Swordform

[GermanMantis]

Hallo,

i'm working hard on my 7 star swordforms and often wonder, why are they so clumsy? O.K. these are shaolinforms and not wudang, but often some moves remind me to be take from broadsword, 'cos they are chopping moves not round and elegant.
Does anyone know more? By the way, what is the origin of the forms?
Thx for your attention!

Here an example of the 5th meridian sword (http://www.rochesterkungfu.com/multimedia/5th-meridian-pub.html)

[mantis108]

Well, I am by no means a weapon specialist. Here's my take:

Sword is often consider the King of weapon. It is the hardest to master. The adage "Hunderd days saber, thousand days sword." shows you the difficulty of mastering the sword. If you are aiming for elegance, it is important IMHO to learn the virtue of softness and flexibility. This can be achieve through learning or incorporating Taiji and Yoga. Also it is important to cultivate or internalize the spirit within. That is to say reading, thinking and get a feeling of spiritual material such as I-Ching would help. There is a huge difference between learning a set (know the moves in the form) and training a set (workable knowledge of the form). A lot of people today learn but not train. Anyway, I think if we pay much more attention to the basics (yes there are basics in Jian) and 2 men drills of jian. It would dramatically improve the forms. I think Tainan Mantis could help on this one as well.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS To be a King, you would need more work and understanding than anyone/thing else. They don't call the sword king of weapon for nothing. ;)

[BeiTangLang]

Hmm,..I'd always heard that the Spear was "King of all Weapons",...but thats neither here nor there....

I have yet to see a sword form in WHF Mantis that is clumsy or choppy. They all move with power & grace (but not the elegance of the gim/jian). If I may ask, what form are you working on?

[GermanMantis]

Hello,

thanks for the quick answers! Yes i know the proverb ;-) And it's right it takes a long time to make the movement fluently and keeping the fightingprinciples in mind. I know other forms than that of seven star, therefor my question.
I'm curently training: Man mo baat tsin gim , a rather basic form. But it has nice moves and has it's difficulties to show it's hidden beauty :-)
Does anyone of you study sword?
Greetings
GermanMantis

[grifter721]

I was always under the impression that the double edged sword was an elegant weapon, taking years to master. all of teh double edge forms that I know consist of subtle yet strong 'wrist' movements.... The form that you have here, and teh way you describe your form it looks like it is being used more as a 'brute' weapon..,

[BeiTangLang]

You have my interest up quite a bit on this one, but as I am just getting done with my first Gim form & the feel for it, I cannot help you much. I can say however that the form I am working with is nothing if not elegant, even with the "power" movements (2-handed strikes) that are incorporated into it.
I am looking forward to the replies on this one.
Great topic!
~BTL

[bungda07]

Hello German mantis, I am also curious about this weapons set you are learning. The gim should be held lightly in the hands. Don't know if you are using single hand or double. The same type of flowing from exercises like the Chan Ssu Jing(Silk Reeling) should be used to make the blade an extension of your body. The last 12 inches of the blade should be looked at as if razor sharp on both sides. That would be used for chopping motions. (As you mentioned, earlier). This is done by Flicking of the wrist, so end of blade cuts opponent. It is quick, But not jerky. Sort of like fly fishing. Remember the blade was flexible to be able to penetrate between layers of armor. If there was an opening the Gim would find it. Lots of pocking and cutting. Flexibility of the waist and wrist are key. Hope this sheds some light on the it's use.

Steve M.

[tanglang]

I know this swordform also and it's said that someone who let's say- wasn't a real sword-specialist changed some movements of the form so that it lost much of it's sword-character - but I don't know if it's true.For me- I learned three really nice and elegant wu-dang-sword-forms - this form also looks a bit clumpsy because there are many movements that remind me much more on sabre-choppings..would be interesting to see, how it's performed in other lineages, if the set exists there..? Though German Mantis is right to say that wu-dang-sword looks different from shaolin-sword in generall...

[GermanMantis]

Yes as most of you already posted it is right to keep a slightly losse hand while holding the sword. If you have a tight grip you can't move it quickly it's equal to punshing. When you contract the muscles in order to punch right hard it becomes slow, but if you focus the force (and the contraction of the muscles) at the last point it becomes quick and explosive.
Swords cutting movements come mainly from the tip (therefore my question - Broadsword is mainly choping or slashing with the hole blade) so the energy comes from the whist. It is also essential to us the lower palm to press against the grip of the sword so it swung upward and trying to raise the tip by pulling the fingers upward (hope i make it clear).
Most moves are with straight arms (thrust and cuts) this give more freedom for closing the gap between you and the opponent. This is also a reason, why you don't use power in opposite to broadswords chopping and slicing movements.
One can compare the sword very much with the spear, because you have the same thrusting and cutting movements from the tip of the weapon.
O.k. Think that's enough for the moment :D

Nevertheless it still leave the question:
Origin of forms.
And are there any specialist on swords out there, who can tell me more on 7 star sword forms.

[tanglang]

Difficult to explain what differs, for me beeing used to wu-dang the difference is: in the man bo pa sim gim the sword is very often leaded with the whole extended arm, not many movements out of the hand-wrist for small and fast slicing/cutting-movements ..as I understand sword, it lives from the hand-wrist movements that give the sword it's efectiveness and elegance, the shaolin-sword as well as the wu-dang- sword, because it's chinese sword, not european sword! If I see the man bo pa sim gim it seems to me like a sword-form for a realy heavy sword, like the european ones that simply work by the force of their weight, but the chinese swords were light! and because of that have so various techniques! Shaolin swords were more heavy than taoist-wu-dang-swords because the material was different- it was a more old sword-making tradition and the wu-dang-swords were optimized/ "tuned" in a way, to allow faster slicing-movements - so this is an explanation for the differences of both sword-arts in generall, but the man bo pa sim gim looks really not very elegant, even compared to other shaolin-traditioned sword-forms..
So again- it would be interesting to see this form performed in other lineages/ schools, because maybe it just lost it's character because of the way it was taught then, maybe someone in the lieage only wasn't a well sword-performer and so now it differs..???:confused:

[GermanMantis]

Well,

i hoped to get an answer for one of our american brothers or anyone else to get this thead foreword. I'm not confinced that the 7* sword-forms are very clupsy and not so aestetic as one expected a sword should be.
Please keep on...