RE: To Mutant's kick question

[Brad Souders]

(PLEASE FLAME AWAY)

While ring awareness is always important (or awareness of environment, whether its a crowded bar, alley, etc), it sounds like its paramount for a striker fighting a grappler. I also thought the 'striking nearest target of the shoot, changing target' example was excellent. You mentioned that leg kicks werent nessesarily good for stopping a grappler and that they might feed on them....What do you think a particularly effective kick is against a grappler looking for the shoot? Front stomp, round, side, other? All of the above and depends? mid section or going for the knockout head shot? ime, side and round kicks work best when cutting an angle after initial combo.


*I would like everyone to chime in on this as these are just my thoughts on the questions*

You hit a very good point. Its the angle of the kick in contrast to where the "grappler" is. If he is balanced and able to move forward he is gonna take u down after a kick. hte bodies center is off and your not able to move backwards/sprawl with the force needed for full blown success. I believe the success of kicks is in there set-up.

Many people just throw kicks out there. Almost begging to be taken advantage of. I'm not talkin abot just grapplers but alot of strikers take advantage of kicks.

The kicks should be set by hand combos. BUT here is the more important part. Kicks should be set up with footwork. Footwork that forces the grappler in a backward motion. Its harder for him to change direction and levels. He has more space to regain in order to set the shot up.

These are my personal favorite kicks and a little reason i use each.

Push Kick to chest area- Good for a stop hit. Most people don't expect a shot to the chest. Maybe not a fight ender but u can plant forward off it to set combos.

Oblete(sp) kick to the leg- obvious stop hit technique. But if u can catch a forward kick at the ankle damage may be done. Only really used for a fast blocking type weapon not offensive.

Side Kick to the mid section or legs- Same effect as Push Kick but more power. To the knee is great for the street but harder to use in MMA cuz of the lack of takin out the knee joint.

Roundhouse Kick anywhere- the most powerful offensive kick imo. When set up proper should be able to strike with max damage and still be able to avoid on coming traffic. One of my favorite combos is jab-cross and as my cross passes through use that hip energy to throw a head kick because they are still high from blocking.

Any kick is usable. It about how u set it up.

When i fought in san shou i actually was lookin at leg kicks to shoot off of. Even eventually i was setting my own shot off a push kick in the end. My goal wasn't to connect with the kick but toiuch and go.

Remember that also sometime a grappler uses a touch front kick to shoot off. Set your timing to hit lower right after the kick to intercept the shoot. *watch Shamrock vs Royce II*

Later, Brad

[Brad Souders]

I'd really like to hear what LMFKDCFREFG *David from NYKK* has to say on this issue. This is way more his area then mine i'm just an ego driven mma guy LMAO.


Later, Brad

[Merryprankster]

Brad,

Good points all. I shoot off kicks and kick to set up the shot.

Basically, I shoot as the guy is bringing his leg back. You just can't move on one leg--good time for me to close the gap.

I also touch n go for the shot. I might try a few kicks for effect, to get the other guy used to the idea that I'm going to whack him, but then I switch to a touch n go off a thai style roundkick. I allow my shin to connect lightly and kind of slide off his body to the ground. This ensures my knee is penetrating through his plane of balance, on the outside of his body. Since I have a pretty good sweep single, that's usually money for me because it all flows into place.

Mostly though, I shoot as a counter to a power shot. When you throw a punch with any power, the weight's gotta come to the forward leg, even if only slightly. That freezes that leg to the mat. Instant sweep single because sprawling now takes time! I will also shoot off a jab IF they are moving forward. I clinch as a response to somebody inside my punching range and that's pretty good for takedowns too...

[Oso]

so, I won't throw a kick to start an offensive combo unless it's lower-mid gate or low gate. no, frickin way am I going to try a high gate leg attack in a grappling venue. sure fire way to end up on your butt.

I'd much prefer to enter w/ hands and then kick/sweep after I have his hands occupied. that way you have at least a chance for sprawling w/ underhooks if he tries to shoot off the kick.

Due to my overall low speed, I label myself as a counter-fighter and work for better position and wait, maybe feinting or drawing and attack.

Critique This:

I use a right lead mainly, only sometime switching to a left lead. I will shoot low front kicks or rounds and attempt to draw the single leg with the intention of using the sprawl as my attack. Granted, a well shot single leg will get the take down but since I'm baiting my focus on the timing is (hopefully) more acute and I sprawl w/ an over hook outside and either hook the head inside or work for an underhook inside.

thought's???

[Mutant]

Brad, thanks for the detailed well thought out answer, and props to you other guys for adding to this.

Its interesting to see the analysis of the same techniques from a grappler's or MMA perspective.

So we've established that set-up is the key; setting up with both hands and footwork/angles/relation to the grappler (or striker or anyone who could capitalize on something just 'thrown out there').

Interesting that you guys all noted that the time a grappler is likely to shoot is during a transition, whether its yours or theirs (and optimally at the weak point of it) or when one is committed or off-balanced by their own offense or yours and is also suseptable/vulnerable at these same instances.

I consistently hear grapplers talking about 'fighting for position' and usually imagine it being done on the ground or in the clinch portion of the battle... but i see that its also while disengaged and looking for a shoot or entry, whether against a grappler, striker or mma.

San Shou fighters use many of these principles...guys like Jason Yee are very masterful at them and very dangerous because of these skills (i'm still a work in progress...), catching kicks, working angles and striking or throwing during transitions. Some of these principles can be seen in traditional arts. I guess its the fact that I've always approached things from a primarily stand-up fighters mind set that i really don't know what sort of model or stategy a grappler/ground-fighter is working from...apperently neither did many other fighters when the first ufc's came around, hehe. I guess thats the importance of cross-training, communication and information.

Oso, do you mean that you're working on single leg takedowns by shooting into a sprawl position while snaching the leg or counting on sprawling and under or over-hooking if it is countered and doesnt work out? We shoot for a single leg differently, but then again we're trying to avoid being the first on going to the ground.

Well, this was a good discussion to get me thinking about different strategies, something to take to the gym tonight and play around with.
Thanks guys! :D

[Oso]

MW, not exactly.

what I meant was that I will attempt to bait a shooter into my leg and hopefully (relative skill always counts) counter with an underhook/overhook/sprawl.


hmmm, so...my right leg is forward and he shoots.

most people I've seen shoot a single w/ head inside.

so, I attempt to step slightly to my right and sprawl as I attempt to get my left(inside) arm between his head and my body and my right hand is overhooking. If I can't get the crossface then possibly and underhook on the other arm.


my latest endeavor has made me realize that I've lost quite a bit of pure grappling skill, (as I now have older, smaller judo guys throwing me all over the place :)

[No_Know]

Did you actually lose it? ODid you think you had more than you really did.

I was reading, I No_Know some of the terms. But if I go over it the relation to English might shine through and I'll get what you meant.

Oso, if you kick to get them with their reation that's sensible-ish. Perhaps you should do it so that their best responses are limited. You have it to where you think there is one response and you have two ways to get them with That response.

Listen to if there are Other likely responses you weren't considering. As to the two responses, I first thought that this is a division of attention and confusing and distracting. When stuff is happening you might be trying to decide which to do. And when you decide the one you might pass-up the opportunity to do the other and vice versa. Hope this doesn't sound too silly.

Perhaps one should train to fight from one leg.

I prefer kicks that land at the bottom of the foot--least get hurt danger for me, pertaining to landing area.

[Oso]

No_know, no i am not kicking.

I am baiting with my lead leg to hopefully draw the single leg with the intention of beating him with my D against the single leg. Just some thoughts.

I was a decent wrestler in high school, nothing remarkable, but ok. I have trended away from straight grappling and am now working just grappling again and have lost some ability. Some of my frustration is from working with judo guys and never having experienced the gi grippy grapplers that they are and so some discombobulation is being experienced as my natural instinct to a garment grab is bust em one in de chops.

[No_Know]

I get it better now. Even though it is not a kick you might be confusing yourself with your plan and back-up plan.

[Mutant]

Okay Oso, now i understand what you are trying to do, youre baiting and setting a trap. I had it all backwards before...

Do your opponents try to land a lot of leg kicks on your leg if its left out there long enough to get their attention?

If so then one other thing you might want to try as a counter-fighter, if you don't already, is to trap the round leg kick against your leg on impact and step forward and in with your other leg with a push or punch as you move inside, for the sweep/takedown. We do this in san shou. You'd want to condition/temper your legs for this.

Hey Brad, to answer your question from the other thread; things are going good...training with the boston team is lots of fun and i'm always learning new things and getting better. May fight again in about a month. How's it going with you? Still competing and teaching/traing a lot?

Later man,
Chris

[Oso]

Do your opponents try to land a lot of leg kicks on your leg if its left out there long enough to get their attention?/QUOTE]

yes, the lead leg is a target for leg kicks but I usually don't have even as much as 50% of my weight on the front leg so I will attempt to stop kick or just lift the leg and turn the shin to the kick. doesn't mean it works all the time though, that's just the strategy.:)

[quote]

If so then one other thing you might want to try as a counter-fighter, if you don't already, is to trap the round leg kick against your leg on impact and step forward and in with your other leg with a push or punch as you move inside, for the sweep/takedown. We do this in san shou. You'd want to condition/temper your legs for this

with both some crane and mantis in my background, catching a kick and stepping in with a strike to center is definitely in the toolbox with and with out the sweep to the standing leg.