Versus Kicks - opinions ?

[KingMonkey]

Guys, do any of you think trying to bong or yup-gerk kicks is a good idea. If so have you used this against someone other than a WC training partner who's probably rubbish at kicking.

I pose this question because I hate the static bong/yup solution to kicks and think it is crap on so many levels.

E.g - probably wouldnt stop a good kick, relies on standing in place and being a target, gives your opponent time for a follow up, no built in redundancy like moving forward so if you track the kick wrong you take a full power kick to the ribs/head/supporting leg ouch.

I much prefer getting into range with gann or gwat if necessary ASAFP and punching.

Thoughts on this ?

[[Censored]]

Thoughts on this ?

Bong gerk does not remain?

[KingMonkey]

All, just a request, if your contribution is likely to be neither

a) useful or
b) genuinely funny

can you just keep it to yourselves or go and post it on a different thread.

Thanks.

[PaulH]

Okay, if the bong gerk is used first just to deflect his kick, then it should change to a sidekick and move further down to hit the next closest targets like his other knee or just a little higher on the ankle in one smooth action. This is what Censored mentioned earlier. The other option is your bong gerk can move around knocking off his remaining supporting leg. I prefer Ernie's shin kick better than the bong gerk as his kick's power goes right into you and still keeps that forward energy for other options instead of spinning around too much like Muay Thai kickers.

Regards,

[Ultimatewingchun]

King Minkey:

Check out a post entitled : LESSON 6 - LINEAGE, POLITICS, AND THE T-STANCE.

It appears on page 5 of the thread entitled: Understanding TWC

About tow-thirds of the way through the post is a description of ONE WAY to deal with kicks that you might find interesting.

[KingMonkey]

Thanks for the tip.
I read it and it seemed to be saying the opposite to what I feel.
That jamming kicks with kicks is plan A while using footwork (in your case the side step, in mine the circling forward step) is plan B.

I would say it should be very much the other way round with yup/bong/jamming shin kicks a last resort option if you are surprised and dont have time to do anything else.

[Ultimatewingchun]

King Monkey:

You and I are not necessarily in disagreement on this:

Plan A - jam kicks by "stealing the march" - oftentimes means
actually kicking/jamming his leg with the bottom of my foot.

Plan B - sidestepping footwotk when it's too late to steal the march.

Plan C - jam kicks by lifting into various positioin (ie.- bong or tan gerk) when the timing is really a problem...because he stole the march on you.

[KingMonkey]

Well I do agree with your last post with one proviso. The plan A stuff you list (I think) assumes a closer range than plan B or C.

[Ernie]

king monkey
look at from a combative situation , try and remove all passive actions from kicking or intercepting ,
i look at all motions and try to inflict pain on the way if there are any obstructions ,
in the case of the ''bong'' kick i fire in on a tighter angle , '' a diagnol striaght line to borrow a phrase from david peterson''
and my inten and focus is on the support leg not the incoming kick , i might miss the kick but still get the support leg , eat a little to give him a more devestating blow.
if i make contact with the leg i get that nice bone on bone pain infliction which destroys the oncoming kick and i still get the support leg , if i'm having a real good day i nail his shin bone with the peak of my knee and this gives him a nice little shock and mostly drops him ,
since i am taking a subtle angle i don't suffer the same pain he is recieveing ,
it is a bit of a motification though , the intent of a thai kick but the line and structure of a wing chun ''bong '' kick
it's really hard to put into words but very easy to pull off , the benifits are you inflict pain,occupy center and take out the support leg in one action .
i have even used this type of kick to shatter a oncoming striaghtblast by knocking out there horse stance but it takes real good timing .
hope this helps

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Guys, do any of you think trying to bong or yup-gerk kicks is a good idea. If so have you used this against someone other than a WC training partner who's probably rubbish at kicking.

not all my training partners are rubbish kickers, we have several pepole in or school wuth soilid karate, tkd and kickboxing backgrounds. Also i activly seeek to spar with better kickers and kickboxers, the chi gerk i have learned has yet to fail me, if i perform it properly.

I pose this question because I hate the static bong/yup solution to kicks and think it is crap on so many levels.

static solutions for combat!?! yup, on many levels. however, chi gerk is not static, it it the trained response of the legs that WC develops in order to defeat low line attacks.

