Interesting Video from Emptyflower

[truewrestler]

"A Bagua guy fought in a Taiwan kungfu tournament. No head contact for that year."

Video: http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/video/Bagua_fight.WMV

Download Page: http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/johnwang1.html

Thoughts?

[red5angel]

bagua guy wasn't aggressive enough. he seemed to have good form and good root but he just wasn't getting in there.

[truewrestler]

Please explain. I didn't think he had much going for him. He did seem to know a little about poping hips or sprawling to prevent a bad takedown.

It was funny how he used stances at the beginning with his hands in strange position but by the end he just stood there with his fists clinched and threw punches.

[chen zhen]

We've had this discussion already.

[Xebsball]

if i recall the vid...

it sucked

[red5angel]

he had some good stops, he kept his form for the most part but was showing his tiredness towards the end. For the most part I just don't think he was aggressive enough he sort of sat back and let the other guy take the initiative. I am not sure what the other guys practices. Shui Chao?

[norther practitioner]

Different fight, still another guy in yellow....lol
a bit different then the last one...

[truewrestler]

"I am not sure what the other guys practices. Shui Chao?"

I hope he doesn't practice Shuai Chao or he reallly sucks.

"We've had this discussion already"

I saw another video from the tournament here but hadn't seen this one.

"he kept his form for the most part but was showing his tiredness towards the end"

I thought he lost his "form" because he was getting frustrated and they weren't doing anything but make him look cool

[red5angel]

truewrestler - uh no. I don't know what you are looking to expect from reality, however I though the guy held out pretty well as far as stance and form go. Everyone gets tired and sloppy.

[truewrestler]

I hear ya but what I mean is his stance didn't seem to help him, so he clinched his fists and switched to a more natural stance .... almost like a boxer... and he seemed to actually do a little better. Just one observation.

I thought both of them looked sloppy from the get go :p

[truewrestler]

They both definitely got some good shots in.

It would be interesting to see one of them against a Kyoshkin(spelling is probably wrong) Karateka. Their competitions are basically bare knuckle kickboxing with no shots to the head.

[red5angel]

"and he seemed to actually do a little better"


I think I might disagree here. I don't think it has anything to do with his stance. My theory is that if you watch him, he is too tense in the beginning. Later he gets tired and sort of naturally relaxes. When he starts to relax, even tired he starts to get more succesful, although still not aggressive enough. I don't think his stance has anything to do with his success.

[truewrestler]

Yeah you might be right. I watched a little of it against and notice he started bringing his arms/elbows down to his side for defense after taking punches to the ribs.

[red5angel]

The other thing is that fighting is never clean. While some fighters are more precise and more disciplined then others to me, it always "looks" sloppy.

[Royal Dragon]

The Bagua guy sucked. He didn't even have the structure right. You can see "Arch" in his back throughout most of the fight. If you look at his circle walking, he clearly drops one shoulder, and raises the other in a "Hunched" sort of way very similar to Chung Moo Quan Bagua. His attacks were often long ranged "lunges" almost. At one point, he shot a punch in so over extended that he practically begged for a single leg take down, and got his wish. I have never seen Bagua players throw thier balance completly out of wack like that to take a long distance, over extended shot like that. The guy in Black is a San Shou kick boxer who reacently started Bagua, and only nows how to circle walk. He does not have even the basics of Bagua right nor does he how to fight with it yet. He seemed to do better towards the end when he dropped the Bagua and resorted to his base style.

The guy in Yellow looks like a San Shou or Letai fighter to me, with a Shui Chiao background. He had deacent structure, and was careful not to do anything unless he had an oppertunity. He didn't rush, but was calculating and well timmed. It looks like he bounced him off the Letai several times by waiting for his opponent to fall into emptiness. I noticed he kept dropping his hands though, not a good thing. It's a bad habit even in a "no head shots" tourny. He was still way better than the black guy though.

What did we learn form this? Always fight with what your good at, and leave the stuff your just learning for the trainig hall.

[Judge Pen]

I wonder how different the fight would be if head punching was allowed. The guy in yellow had no reason to block the head and that allowed him to throw lower, rounded shots to the body of the Bagua fighter.

The Bagua fighter didn't show much elusiveness. He only circled in one direction and didn't show a great change of direction to avoid the attack and then counter. I agree with RD that Bagua was a newer style for him.

[truewrestler]

(correction, not red) Royal Dragon, do you know where i can watch some video of a good Bagua fighter? I have never seen anything but demonstrations. Thanks

[Royal Dragon]

Red Dragon?? Do you mean "Royal" Dragon?

Anyway, I really don't know where to find good demos of Bagua fighting, only Demos of tactics against other demo partners. Either way, the guy in black totally violated Bagua's most basic core principals. He was worse at it than I am, and I suck at Bagua. He was better towards the end when he resorted to his base style.

You might want to look at Mike Paterson's sight. He's got some demo vids of how Bagua is used, but no tourny footage.

[Chang Style Novice]

I dunno from Bagua, but Blackdude McFingerwiggles didn't seem to have much going on. He got some okay palm strikes in pretty early, and had some okay (but not truly good) D against Goldie's body shots and takedown attempts, and his tomoe at the end was nice, but basically he was on the defensive the entire time, and spent a lot more time posing than fighting. If Goldie had been more serious about kicking his ass, I think his ass would have been more seriously kicked.

[Royal Dragon]

Chang Style Novice,

Reply]
Agreed

[Brad]

Red Dragon, do you know where i can watch some video of a good Bagua fighter? I have never seen anything but demonstrations. Thanks
I don't think there's anything free on the net, but if you got the $$$, http://www.blacktaoist.com/Intropage.html has some fight videos for sale.

[truewrestler]

NO GOOD BAGUA FIGHTING VIDEO ONLINE AT ALL?

That is very disappointing. I'd like to see what good Bagua looks like in a competition.

[truewrestler]

anyone? video? none?

[Kristoffer]

That must mean they suck ;)


Actually I'm also curious to see some

[chen zhen]

i would rather like to see xingyi-quan in a tourny. i guess there's no good xingyi fights on video out there..?:(

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by truewrestler
NO GOOD BAGUA FIGHTING VIDEO ONLINE AT ALL?

That is very disappointing. I'd like to see what good Bagua looks like in a competition.

I don't think that Bagua lends itself to competition fighting very well. I amy be wrong but that may be why there is not a lot of good BaGua fight vids available. Hsing-I looks promising, though. Any vids of a Hsing-I fighter in competition?

[Brad]

I don't think that Bagua lends itself to competition fighting very well.
I disagree. I think there's just not that many quality Bagua teachers here in the US in the first place. Blacktaoist has allready proven that Bagua can be used in a competition format, and so has Tim Cartmell I believe...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad

I disagree. I think there's just not that many quality Bagua teachers here in the US in the first place. Blacktaoist has allready proven that Bagua can be used in a competition format, and so has Tim Cartmell I believe...

I havent' seen anything from video on them, but I don't think they are posted on the internet. Do you have any examples we can see here?

As for the qulaity of bagua teachers in the us, weren't the vids posted here of foreign competetors with foreign teachers?

edit: I see where blacktaoist has vids for sale. Thanks.