View Full Version : My experience in going to the ground in a real fight and some very common street fighter techniques

10-20-2000, 03:46 AM
How many people here honestly go to the ground in a real fight (I'm not limiting it to street fights here, I'm taking about anywhere at anytime)? I find that from my experience, it's really only one of those last-resort type things where you only do it if you have to (i.e. opponent
drags you down with him when you knock him down or issue a takedown/throw and starts wrestling with you or if he knocks you down and gets on top of you).
Please realize that this is from my own experience, your opinions may be different because
of the types of people you fought or the areas that you live in. I'm just interested in knowing people's opinions.
Where I live, it seems that in a real fight if one person knocks another down, he/she starts stomping on the other's body. Most of the fights here are stand-up, almost no ground fights...and that's surprising ( I live in Orange County). I thought that since there are grappling schools and bjj schools here there'd be more ground fights. But I realized why going to the ground isn't so smart unless you HAVE to...for one thing,
you're left open to stompings by the other guy's cohorts. At least, it's easier to defend yourself
when you're standing up and using strikes and not on the ground wrestling with your opponent (I know
that BJJ has strikes from the ground because I read the thread about the guy that used it to defend against 2 attackers, but I'm just saying this from my own experience). Actually, today, when I went around asking questions to guys that saw and have been in real fights, I've noticed that. That is the reason I view ground grappling the way I do. It's because I find that most of the time I also have to deal with the guy's homies. By the way, I've only seen one fight where the combatants actually wrestled on the ground. Their friends started kicking them (by this I mean that one person's friends kicked the opponent, and vice-versa). Did I mention that the
fighters were 14-year-old girls? Heh. It was quite funny the way that one started. First some arguing, then some pushing and shoving, and one ended up on the ground and the other when down and
they clobbered and eye-gouged eachother while they
were wrestling. I saw about 95% of that fight (I left the scene when people came to break it up).
By the way, here are techniques that I see that are commonly used here:
1. jab
2. cross
3. hook
4. uppercut
5. tackle
6. knee strike
7. stomp kick
8. pushing (yeah, I know, this isn't really
a fighting technique per se, but I felt I had to add it in because it seems to start plenty of fights around here)
Basically, most of the fights seem to be full of
jab-cross, or just a quick jab or hook punch, and if they get close enough to grapple, they'll grab you and throw knee strikes. You get knocked down,
you get stomped upon. As for the tackle, one guy
used it extensively in fights. I heard that he used it against a guy that threw a bunch of punches, bowled him over, and got him in a choke hold, ready to snap his neck. He was about to, too. Want to hear the scary part? This happened at the high school that I go to. That guy was lucky that a teacher happened to be there right before he ended up with a broken neck. Just recently, today, I heard about a fight, and that's
what influenced me to post this topic (well that and after seeing so many fights where people get kicked upon when they get knocked down). One person knocked the other over and started stomping
on that person's head, full power. While wearing cleats on the shoes. Ouch. Basically, if you're going to fight from the ground around here, it'd be a good idea to practice plenty of counters to stomp kicks /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif What about you guys, huh? How often do real fights end up with ground fighting where you live and from your experience?

10-20-2000, 04:26 AM
I remember the first bloody fight I saw, I'm not talking those boyhood scraps, but a full-out bloody mess.
I was a freshman in highschool and I saw to seniors get in a fight. I am from Oklahoma, and in case you don't know this is wrestling country.
We have produced more Olympic gold medalists in wrestling than any other state, and every kid grows up wrestling.
Anyway, This senior on the wrestling team gets in a fight with a football player over a girl.
The football player punched the wrestler in the face and broke his nose and sent blood everywhere!
The wrestler responded by shaking it off and then shooting in and maneuvering behind the football player where he picks him up from the waist, turns him upside down, and dumps him straight on his head into the marble flooring of the school hallway.
The guys head split open instantly and blood pooled out all over the marble while the football player laid there unconsciouse.
It was pretty scarry, needless to say. The wrestler was taken to jail, and I think he spend about a year in jeuvenile jail and never ended up graduating from school.
The football player was retarded after that and had to go to a special school.
But anyway, I guess it all depends on where you are from. Here in Oklahoma you ****ed better know how to grapple, because any old joe you get into it with in a bar could have been wrestling his whole life, and about 99% of all the street fights here go straight to the ground.....on purpose.

