one tech 1,000 times more than the one who trains 1,000 techs one time

[Xebsball]

yes, we all know youre afraid of my 5 elements

[SevenStar]

The only thing you've got that I'm afraid of is your ugly mug. I will crush your elements one by one.

[Xebsball]

you know what?

your hos are fat and lazy!! :mad:

[Ryu]

2 things.

First, eye shots are not fight enders. They can be used as first strike (sucker shots) from the get go to get your opponent to cover/flinch, etc. while you can more easily deliver heavy KO shots, i.e. hooks, palms, crosses, headbutts, elbows, etc.

Second, I'll post about MMA groundfighting with the same tone the KFers talk about their own groundfighting. That should end the debate. ;)

..."Well I train a much more brutal type of groundfighting called MMA groundfighting. You see, in MMA groundfighting your goal is to finish off the opponent as quickly and as brutally as you can. Usually this means you slam the opponent down on cement, drop into his ribs with your bodyweight (which usually ends in broken ribs) and from here you can use any number of joint wrenches to tear his limbs out! Stuff like ude garame for instance is designed SPECIFICALLY to break, crush, and maim the joints. Not only that, but there are chokes you can pull off that are designed to kill your opponent by blocking off all blood and air to his brain. But by far the most brutal methods in the secret "MMA" groundfighting arsenal is its ability to completely destroy the opponent with what is known as "groundpounding" tactics.
You see, with "groundpounding" tactics, your number one goal is to destroy, cripple, and maim your opponent. You first get dominant position on him so he has NO WAY TO ESCAPE the onslaught! Then you can literally break his facial bones, skull, vertebrae, with numerous elbows, headbutts, knees, etc. all from close quarter, all done in vicious combination while you hover ontop of him. But if this isn't brutal enough, "Groundpounding" also has the lost art of eyegouging and biting!
After crushing your opponents, ribs, and facial bones with your elbows and knees, etc. you can hold him down with mount, and gouge his eyes completely out. Just elbow his face a bit to get him in the position you want, then grab the back of his head, pound his head into the cement a bit, and stick your thumbs as deeply as you can into his eye sockets. Try to hook your thumbs to really destroy the eyes, and sometimes you can even "scoop" them out.
These are "long lost" techniques, so not many people know them.
They're essential to what is called "MMA" groundfighting!
So I would argue that this long lost art of "MMA" groundfighting is by far more brutal than any other!



........................... Sorry for the above being a bit graphic...
My point is that any real "Grappler" can be a "street grappler" if need be. Especially if he trains for it outside his competivive stuff.

The whole notion that the above is not "brutal" is downright silly.

And the notion that the above is not "MMA" groundfighting is silly as well.

It is MMA groundfighting. It IS designed to break, cripple, maim, and kill. If you use these types of "street grappling" tactics in real life, that's usually what will happen.

Ryu

[Royal Dragon]

The rules of the game are suposed to prevent that, the intent is to submit, thearfore, MMA ground is not brutal.

Kung Fu does not have a submission ground system, only the brutal stuff. The intent is to maim, cripple or kill, so much so we banned it in our own competitons even. So Kung Fu Ground is brutal.




















:D

[Royal Dragon]

Oh, and one more thing, Ryu is not Brutal either. :D

[Ryu]

Well of course I'm not brutal. :D
I pretty much love everyone.


But that MMA groundfighting sure is! ;)

Ryu

[Royal Dragon]

He he he he, see what you did, the Whole Brutal argument ws over till YOU started it again!!! :p




















MMA Ground is still not Brutal. :D

[chen zhen]

Originally posted by SevenStar



The avg. KFer is focused on too many things. The avg. MMAer is focused on less. I'd fear the person who trains one tech 1,000 times more than the one who trains 1,000 techs one time

Paradoxically, that is an old chinese KF proverb..;)

[Shaolin-Do]

Well..
This is exciting and fun.
Im gonna dip out.........

[Royal Dragon]

Yet paradoxially, you just posted on my "Are you Brutal" thread ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Xebsball
you know what?

your hos are fat and lazy!! :mad:

Those are bad things to say about your mom

[Xebsball]

i do not understand why you insist in ofending my family members, im disapointed at you Sevenstar

[CAMEL KILLER]

I am soooo tired listening to the "Traditional martial artists" talking about how "brutal" their art is and that MMAers aren't brutal. Feel free to stop by and train with me and my guys. We actually train techniques. We don't punch air, perform pretty ballet type air kicks, do uselss katas, and do alot of other things that are virtually useless in a combat situation. We practice what we preach.
We don't sit around and discuss theory and pretend that the stuff we discuss is actually deadly and because we can do it against an invisible foe we can call ourselves "deadly". most of those techniques don't work with a live person in from of you and I don't mean a person that you have choreographed moves with but a live person that doesn't care what you are going to do and want to take your head off.
Your so called "deadly" techniques are not practiced in a dojo or anywhere else with live partners so how do you know they will work in a real life situation? Sorry but theory gets you killed in the street.

Now, you can use the excuse that the reason Kung Fooers don't do well in MMA is because these so called deadly techniques aren't allowed but even if they were i would put my money on the MMAer by brutal beatdown.
The difference being we as MMAers live what we preach. We don't bother with theory, and if it doesn't work in the gym then it doesn't work on the street. The average Traditional martial artist relyies too much on theory. They were told that this technique is deadly therefore they practice it on an invisible opponent and is led to believe they are now a deadly adversary.
In turn they set themselves up for a huge disapointment when and if they ever get into an altercation on the street.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Xebsball
i do not understand why you insist in ofending my family members, im disapointed at you Sevenstar

ONly because you leave yourself open for it. Actually, I will probably now insult that new avatar you have...

[Chang Style Novice]

I think you're misusing the term "traditional" Camelkiller. It's pretty traditional in most martial arts to occassionally beat the crap out of each other to make sure your sh!t is tight. Which is not to say that the alleged traditionalists who never lay a finger on anyone aren't kidding themselves.

[Ford Prefect]

Haha! I only checked this thread because RD was getting clowned so bad on MMA.tv. RD is obviously a Shaw bros fan.

[Chang Style Novice]

link please?

[CAMEL KILLER]

I highly doubt any of these traditional martial artists are practicing eye gauges and crotch shots (or any other so called deadly strikes) otherwise they would have blinded students or worse walking around. So, no I don't think they go 100% or even close.

[CAMEL KILLER]

Oh, and chang, I suggest you don't go to MMA.TV. You will get ripped apart quite easily. On second thought, come one over.....:D

[Chang Style Novice]

You know what? Grow the fu(k up, idiot. I'm not talking about "eye gauges(sic)" and crotch shots. I'm talking about regular, old fashioned, free sparring. Punches, kicks, locks and throws (da, ti, na, shuai) all permitted at 100%. You stop when someone gets rocked to the point they can't keep going. Happens all the time. If you don't believe that traditional martial artists engage in such things, fine. Remain ignorant. It seems to be your destiny.

[CAMEL KILLER]

:o Me grow up? Oh please Grasshopper. You're the one that lowered yourself to cursing. It is typical of keyboard warriors like yourself.

[Chang Style Novice]

If you can't listen to civil talk, expect people to lose patience with your thick-headedness.

[CAMEL KILLER]

Isn't patience something that your "martial art" teaches? Don't throw away the only saving grace that you learn in the McDojo you belong to.
:o

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by CAMEL KILLER
:o Me grow up? Oh please Grasshopper. You're the one that lowered yourself to cursing. It is typical of keyboard warriors like yourself.

And you lowered yourself by claiming that Chang would get 'ripped apart' on MMA.TV. What kind of machismo nonsense is that?

You just go here and already you're making friends. Well played.


Stuart B.

[Chang Style Novice]

You know, his first post was pretty smart. And then he just decided to start bashing for no reason at all. And responding to points I didn't make. He went downhill REAL fast.

Camel Killer - I don't expect anything from people on this board except reading comprehension. Did they teach you that at whatever mcgradeschool you went to?

[CAMEL KILLER]

Yes I told him he would get ripped apart there. I was being honest with him. I could see from his posts that he isn't the brightest guy in the world and if he showed up there talking like he does here he will get slammed. Has nothing to do with being macho there punchy.

I can care less who likes me or not.

[Chang Style Novice]

Tell you what, humps. Why don't you show me what a big dummy I am by pointing out where I said I practice crotch shots and eye gouges?

[CAMEL KILLER]

Reading comprehension? Hmmmmm, It was an optional course for us Economy Majors. Maybe I should call the faculty at Davis and let them know that they have failed miserably and that some guy that goes by the name of Chang caught there flaw and to fix it asap.

Blah....

[Royal Dragon]

Chang Style, you do realise that the Ego of the MMA is solely dependant on being superior to the "Kung Fu" fantasy they have right?

Whatever you do, don't let them know we actually Do compete, and we actually DO test ourselves through pretty much the same kind of sparring and technique drilling exercises they do. They will burst, and melt into a puddle of steamming goo if they knew that stuff!!

Really man, Those guys *Think* they are better than us, and if you try to point out that two guys, one MMA, and the other Kung Fu, with similar hours in training, are going to be pretty well evenly matched, they throw "Tito" (or whoever is near the top today) into the argument becaue they know it's hard to counter that kind of talent, when in reality 99.999999% of them couldn't survive a fight with Tito either.

[Chang Style Novice]

Do you mean "Economics" perhaps, humps?

Try this - go to the start of the thread and try reading all my posts. Look for the ones where I repeatedly try to talk some sense into RD about the danger of knee strikes from the likes of Don Frye or Mark Kerr and THEN come back and tell me how little I understand.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by SevenStar


ONly because you leave yourself open for it. Actually, I will probably now insult that new avatar you have...

OH fock you moma ina ass for ofending my avatar, man :mad: