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phantom
11-06-2000, 10:21 PM
I cannot imagine what would be the best reponse for this situation. What would any of you do?

Three_Eyed_Kronos
11-06-2000, 10:38 PM
If someone is holding a knife across your neck, then don't make any quick movements and attempt to get out of it, in most situations the knife is there to scare u, they don't want to use it. Try and talk them out of it or give them what they're threatening for(wallet). I know many will disagree but I don't think u should do anything apart from follow orders

MASTERMAN
11-06-2000, 10:43 PM
Beg for mercy or give the guy what he wants. Seriously if the guy isn't actually touching you with the point or blade you have a chance. Also his body position to you (prox)Use a distraction and kick the closest body to you then run...

JerryLove
11-07-2000, 01:12 AM
Assuming you've already handed over your wallet?

It all depends on how he has the knife on you. If he is in front of you, back up. But I presume you are asking about the more oft though of "Guy behind you with knife to the front/side of your throat".

If his arm is coming over the same shoulder so his wrist is in front of your larnyx and his knife is on the side of your throat, you can push his elbow to slide his arm across your throat and with the other hand push back on the knife. This effectively puts you in a rear-naked choke and put the knife in his face.

If he hasn't croseed that far and the knife is at the fron of your throat, good news, no major arteries there. Grab the knife hand with both hands and bend forward.

There are more, some easier, some harder. What position are you trying to counter?

Karl Hungus
11-07-2000, 06:38 AM
Our Sifu tells us that a very important thing to remember is that if you do decide to make some sort of aggressive action or counter to a knife wielder in this situation that absolutely do nothing until they tell you to move. The reason behind this is that if the knife is to your throat their mind is likely set to respond to any sudden unexpected movement such as you grabbing or striking, the response possibly being to use the knife. By them telling you to move, this may be as indirect as get your hands up or as to the point as hand over your wallet you now have some room to maneuver. Once they have said this the wielder has stated that he expects some movement on your part and this would be the time to try something if you decide to. Personally though I would hand over the wallet if this is the scenario, the consequences of making a mistake far outweigh the benefits of saving your wallet and it's contents.
Aside from that, I'm new to the Forum and just wanted to introduce myself to everyone and offer a warm hello. If anyone is wondering I just began studying Yuchia(Northern Shaolin Style) approximately 4 months ago and it is my first time studying a martial art.

Karl Hungus
11-07-2000, 06:38 AM
Our Sifu tells us that a very important thing to remember is that if you do decide to make some sort of aggressive action or counter to a knife wielder in this situation that absolutely do nothing until they tell you to move. The reason behind this is that if the knife is to your throat their mind is likely set to respond to any sudden unexpected movement such as you grabbing or striking, the response possibly being to use the knife. By them telling you to move, this may be as indirect as get your hands up or as to the point as hand over your wallet you now have some room to maneuver. Once they have said this the wielder has stated that he expects some movement on your part and this would be the time to try something if you decide to. Personally though I would hand over the wallet if this is the scenario, the consequences of making a mistake far outweigh the benefits of saving your wallet and it's contents.
Aside from that, I'm new to the Forum and just wanted to introduce myself to everyone and offer a warm hello. If anyone is wondering I just began studying Yuchia(Northern Shaolin Style) approximately 4 months ago and it is my first time studying a martial art. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Black Jack
11-07-2000, 06:51 PM
If you have to fight the perp make sure you understand that with a knife situation you will get cut at some point so you might as well understand that some of your blood will be shed.

The question is how much blood?

Regards

ATENG
11-07-2000, 07:51 PM
[nt]

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

phantom
11-07-2000, 09:17 PM
Jerry, I was originally thinking of him poitning the knife at your neck while standing in front of you. I sure am glad that you thought that I was taliking about him standing behind me, as I would find that to be even more frightening. But, going back to the situation where he is standing in front of you, what if he has you trapped up against a wall, which would prevent you from backing up?

JerryLove
11-13-2000, 05:52 AM
While there could be specific situations/positions of signifigance, a person in front of you with a knife pointed at your neck is substansially similar to a person in front of you with a knife pointed anywhere else.

I recommend for any knifework you seek out a competent instructor, rather than take text to heart. That said.

Mostly, you want to move inside the knife and control the limb. With the knife pointed at a body part, you will have to reposition either the bodypart, the knife, or both, to close. Don't worry too much about the other limbs until you have the knife (except for where the other limbs can prevent you from getting control of the knife).

A common tactic is to move the knife, pass it, grab the wrist, sweep or puter-kapala, break the knife-arm. But of course, every situation is a little different. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Kymus
11-17-2000, 02:31 PM
Interesting topic, it's a position not too many really practice. Well, obviosly the first thing you do is give them your wallet and your nice watch and anything else the happy person says. If someone were that close to me, I would first try to disarm the knife by grabing the joint of the thumand twistsing it, then the knife should come out alot easier. Depending upon the distance of me from the knife I would try to twist their arm into some kind of join lock and take the knife. If I was thinking straight maybe I would try to get some pressure points to take out the arm. From there, hopfully I'd be able to either get him to run away, and if the knife is pretty it may be mine /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Crosstraining is the key"
~Sifu Rick Tucci~

JerryLove
11-17-2000, 08:58 PM
"the joint of the thumb"? Would you care to explain how you would get control of a joint 3 inches from a moving blade?

8stepsifu
11-17-2000, 10:29 PM
Pee

8Step Sifu

phantom
11-20-2000, 07:33 PM
Thanks guys, peace, live long, and prosper.

T
11-20-2000, 08:03 PM
KYMUS - YOU HAVE BEEN WATCHING TOO MANY MOVIES - 3 INCHES FROM THE THUMB? I DON'T THINK SO. THAT'S A GREAT WAY TO SLASH YOUR OWN WRIST. STOP PRACTICING WITH RUBBER KNIVE AND USE THE REAL THING - THIS WILL CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION ON TACTICS THAT WORK IN REAL LIFE

JWTAYLOR
11-20-2000, 10:34 PM
Check out my new topic under the Kung Fu section about the new article in Black Belt.

JWT

obiwan
11-21-2000, 02:32 AM
Well assuming that you've been reasonable and that you've tried to surrender, if you think he's really going to cut your throat anyway....

I would turn my neck, so that the front of my throat doesnt get cut, but not enough to expose the jugular. That way, it's harder to cut into your wind pipe, and if he does cut through, you can use your shoulder to support your head.

At the same time, grab the knife and hold onto it as hard as you can. It will cut deep into your hand and will affect reflexes and movement in your hand for the rest of your life. (Hope your not a surgeon.)

But as long as the blade doesnt slide, then it can't cut you. This is how all those "standing on swords work".

Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off.

Once you have control of the blade, take him out.

THIS obviously is to save your life, not hero movie stuff. Only when you feel you are dead anyway, cos your hand will be REALLY F'd up afterwards.

Hope you never need it.

The Force will be with you...always

JerryLove
11-21-2000, 03:10 AM
"I would turn my neck, so that the front of my throat doesnt get cut, but not enough to expose the jugular."

That is an awfully high precision to hope to have.

"That way, it's harder to cut into your wind pipe, and if he does cut through, you can use your shoulder to support your head."

You think you can loose enough muscle tissue that your neck doesn't work and your biggest worry is "holding up your head"? This would imply to me that you haven't researched this subject.

"At the same time, grab the knife and hold onto it as hard as you can."

Jumping to the conclusion that you han grab that dead-on and successfully (and without skewering yourself), which I think is a patently false conclusion.... You are now holding a tapering blade, he his holding a handle, and the two of you are playing tug-of-war. It's pathetically easy for him to free his knife.

" It will cut deep into your hand and will affect reflexes and movement in your hand for the rest of your life. (Hope your not a surgeon.)"

The perminancy of any damage is impossible to gague.

"But as long as the blade doesnt slide, then it can't cut you. This is how all those "standing on swords work".

Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?

Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice.

ATENG
11-21-2000, 03:48 AM
goodness...some of you might be in for a rude awakening.

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

rovere
11-22-2000, 09:04 PM
I have produced a video (Lesson 3 in the Chinses Commando series) on knife defense that covers several of these situations. you can check out the infor at www.rovere.com. (http://www.rovere.com.)

JerryLove
11-24-2000, 11:46 PM
1) I'd love to be pointed to independant sites that could verify the claims made on the site.

2) Proper knife defense for a soldier in BDU and gear is not the same as knife defense for a civillian.

3) This doesn't answer the topic posed. It just sells a video. You made a video? Fine. What is the knife defense from the video for the situation described?

rovere
11-26-2000, 04:15 AM
Sorry if I offended you. The video does deal with this question in a civilian context. And they aren't much different than the military versions.

The key to the defenses--whether the knife is to your throat-- opponent facing you or from behind with knife around your throat has to do with utilizing rotational force and bringing the elbows close to the body. Never try to pull the knife directly away from you (or kick or turn your head etc.) If the knife is in front the rotational force of your arms will redirect the blade back towards the attacker. If the knife is around the throat from behind, the rotational action will rotate the edge of the blade away from your throat . Position of your arms will cause the attacker to loose leverage. Without actually seeing what I am describing it's difficult to explain the counter but suffice it to say that some of them result in redirecting the blade into the attacker; dislocating his arm or disarm.

As for the comment about whether the material on my site is real or not. I've been through this before on another forum-- so I'm not going to bother to repeat it. I think there is enough references there you can get the picture. Let's just say because you haven't accomplished much in your life doesn't mean the rest of us wasted our time.

I suppose you could start by talking to Adam Hsu. He can verify who my teachers were. You can talk to David Cater at Inside Kung Fu magazine. I'll give you more if you're so inclined but I'd rather not waste too many people's time.

[This message was edited by rovere on 11-26-00 at 08:25 PM.]

JerryLove
11-26-2000, 04:43 AM
"Sorry if I offended you."

I'm not offended, just disgruntled. Many people love to chime in with either "My art does it" or "Buy my video" rather than answer the question at hand. This is exactly what your last post did.

"The video does deal with this question in a civilian context."

Great! The site you referenced did not seem to have material geared at average people, they seemed geared at millitary, law enforcement, and provate security.

"And they aren't much different than the military versions."

You feel a 60-year-old woman should work the same material as a 24-yer-old man? Don't you think a millitary counter-knife technique is morelikely to be geared at 1) clearing the field of fire for his buddy to shoot the assailent 2) gaining distance to use his firearm or 3) gaining position to pull his own blade? This is less likely in an attack on a civillian as he is less likely to be armed.

Further, an infantry man is probibly in good physical shape, and can rely more on strength-oriented technique than an unknown civillian.

"Let's just say because you haven't accomplished much in your life doesn't mean the rest of us wasted our time."

That's just presumptious (and rather testy, one might think I struck a proverbial nerve)

"I think there is enough references there you can get the picture."

It's not the list... It's validating the list.

"I suppose you could start by talking to Adam Hsu."

Sounds like a start. Though since I don't know who that is, I don't know how much credence to place on what he says. Where can I contact him at?

"You can talk to David Cater at Inside Kung Fu magazine"

Having been involved with the article submission process at IKF, I have little faith in their checking process (they have none). Or does this person have personal experience with you and your training?

I'll discuss your actual suggestion (the real topic) in the next post.

JerryLove
11-26-2000, 05:04 AM
"The key to the defenses--whether the knife is to your throat-- opponent facing you or from behind with knife around your throat has to do with utilizing rotational force and bringing the elbows close to the body."

Do you mean your opponent's elbows or your own? And to who's body (I presume your opponent's elbow you your body, but since this is different from my approach, I am not sure).

"Never try to pull the knife directly away from you (or kick or turn your head etc.)"

If the knife is already part way in, you will have to pull straight out or risk cutting your own artiery. If the person has his elbows to his sides so the knife is held just below his own throat pointing out, you will not be able to manipulate his elbows or rotate the knife, your options become overpower him away or change your angle to him. There are other instances where kicking or pushing the knife directly away become the most prefererable counters.

"If the knife is in front the rotational force of your arms will redirect the blade back towards the attacker."

I am a little confused by the position you are describing and the elbow manipulation you have in mind. Do you mean if the attacker is in front of you?

"If the knife is around the throat from behind, the rotational action will rotate the edge of the blade away from your throat."

OK, I *really* can't imagine this one. The position of your elbow is not going to rotate the knife so I have to assume you are moving his. Now assuming the knife is across the left side of your throat, anywhere from in front of your voicebox to across your carotid airtery. And assuming his elbow is beside your right shoulder (as if hes started a rear naked choke to get the knife there), how would you manuver his albow to leverage-rotate the knife?

You could pull the elbow toward your neck (my suggestion if the knife isn't directly in front). This would move the knife directly away from your thoat and using your other hand to push the knife backwards would put it in his face (while putting you in a rear naked choke).

You could pull the elbow down toward your chest. This might force him to bend his wrist, but would not reposition the blade.

The other two directions are up or away, but those would not work well (that I can see) and are not fitting with bringing elbows in to make rotational force.

"Position of your arms will cause the attacker to loose leverage. Without actually seeing what I am describing it's difficult to explain the counter but suffice it to say that some of them result in redirecting the blade into the attacker;"

The blade is already pointed at the attacker in most rear knife holds, it's just your neck is inbetween him and it. Do you mean pointing the tip at the attacker? Or are you thinking of some other hold?

"dislocating his arm or disarm."

We appear to be thinking of two different things. Care to post a picture of the starting position and maybe one intermediate position?

rovere
11-26-2000, 05:16 AM
The approach I was discussing has to do with mechanical efficiency not necessarily physical strength. i.e. roll elbows not pull. As for the 60 year old woman. If she can maximize her mechanical efficiency she has a better chance of successfully executing a technique than using a strength based technique.

I didn't think the question posed had anything to do with your partner shooting the assailant-- but I suppose that is a viable option.

You can find Adam Hsu on the Internet. I'm surprised that you haven't heard of him since this is a kung fu forum. He is quite well known and respected teacher in US, Taiwan and Mainland China. His teacher taught the Taiwanese 'dark suits' (Chiang Kai-Shek's bodyguards/secret service). David Cater has not trained with me. The articles they published should be on my site. Why did they not publish your article? I've had one refused for not being politically correct -- but usually they are quite receptive.

As for disgruntled, nothing I can do about it. Testy yes I guess so since your comments seem to arise from a personal problem with me. I'm curious with whom and what do you train? The last time someone tried this with me they ended up advertising their own web site and videos. Ulterior motive?

The 'list' also has references, photos and comments by various persons-- including military personnel. With some leg work I'm sure you can verify this. If you need help I have all of the letters on file. I can't publish everything on the site. I guess you now know why our consulting business is geared towards professionals and not the general public. At least they pay me if they waste my time.

rovere
11-26-2000, 05:26 AM
Give me your mailing address and I'll send you the video. My compliments.

The elbow rotation is your elbows being rotated towards your body-- approx. waist height. Your hands will be moving away from your throat when this occurs (Opponent has knife around your throat from behind). Of course you must grasp his arm--ideally as close to his wrist as possible -- but in real life 'beggars can't be choosers'. His blade rotates with your hand movement-- like when you drag the blade along your face when shaving. As long as the blade does not slide back and forth (parallel to edge of blade) it won't cut. Additionally, since his arm is over your shoulder (like in a rear choke position) he now has to support your body weight from a mechanically inefficient position.

If knife point is at your throat--opponent in front -- hold his hand, apply pressure (against the direction of the knife) to his hand to create resistance and again rotate your elbows back to your body. This causes the knife point to ratate away from your throat and towards him.

The idea is to use the mechanical efficiency of the body (weight; moment; rotational force; elbow position) to redirect and control/stabilize the blade.)

Where did the knife being part ways in come from? Again, if you can get the blade to rotate it reduces the likelihood of your being cut. Pulling straighta against the arm puts you in a tug-of-war position and the blade could snap back to you.

Is that clearer?

[This message was edited by rovere on 11-26-00 at 09:36 PM.]

obiwan
11-26-2000, 05:30 AM
Jerry Love

"I would turn my neck, so that the front of my throat doesnt get cut, but not enough to expose the jugular."
That is an awfully high precision to hope to have.

It's turning your head, anyone can do it. Like when you say "no"

"That way, it's harder to cut into your wind pipe, and if he does cut through, you can use your shoulder to support your head."

You think you can loose enough muscle tissue that your neck doesn't work and your biggest worry is "holding up your head"? This would imply to me that you haven't researched this subject.

Support your head on your shoulder, there by reducing the blood loss. Ie. Contracting a gash on your neck by pressing it against your shoulder. (Of course if it's too high, that's different, but they've not been specific.)

"At the same time, grab the knife and hold onto it as hard as you can."

Jumping to the conclusion that you han grab that dead-on and successfully (and without skewering yourself), which I think is a patently false conclusion.... You are now holding a tapering blade, he his holding a handle, and the two of you are playing tug-of-war. It's pathetically easy for him to free his knife.


You don't have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life. (You wouldn't be doing it otherwise.) You are not going for a precision cut, you want to catch the blade on the muscle tissue of your hand. The damage will cause blood to flow, but this creates a suction effect in the flesh, making it difficult to inflict further damage.

IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!
This is why large blades have blood canals. The suction from the flesh around creates a powerful force. EG. stab someone with a bayonet, then put foot on chest to help pull the bayonet out!
Muscles contract as an automatic reaction to damage. Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out.

If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone.

" It will cut deep into your hand and will affect reflexes and movement in your hand for the rest of your life. (Hope your not a surgeon.)"

The perminancy of any damage is impossible to gague.

If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question.

"But as long as the blade doesnt slide, then it can't cut you. This is how all those "standing on swords work".

Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?

If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: "it wont cut your hand OFF"
The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective.

You may say, "so what?!" but the sharpness of the blade inflicts significantly more than the force behind the blade, otherwise we'd all by using clubs!

I didn't sat it wouldnt cut your hand, i said it wouldnt cut it off! IE. you stop it sawing through your bone!

Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice.

Think again.

Read more carefully next time and do some real research. I understand about the neck muscle, I was a little vague, but the rest will work. Just because you break boards, doesnt mean you break the laws of physics.

The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces.

The Force will be with you...always

JerryLove
11-26-2000, 05:39 AM
I am all for mechanical efficiency, but I feel that one needs to discuss other options at time. For example, with a health adult male, I can show escapes that offer some, but little, mechanical leverage. These may be preferrable escapes to high-leverage ones for a slew of reasons including simplicity, length, or other factors. When teaching the millitary or securty, these attributes can be assumed. When teaching a wider assortment of civillians, one may be forced to rely more on the leverage techniques you suggest.

I may indeed look up Adam Hsu, thank you for the information. I am not very familiar with quite a few liniages. My martial exposure is defines by the people I meet, the people I study under, and the people I interact with online. I tend not to think much of people outside that unless they have published work that has interested me.

The article I was involved with was published in IKF.

I'm sorry you feel I have a personal problem with you, I don't. As I said, I am irked by people who respond to a question with an ad. Your site seemd self-egrandizing (hope I'm using that right /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and to not cover the question either (though you have since corrected that the knife video is geared toward civillians).

I will not be advertising for myself as I have nothing to advertise (and that would make me a rather large hippocrate). Since the cancer I am not even teaching anymore (though with luck, I will be again in about a year).

I'll take another look through the support on your site, rather than make you repeat info that may already be there.

JerryLove
11-26-2000, 05:52 AM
Yes, that makes more sense. Thank you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Your offer of a video is very generous, I think I'll take you up on it if you don't mind. If your email is in your profile I send you my address that way. I look forward to seeing it.

JerryLove
11-26-2000, 06:23 AM
JL - "That is an awfully high precision to hope to have."

Obi - "It's turning your head, anyone can do it. Like when you say "no""

I;m just concerned about turning it the right amount so neither the jugular/carotid or larnyx is exposed to the blade (which you cannot see). *That* seems to require more precision than I am comfortable banking my life on.

[snip]

Thanks for the clarificaton.

Obi - "You don't have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life."

That seems to me to require that you be dead on. If you ar not, you either miss entirely or skewer your handon the blade.

Obi - "IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!"

I believe you, but there is a tremendous amount of force that the knife wielder can apply. The foot-on-the-chest is to keep the chest down as much as anything. Also, I don't think a slice on the inside of a hand is similar to a knife imbedded in a hunk of muscle, but I admit I have never tried this on a living creature. Do you have any experience (personal or not) with this being done?

Obi - "Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out."

Never tried it. I did see that hospital show that TLC shows late at night a few days ago. They were in a British hospital. There was a kid (early twenties so not a kid I guess) that came in. He had lost about 20% of his blood volume to deep lacerations (expically one in his upper leg) where someone had plunged a knife in and pulled it out again repeatedly. So this is quite possible.

"If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone."

If I use a knife to cut the entire width of a muscle (like in the fingers or hand) and cut it all the way through (to the bone) and the muscle reacts by contracting.... That would cause the two halves of the muscle to move away from the knife, not squeeze in around it.

"If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question."

Degree of damage in the instance you describe is the severing of all muscles involved on the inside of the hand. But since these muscles can be sewen back together and nerve tissue can reform, permenancy is unknown.

Obi - "Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

JL - "So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?"

Obi - "If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: "it wont cut your hand OFF"

Yes, you also said "no effect". Is it *no* effect or *less* effect. The latter I agree with because the lateral motion of the blade (even a non-serrated one) has a sawing action that is more effective than simple pressure.

Obi - "The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective."

Perhaps I am mis-reading but that seems to say that I could push a bat through you (dull) as easily as a knife (sharp) because "The sharpness of the blade is negated" and I know this to not be true.

JL - "Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice."

Obi - "Think again."

OK. I think your basic premise that someone is likely to be able to retain a knife being wielded against them by an attacker by holding on to it's blade is false. Since all of the technique you describe hinges around that being true, I think your technique cannot be relied upon to a reasonable standard.

Obi - "The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces."

Agreed, Sharpness isn't a force at all, but a property. Kinda like why an arrow (sharp) does more damage than a bean bag (dull) when it hits you at high speed (and in a perpendicular manner I might add).

And if you think it's a force thing. A riot shot-gun firing bean-bags fires them with far more force than a 30lb bow fires an arrow. And the bags are heavier. The arrow will penetrate flesh, the bean bag will only bruise.

obiwan
11-26-2000, 08:35 AM
I;m just concerned about turning it the right amount so neither the jugular/carotid or larnyx is exposed to the blade (which you cannot see). *That* seems to require more precision than I am comfortable banking my life on.

Well the first post said CLOSE to the neck, not in it. And of course you wouldnt risk this unless the guy was going to kill you anyway. (That was in my first post.)
You do risk getting your neck cut open, but as in the first post, this is when you're dead anyway. THis is when you can see, he doesnt care if you surrender or not...

[snip]

Thanks for the clarificaton.

Obi - "You don't have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life."

That seems to me to require that you be dead on. If you ar not, you either miss entirely or skewer your handon the blade.

The hand is not coming over the blade, rather trying to get inbetween your throat and the blade. Thus if you stuff up, hopefully it will cut your hand really bad instead of your throat. If it skewers your hand, all the better, cos that will mean less overall damage and you will have trapped the weapon to a certain extent.

Obi - "IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!"

I believe you, but there is a tremendous amount of force that the knife wielder can apply. The foot-on-the-chest is to keep the chest down as much as anything. Also, I don't think a slice on the inside of a hand is similar to a knife imbedded in a hunk of muscle, but I admit I have never tried this on a living creature. Do you have any experience (personal or not) with this being done?

Try sticking a watermelon. It aint the same, but the juice and suction will give you an idea about what I'm talking about. Like you said, the whole body is likely to move before the blade will come out.

Obi - "Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out."

Never tried it. I did see that hospital show that TLC shows late at night a few days ago. They were in a British hospital. There was a kid (early twenties so not a kid I guess) that came in. He had lost about 20% of his blood volume to deep lacerations (expically one in his upper leg) where someone had plunged a knife in and pulled it out again repeatedly. So this is quite possible.

The lacerations would have been bad because the easiest way to get your knife out of a body is to cut up or down. (assuming a vertical stab) This acts as parallel force motion and would cut the flesh open, thus making the wound more horrible. (this is in basic soldier training. stab, foot, shove blade down or up at an angle, withdraw blade. The blade is not withdrawn the same way it came in)

"If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone."

If I use a knife to cut the entire width of a muscle (like in the fingers or hand) and cut it all the way through (to the bone) and the muscle reacts by contracting.... That would cause the two halves of the muscle to move away from the knife, not squeeze in around it.

"If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question."

Degree of damage in the instance you describe is the severing of all muscles involved on the inside of the hand. But since these muscles can be sewen back together and nerve tissue can reform, permenancy is unknown.


Tendon and nerve damage is a certainty. Nerves heal quite slowly if at all. (thus we cannot replicate or transplant nerves.) they can be microsutured together, but the results are not the same. (eg. guy in NZ with transplanted hand who says he wants it cut off because it is so bad)

Tendons can easily cause permenant damage from stress, let alone serious damage from a blade.

Obi - "Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

JL - "So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?"

Obi - "If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: "it wont cut your hand OFF"

Yes, you also said "no effect". Is it *no* effect or *less* effect. The latter I agree with because the lateral motion of the blade (even a non-serrated one) has a sawing action that is more effective than simple pressure.

OK, i was a assuming a non serrated blade, because the serations mean that you will have mutiple vectors to deal with which would saw right through your hand.

Obi - "The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective."

Perhaps I am mis-reading but that seems to say that I could push a bat through you (dull) as easily as a knife (sharp) because "The sharpness of the blade is negated" and I know this to not be true.

No, the point is that the sharpness overcomes the surface area of resistance. It applies the force and mass of the weapon on a smaller surface thus inflicting maximum damage to a small area, and thus cutting you open.

What i am saying is, with out the sharpness of the blade being able to cut, the damage from the blade PURELY would be negated. NOT the mass or force behind the weapon. I'm sure you agree that the sharpness is far deadlier than the mass.

JL - "Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice."

Obi - "Think again."

OK. I think your basic premise that someone is likely to be able to retain a knife being wielded against them by an attacker by holding on to it's blade is false. Since all of the technique you describe hinges around that being true, I think your technique cannot be relied upon to a reasonable standard.

It's not a standard, it's a last ditch effort to save your butt when you dead anyway. You wouldnt try something this dangerous otherwise.

If you KNEW a guy was about to cut your throat open, what would you do? You could hit him any where and a slight jerk reflex would have him cut your throat open. This is sacrificing your hand for your throat to get out alive. Not an everyday encounter match.

Obi - "The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces."

Agreed, Sharpness isn't a force at all, but a property. Kinda like why an arrow (sharp) does more damage than a bean bag (dull) when it hits you at high speed (and in a perpendicular manner I might add).

The arrow hits perpendicular, but look at the delta configuration of the arrow blade, most will cut in around 45 degrees. (measure the angle from the assume chest, to the edge of the arrow head)

And if you think it's a force thing. A riot shot-gun firing bean-bags fires them with far more force than a 30lb bow fires an arrow. And the bags are heavier. The arrow will penetrate flesh, the bean bag will only bruise.

Again, notice the sharper weapon has the best penatration. My point exactly. THat's what I'm saying, if you can isolate the sharpness of the blade effect, you only have to deal with the force behind it!

So the same way an arrow will penetrate and a bean bag gun will not.....

so to, once the knife blade can't move, then the force is dissipated in the same way as the gun!!

See! I think we can agree because of your arrow-bean bag gun example!

obi

The Force will be with you...always

JWTAYLOR
11-26-2000, 06:20 PM
Rovere, thanks for providing your professinal input. I'll have to check out some of your tapes. I have been very dissapointed with most of the empty hand knife defenses I have seen. I've taken allot of FMA seminars (litteraly dozens) as well as some other arts through classes, books and videos. I have been really dissapointed with all of them. They all seem to deal with dueling, not the reality of how knives are used by people who want to hurt you on the street.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

JerryLove
11-27-2000, 01:46 AM
[snip]
JL-"*That* seems to require more precision than I am comfortable banking my life on."

Obi-"Well the first post said CLOSE to the neck, not in it."
[snip]

True, and that would seem to make the slight change in your neck position less effective. I turn my head so the attacker is not quite pointing at my jugular any more and he slashes to the side and gets me anyway.

[snip]

Yes, I do agree that there are sacrifices, times you hope for the less damaging cut.

Obi-"The hand is not coming over the blade, rather trying to get inbetween your throat and the blade. Thus if you stuff up, hopefully it will cut your hand really bad instead of your throat."

The impression I have been getting is that you recommend grabbing the knife. I agree with using your (less critical) hand to protect your (more critical) neck

JL-"[snip]There was a kid (early twenties so not a kid I guess) that came in. He had lost about 20% of his blood volume to deep lacerations (expically one in his upper leg) where someone had plunged a knife in and pulled it out again repeatedly. So this is quite possible."

Obi-"The lacerations would have been bad because the easiest way to get your knife out of a body is to cut up or down."

Do you mean wiggle it back and forth? That's how most people unstick a knife.

Obi-"The blade is not withdrawn the same way it came in"

I'm not sure how a blade could come out any other location... Do you mean at the same angle?

Obi - "Tendon and nerve damage is a certainty. Nerves heal quite slowly if at all. (thus we cannot replicate or transplant nerves.) they can be microsutured together, but the results are not the same. (eg. guy in NZ with transplanted hand who says he wants it cut off because it is so bad)"

Tendons can be sutured, nerves regrow and reconnect on their own. When I had my jaw cut and reattached, I lost feeling in parts of my lower lip for from days to years (depending on where you are talking about) but it eventually came back.

Obi - "Tendons can easily cause permenant damage from stress, let alone serious damage from a blade."

I agree, damage *may* be permenant.

Obi - "Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

JL - "So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?"

Obi - "If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: "it wont cut your hand OFF"

JL - "Yes, you also said "no effect". Is it *no* effect or *less* effect. The latter I agree with because the lateral motion of the blade (even a non-serrated one) has a sawing action that is more effective than simple pressure."

Obi - "OK, i was a assuming a non serrated blade, because the serations mean that you will have mutiple vectors to deal with which would saw right through your hand."

That's fine, non-serrated. I can push the point of a knife through tissue with nothing but perpendicular force. This does not fit with either of your above assertions.

Obi - "No, the point is that the sharpness overcomes the surface area of resistance. It applies the force and mass of the weapon on a smaller surface thus inflicting maximum damage to a small area, and thus cutting you open.

What i am saying is, with out the sharpness of the blade being able to cut, the damage from the blade PURELY would be negated. NOT the mass or force behind the weapon. I'm sure you agree that the sharpness is far deadlier than the mass."

But all the sharpness does is put the force on a smaller surface area. So you cannot negate the sharpness and still say the smaller surface area counts.

JL - "OK. I think your basic premise that someone is likely to be able to retain a knife being wielded against them by an attacker by holding on to it's blade is false. Since all of the technique you describe hinges around that being true, I think your technique cannot be relied upon to a reasonable standard."

Obi - "It's not a standard, it's a last ditch effort to save your butt when you dead anyway. You wouldnt try something this dangerous otherwise."

Fair enough, I think there are better last ditch efforts. (ones with a higher chance of success)

Obi - "If you KNEW a guy was about to cut your throat open, what would you do? You could hit him any where and a slight jerk reflex would have him cut your throat open. This is sacrificing your hand for your throat to get out alive. Not an everyday encounter match."

I'd gladly sacrifice my hand for my throat, but I don't think grabbing the blade would be an effective way off doing that. My gut reaction would be slap, boneshield and reangle.

JL - "Agreed, Sharpness isn't a force at all, but a property. Kinda like why an arrow (sharp) does more damage than a bean bag (dull) when it hits you at high speed (and in a perpendicular manner I might add)."

Obi - "The arrow hits perpendicular, but look at the delta configuration of the arrow blade, most will cut in around 45 degrees. (measure the angle from the assume chest, to the edge of the arrow head)"

Yes, if a srtait-razor was attached to the front of the arrow instead of an arrowhead the larger amound of resistance would make it cut less (but it would still cut)

[snip]
Obi - "Again, notice the sharper weapon has the best penatration. My point exactly. THat's what I'm saying, if you can isolate the sharpness of the blade effect, you only have to deal with the force behind it!"

That doesn't seem to be where we disagree. My argument is that stopping the blade from sawing does not remove the "sharpness" from the blade (though it does lessen it). That a blad can cut from what you have been referring to as "perpendicular force".

JL - "So the same way an arrow will penetrate and a bean bag gun will not....."

Obi - "so to, once the knife blade can't move, then the force is dissipated in the same way as the gun!!"

Moving or not, force is dissipated ofer the surface area of the blade. When drawn across flesh, you get to take advantage of microserrations in any blade tearing at the skin.

obiwan
11-29-2000, 03:24 AM
Ok, I'm imaging that it's a guy with a knife near your throat and he's standing behind you, making angling difficult.

The blade is too close to try and shield with other extremeties like shoulders, jaw etc..... but not actually touching the neck, but rather hovering in front of the neck.

the assailant has his other arm around you to limit your motion, so you only have 1 arm free (the same side as the knife arm). That's the scenario I'm talking about.

Again i reiterate this is a last ditch move.

JL - Tendons can be sutured, nerves regrow and reconnect on their own. When I had my jaw cut and reattached, I lost feeling in parts of my lower lip for from days to years (depending on where you are talking about) but it eventually came back.

Yes but they do not come back to full capacity. Tendons and nerves are quite sensitive to damage, and after puberty they do not repair as well.
EG. someone who has this type of damage to his hands will never become a surgreon. The precision will not be possible. But normal functions are no worries.


JL- I'm not sure how a blade could come out any other location... Do you mean at the same angle?

Yes same angle is what i mean

JL- Do you mean wiggle it back and forth? That's how most people unstick a knife.

Yes


JL - The impression I have been getting is that you recommend grabbing the knife. I agree with using your (less critical) hand to protect your (more critical) neck

I'm saying, get the hand in the way first, before trying to grab it. If it fails, you're neck is still not slashed.


JL - But all the sharpness does is put the force on a smaller surface area. So you cannot negate the sharpness and still say the smaller surface area counts.

Ok, easiest example of this happenind everyday.
Tokyo shockboys, They cut a watermelon on someone's bare chest with a sugrical sharp katana.
Do you think guys sticking fire crackers up there arse have the precision to stop before the slice open that stomach? Study the video shots, (sorry, I dont have pics but i did study them) The watermelon is cut cleaning all the way through. That's part of their boast. The blade passed all the way through the watermelon. No fraying towards the end.

This would mean that the blade would have had to cut through to the watermelon skin on the otherside but not cut the skin touching the skin of the watermelon. This would allow for a margin of error less than 1mm, which a surgeon would have trouble with let alone someone chopping down on stage.

The trick is to not allow the blade any movement other than vertical. If there is ANY horizontal movement, then the guys stomach gets cut open by the slightest touch. (Eg. there are examples of this trick failing and the gut does get cut open)

This trick shows the way a blade works.

BUT, when skin/muscle moves, it does not stay on the same plane. (Eg stomach muscles tighten, (assuming lying down) horizontal. Hand contracting around a blade, changes many angles and gets cut UNTIL you reach the bone and your hand has reached it's full grip where the muscles no longer move any further allowing control of force.) By this I mean, the dynamics of muscles have finished moving so you don't have millions of variables. I cant really explain this without a diagram or real life, but suffice to say, as long as your hand and muscles keep moving, the blade can still keep cutting. (Thus grip as tight as possible to prevent this.)

JL - Fair enough, I think there are better last ditch efforts. (ones with a higher chance of success)

Well most counter techniques I've seen fail if the attacker just slashes again and again and again, or if the attacker is not incapacitated by the first hit. This way, if you stuff up,
1st, your hand gets hit instead of your throat
2nd you touch the blade, and it is much quicker to follow the blade while touching it as opposed to reacting to it. (Yes your hand gets more injured but if you let the knife get away while he has grabbed you, breaking out of holds or hitting him not counter him knifing you again.)
3rd at this range, incapacitating joints along the knife arm if failing, will result in your throat getting cut.

If there are better moves in this situation, I am sure they start with getting the hand in the way of the knife first. This one tries to incapacitate the knife with one arm (from the above assumptions) while allowing a better chance should it fail. GRabbing of wrists etc.... could turn into a strength battle which you could lose, whilst this technique tries to make physical obsticales to impede them. (damaged contracting muscles to grab, suction created by gushing blood) mostly physics rather then strength.

JL- Yes, if a srtait-razor was attached to the front of the arrow instead of an arrowhead the larger amound of resistance would make it cut less (but it would still cut)

That doesnt change anything. Only the angle is less obvious. Look very very closely at the point of the razor. If it forms a point, it forms an angle, thus over coming force from a perpendicular direction. < Razor point


/
/
/
/
Arrow head. both still use angles.
If a razor was enlarged, the
point would look similar.


sorry for the crap diagram, but I'm working with what i have.


JL -Moving or not, force is dissipated ofer the surface area of the blade. When drawn across flesh, you get to take advantage of microserrations in any blade tearing at the skin.

I agree with that the microserrations occur when drawing a blade across skin. (this is what my technique was trying to prevent int he first place)

However, as long as the motion is perfectly perndicular, it will not cut. This is how the Chinese circus performers hit each other with swords on bare skin with no apparent sign of damage.

This is how they stand on swords with their bare feet.

By gripping the blade with your hand as tightly as possible, your hand is cut until the point where your muscles/tissue has stopped moving in various directions and hoepfully pinning the blade to the bone. Then using the contraction of the muscles, suction created by your blood, grip strength to prevent jiggling of the blade. (In other words, any other motion except perpendicular) you prevent the blade from cutting out of your hand, thus capturing it at the sacrifice of your hand.

I know this may not be a good reference, but it is easily available but this happens in the movie Rob Roy at the end where Liam Neeson grabs the other guys sword.

Why cant the guy with the razor sharp sword just whip his sword out and kill him? The whole movie is based on realism. Just look at the good sword techniques used throughout the whole film. I'm sure the sword masters would not choreograph such a realistic sword fight to only chuck in hero garbage at the end. The sword techniques used in that movie are real.

That is how you fence with a sabre and how you use a broadsword. (My friend studied European sword fighting and we discussed it)

I can't think of any easily accessible references other than medical journals. Most of my arguements are based on physical facts and events that many people have witnessed. Not just hyperbole and speculation.

I did not give any technique that relies on any real advantage over the opponent, rather assuming the opponent is stronger, skilled enough to know how to take a blade out quickly and you only have one arm free.

Of course as we both know, if someone really knows how to use a knife, you are as good as dead.

Feel free to discuss this privately
I think my email is registered.

Most of this info is gather after talking to physics teachers, physiotherapists and of course martial artists. I do not have personal experience in using it, but under dire circumstances, I am sure it would be effective from the numerous examples I have given you.

I have also chopped my finger on a cutting board by accident with no ill effect. It was not intentional, but I did not understand why my finger didnt get cut even slightly. The blade was sharp I assure you. I was dumb enough to try again, (though with not the same force as initially) and of course, my skin was cut open. Then i did some research and found out why.

I of course do not recommend replicating the experiment.

cheers

Ivan

The Force will be with you...always

JerryLove
11-29-2000, 05:45 AM
"Ok, I'm imaging" [snip]

OK, that's probibly one reason we have differing advice. Somewhere before your and my conversation started the question got moves specifically to someone in front of you. From the situation you discribe, by first thought is to push the knife away by grabbing the hand/wrist and escape the hold, but much depends on the hold. Still your suggestion seems closer to mine under those curcumstances.

[snip]
Tell you what, let's giveup the "how well nerves grow back" as off-topic.

"I'm saying, get the hand in the way first, before trying to grab it. If it fails, you're neck is still not slashed."

I agree with that.

"Ok, easiest example of this happenind everyday.
Tokyo shockboys, They cut a watermelon on someone's bare chest with a sugrical sharp katana.
Do you think guys sticking fire crackers up there arse have the precision to stop before the slice open that stomach?"

So how is the watermelon cut under your theory?

"This would mean that the blade would have had to cut through to the watermelon skin on the otherside but not cut the skin touching the skin of the watermelon. This would allow for a margin of error less than 1mm, which a surgeon would have trouble with let alone someone chopping down on stage."

Unless the sword were decending with enough force to continue to push open the existing gash in the mellon but not enough to open a new gash in another serface (like a stomach). Remember, I agreed that without lateral force, the "sharpness" is not the same, I just disagreed with you saying it couldn't cut anymore because of that.

"Well most counter techniques I've seen fail if the attacker just slashes again and again and again, or if the attacker is not incapacitated by the first hit."

Gaining control of the weapon or getting out of range is the #1 priority for this reason.

"2nd you touch the blade, and it is much quicker to follow the blade while touching it as opposed to reacting to it. (Yes your hand gets more injured but if you let the knife get away while he has grabbed you, breaking out of holds or hitting him not counter him knifing you again.)"

Ever play sticky hands? Try it where your partner has a marker and his goal is to touch as many places as possible with it (including hands and arms). Do it at speed. See if sensitivity works (suggest he try pulling the marker back and flicking it out rapidly)

"If there are better moves in this situation, I am sure they start with getting the hand in the way of the knife first."

Maybe, what hold did you have in mind (wing lock?). The hold is important, it determines what directions and movements you have available. If it is a winglock, I'm not sure how you let someone get you into it with one hand. My solutions had presumed 2 free arms.

"GRabbing of wrists etc.... could turn into a strength battle which you could lose, whilst this technique tries to make physical obsticales to impede them. (damaged contracting muscles to grab, suction created by gushing blood) mostly physics rather then strength."

I just don't think there is that much tissue in your hand to worry about suction. And breaking out of a writ grab indicates strength or legerage enough to force open your hand (when the muscles are intact). The only advantage I see of going fo r the blade is if he slashes your neck and you are not strong enough to stop the movement, your hand is between the blade and your neck (something I already said I thought was useful).

"That doesnt change anything. Only the angle is less obvious. Look very very closely at the point of the razor. If it forms a point, it forms an angle, thus over coming force from a perpendicular direction. < Razor point"

A straight razor doesn't have a point, hence the name. It is rectangular in shape.

"However, as long as the motion is perfectly perndicular, it will not cut."

You mean like an ax swing?

"This is how the Chinese circus performers hit each other with swords on bare skin with no apparent sign of damage.

This is how they stand on swords with their bare feet."

I don't know about the former but the latter has to do with distribution of weight. A nail will go into you with perpendicular force but you can lay on a bed of them.

"I know this may not be a good reference, but it is easily available but this happens in the movie Rob Roy at the end where Liam Neeson grabs the other guys sword."

A sword is not a knife

"Why cant the guy with the razor sharp sword just whip his sword out and kill him?"

Swords are not razor sharp, though a sabre is somewhat sharp (kinda like the inside of a computer case that hasn't been bezeled)

"The whole movie is based on realism. Just look at the good sword techniques used throughout the whole film."

He used a Claymore like the was fighting a horse, not a person. There is a reason for that untapered part just above the quillans.

"I'm sure the sword masters would not choreograph such a realistic sword fight to only chuck in hero garbage at the end. The sword techniques used in that movie are real."

Most of it's good. The low hold on the Claymore is a mistake even many of the experts make.

"That is how you fence with a sabre and how you use a broadsword. (My friend studied European sword fighting and we discussed it)"

I've fenced and spent a few years as a stick jock in the SCA. My favorite weapon was a greatsword. Espically since so few knew how it was used.

"I can't think of any easily accessible references other than medical journals. Most of my arguements are based on physical facts and events that many people have witnessed. Not just hyperbole and speculation."

As I said, the guy was in the hospital with half-a-dozen holes where a knife had been plunged in to the hilt in much bigger miscles than the hand and pulled back out and shoved in again. Hospital ER, not speculation.

"Of course as we both know, if someone really knows how to use a knife, you are as good as dead."

He wouldn't use a knife the way discribed either.

"Most of this info is gather after talking to physics teachers, physiotherapists and of course martial artists."

My HS physics teacher though that 2 cars hitting at 30MPH each was like one hitting a K-Rail at 60MPH. My college physics teacher was more enlightened. Of course, neather would have been of any use in this discussion.

"I have also chopped my finger on a cutting board by accident with no ill effect. It was not intentional, but I did not understand why my finger didnt get cut even slightly."

Some of the original head-chopping devices (the Guillotine was a later one) used a straight, rather than an angled blade. The "perpendicular force" did work, but not as well as the angled blade. I have put the flat blade of a knife against many a fruit and pushed it through with no sawing. Cleavers don't use lateral force, neither do axes.

Jerry

Knifefighter
12-01-2000, 12:02 AM
Some interesting answers here. I would say try them out with an opponent with a training knife and see what happens. Then try this one out and see what you think:
1- Reach up and grab his wrist (with both hands if possible).
2- Move one hand over his fingers to give you more control over his hand.
3- Bite the crap out of his thumb/hand.
I have found this to be a pretty workable defense.

JerryLove
12-01-2000, 06:27 AM
1 I am mildly opposed to and 2 I am indifferent about, but I strongly oppose 3. What happens when the knife wielder brings his other hand up and just shoves the kife (that you just put in front of your face so you could start your biting) into you? I don't think that your knifewielders are playing to win (either consiously or subconsiously) if this is working for you the way you describe. (of course if your leaving out the part where you get him in a position that he looses control of his arm/hand between the grab and the bite part, that may explain your strategy working, but you should really mention that for the sake of people trying to follow or critique your advice)

BTW, this just reinforces my belief that one should not get their knife training through a BBS, go find an instructor.

premier
12-04-2000, 11:59 PM
This propably sounds really stupid to you knife-fighting professionals, but why the hell you want to grab the BLADE? why don't you just grab the wrist or the hand?

JerryLove
12-05-2000, 01:29 AM
Duplicate

JerryLove
12-05-2000, 01:30 AM
Short answer, you don't. In general, grabbing the wrist/hand (while preferable to grabbing the blade) is only practical when you have control over more of the arm than that (otherwise, your opponent will still have control of the knife). Usually, you want to control or break the arm with the wrist, elbow, and shoulder.

Knifefighter
12-12-2000, 12:10 AM
Actually, if you know how, you can grab the blade and there are many tactical advantages to doing so. Having actual control of the blade makes it easier to peel the knife away and keep it in your control, prevents your opponent from switching the knife to the other hand, improves your ability to isolate the arm, and makes it very hard for him to cut you in a vital place.

However, you need to know exactly how to get and keep your grip without getting cut.

JerryLove
12-12-2000, 01:43 AM
Don't keep us waiting, do share the secret!

obiwan
12-12-2000, 07:32 AM
Look, unfortunately, due to my computer freezing, I just lost the mathematical proof for what I've been trying to tell you.

Ok, long and short, it really is too hard to describe the physics to you over email, as well as showing you exactly what I mean!

Just a few pointers:

Rectangular blade.
It has a < shape from a side profile aspect.
IE. the sharp blade edge.

If it did not have this, then it wont cut. Yes if you fired at perpendicular to the body, then it would not cut UNLESS the force was so great that even a blunt object of comparable size and weight would go through.

ie. A lot of force is needed to punch through at a perpendicular angle, but if you slash or hit at a non-perpendicular angle, it will cut in MUCH EASIER.

I assume you have studied physics, but I dont know why you dont understand this basic physics principle? Sorry, I really dont.

Let's end my point with this:
THis is a desperate situation, it is nearly impossible to control the arm/body of the opponent effectively that would stop him from killing you since one arm is incapacitated.

Therefore, controlling the blade really is your only option. We both agreed that this techniques advantage is that if you fail, your hand will get cut instead of your throat. Grabbing the wrist/arm does not give you this option. Should you fail, you die.

I will stop arguing about the physics of it, cos I'm PO'd i went hunting for the mathematical proof and I have just lost it, and I'm not about to go looking another week for it. Sorry. just ask a physics professor.

DOes force have much effect on another force which is in the perpendicular direction? The answer will be no.

In summary, this technique gives you at least 1 failsafe, where as all other techniques described so far, in the same scenario have not.

Wrist/arm whatever locks, are just too risky when you other arm is pinned in the grab, and even if it wasnt, the space of a few mm's is not much for a strength contest.

My technqiue realies on physics and strength. to help, and at least have a back up.

We both agree, if it was a pro, and he wanted you dead, in this position, there is nothing you can do.

But, think, even if EVERYTHING I SAID is completely wrong (it's not), if the knife is cutting your hand, it aint cutting your throat which gives you a chance!

let's move on.
:cool:

BTW: a sabre is a type of sword, and nearly all swords I train with are pretty darn sharp. Only most western swords are not.

In Rob Roy, the opponent was using a sabre anyway, which was razor sharp. A knife is only a very small sword. There isn't that much difference to them in the physics of how they work. In the technique yes, physics, no.

Rob Roy was also not meant to be a trained swordsman, thus they made him fight incorrectly, whereas if you look at Cunningham, he uses the sabre flawlessly.

ok, nuff said

The Force will be with you...always

JerryLove
12-12-2000, 07:55 AM
Computer freezing... Hate it when that happens. Usually it's a power probem / heating problem / or bad driver.

"side profile"? Do you mean cross-section? (< or <>) from the side a blade is either <====I-O or -----I-O depending on weather you are looking edge-on or not.

Your "perpendicular force" works by the pressure over the surface area (and then the "tear" ability of the area and shape). So a blunt object of comparible surface area to a sharp object would *be* a sharp object by definition.

"A lot of force is needed to punch through at a perpendicular angle".

<growl> I have personal, observational, experience that this is untrue. Did you ever see Aliens when Bishop held a knife by the blade and flipped it forward into his hand? I spent a while perfecting that with a dull bayonette (about 1lb). I missed once and it fell about a foot into the flesh just above my knee. This dull point hitting with perpendicular force put a hole in my leg over an inch deep.

Axes, cleavers, push-knives, arrows, icepicks, etc. Put a banana on a table. Take a normal kitchen knife and put it on the banana. Push on the top of the knife and watch it go through. Doesn't work with flesh? Try it with a hotdog, or piece of liver. Raw steak is a bit harder, but the knife wielder in question will be giving you that lateral force you desire for a cut to function.

Get a partner and hold his hand/wrist/forearm. See if you can hold it while he tries to escape. It won't work (if he has any anti-grappling skills). You cannot hold his wrist but you feel you can hold his knife? (BTW fluid suction is more likely a function of fluid dynamics than physics)

My worry is him pulling the knife from your hand and *then* cutting your neck. I am not oppoesed to using your hand as a shield for you neck. I do not believe you can retain control of the knife that way.

A sabre is not razor sharp. It is not utility knife sharp. It is sabre sharp. That being sharper than a ******* sword but not as sharp as a dagger.

I'll stop now if you do. No fair putting in a last word *then* saying "but let's drop it".

12-12-2000, 04:11 PM
Are either of you Fencers or pick a sharp implement of any kind in your entire lives? Knives, Forks maybe?

Jesus Christ, Obiwan, what the hell does Rob Roy have to do with real bladework?...if anything it is the type of fencing you don't want to do...no blade control what-so-ever. I seen better blade control with my son wielding a butter knife.

I've got a little experience in fencing...six years... I don't know everything but I don't know nothing either...and I've got to say that you pair of Morons broke every single rule of fencing in your little conversation over "reality" applications of blade work. Big deal if you stabbed yourself...people commit suicide everyday to little fanfare but does that mean you brag about it in your posts? I don't think so...I'm sick of this....I'm sick of people who don't know squat about what they're talking about taking the floor and trying to be the Jerry Springer know-it-all about let it be Kung Fu...Ju-Jitsu or Fencing for that matter...it's all complete bollocks!

Obiwan... sure, we can execute your little plan but the quality of life left over from that would be so bad, you wished you be dead...It's not a plausible way of defeating the situation. Physics and the rest...if you can show me a labortory tested fight...then show me...because both of you are talking out of your arses...perpendicular blade may not move but in most cases people who are experienced with blades just move their blades in such a manner that you don't intend it getting it stuck into someone horizontally. Get it stuck from the blade tip maybe but that's easy to get out...not the entire blade.

I think it's time you two just returned Return of the Jedi, The Empire Strikes Back and Episode I because clearly you guys have the blade work from those great sources of inspiration.

JerryLove
12-12-2000, 09:12 PM
And if you cannot trust MrLardball,who can you trust?

Knifefighter
12-13-2000, 01:05 AM
Obiwan & Jerry:
You guys are actually getting close. Keep working on it. Once you get the answer, you will be amazed at how easy it is to make it work.

Knifefighter
12-13-2000, 04:47 AM
Mr. Lardball:
I agree with you that theatrical blade work is not much like real blade fighting. By the same token, fencing is not knife fighting. Nor is it realistic sword combat.

TaoBoxer
12-13-2000, 05:37 AM
My first answer is don't let the knife get that close, but if it does........

If someone is going to cut your throat the best thing to do it to EXPOSE your throat by lifting your chin. This is the classic horror movie/commando pose when the hair has been pulled back to expose the throat. What happens is the Carotid Artery and the Jugular Vein actually RECEED deeper into the structure of your neck and it makes them less likely to be severed.

strange but true......


Bill, the Kung Fu Medic

JerryLove
12-13-2000, 05:59 AM
How much deeper do they move? How deep is the average throat cut?

Knifefighter
12-13-2000, 09:54 AM
The best thing to do is expose your neck? I THINK NOT. The arteries may be pulled backwards somewhat, but not enough to make much of a difference when a blade is slicing into the neck. Not to mention the fact that you have now increased the exposure of your esophagus to being punctured. What you want to do is drop your chin down and to the side of the knife. This makes it much more likely that you will be cut in your chin/jaw rather than into the vital arteries of the neck.

You can prove this to yourself. Let a judo or jiu jitsu practitioner apply a cross collar choke on you. Raise your head up before he secures the choke. The carotid arteries are still close enough to the surface to be pinched off and cause you to lose consciousness if he does not stop. Next drop your chin down before he secures the choke. The chances are that he will not be able to choke you because all of his force will be applied to your chin rather than your neck.

Here’s a drill on surviving knife attacks to the neck. Get a partner with a rubber knife. Have him go for neck cuts and practice dropping your chin into the cut. Eventually you will get so good that he will never get to your throat.

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 12-14-00 at 02:06 AM.]

12-13-2000, 01:32 PM
I don't claim to know the solutions to the problem. I don't even have one...but watching Obiwan harping on about nonsense is ticking me OFF. I'm a fencer for God's sake, I deal with blades at a distance not up close and personal...that's why I picked up a CMA to try and add knowledge to my existing skills...I come to the table with my glass half empty but Obiwan seems to have a overwhelming glass of knowledge in a subject which he clearly, has little knowledge about.

Okay, so fencing isn't the be all or end all of fencing of blade fighting...I never claimed that but what these guys are doing is sacralige to a fencer. They claim that up and personal knife fighting is the same as fighting with a longer blade...complete tripe...it's like saying Grappling is the same fighting style as the normal standing combat that we do...sure they cross over but these guys don't acknowledge even that...they're the same...I'm just getting sick of know-it-alls.

TaoBoxer
12-13-2000, 01:38 PM
I have personally witnessed dozens of cases of soft tissue trauma to the neck. The best option is to NOT let it happen, but if it DOES happen, this may help you survive the event.

PS......Who cares if you esophogus is severed?? They have to get through your Trachea to get to it first.....which is a bit more important.

Bill

JerryLove
12-13-2000, 09:07 PM
You still here Lardball? I mean, it's obvious you created that ID to come on this thread and *****. But you haven't offered any suggestions, just insulted others.

That fencing (I have several years myself) is unrelated to grappling for control of a knife is an understatement. There is a little in common when squared off with a knife, but from the positions being discussed fencing is useless.

"I'm sick of people who don't know squat about what they're talking about taking the floor and trying to be the Jerry Springer know-it-all"

I have trained over half-a-decade in a primarily knife-art. I have trained under people who had to use those skills in combat. I also have experience as a fencer (epee mostly) and in HACA-style combat. What are your qualifications again?

Actually never mind qualifications... Prove your opinion is worth something by saying something useful.

Knifefighter
12-13-2000, 10:06 PM
Mr. Lardball:
While Obiwan’s observation on how to fight by watching movies won’t get him very far in learning how to use a blade for real, he is actually on the right track in his thinking about not being cut (although, not quite there). If he and Jerry keep debating, they may get to the answer, as they have each hit on parts of it in their posts above. Sometimes the solution lies outside the box.

Jerry:
Knife fighting definitely is not fencing, but there are some crossover principles between the two. I have a few years of fencing myself and use some of the techniques when I spar against other knife practitioners. You are right about fencing not being any use from the position being described.

Tao Boxer:
My bad- I meant the trachea, not the esophagus. Same ending though. If anyone is ever to take a slice at my neck, however, you can bet I will be dropping my chin rather than raising it.

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 12-14-00 at 02:18 PM.]

12-14-2000, 06:07 AM
Don't flatter yourself, me signing up just for you? Oh, how cute...you want to hold hands?
Sorry, but I'm straight thanks.

Half a decade...wow...half a decade....Why can't you just say five years? Oh, it doesn't sound that impressive anymore...crap...Who is the pretentious son of a lepered ***** now?

Let me reiterate, for those a little too dim-witted to realise, means go over again... I don't have a solution, never have never will. But I just want to clarify the fact that what you guys are doing doesn't make much sense to me...you taking things out of context from two very different areas of combat and using them in the same place. Something which I think doesn't make much sense.

Okay, I'll level with you, I'll say something useful. A blade to the neck is not going to be forced perpendicular easily...first lesson in sabre. There is two parts of a blade theres the sharp bits..sharpened sides and theres the other non sharp sides. Unless you can have a four sided blade (which I don't think exists) you can't be cut. Force it onto the flat and see if they can still cut you. Surely if you can force the blade perpendicular to the throat; you can flip the blade to the flat side.

There you go Jerry...an opinion.

*GO JERRY!*
*GO JERRY!*
*GO JERRY!*
Yes, I have a sense of humour.

JerryLove
12-14-2000, 09:38 AM
"Don't flatter yourself, me signing up just for you? Oh, how cute...you want to hold hands?
Sorry, but I'm straight thanks."

Since your account was created you have made three posts, all on this thread, all involving me. You seem to either want to date Obiwan or myself.

"Half a decade...wow...half a decade....Why can't you just say five years? Oh, it doesn't sound that impressive anymore...crap...Who is the pretentious son of a lepered ***** now?"

I could have said 43,800 hours. *That* would be pretentious. And I think 5 years sounds fine.

"I don't have a solution, never have never will. But I just want to clarify the fact that what you guys are doing doesn't make much sense to me..."

And yet it makes sense to each of us. Are you sure we are the ones too dimwitted to understand?

"you taking things out of context from two very different areas of combat and using them in the same place."

OK, I must be the dim one because I don't have any idea what to areas of ccombat you are referring to. We are discussing grappling for a control of a weapon. The only person I see bringing up another unrelated area of combat (fencing) is you.

"Okay, I'll level with you, I'll say something useful. A blade to the neck is not going to be forced perpendicular easily..."

What perpendicular to what? The blade to the neck? I'd assume that's the way the attacker placed it.

"first lesson in sabre. There is two parts of a blade theres the sharp bits..sharpened sides and theres the other non sharp sides."

When was the last time you got whacked by the flat (the non-sharp bit) of the blade? You can't wrap your hand around only that part. I understand what you are saying but I miss the part where it relates to grappling for control of a knife.

"Unless you can have a four sided blade (which I don't think exists)"

It does, but since I doubt that was considered the blade pulled on you, I'll pretend it doesn't.

"you can't be cut. Force it onto the flat and see if they can still cut you."

By "it" do you mean your neck? You'll find there is more than enough torque in the attacker's hold of the knife to rotate that blade to point at your neck. It can also be pulled out and stabbed back in.

"Surely if you can force the blade perpendicular to the throat; you can flip the blade to the flat side."

I have yet to see a knifefighter succeed at either. And any manipulation of what knife edge is pointing at you (such as Mr.Rovere's suggestion) is centered around manipulation of the arm and hand, not the knife itself.

Of course none of this is related to the conversation between Obi and myself that you decided to interject your drivil into. That was over the simple question of weather it was possible to keep a hand around the blade of a knife being wielded against you.

JerryLove
12-14-2000, 06:13 PM
OK, let me try that again.

Mr.Lardball, I apriciate your attempt to accomidate my insistance on offering material in your post. Having reread your second post, I see that you have specific issue with something Obi is saying (I can only presume it to be the same thing I am at issue with him on). My I suggest being more specific in your criticism so as to avoid some of this confusion.

What CMA are you taking, if I may ask. I find that they don't tend to be the best arts for a knife discussion, though I certainly have not seen them all.

I don't see what two desperate areas of combat you see bing mixed improperly, could you be more specific?

I think you'll find that someone wielding a knife is typically much more able to control weather the blade or flat is pressing against his adversary than said adversary. This is because a good grip on the handle is superior to a grip anywhere else on the knife.

I don't remember any techniques in fencing to arrange to get hit with the flat of the blade, but as I mentioned, I used epees (thrusting not slashing weapons). I have had people try this unarmed against a katana. They could not avoid the sharp bits.

JWTAYLOR
12-14-2000, 08:51 PM
I would say that raising your chin is a very bad idea, but for a different reason than you two are debating.
The tighter a surface is stretched, the easier it cuts. Anyone who has ever shaved realizes this.
I do allot of hunting. Weather it's a deer, a pig, a havelina, goat, whatever, I pull it's head up before I cut it's throat. It makes the cutting allot easier.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Knifefighter
12-14-2000, 09:30 PM
I have been playing with knives for close to a quarter of a century. Yeah, I like the sound of that. It does make me sound old, though.

JWT:
Excellent point.

Jerry Love:
I too had trouble following just what the heck Lardball is talking about.

Jerry & Obi:
Come on guys. Keep working on it. Don't make me give yu the answer :eek:

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 12-15-00 at 01:45 PM.]

12-15-2000, 03:27 PM
Jerry, go to a dating agency, I'm sure they cater for guys like you. So does the mental asylum but that's another story.

Who are you self-righteous existentialist people? Let's see what you people have said over the course of the last page :" I've done knife-fighting for a god**** million years, I can **** fire and do a triple back flip while jerking myself off...".

Sure you interject snippets of theory, but I don't
think that they are of any more use than you confessing that you performed cunnilingus on your sister last night. Face it, you guys don't know Jack and use this facade of "I am the ultimate warrior, I can kick your arse" is just to cover yourself...total and utter nonsense.

JERRY, YOU FRICKIN' MORON, YOU WERE THE ONE WHO SAID HALF A DECADE. What's wrong with just talking straight?

Knifefighter, stop beating about the god**** bush and say something useful besides " Yeah, Jerry you're close, try harder"...that's almost as bad as Obiwan's METHODS ON HOW TO COMMIT NON CONSENSUAL SUICIDE....I'm getting sick of your pretentiousness also..quarter of a century...yeah, so you're an eighty year old with a butter knife...I can see you running down the halls of the nursing home screaming "I KILL YOOOOUUUU MAN! I KILLLLLL YOOOOUUUU!" GO TO THE NURSING HOME AND CHOKE ON THE VENTILATOR.

Tao boxer, get out that meat cleaver and try it on your neck...save us from hearing your rubbish...I'm sure theres a nice place for people like you in hell.

No wonder martial arts are so ****ed up with people like all of you about...I started here because I WANT to think that there were people doing CMA; but it doesn't seem so, it seems that too many wankers who think they know everything about everything take it up to boast their ***** size and ego. You people preach that you should cross train and from what I've seen people saying that they do EPEE and know everything about a method of fighting and another guy who think Rob Roy is the holy scripture of blade work. I'm first to admit I don't know anything about anything but what I try to contribute is brushed off as garbage then FINE...I rather cast pearls before SWINE. I'm sure if you look in the mirror, you'll see who all of you are...a cross between a pitbull and down syndromed version of Rupaul.

One final thing, this thread should be titled :What is the best way to deal with someone who has a ten foot ******** pointed real close to your neck?

My solution is to suck on it....I'm sure most of you already do.
My solution is to SUCK ON IT!

I'm off to harrass other people now. I will be back, so hopefully then some of you will grow some brains.

JerryLove
12-15-2000, 07:54 PM
Knife, I think you are on the money there. Kinda makes one wish for a killfile eh?

Knifefighter
12-16-2000, 05:59 AM
Tsk...Tsk...Tsk...Methinks Mr. Larball may have more than a few emotional problems.

Despite Mr. Lardball’s rudeness (and apt name I may add), I’m going to give the answer to part of the puzzle. The answer is that, yes, you can hold the blade without getting cut. This is something that is counter-intuitive to most people, even those who have much experience with cutting weapons. You actually don’t need to go into the physics of how a knife cuts to prove the point. All you need to see is that you can hold a sharp blade in a tight grip in your hand without getting cut. This is easily accomplished. Go find the sharpest knife you can find. Hold the knife by the handle in one hand. Then, wrap your other hand gently around the blade, keeping the tip extended outwards from your grip (you don’t want the tip pushing into your hand). Once you are comfortable with this, begin to tighten your grip down onto the blade. What you will find is that, even with a very tight hold on a sharp blade, you don’t get cut. About the only thing that will happen is that you will get an indentation in your hand.

Remember, however, that this is only part of the solution to the problem. The other dilemmas include how to grab the knife without getting cut and, most importantly, keeping the opponent from pulling the knife from your grip once you have it.


.

JerryLove
12-16-2000, 06:29 AM
I think it more likely there are some psycosomatic issues going on. If you want to test your theory, put a kitchen knife in your hand and then punch something with force (a heavy bag for example) and see if that cuts your hand. I am unwilling to lacerate my hand to prove this point, but if you firmly believe that such force will not injure you, you might be willing.

I've pushed a knife through too many other things to not believe it. And been cut too many times to try this experiment. You might want to try some light hits before building up to hitting the bag as hard as you normally would, I'd hate for you to severly wound yourself and I really have no idea what kind of wound is likely.

Knifefighter
12-16-2000, 07:55 AM
Jerry:
My point isn’t that you can punch something with the knife, but rather that you can grip the knife securely enough to peel it from your opponent’s grasp and/or keep the blade from cutting you. There obviously is some point where enough pressure will cause the edge to break through the skin, but normally you can’t apply that amount of pressure by just holding around the blade. Ultimately, it is hard for a knife blade, when held securely and unmoving in your hand, to break through the skin. Not to mention the fact that in our scenario of disarming the knife, you’re not going to be punching something, but, rather, gripping the blade.

That being said, and being somewhat of a crazy myself, I decided to take it to the next level and try your experiment. I was just hanging around with nothing to do tonight and figured it wouldn’t be my first (or last) trip to the emergency room with a knife wound. I used three knives- a moderately sharp kitchen carving knife; a pretty sharp Spyderco that I use as a utility knife; an extremely sharp Gerber that has never before been used to cut anything. Here is what I found out. The location of the cutting edge inside my grip determined how hard I could punch. If the cutting edge was resting against the calluses below my fingers I could get off some pretty hard punches with all the knives. If the cutting edge was facing into me and resting on my palm at the base of my thumb I could punch hard with all except the Gerber without breaking the skin, but even that just barely broke through and caused a small incision. The most precarious position was with the cutting edge resting against the bend of the inside of my fingers. Punches caused the blades to push into my fingers and I limited my punching power in this position, but I still could get in some solid punches with the kitchen knife and the Spyderco.

This exercise reinforced my belief in the validity of being able to hold a blade without taking much, if any, damage.

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 12-17-00 at 12:11 AM.]

JerryLove
12-16-2000, 09:19 AM
Kifefighter, you're a braver man than I.

This I guess leads into the next issue. Can you retain the knife by holding the blade when your opponent has his grip on the handle?

JWTAYLOR
12-17-2000, 05:49 AM
KF, you need to sharpen your knives.

I just cut my hand squeezing my pocket knife. I gripped it with he edge facing my palm, back of the knife on my fingers. It cut me at the meat above the meat of my thumb and just below my pinky. I didn't have to grip too hard.
Also, last week, I let a friend borrow my knife to cut cheese (that didn't sound right). The pocket knife I usually carry has a false back edge. He mistook it for the real edge, placing his thumb on the real edge and pressing down on it thinking it was the false edge to cut cheese. He did indeed cut the sh!t out of his thumb. I did, indeed, make fun on him.

Given, I apprenticed at a forge (Kelly forge in Wimberly, TX) for a couple of years, so my knives are friggin razon sharp, much sharper than most "out of the box" edges. But assume your opponent's blade will be as well.

Oh, and by the way, I have yet to figgure out a solution for the knife at your throat, guy at your back problem yet. Now, if he's in front of you, I think you've got allot more options, like stepping back and tucking your chin.

Lard@ss. You are one funny, fu(ked up dude. But funny none the less.

JW

8stepsifu
12-17-2000, 08:11 AM
First off I sure as hell wouldn't try to sit there and side block the **** thing. I would shift my body and turn my waist as I grabbed his wrist (we do this allot in mantis) and grab his throat using "Hawk Hands" and rip his throat out with primal/ berzerker fury and continue to punch him in the throat, elbow, eye gouge etc, until his nerves stop twitching.

Or As I am ripping his throat out, get some leverage for a joint lock, break a few joints, and continue beating him in the same places as before so in court I can say that I only hit him until I was safe ;)

For you 8 Stepers out there
1. Inside mantis grab and hawk hands
2. Lumberjack Carries the Wood and break it convert the movement into the Swaw throw. If he doesn't let go of the knife, wiggle the broken joints and he soon will

8Step Sifu

obiwan
12-17-2000, 08:54 AM
Knife fighter:

Dont know whether your a nut or whether just know knives that intimately......


Although you did prove my point, please do post a "Dont try this at home" somewhere lest some less experienced person tries that and......

Anyway, I used math to back me up. You used real life. Both of them say the same message. It is possible.....

:eek:

I applaud you none the less.

Jerry: I assume our discussion on the use of my technqiues being impossible are over.

However, you are right, if the guy really knew how to use a knife, he could get the knife out of your hands and back into you.

But as we said, if a guy really knew how to use a knife, you're dead anyway. And if you're dead anyway, you might as well give it a go.

Here's hoping to all of us, that we never end up in this situation.

Cheers

The Force will be with you...always

Knifefighter
12-17-2000, 09:31 AM
JWT:
That really surprises me. I have squeezed razor blades in my hands without getting cut. Are you sure the blade didn’t move and get drawn across your skin?

8 step:
Rip his throat out? You don’t mean that literally, do you? Please don’t tell me you really think you could rip someone’s throat out.
r

JerryLove
12-17-2000, 09:54 AM
I though our discussion was not on weather you would get cut, but weather you could maintain control of the knife by grabbing it's blade.

But I'm happy enough to drop it (see, I didn't even try to put in a last word on the subject :) )

ATENG
12-17-2000, 10:19 AM
sheesh kf, youre crazy heheh. now granted you can grip a knife and not have it cut, but the instant you grab a knife, wouldn't the wielder's instinct be to free it, thus drawing the blade across your palm or fingers? i can see that maybe if the blade remained static that its possible to grip it (though i'm too chicken to try that), but if you move, i would think that the knife wielder would move too. does this blade gripping apply to a moving blade?

abe

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

JWTAYLOR
12-17-2000, 05:33 PM
Well, to be honest, I was a little surprised myself.
I have repeated the exercise with another couple of blades, without getting cut. I think the difference is in the blade shape. My pocket knife goes from wide to narrow. So, I think in gripping the blade hard I actualy rocked it slightly in my hand. The other two knives I tried this with were longer, without much difference in the width of the blade in my hand, so no rocking.
Given, any rocking motion must have been pretty small, but the knife is pretty d@mn sharp.

JW

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

origenx
12-17-2000, 08:23 PM
Ateng - tru, knives only cut primarily when they're pushed or pulled - so yes you can probably grab one still without cutting yourself too much.
My old TKD/hapjido teacher taught us this. HOWEVER, if your attacker pulls the knife or your hand slips off somehow, it'll get cut open like a tomato... And frankly, I don't have the confidence that this couldn't easily happen if I did grab the blade. Just sounds pretty f*cking risky to me!

I'd like to hear an actual account of someone who actually tried this and if it worked or not..

Knifefighter
12-17-2000, 09:53 PM
Ateng:
No, it does not apply to a moving blade. Remember what I stated above? Grabbing the blade is only part of what you have to do. If you just grab the blade, it will get ripped out of your hand and will slice it wide open. The key is keeping the blade from being drawn out of your grip.

JerryLove
12-17-2000, 09:57 PM
Which is not too difficult a prospect of both hands are free (except that my counter under those circumstances doesn't require grabbing the knife and may stab your attacker). Under Obi's "one hand in a wing lock or something similar" I don't see how you plan a one-armed immobilization.

8stepsifu
12-17-2000, 11:22 PM
Ever hear of eagle claw kung fu? It's incorporated into 8Step. We do lots and lots of srengthaning excersices for finger strength and grip. Hawk hands is a combinations strike and throat rip. Combined with addrenaline, I don't see why not. Besides drowning people have clawed at car interiors and bent metal with their clawing. Thats adrenaline. I know I'm fast enough and if nothing else it would provide me with a distraction to work on a disarm. And don't tell me it's impossible to keep a wrist grab, because thats what our style does best. I could move, grab and strike the throat before you could blink...its waist movement. If someone had a knife to my throat I would kill them or perminantly injure them. No question. Thats a deadly weapon and I've heard that skin holds up like a rotten apple to a sharp knife so I wouldn't take any chances

If your not bleeding, your not having enough fun.

Knifefighter
12-17-2000, 11:52 PM
Jerry:
I have found that it is generally pretty impractical for the guy with knife to immobilize one of your arms. The most likely scenarios I have found in practicing this situation are the following: 1-Knife guy wraps non-knife arm around your neck and holds knife into your face. 2-Knife guy shoves you and holds you against a wall while bringing the knife into your neck. 3-Knife guy takes you down to your stomach, puts knee in your back and brings knife into your neck. 4- (worst case scenario- done by BJJ training partner) Knife guy wraps your neck with free hand, pulls you back and wraps hooks around your legs, ends up in back mount with knife in your face.

I have found for the guy to immobilize my arm, I pretty much have to give it to him to start with and, even then, it is hard for him to keep me from escaping. However, I have played around with giving him my arm and letting him get the knife all the way to my throat (I think you would have to be a spaz to let him get to this point in real life). In this case, I don’t go for the blade, but, rather, go for hand/wrist control with my free hand and then work to free the immobilized arm. Then I go for blade control.

8 step:
Umm…OK.

JerryLove
12-18-2000, 12:10 AM
I agree that escaping most, if not all, upright grapples is fairly simple. It does take enough time for your opponent to utilize the knife if that is not what you control first. And cutting your throat should be his first instinct when you struggle (unless he is not serious, in which case, he's an idiot to pull a knife).

12-24-2000, 10:26 AM
Since this thread is so long I probably missed a few things, so you'll have to forgive me.

First I think grabbing the blade is a bad choice. It "could" work, but most people including myself would NOT do that. Especially without first seeing if we could actually pull it off ourselves.

Not to mention other variables. What if you had just eaten something greasy, its raining, or they have an oily knife thus making your hands extra slippery? What if they're one of those nuts that obsessively sharpens their knives 'til they're sharper than a razor? I know from experience that a razor can cut through flesh simply by pressing on it. It doesn't have to slide.

Plus what if its not technically a knife, but instead a razor? Or a Ginsu knife? Or one of those freaky big ass knives with spikes sticking out. :D Or even one with a small blade that's barely 'grabable' and might even break off.

I realize I'm throwing out lots of questions, but I wanted to remind everyone of some of the variables that are possible. You can count on them holding it in their hand, whatever the weapon is, so I'd skip the blade idea and work from the hand in.

One suggestion is to start wearing a turtle neck laced with chainmail. :rolleyes:

If they're standing in front of you with their arm bent and to their side, as someone would start off naturally, you can block their bicep area and keep their arm from moving foward. I haven't tried this with a real knife, but it works wonders on psychos letting loose with rubber knives. It also works well vs. punches. I have found with blocking the bicep (thus stopping the whole arm) sometimes people don't realize how you're blocking their attack, so they keep on trying. I wouldn't expect that with an expert though.

Anyway my main reason for the post was to throw in some variables.

------------
I'll suffer your orcish wit no longer!

phantom
01-10-2001, 05:36 PM
Thanks for your insight on this topic, guys. I really apprecite it. Peace.

01-26-2001, 08:11 AM
8step,
you have the face of a bulldog licking p1ss off a nettle

01-27-2001, 07:33 AM
I'd pretend to have a seizure.

Scott
02-01-2001, 02:49 AM
I'd grab his arm, and do a complete back flip over him, then use the arm I had grabbed to throw him over my shoulder into a wall. Then I'd bicycle kick into him, and knock him through the wall.

-Scott

"You have to consider the possibility that god does not like you; he never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. It is not until we have lost everything that we can do anything."

DragonzRage
02-02-2001, 02:06 AM
If you are careless and stupid enough to let someone get close behind you and hold a knife to your throat then I highly doubt that you're good enough to pull off some kind of miracle technique to beat him in that disadvantaged position. The only technique I'd suggest is Movement #7: "Hungry dragon surrenders his money pouch"

SokeHargraves
02-06-2001, 08:18 PM
>>>What is the best way to deal with someone who has a knife pointed real close to your neck?

Bend over and pull your pants down.

-Neal

"As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need.
Sky of blue, and sea of green,
In our yellow submarine."
-the beatles

RFM
02-07-2001, 12:31 AM
8stepsifu has it, humiliate yourself and it takes the wind out of the assailants sails as far as intimidation is concerned, most likely the assailant will take pity on you after he/she takes your money - but atleast you'll live to earn more money (especially to replace those pants you've just ruined!).

Bob

From One Thing, Know Ten Thousand.

Mojo
02-07-2001, 12:32 AM
Neal
You must have learned that move in prison !

or should I call you kneel ?