10-20-2000, 06:58 PM

10-25-2000, 02:46 AM
ok call me a jerk but for some evil reason,when you siad the football player was retarded for thr the rest of his life,my first thought was "arent most football players already retarded?".sorry,manIm a jerk,had to say it though

10-25-2000, 04:02 AM
That must have been horrible to watch. I agree, no only OK, but the whole midwest and most of the country is "Wrestling Country" what other MA is taught in most high schools and elementary schools?

8Step Sifu

Kong Jianshen
10-25-2000, 05:21 AM
I have to agree with the orginal story about not wanting to go to the ground. Not in a real streetfight! Just think about it all he has to use is minimal force and your head can be caught between his blow and the floor! His buddys will stomp you! his girlfriend! His brother! heh no way. There is glass, rocks, sticks, cement, its limitless. Besides if u find out u MUST run.. well have fun standing up! I must say learning it is important too. Because if just END up there its best to know how to hold your own. But part of being a good stand up fighter is NOT allowing them to shoot in and take u down. Force them where u want them. My opponent fights my fight.

Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts

Rolling Elbow
10-25-2000, 05:56 AM
Ground is a last resort for me.., realistically i train it for the times i may end up there. It is not however, ny primary goal..i prefer to hit and get the opponent down and then follow up with stomps or breaks..

We do (and the russians do allot of this too) allot of kick and stomp evasion from the ground for incoming kicks to the head and body so i am quite comfortable being knocked down and dealing with these types of attacks..then again it is taijutsu and usually i am beyond bragging but this sytems is truly amazing and IS complete despite what many people think..it all depends on the teacher.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

Master Po
10-25-2000, 07:21 AM
I agree with the original post for the most
part. I just wanted to add a few things.

First if you were to have someone, maybe a friend of a friend, start trouble with you after having a few too many drinks... I would rather not eye jab-head butt-knee to the groin right off the bat. I think is shows a great deal of skill to take the "attacker" down and control him with pain or render him unconcious but unharmed with a choke. Its the gentle side of my martial arts (jui-jitsu means jentle art) Again this is not a assault but it is a situation that might come up. (OK I know I need new friends)

Also I must say that BJJ is one of the most fun and addicting art I have had the pleasure of practicing. The chess match that takes place between two good jiu-jitsu guys is amasing!!! One of the reasons I train so much BJJ is its so darn fun.

Anyway in a life or death attack in an alley/bar/whatever I plan on my attacker being the only guy on the ground. Then again you never know so its good to have plan B.

MonkeySlap Too
10-25-2000, 06:31 PM
Yeah, I went right to the ground once, but that was to pull someone off a buddy of mine. And since the attackers buddies were all broken on the ground or had fled, I felt safe doing it. I nearly got my eye gouged out for the trouble, it wasn't until I broke something on him that his thumb left my eye.

On the other hand, I have fought some dangerous wrestlers. I think my Shuai Chiao skills kept them from taking me down, but I knew throwing them wasn't the answer unless I had a flawless throw and dropped them on thier head. I resolved in one 'real' fight to striking 'soft spots' like the eyes and throat. It was a real chess game, and I was almost taken down several times. Once he was suitably softened up, a lock and throw was inevitable. Nontheless, victory was not a foregone conclusion - straight grappling, this guy probably would have got me, but he lacked a stand up game - giving me the fight.

I have also trained some wrestlers in martial arts and I learned as much as they did by taking them out on the floor and wrestling according to thier rules.

Just as every practitioner needs to quantify his game and train for everything, so too should every teacher be willing to walk into uncomfortabloe new territory where you may not win. After all, isn't that what a fight is?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Paul DiMarino
10-29-2000, 08:48 PM
I've gotten in a few scraps in my day. Some of them went to the ground, some didn't. Most of the fights I got into started face-to-face, so fists, knees, elbows, and heads were the first thing flying at you from all angles. It's not like you actually squared off against each other and formed some sort of strategy. I really can't speak of ground fightings effectiveness in my street fights because I haven't been in a fight since I started learning BJJ. A solid close range system would be my preference in teh street though.