E.g - probably wouldnt stop a good kick, relies on standing in place and being a target, gives your opponent time for a follow up, no built in redundancy like moving forward so if you track the kick wrong you take a full power kick to the ribs/head/supporting leg ouch.

no need to stop a good kick, just get on it and make it not hit its target, deflate its power and or punish the attacker for kicking. One should always strive to be moveing forward, so bong and tan gerk should happen in the midst of that movement, as they kick, you take over that space. a kick that will hit my ribs/head should not get a chi gerk response, but a kick to the supporting leg and or a shueng gahn/ kwoon sau type motion. a kick to my supporting leg will be met either with gerk su gerk, or a chi gerk response. Proper training and ballance make it very possiblee to do this.

I much prefer getting into range with gann or gwat if necessary ASAFP and punching.

yup get in range and take them out before the kicks start. I spar and have let a few good kickers get moveing on me, very hard to deal with, but if i move in right off, they have no chance.

Thoughts on this ?

you've got em, I am as big a beliver in chi gerk as I am in chi sao.

[KingMonkey]

Guys,

Thanks for the responses and er not trying to pick holes in your responses but I have to ask a couple of questions....

Ernie

What I think you're describing is the following....

Your opponent throws a roundhouse kick with their left leg.
You bong with your left which goes pretty much straight, aiming to hit his right (support leg),
with a slightly leading knee to fend off his roundhouse ??

If correct I'm stupefied by this.
My first question would be how long are your legs ?
Do you simply rely on better leg speed and reflexes to avoid this being a simple one for one ?
Would you seriously advocate this in preference to just stepping forward and punching or is it as previously touched on with UWC something you view as an emergency response?

Maybe you're imagining a scenario where you have already bridged the gap but I'm more thinking about the initial contact where the kicker is initially out of range and moves in to kick.

Odder

How can you bong gerk and move forward? I think you mean bong gerk then falling into forward step (?), fair enough but that is bound to be slower than stepping in the first place.

[Ernie]

kingmonkey

Your opponent throws a roundhouse kick with their left leg. You bong with your left which goes pretty much straight, aiming to hit his right (support leg),

nope led left or right is offered as bait . this is done from matching leads so if he fires his rear right round at my exposed lead left i counter with my rear right which comes on a sight angle but tighter then a traditional thai kick '' my shin cuts right through center as i advance to eat his position , once my knee gets to center '' not past that would be over commited and require recovery'' i extend and shot the heel into the support leg , kind of like to kicks in one action while moving forward ,
if i destroy his kick fine , bonus points if i don't i still shoot out the support leg, and draw his attention on the low line whick leaves the high line wide open for the hands .


Do you simply rely on better leg speed and reflexes to avoid this being a simple one for one ?
timing and to be honest i have very fast and powerful kicks '' back ground in savate /thai / panajakman '' filipino lowline kicking ''
so i probably have an edge but if you understand the line you are covering and the trajectory it's not that hard to do . i acually just modified the bong gerk kicking drill i was taught , just beefed it up a bit and got explosive with it
a real basic way to look at is lets say some one punches you with there right hand and you bong with you right bong say '' this would be a incorrect bong'' once the center point is reached by you instantly turn your bong into a tan and attack center .
this is a ruff concept idea with the legs there are different elevations and variable but you can see the trajectory.
now if instead of the forearm on the bong you could make the cntact poin the peak of your elbow '' the point of the knee on the leg '' and bingo pain infliction and you destroy the limb and buy yourself alittle time to insert most desirable termination tool.



Would you seriously advocate this in preference to just stepping forward and punching or is it as previously touched on with UWC something you view as an emergency response?
i advocate pin infliction on entry when every the oppertunity arises '' don't chase hands but don't be passive either '' destroy what is offered on the way to center .
it's much easier and safer to entr on a guy that is shocked by pain and emotionally out of the fight , then to go in punching a fresh aware fighter . i don't advacate trading punches nose to nose , not effecient and you might have to eat some knuckles to the grill for no reason ,
i never want to know how good the other guy is i never what to see his second and third action , just zap him while he is dealing with that disect the corpse

i know it's hard to visualize fire away if you have anymore questions

[PaulH]

Since you asked for it, Ernie. I always wonder how practical is your kicks anyway when the other guy wear heavy boots or shoes. Pain infliction has never been easier.

Regards,

[Ernie]

hey paul
i don't realy get your point on the boot thing but i'll try to answe

first of pain infliction is not our primary goal it's just '' oh by the way '' if you get it great if you don't your still on your path towards center or to break his position or structure some how .
bone on bone or bone on muscle is the best rik to reward ratio when it comes to causing that flinch''frozen moment in time '' that you want . shin to shin , knee to shin , hell if your wearing boots great toe kick him on his lead shin or calf or thigh or groin on entry ,
you can intecept a punch with your oen punch but better with the peak of your elbow '' i have killed alot of boxers jabs with that one ''
the real key is to remove all passive actions from your defense and attack .
it's a concept more then a technique

back in the bare fisted boxer days they would intercept a jab with the top of the skull and break the guys wrist , the concept has been around for a long time .
i have been on the other end of this more times then i care to mention , so it interest me and that's why i play with it in the name of personal research
another boot thing the person who taught me some savate would were metal tipped cowboy boots when ever he would go out , many years ago in a bar fight he ruptured a guys kidney with one quick toe kick , there was a huge size difference the savate guy was the smaller . just a little tid bit

[PaulH]

What I means is it is too risky to kick when the other guy wear boots or sharp pointed toe shoes. Would you kick at all when you see the other guys can counter your kick with with steel pointed toe shoes?

[Ernie]

good question ,
i'm not good at initiating a kick i'm better at intercepting motion, so know i wouldn't i would use my foot work and control distance leaving me with more options .

[Andrew Williams]

Hi King Monkey.

Just some clarification on your question. Are you talking about starting the fight at a measured distnace, by that I mean, are you and the kicker squared up, you adopting a WC stance, he a what-ever stance, ready to have a crack at one-another? Where is his kick aimed? Is he moving to you, you to him, or both on the hop?

Regards Andrew W.

[KingMonkey]

Ernie

Now I understand a little better. I was thinking of the starting point being WC guy in IRAS rather than one foot forward.......... I imagine that with 50/50 weight distribution or 30/70 you could combine a move forward with a bong as the lead right transitions to being the supporting leg. I will try this with one of my classmates. I'm guessing being the guy getting bonged must get real old real quick though :-)


Andrew

Hi.

are you and the kicker squared up, you adopting a WC stance, he a what-ever stance, ready to have a crack at one-another?

Yes

Where is his kick aimed?

Could be roundhouse or straight, could be knees, ribs or even head. The fact that using the bong and yup need you to more accurately track the incoming kick is one of the things that bothers me and sparked the original question.

Is he moving to you, you to him, or both on the hop?

He closes to kicking range

I posed this question because I had been practising bong or yup gerk against this and hated it when compared to the solution I'm more familiar with which is move aggressively forward at the first sign of a twitch using gaan or gwat against the leg and circle step with punches.

[OdderMensch]

kingmonkey
that will work for a higher kick, to the ribs or head, and is often taught in conjunction with the use of a chi gerk movement. i see it as this, once the attacker is in kicking range the WC fighter should be in moton, towards the opponent ideally, and should be rooted in the rear leg.

should a kick begin as the WC fighter moves forward, it should cross the line of the forward leg, or that space should be eaten by the WCer's step. should the kicker be so far away that the kick can be seen, the front leg should rise into the 'dok lop ma' or single leg stance, then use the chi gerk skills to determine what action the leg undertakes. should it come low, the leg should feel what side it is on, and respond in the same manner that a bridge arm responds, most likely with bong, or tan.

should the leg come high, the arms should be in place already and the leg can be used t position the fighter to a better angle or counterattack.

Sound ok so far?

[Andrew Williams]

Hi Monkey King

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are you and the kicker squared up, you adopting a WC stance, he a what-ever stance, ready to have a crack at one-another? aw

Yes. mk

I ask this because in my experience it is an extremely rare occurrence that a fight will start this way (at kicking distance) or that once punching distance or grappling distance is reached that the fight will then go to kicking distance again. Likewise I am not altogether sure that many fighters (real fighters in real fighting) kick above their own umbilical line (and this rarer today than the recent past) , that is unless they are messing about with the incompetent. aw
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Where is his kick aimed? aw

Could be roundhouse or straight, could be knees, ribs or even head. The fact that using the bong and yup need you to more accurately track the incoming kick is one of the things that bothers me and sparked the original question. mk

I agree with the idea that a powerful kick will destroy these structures (as mentioned earlier by you), if the defender is static. And that the price for accuracy on the part of the defender requires that a high price may need be paid. This is a point proved repeatedly to me whilst training with people who have truly strong kicking (and punching) abilities. At the very least the control of COG will be challenged, therefore the balance and stabilising mechanisms will then have to be employed keeping you upright, rather than be applied aggressively.

Likewise, when mobile the application of any action designed to deflect or check the incoming limb tends to mean that much energy and/or time (relative to the fight time) is spent on the kick when it might best be employed in attacking the opponent directly

However, as easy as it is to suggest that kicking distance is finite, and is a range that can be easily controlled, we should not forget that there are many kickers who are aware of how to maintain, whether pre-fight or whilst actually fighting, their preferred distance. These guys are dangerous, as it usually means that they require only a small window of opportunity to inflict maximum damage, unlike the average dojo dueller or the compliant WC partner. I have also found that the kick is rarely applied in isolation, that it is usually part of a combination and what follows is often more dangerous than the kick. It may also be that the kick is a diversion, that you are being asked a question, the trend in WC seems to be to answer that question somewhat predicably.... aw
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Is he moving to you, you to him, or both on the hop? aw

He closes to kicking range. mk

I posed this question because I had been practising bong or yup gerk against this and hated it when compared to the solution I'm more familiar with which is move aggressively forward at the first sign of a twitch using gaan or gwat against the leg and circle step with punches. Mk

I am with you. Negate the kick by not being at a distance where the kick can be applied optimally, attack the kicker. This done by any means. Train this diligently. It is a tactic not a technique, it is nonetheless an applicable one. aw

Regards Andrew W.

[KingMonkey]

Odder and Andrew,

Thanks for the replies guys. This has been a very useful thread for me.

To sum up my what I'm taking away from it..........


I was right to be worried and doubtful about the efficacy of a static bong/yup gerk defense.

Aggressive intent is the key with yup and bong gerk as with the hands.

I need to work on my stability a little more to make these work for me :-)

[Bui-Jee-D]

Personally I believe its the way that chi gerk is taught. The bong gerk is actually a very effective techniqe to stop the round house kick and the hook kicks.
In the school which I attend, we also have several black belts from different arts. For example, we've built into our curriculum a good deal of karate stuff and aikido stuff. It's always good to have a respectful appreciation of the artforms and how to deal with different styles from a WC perspective.
More to your point, you shoiuld never find yourself standing still feeling like a target. Good chi gerk techniques go hand in hand with good diagonal, forward and backward stepping techniques. Knowing how to heun ma correctly, with good balance and solid structure coupled with correct timing (which is obtained through years of training, especially on the Jong to learn distance).
Encountering as solid kicker as a WC artist, you must first gauge your safe and unsafe distances...for example, never be at the end of your kicker's feet, always be inside the range so you can move, like huen man inwards towards his center and quickly jam him with a bong gerk before he gets a chance to move in.
Simply standing and waiting for the kick to come, THEN, responding will leave even the most fluent WC artists in some trouble.
Remember, as WC artists we WANT to be up-close and personal. Either be outside a kicker's legs, or inside so he can't load up. Also, a good kicker will have the mechanics as such so that when he steps in, you won't be able to tell if you are getting a side kick, hook kick, crescent kick combination of these because the loading mechanics are the same. Look for the visual cues, then heun ma off center, then back on his center and drive right through him.
Imagine yourself in relation to the kicker in concentric circles. The kicker, wants you away from him so he can step in so he needs to be more than arms reach away. General rule, add about a foot to what you think arms lenght of your attacker is and that is where his feet will reach. If you close that gap, you take away his ability to load and that is when bong gerk, tan gerk, or gan gerk work beautifully.