10-30-2000, 02:38 PM
All to often lately I've seen people get caught up in the fad of BJJ. All to often people want to
study "the best" or "most effective" martial arts. Which is crap. If you rely on grappling to beat a grappler, whoever knows the most counters
has shih, or strategic advantage. Whereas boxing is more unpredictable and harder to counter.
Thus the arguments for learning multiple systems is that it will make you more adaptable to change.
Which is also incorrect. Moving from one form to another is still form and the "skilled commander"
will eventually expose your weaknesses for there will be many. Master Sun says: appear to have form without having form. (and no, Bruce Lee did not pioneer this concept);Sun Tzu:The art of warefare, well before Bruce Lee's time. Any way what I'm getting at is that a good martial arts system will not confine you to "one way" , but open the doors to many. 6months here and there with multiple systems just makes you a beginner
many times over. Knowing many techniques is not the same as understanding the multiples of their application.

10-30-2000, 02:51 PM
If you watch UFC's you'll see how you need to know groundfighting techniques incase someone else takes you to the ground. My hung gar shr-fu would always tell us to never go to the ground. There's a girl I've studied hung gar with who I could never beat due to her being bigger, stronger, and equal-to-more experience. But she'd be defenseless if I took her to the ground. I've been studying bjj for only 1 month but feel that I've learned more practical fighting skills in that time than I could get in a year of kung fu. Bjj is fun! And if you don't know it you're at a disadvantage

10-31-2000, 03:34 AM
U.F.C. is a sport, sport has rules. The U.F.C caters to grapplers by restricting other arts. For
example: While A struggles to put B in an arm bar, in a fraction of that time, the B can grab A's windpipe and crush it. I speak only for myself when I say I don't study a sport. If you wish to take a fight to the ground, that is your buisiness, but it is not necessarry nor does it give you stategic advantage(shih).

[This message was edited by reemul on 10-31-00 at 07:40 PM.]

10-31-2000, 03:39 AM
I know some BJJ students, and they are not so quick to assume that going to the ground or trying to go to the ground gives them the advantage, and they have been studying for several years.

Master Po
10-31-2000, 05:38 PM
Accually there were no restrictions on neck or windpipe attacks in the first few UFC's. Yet this never happened once... Maybe its just not as easy as it sounds when someone is sitting on your chest pounding on your head.

Anyway there have been many rules added since the early days. Some of these are to protect the fighters which I think is good and some were to make the sport look more "acceptable" to the public which I dont really like. Things like not kicking a downed fighter really changed the game alot. Thank sen. McCane for that one. Anyway I'm just rambling..

11-01-2000, 12:17 AM
UFC is a sport, you said it yourself, also for all the BJJ hype, if you recall in one of the latter UFC's I don't recall which one exactly, but the winner was a kickboxer.

Master Po
11-01-2000, 01:22 AM
UFC (and other MMA events) are very much a sport and a very honarable sport in my opinion. I wasn't really tring to disagree with you and in fact striking skills are far very important in MMA (mixed martial arts). For instance this russan guy Igor V. is famous for KOing almost all his opponents on his feet. Mo Smith was a kickboxer/Muay Thai guy who beat a lot of wrestlers to become champ for a while. Vanderlie Sylva is a Muay Thai guy who also often knocks out guys before they can take him down.

What do all these guys have in common??? They all have at least some ground skill to use in case the fight goes there. No matter how good you are someone will be better and that person might be a wrestler. At least know enough to get you self out of trouble if you do get taken down so you can get back up on your feet and get them back in your game.

But then again why listen to me?? Train the best way you know how... I'm just some guy on the internet /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Master Po
11-01-2000, 01:27 AM
By the way. BJJ guys dont do nearly as good as they used to. Royce did great at the time but no one knew submissions that great then. If you should be ****ed at anyone it should be wrestlers. They are winning most of the titles these days. I know I hate all those wrestlers out there. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rolling Elbow
11-01-2000, 04:51 PM
All I can say to the bjj people out there is this: bjj is good and it teaches ground skills.., it does not however teach anything new that hasn't or isn't covered in judo,sambo, other russian martial arts, some forms of chinese ground fighting, and ninjutsu..

You are at an advantage if you learn ground skills PERIOD- not bjj alone. I suggest those bjj people here who love thisr art, try taking it to the ground with a ninjutsu practitioner...firstly, at the sport level, we learn everything you guys do in bjj, on the street and realistic level- we learn how to destroy all the nerves and hit teh soft parts on the body making it impossible to get away with half the crap they teach you in bjj...so just keep an open mind. I remember one of our guys has cross trained in bjj..when he came back and grappled with our instructor, he kept trying all these locks and holds...needless to say they did not work..he was getting toasted by the hits..So to Meredith, your sifu may have been a tad unrealistic by saying never go to the ground by choice (because who wants to right? it is a tactical disadvantage if there are more than one opponent), but he was probably anaccomplished stand up fighter..something which you will now not learn much of in bjj

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

11-01-2000, 08:27 PM
True, to a point, any ground skills is better then none but some are better then others. I would also like to point out a great many BJJ stylist crosstrain in a striking art. I know where I train there are a number of students who either instruct in same striking style or are also students in some striking style. It all really comes down to the way you train and how good of a instructor you are training with.-ED /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

11-02-2000, 03:36 AM
for a striker to beat a grappler at grappling, he has to train grappling as much and as hard as the grappler. why play the other person's game? wouldn't it be more efficient to learn how not to be taken down (ala sprawling, striking, distancing...etc)? if i went to take 6 months of bjj just to "complete" my arsenal, woudln't that just give me a false sense of security as my 6 months of training would mean nothing against any trained grappler.


Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

11-02-2000, 07:59 AM
Actually, it would more likely give you a basis to better understand the ground fighters game so that you could properly develope and understand such techniques as sprawling, sweeps, and takedowns. Also another thing that six months of ground fighting training would give you is the ability to take another strikers game plan away from him by giving you the ability to force them to play whatever game you choose. It is far easier for a ground fighter to force a striker to play his game then the other way around. All the grapper needs to do is perform one good takedown, and if the striker isn't used to fighting grapplers or is inexperienced then it doesn't even need to be a good takedown. Once on the ground you will need to know how to escape from the mount, otherwise you are not going to be getting back up to your feet. BTW, I myself am a striker first and only recently have I been grappling, I can tell you from first hand experience it is two totally different things to train as a striker with a little anti-grappling techniques on the side and to actually train with grapplers.

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

11-02-2000, 09:18 AM
Sorry if iI mispelled your name.I would like to adress your windpipe speculations.First off if you have never been armbarred or applied it to another live person you have no basis for your counter.What you think will workis very far from reality without experiencing it first hand.I haven't a clue about your ground experience but I am very secure in thinking if you have someone atacking your arm from any of the armbar positions(I.E. north south mount guard etc)you have to grab your own arm and properly know how to roll out.If one was to give his arm in hopes to get to my windpipe he would have about 1 to 2 seconds before your arm snaps.


Here is a old picture of
royce armbarring Jason delucia from the guard position.I just cant fathom any windpipe or eye poking techniques.

This is Alan Goes seconds away from executing a arm bar from the "mount" or top position.Once again the guy on the bottom is concerned with getting his arm back as opposed to windpipe crushes.

By the way that kickboxer you were talking about that won the U.F.C, well his name is Maurice Smith.Here ic a nice picyure of him getting armlocked from the north south position.Hopefully I cleared up some misconceptions about your arm lock defense.dont take my word for it you should go find a reputable groundfighting school and see for your self.

I really dont need to adress your comments about sport martial arts.I guess i would rather tain in a sport than train in speculation and fantasy.


11-02-2000, 09:33 PM

i'm no grappler, but isn't the position in the last picture a sidemount?


thanks for your reply. i practice wingtsun and i've had plenty of fun learning and rolling with friends who do judo, catch, or bjj. i emphasize the word fun. its a great workout and enjoyable but i'm under no illusion that i am now familiar with groundwork...heheh. so i thought about taking up some bjj since there are some schools around with cesar gracie i think and michael jen. however i only want to concentrate on studying wingtsun for now. my question is this? is it more beneficial for me as a WINGTSUN student to spar with my friends and use my own art to practice against 1) takedowns and 2) groundfighting OR should i actually go TAKE bjj? wouldn't learning bjj kinda hamper my progress in wingtsun since i am learning how to deal with grapplers in a bjj way, other than a wingtsun way?


Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

11-03-2000, 12:04 AM
Either path you choose to follow will only serve to help you. Personally for me, I have found from my own experience through JKD both Jun Fan and Concepts that practicing against grapplers through my style really helped me prepare but in no way has it even come close to having actually taken BJJ and training under a top rate BJJ grappler. It simply comes down to training and time spent on grappling, grappling arts take up a lot more time to become good at. It takes the average person training in BJJ one to two years to progress from a white belt to the next level which is a blue belt. Most other styles simply cannot spend the time to develope grappling skills like the grappling arts can. I say learn some basics about grappling and practice against some real grapplers using your art and some of the basics of grappling. This will prepare you against most unskilled opponents that may take you to the ground. If you are worried about train grapplers or just ot develope your grappling skills to a higher level then you may want to consider a good BJJ school or maybe a good Shooto school. Lates.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

11-03-2000, 03:02 AM
The side mount and "north south " position are exactly the same thing.It depends on what you prefer.If you have a chance to roll with Ceasar Gracie I would highly re
commend it.


11-04-2000, 07:13 PM
ATENG...suprisingly I have trained in WING CHUN and found that BJJ compliments it very well...I do feel that you need to stick to a style long term though...so you sticking with WING TSUN is fine! You may only need to learn enuf of BJJ to escape the STREET REALITY positions...BJJ is about getting superior positions...my opinion is for you to learn to get out of BAD positions...learn how to get away from the bottom position and stand back up...learn to get away from the side mount position and get back up...learn to STOP takedowns...you should be OK...I don't think you'll run into BJJ guys in real fighting...but there are PLENTY of rushers...hahaha!!!


11-05-2000, 12:54 AM
"UFC is a sport, you said it yourself, also for all the BJJ hype, if you recall in one of the latter UFC's I
don't recall which one exactly, but the winner was a kickboxer. "

Of course it is note worthy to point out that Maurice Smith has been training grappling for a number of years with Frank Shamrock and Tsuyoshi Kohsaka. he was not a pure kick boxer, he was a cross trained fighter at the time he beat up Coleman, if he had no grappling training Coleman would have easily won the fight

11-05-2000, 01:10 AM
I've found the mantis-stance to be a very good stance if you want to stay standing. You have a very light front-foot which you can defend yourself with or use to avoid an attack ment to put you to the ground. You have two hands and one leg that is totally free, pretty good.
If you fall to the ground you will be very happy if you practised handling the situation. My best advice is to learn as many ways to get up as fast as you can. Practice roll and spin-combinations to get up fast and move a lot while doing it to make it harder to kick you.

If you use the mantis-stance and some good foot and handwork your opponent won't be able to get close to you so he/she can't land on top of you which prevents him from holding you down, smashing your head to the ground etc.

I don't suffer from nsanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

11-05-2000, 04:14 AM
No, if you want to learn how not to be taken down go train with a few judokas and wrestlers, then you'll learn the REAL way to stay on your feet, not some mystic stance and rolls & flips that won't work.

11-05-2000, 04:55 AM
knowing how not to go to the ground is even better.

11-05-2000, 07:32 AM
Are you at ITG?I am.These dudes are funny.

11-05-2000, 09:22 PM
thanks for your replies guys. i'll see if my financial situation allows me to check out bjj..heheh.


my bad...for some reason i alwoys thought "northsouth" was the poisition in which both guys have their heads in opposite directions. like the position you're in when applying the four-corners hold from judo.


Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

11-08-2000, 03:44 PM
ATENG...actually I think you can learn to apply BJJ through video tapes or seminars...it's easier to grapple in my opinion than learning the striking arts...primarly cause in grappling you're right there feeling your opponent out...in striking you'll have to use your footwork to get to your opponent and hope that timing would work!


11-08-2000, 05:40 PM
I have to ask, How Old are most of you who are responding here?

11-08-2000, 09:11 PM
I have to ask, how old are most of you guys here?

11-08-2000, 09:13 PM
I have to ask, how old are most of you guys?

11-14-2000, 12:38 AM
You are correct. The north/south (sometimes called the 69)is the position in which both fighters' bodies are parallel. Both fighters feet are directly opposite.

The side control position is with the fighers' bodies perpendicular to each other.

Some people also call the side control postition the side mount. However, others refer to the side mount as the full mount with the bottom person on his side and the top person with one knee raised (in front of/above the opponent's stomach) and sitting back over the other foot

11-16-2000, 10:32 PM
thanks KF,

haven't seen you post for awhile. 69 eh? hahahaa...i've also heard the guard referred to as the "*****'s" position by a friend of mine who trained with tony ceccine.


Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

11-16-2000, 10:36 PM
that was "w h o r e" btw...heheh

Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

12-01-2000, 07:38 PM
From my experience when one person in a fight has his mind on taking it to the ground there is a better than 50% chance it will happen. With all else being equal, gravity pulls us all down. By the way, when the kick boxer won the UFC it was because the ref stood them up from a deadlock postion on the ground.If not then they might still be there. Now a days, the best stand up fighters also have a solid foundation in there ground fighting skills. One thing I have always wondered is were are these stand up fighters fighting there fight.
Unless you live in a kung-fu movie you are on the ground. OO /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif