Bush shoulda known!

[Chang Style Novice]

There was plenty of warning about specific details of the 9-11 terror attacks. (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/6269252.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp)

[chen zhen]

Old news......?
I've heard it before.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe he did know. Afterall, there is a lot of speculation about America knowing Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. Without that bombing, we wouldn't have jumped on the Japanese. Perhaps this was Bush's Pearl Harbor.

[Merryprankster]

Rubbish. Not that there were gaps in the system mind you but absolute rubbish that he "should have known."

Unless you mean "He should have known but the system failed so he didn't know." That's a different issue than incompetence.

Enough with the conspiracy theory garbage too. Do you have any idea how many people on so many different levels would have to be involved to make something like this fly?

[MasterKiller]

Enough with the conspiracy theory garbage too. Do you have any idea how many people on so many different levels would have to be involved to make something like this fly? Yeah, it would take the FBI concealing and doctoring evidence, for one. Then, you would need the President and his cabinet to agree go along with sed concealment. And of course, you would have to count on the Democrates not having enough b@lls to stand up and make any noise about it. Then you would need influence in the media to control the stream of information to the public to prevent any knowledge from getting out. Boy, I don't think anyone could pull that off in today's America!
;)

FWIW, I doubt he knew about it, but I believe he probably ignored key evidence out of stupidity, pride, or both.

[chen zhen]

Do you have any idea how many people on so many different levels would have to be involved to make something like this fly?

That is how big things are arranged. Think how many thousands of people who works in intelligence, and knows what is going on behind the scene, and who does'nt tell others. (part of the job)

mind you: I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, it would take the FBI concealing and doctoring evidence, for one. Then, you would need the President and his cabinet to agree go along with sed concealment. And of course, you would have to count on the Democrates not having enough b@lls to stand up and make any noise about it. Then you would need influence in the media to control the stream of information to the public to prevent any knowledge from getting out. Boy, I don't think anyone could pull that off in today's America!

I know you were being facetious but quite frankly, think about what you just said. You're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of people. Then there's the little guys to count too. The grunts on the line...

Trust me, it doesn't make sense.

[MasterKiller]

Trust me, it doesn't make sense. Look on the back of a 1 dollar bill. Do you think that pyramid and eye are there because the founding fathers were Egyptphiles?

Masons....Illuminati....

It's all there in black and white...or green....

[Merryprankster]

chen zhen,

True, but those thousands largely do what they do out of a sense of duty. And no, I'm not kidding. Hell, I'm one of them.

It would be anathematic for more than 99.9999% of those people to do something like this.

When you think about the number of people in the super secret squirrel world and the number of people we caught doing the whole traitor bit, it's really pretty small.

[Merryprankster]

Masterkiller, please tell me you're kidding.

[chen zhen]

yeah, it just takes one person to expose something like that. One person out of thousands.
just think about the Vanunu-case.

So conspiracies are (probably) not the case.

btw, MK, it reminds me of the thread I made about Bush being a secret masonist..:p

[Merryprankster]

Chen Zhen--exactly! All it takes is a few people to expose something like that.

And then, when you factor in all the volunteers and firemen and policemen and government agents who investaged etc etc... they can't all have been on the take. And in our Postwatergate world, SOMEBODY would break it and SOMEBODY would expose it. Which is good for us all incidentally.

[chen zhen]

that's why it's good the truth is beginning to come forth (the original thread subject).

[Merryprankster]

Well, the truth about how the system was broken at any rate.

But they'll look straight beyond that and say "He should have known! He's incompetant!"

Not "The system was screwed up! Nobody was sharing information the way they should have thanks to years of executive orders and archaic procedures! Fix it!"

On the other hand if he was incompetant, "He should have known!!!" :D

[MasterKiller]

The Dollar Bill Exposed (http://freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/onedollarbill.html) :eek:

















Masterkiller, please tell me you're kidding.;)

[chen zhen]

Anyone remember this? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21522&highlight=freemasonry)

:D :p

[MasterKiller]

I forgot about that. But that Ghthomason cat posted some live Public Enemy lyrics. Chuck D speaketh the truth.

[chen zhen]

:p

now THIS OT topic is going OT! :D

[chen zhen]

bush & freemasonry (once again...) (http://freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/bizarreskulls.html)
From MK's link.
Freemasonry &, uhhh many other things... (http://freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/P2.html)
Freemasonry in connection with Al-Qaeda!! (http://freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/sufi.html)

:D:p:rolleyes:

[Chang Style Novice]

When I say "shoulda known" that's what I mean. In other words, hubris and incompetence prevented the proper steps from being taken by the administration, not that evil in Dubyuh's heart was responsible.

[chen zhen]

Who talked about the devil?:p

It just shows that America may not be as great a country as they want it to look like. Can't even save it's own citizens, how can they then start saving other countries?
A paradox.

[MasterKiller]

It just shows that America may not be as great a country as they want it to look like. Can't even save it's own citizens, how can they then start saving other countries? We prevented you from eating Kraut for dinner, didn't we?

[chen zhen]

U can't always use that as an easy way to get out of an argument. Remember that the US was never interested in entering WW2 before you where attacked yourself in Pearl Harbor. If you where really the great saviours and hero's of WW2, then you would have done something about hitler in the beginning of the war, and not have looked on passively in 2-3 years, while millions where being slaughtered in Europe & East Asia. Remember, Europe have experienced wars on our own territory for more than 2000 years, while you have only experienced a couple of wars on your own ground (and those where civil wars, you've never been attacked from outside, with US soil being a battlefield)

[Chang Style Novice]

"Remember, Europe have experienced wars on our own territory for more than 2000 years, while you have only experienced a couple of wars on your own ground (and those where civil wars, you've never been attacked from outside, with US soil being a battlefield)"

Not quite true. Ironically, the battle of Pearl Harbor is a recent example contradicting this statement. There were also border skirmishes in the Mexican American War. And the westward expansion was pretty much the US carrying out war on all the indian tribes available.

[chen zhen]

Have you seen L.A., Washington D. C. , and N.Y.C. Carpet-bombed to smithereens by german Bomber-planes? Have you seen Vietcong Guerilla in firefights with American soldiers in the middle of Atlanta? Have you seen Iraqi tanks driving through the Deserts in Texas?
I don't think so. U live on an isolated continent , so that you can send out your big-ass Military machine to selected spots in the world, and then go home again if you want. If a war was fought on US soil, i don't think you could handle it.

[MasterKiller]

If you where really the great saviours and hero's of WW2, then you would have done something about hitler in the beginning of the war, and not have looked on passively in 2-3 years, while millions where being slaughtered in Europe & East Asia. We weren't in the business of being the world's police force back then. We just came in to clean up your mess once it spilled into our country.

The real question is: Why didn't you Eurpoeans stop Hitler from organzing an army capable of taking over Europe after the Treaty of Versailles? Why didn't you enforce the treaty before he got out of hand?


and those where civil wars, you've never been attacked from outside, with US soil being a battlefield Beating back the Brits twice doesn't count, huh? I guess you never heard of a little thing called the American Revolution? Maybe your American blue jeans are too tight, your American sneakers are on the wrong feet, or you are playing your Marilyn Manson too high to think straight right now. That's OK. :rolleyes:

[chen zhen]

Beating back the Brits twice doesn't count, huh? I guess you never heard of a little thing called the American Revolution?

That's why I said civil War-S , if you remember, the first settlers where brits too, so in essence it was'nt a war between 2 countries.


We weren't in the business of being the world's police force back then. We just came in to clean up your mess once it spilled into our country.

Why are you then being a "world police force" now? Quite frankly, you've not succesful in "cleaning up others mess" in the last 50 years, 'cos as far as I remember, Korea is still half communists, and you where beaten silly in Vietnam. the first Gulf war was initiated because of economic interests, as where Nicaragua, Panama, haiti and other Central American countries, which was won because of the powerscale (How should they win in any way?), and to help Dictators which was being toppled by their populations (hmm.. another paradox!). The situation in these countries are now much worse, with drug, poverty, and violence issues.
Afghanistan does'nt seem to be much better than before, in fact there's more war now than before, and if u turn on CNN, it does'nt seem that the Iraqi's are that happy anymore by being occupied.
Bosnia may be an exception, but i don't really now much about that issue.

So, apart from WW2, and keeping the powerbalance in the cold war, what good have you really done in the last 50 years?

[Chang Style Novice]

Jiminy Wilikers! I said not QUITE true, thereby acknowledging the basic truth of the statement.

"If a war was fought on US soil, i don't think you could handle it."

What other choice would we have? This is a truly dumb assertion.

[chen zhen]

"If a war was fought on US soil, i don't think you could handle it."

What other choice would we have? This is a truly dumb assertion.


I'll take that statement back, since it's unlikely that it would ever happen. The way your homeland security is organised, it is based on Terrorist attacks, and not a war with a foreign invading country. Because you have never thought of the possibility that it would ever happen. Which it would'nt.

[MasterKiller]

, 'cos as far as I remember, Korea is still half communists Go ask a South Korean sometime what they think of America. Or anyone else below the 38th parallel that isn't under communist control, for that matter.


and you where beaten silly in Vietnam.France got us into that one. And wouldn't go so far as to say "beaten silly." It's not like we were invaded twice in 40 years, or anything.


the first Gulf war was initiated because of economic interests,Ask a Kuwaiti sometime what they think of our involvement in the Guld War. I talk to one every week through my job. He named his daughter America.


Why are you then being a "world police force" now? Quite frankly, you've not succesful in "cleaning up others mess" in the last 50 yearsI assume you mean besides bankrupting the Soviet Union? You're lucky you aren't sipping Vodka with your Kraut while you are watching American movies.


So, apart from WW2, and keeping the powerbalance in the cold war, what good have you really done in the last 50 years? Who else has done more than that???? Denmark? I think not?

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by chen zhen


I'll take that statement back, since it's unlikely that it would ever happen. The way your homeland security is organised, it is based on Terrorist attacks, and not a war with a foreign invading country. Because you have never thought of the possibility that it would ever happen. Which it would'nt.

Well, it looks that way now anyway. But everything changes. Rome fell, why not the USA?

[MasterKiller]

Nothing is permanent, and one day, maybe even Denmark will be a Superpower. Until then, keep making those wooden shoes, or whatever it is you do.

[Chang Style Novice]

I think it's those gnome books.

[norther practitioner]

what good have you really done in the last 50 years?

Um, are you serious dude? :rolleyes:

[chen zhen]

Go ask a South Korean sometime what they think of America. Or anyone else below the 38th parallel that isn't under communist control, for that matter.

Read this (http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/uglykorea/accidentcol.html)


France got us into that one. And wouldn't go so far as to say "beaten silly." It's not like we were invaded twice in 40 years, or anything.

read this (http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0861795.html)

The french where already out of Vietnam 8 years before US involvement.



Ask a Kuwaiti sometime what they think of our involvement in the Guld War. I talk to one every week through my job. He named his daughter America.

read this (http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-11/24/article06.shtml)
The Kuwaitis hate America as much as any Arab would say he does.

[chen zhen]

Until then, keep making those wooden shoes, or whatever it is you do.

Yeah. REAAL good argument. Use some wise-ass prejudist joke, or use the old "U would be eating Kraut"-cliche. Can't u come up with something better?
And no, we're not eating kraut or drinking vodka (metaphorically, of course we do:D)
, but we're eating cheeseburgers from McDonalds, drinking coke, and watching nothing but american B-movies, it's just the other way around, see?
And u can't use that argument to a chech, or a pole. Why were'nt these countries saved? because you where allies with the sovjet, and a deal was made. The survival of the world depended on either superpower, so we "small" countries had to bow down to a lesser evil. Did we have a choice? It was not about being anti-american or not, it was all about trying to survive from a nuclear holocaust.

[Laughing Cow]

Chen Zhen.

Forget it, they don't share the same experience as we do:

1.) The never had one of their cities firebombed.
2.) None of their Citiies were ever so fully destroyed that not a single glass-pane remained intact.
3.) They never suffered 5~10yrs under occuption forces.
4.) They never had travel restrictions and similar imposed by occupation forces.
5.) They never were "invaded" and occupied by enemy troops.
6.) Besides a few minor wars they never had to defend their homes from invaders.
7.) They never were annexed and had a goverment imposed on them and were prosecuted for supporting the old one.
8.) They never saw their neighbours, families and friends taken to camps and death for sundry reasons.
9.) They never had to rebuild their country from rubble & destruction.

Cheers.

P.S.: I am NOT getting involved in this discussion.

[chen zhen]

LC, uh, u not american? I don't know if you're being ironic, or what..:confused:
But thanks anyway.

A couple of interesting articles about WW2:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/cia_coop_w_nazi.html
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/nazi_cia_consortium.html

"..home of the brave, and the free..."

:rolleyes:

[chen zhen]

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/hitchens_rogueusa.html oh, please read it.

[Laughing Cow]

Chen Zhen.

I am middle european.
;)

[Chang Style Novice]

You wusses don't want to mess with a real american like me? You think you've had it tough? This is the drivers licence photo I received today! Try not to wet yourself in fear.

[chen zhen]

German? Austrian? Danke Schön for your help;)

Another point: European countries have made up, and are friends. We have realised that war is not the solution, after our continent was nearly fully destroyed. That is not the American way of thought, because the US knows that if they fail in a war, they can pack up their gear and leave, home to your cosy homes, while European countries knows the consequences of war, because our potential enemy would be right across the border, not on the other side of the globe.

[chen zhen]

lol, that is one catastrophic photograph!:eek::D

now, please read this:http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/Carter_PeoplesHx.html

[Chang Style Novice]

It should make Sun Tzu feel better about his snapshot skillz, anyway. I mean, I know I'm no matinee idol, but - D@MN! I was smiling and everything, too. Or I thought I was.

[norther practitioner]

CZ... keep believing the hype... It makes for entertainment.

Rogue US...lol..

[Laughing Cow]

CSN.

I am quacking in my boots with laughter.
;)

Next time choose a better shirt.

[Chang Style Novice]

The shirt isn't that uggo in real life either.

[chen zhen]

The "hype"? you think that I critizise the US because it's "popular"? I say things the way they are, and if you want to close your eyes and ears to the facts, then do so. But then don't bother me or others with your half-wittedness.

Screw u guys, I'm going home. U yankees are too stupid to understand anything.

(as u might have noticed, i'm pretty p!ssed off right now, so any insults i've made I may have regreted tomorrow.)
:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

European countries knows the consequences of war, because our potential enemy would be right across the border, not on the other side of the globe. It took you 3,000 years to figure that out? And you guys criticize our school systems?:rolleyes:

BTW--When are you guys gonna get so civilized that you allow Turkey in the EU? Or are they too 'brown' to be European?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

BTW--When are you guys gonna get so civilized that you allow Turkey in the EU? Or are they too 'brown' to be European?

Why don't you mind your own business?

Turkey will join when Turkey and the EU is ready.

[chen zhen]

Turkey does not live up to EU standards, and has serious human rights problems. When they have bettered their issues, then we might let them in.

And don't talk to us about it as a case of racism, I could as well say "When are you gonna let them poor mexicans and Puertoricans across your borders, too brown for ya?" U have serious social problems, as well as others do.

U need to do your homework.

[Merryprankster]

Chen Zhen and LC both drink the Haterade on this subject.

You'll never be able to convince them that people are people the world over and that their countries are just as (if not more so!)directly and indirectly responsible for the state of things today as the United States is. Although I find Chen Zhen emminently more reasonable.

Here's a bloody little dose of reality for you:

1. Europe as a whole has almost no force projection capability. Europe wants more impact in world affairs, wants the U.S. to listen a bit? Develop this capability. Europe sat under the umbrella of U.S. protection during the Cold War and scaled their militaries back accordingly. Fix this situation. That way, "Europe" can stop *****ing about how the U.S. is handling stuff wrong and can do "it" the right way. Sure, our economic power is pretty big, but so is the EU. However, the EU can't park 90,000 tons of 'diplomacy' off the coast of a nation to explain that you mean business.

2. There is a perception out there that Europeans are somehow immune to the horrible prejudices that plague other places and especially the big, bad United States. Bull****. Want proof--look no further than the burgeoning anti-foreigner movements in European countries right now. Fear is fear. Race riots in Belgium don't happen in a vacuum--neo-nazi resurgence in Germany and violence and prejudice against Turks--the French tightening immigration controls on North African...Continental Europe ain't a Utopia where everybody holds hands and sings kum-bah-ya. You've got the same fears and problems we've got here. The only difference is you're just NOW starting to have to deal with that reality--minority populations didn't matter before--too small to wield real power and your relationship with them before was that patronizing colonial stuff. Oh, but NOW!

3. Criticize all you like, but until the Colonial powers of Continental Europe get up off their collective turd-cutters and clean up their messes abroad, it's just hypocrisy. Everytime a U.S. Hater starts up with their arguments about how the U.S. "owes and owes and OWES," to "insert here," or has a responsibility to (set example), (help 3rd world country), (clean-up its mess), they seem to conveniently forget the CENTURIES of oppression and natural resource exploitation of their Colonial Empires that largely led to the shape of the world today. Go clean up those hell-holes you left behind--you know, the ones with the 30% AIDS rate where warlords control food supplies, women are raped as a matter of course, subsistence level farming is the norm and children die in warfare or succumb to preventable diseases. Accept some ****ed responsibility for past actions.

Oh...wait...you can't...why? See force projection in article 1....So until then, you'd rather take potshots at the U.S. for how it handles itself (which, barring Bush, has been with remarkable restraint for a major world player considering the past actions of European powers.)

Is the U.S. perfect. Hell no. But Europe doesn't stand on a ****ing pedestal in a white gown with a serene gaze, above it all. The collective brides of the EU sure aren't entitled to a white wedding, that's for **** sure.

[chen zhen]

1. Europe as a whole has almost no force projection capability. Europe wants more impact in world affairs, wants the U.S. to listen a bit? Develop this capability. Europe sat under the umbrella of U.S. protection during the Cold War and scaled their militaries back accordingly. Fix this situation. That way, "Europe" can stop *****ing about how the U.S. is handling stuff wrong and can do "it" the right way. Sure, our economic power is pretty big, but so is the EU. However, the EU can't park 90,000 tons of 'diplomacy' off the coast of a nation to explain that you mean business.

Europe was in ruins after WW2, and had to be rebuild with US econimic help, and we are grateful fot that. But that also meant that we where in huge political debt to the US, and had to accept the role as the "small and weak", being protected by the "big and strong USA", because the setback of our economy put you in the position as the west's most powerful country, very convenient for you. It was this that sat you in the position of the opposite pole to the USSR.
Now, when any european country tries to oppose US politics, you can use the apparent end-all be-all argument "we saved you from having to drink vodka with your kraut", and then we just have to keep silent. We did'nt have any other choice than having to be put in a weaker position because of the cold war, and now you think you can use this to end all criticism, because of our "debt" of WW2.



2. There is a perception out there that Europeans are somehow immune to the horrible prejudices that plague other places and especially the big, bad United States. Bull****. Want proof--look no further than the burgeoning anti-foreigner movements in European countries right now. Fear is fear. Race riots in Belgium don't happen in a vacuum--neo-nazi resurgence in Germany and violence and prejudice against Turks--the French tightening immigration controls on North African...Continental Europe ain't a Utopia where everybody holds hands and sings kum-bah-ya. You've got the same fears and problems we've got here. The only difference is you're just NOW starting to have to deal with that reality--minority populations didn't matter before--too small to wield real power and your relationship with them before was that patronizing colonial stuff. Oh, but NOW!

If you noticed, I have talked about Europe's social problems in another thread.
+, have I ever said that European countries never done anything wrong? The colonial ideology was used by europe AS WELL as the US in the late 19-early 20th century, USA owned the filipines as a colony, bought Alaska from the Russians, and still owns Hawaii.
North America is in fact the result of ULTIMATE colonialism, as the original population is nearly extinct. It's the most succesful product of European colonialism ever.
But the European countries learned a lesson from the uprisings in former colonies up to the 50's-60's, where they had to be given up. We know now that using military force to slay down on opposition can never be used. That's why we may seem weak when talking of foreign policy, as we (nearly) only uses diplomacy. But that's because WE DON'T WANT A NEW WW TO START AGAIN! U see? we learned the lesson of not using brute force as a political tool, but you have not, mainly because of your position in the cold war. So now we look like wimps and p*ssies in your eyes, but we have done all the mistakes you have, so now we oppose what we can see will turn into something big.



Go clean up those hell-holes you left behind--you know, the ones with the 30% AIDS rate where warlords control food supplies, women are raped as a matter of course, subsistence level farming is the norm and children die in warfare or succumb to preventable diseases. Accept some ****ed responsibility for past actions.

Yeah, now you can finally say that because the US finally did SOMETHING to help the AIDS-problem in Africa. If you're really the big saviours, u could have done something too, more than 10 years ago. the EU gives more foreign aid than US have ever did, it's still not much, but still something.
And if you remember, the US (as well as some european countries, they should'nt be let out) sucks out the so-called "debt" of these 3rd world countries, to keep them on their current level. So this is a shared responsibility.




Is the U.S. perfect. Hell no. But Europe doesn't stand on a ****ing pedestal in a white gown with a serene gaze, above it all. The collective brides of the EU sure aren't entitled to a white wedding, that's for **** sure

Have never said they did.



Chen Zhen and LC both drink the Haterade on this subject.

I said certain things, because I was p!ssed of, because you introduced ethnic insults into this discussion. If it was because you where being cornered, i don't know. I try to keep it as real as possible, so should you.

[Merryprankster]

I'm sorry. Where did I introduce ethnic insults? I think you've got me confused with somebody else.

Personally, I don't use the saved your asses in WWII argument. Not so hot, IMO. It doesn't justify anything. I'm quite mindful that if the French hadn't come to our aid we wouldn't be here at all.


have I ever said that European countries never done anything wrong

Nope. I was generalizing--not directed personally at you.


North America is in fact the result of ULTIMATE colonialism, as the original population is nearly extinct. It's the most succesful product of European colonialism ever.

Touche. I was referring more to the mercantilist systems that more or less created the borders and messes in 3rd world nations. As far as overseas holdings go, the scale of our "colonialism" was quite small. Consequently, the U.S cannot be held accountable for, say, the way Africa looks today. Yes, I know we bought slaves. However, the current boundaries, terrible governments and lack of infrastructure are clearly not the result of U.S. action.


We know now that using military force to slay down on opposition can never be used. That's why we may seem weak when talking of foreign policy, as we (nearly) only uses diplomacy. But that's because WE DON'T WANT A NEW WW TO START AGAIN! U see? we learned the lesson of not using brute force as a political tool, but you have not, mainly because of your position in the cold war. So now we look like wimps and p*ssies in your eyes, but we have done all the mistakes you have, so now we oppose what we can see will turn into something big.

1. There is a substantial difference between using military force to depose a bad guy and then rebuilding a nation so that when you go away, you've left sociopoliticaleconomic infrastructure behind, and what took place in the mercantilist systems. Some places have made out ok, like India--not great, but ok. Most, however are more like Somalia, Sudan, Rwanda, etc.

2. The "lesson" you've learned is that if you don't act, things fall off the radar screen and you don't really have to deal with it. Diplomacy is predicated on the idea that people and nations are rational actors. Many are not and the only language that they understand is force. Tyrants typically don't negotiate. You can't talk your way out of every fight.


Yeah, now you can finally say that because the US finally did SOMETHING to help the AIDS-problem in Africa.

Actually, I've said all this well before the AIDS thing. The world, from a geo-political perspective, looks the way it does LARGELY because of European Colonialism, vice U.S. actions. It's funny that Europeans like to remind us we've only been around a couple hundred years so we really haven't had that much impact, but conveniently ignore that if that is true then we aren't really responsible for those (for the most part) hellholes called "former European colonies."


If you're really the big saviours, u could have done something too, more than 10 years ago. the EU gives more foreign aid than US have ever did, it's still not much, but still something.

Interesting assertion. I'll check the numbers and get back to you. You might be right. I think we might give more absolutely but less in terms of percentage of GDP. I could be wrong about that though. Personally, I've never claimed that the U.S. is the savior of the world. I've claimed we aren't responsible for your messes so stop blaming us and cowboy up. I have, however, repeatedly claimed that nations, including ours, generally act in our own self-interests, as distinct from SELFISH interests. Clearly, that blueprint is not always followed, but that's what happens when you use a model, vs. reality--which, by the way applies equally to your assertion about using force and not using force. Nice idea, but doesn't always pan out.


So this is a shared responsibility.

So, on the whole, admit it, instead of blaming the United States for every ****ed thing that happens. (Not you personally, Chen Zhen.)


Have never said they did.

Again, generalizing, not directed at you. It's a bit like saying Americans are fat, self-centered and hubristic. On the whole, you'd be right. :D

[chen zhen]

It took you 3,000 years to figure that out? And you guys criticize our school systems?

I talk about europe's experiences, not that "we are too stupid to find out where our enemy is". Who is engaging in war at this moment?

[chen zhen]

I'm sorry. Where did I introduce ethnic insults? I think you've got me confused with somebody else.

I did'nt talk to you directly either, MP, I was generalising the other participants of the discussion (Mk said "u just keep on producing your wooden-shoes or whatever the hell u do").
And I try to keep this on the (foreign) political level, not talking directly to the american public. i also try to avoid inter-political issues of any country.
dig it?;) :)

I will also say that I talk out of my own bag, I only represent myself, not an entire continent. It would be too much of a burden, really..:D

Denmark have given (up until our new right-wing government was elected) up to 4-5% of the national budget in foreign aid, (one of the highest in the world) and so have many other european countries.
I'll explore how much others give.


"Mr. T 4 president", lol (http://www.i-mockery.com/goodpics/11.asp)

:p

[Internal Boxer]

I don't have an opinion on this either way, its just food for thought and it would be interesting to see if the comments made by Bush are genuine and not mis-information. Anyway -enjoy


www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html

"Bush was talking about what happened on September 11th and how he heard of the atrocities in New York. If you remember, Bush was at a school in Florida where he was taking part in a photo opportunity, which included reading a story about a pet goat to a class of children. The media around the world told us, from White House statements, that Bush heard of the twin tower attacks when his chief of staff, Andrew Card, spoke in his ear in the classroom as he addressed the children. There was the famous picture of Card leaning over Bush accompanied by headlines like: The Moment Bush Knew.

But Bush told the Florida town meeting a very different story. This is what he said about what happened that morning in answer to a question by someone named Jordan:

"Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident. But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack."

THIS IS STAGGERING - THERE WAS NO LIVE TELEVISION COVERAGE OF THE FIRST PLANE HITTING THE TOWER - HOW COULD THERE BE?? THE FOOTAGE OF THE FIRST CRASH WAS TAKEN BY ONLOOKERS AND SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS AND DID NOT AIR FOR HOURS AND DAYS AFTER IT HAPPENED. THERE WAS LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND CRASH, OF COURSE, BUT NOT OF THE FIRST - SO HOW ON EARTH CAN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CLAIM TO A PUBLIC MEETING TO HAVE SEEN IT LIVE ON A TELEVISION OUTSIDE THE CLASSROOM WHERE HE WAS WAITING TO ADDRESS THOSE CHILDREN?? AND WHY HAS NO NEWS ORGANISATION OR "JOURNALIST" PICKED UP THIS FANTASTIC LIE?

And what about that statement about "there's one terrible pilot". What?? A passenger jet crashes into one of the twin towers full of people and all the President of the United States can say is "there's one terrible pilot"!! And then he walks into a classroom to read a story about a pet goat?? God help us. "There's one terrible pilot"? We are not talking a light plane flown by an amateur, but a commerical airliner and even if it had not been a terrorist outrage, it would still have been an enormous tragedy requiring the leadership of the US president. But of course none of this tissue of lies by Bush could have happened because he could not possibly have seen the first crash on live television because there was no live coverage."

[Internal Boxer]

In addition:

"As Associated Press reported on September 12th: "In Sarasota, Florida, Bush was reading to children in a classroom at 9:05 a.m. when his chief of staff, Andrew Card, whispered into his ear. The president briefly turned somber before he resumed reading. He addressed the tragedy about a half-hour later. "

"Briefly" remained somber?? He's just been told that the New York twin towers have been struck by commercial airliners. Death and destruction on a massive scale was already obvious and the President was "briefly somber" before continuing to read a children's story? Bush told the town meeting:

"But I knew I needed to act. I knew that if the nation's under attack, the role of the Commander-in-Chief is to respond forcefully to prevent other attacks from happening. And so, I've talked to the Secretary of Defense; one of the first acts I did was to put our military on alert."

BUT HE COULD NOT HAVE TALKED TO THE SECRETARY OF DEFENCE UNTIL HE FINISHED THE GOAT STORY AND LEFT THE CLASSROOM AND ONLY THEN DID HE PUT AMERICA ON ALERT. HOW MUCH CRUCIAL TIME WAS LOST THAT COULD HAVE PREVENTED, FOR INSTANCE, THE ATTACK ON THE PENTAGON, WHICH HAPPENED 40 MINUTES AFTER THE SECOND TOWER WAS HIT?"

[Laughing Cow]

MP.

Of course we drink haterade.

Thanks, to the US that supplies it so well and in many different flavours too.

Don't want us drinking it, stop serving it out to the rest of the world.

Seeya.

[Merryprankster]

LC,

On a completely unrelated note, your icon looks an awful lot like a "brahmin" from Fallout and Fallout 2.

On a related note, you've once again demonstrated a lack of historical perspective. Thanks for playing our game!

Internal Boxer--I was on a Counterterrorism watch floor when the first plane hit the WTC. The initial reports for about the first 15 minutes were that it was NOT a terrorist attack. Don't ask me why.

[Merryprankster]

Chen Zhen,

The U.S. gives around 0.1% of it's GDP in aid. However, we rank first in terms of absolute amount given, and first in economic aid (absolute terms).

[Chang Style Novice]

It's a wildass guess, but I'd say that there was some belief that saying it WAS a terrorist attack would cause even gretaer panic, and since they probably didn't know squat at that point, why risk greater panic?

[chen zhen]

>Chen Zhen,

The U.S. gives around 0.1% of it's GDP in aid. However, we rank first in terms of absolute amount given, and first in economic aid (absolute terms)<

Thanks for the clarification, I wan't to rely on facts, not assumptions.:)

[Budokan]

"Have you seen Vietcong Guerilla in firefights with American soldiers in the middle of Atlanta?"

Thankfully, no. And we can thank Shrub for that one, too. Word must have gotten out to Ho Chi Minh that Shrub was on the job "flying" jet aircraft in the National Guard -- that was enough to scare those Commie bast*rds away from our shores, by God!

[tnwingtsun]

"If a war was fought on US soil, i don't think you could handle it."



We handled it in the 1860s to where entire towns and familys ceased to exist.

Some numbers FYI


The Price in Blood!
Casualties in the Civil War

At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000. The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.
The Union armies had from 2,500,000 to 2,750,000 men. Their losses, by the best estimates:

Battle deaths: 110,070
Disease, etc.: 250,152
Total 360,222

The Confederate strength, known less accurately because of missing records, was from 750,000 to 1,250,000. Its estimated losses:

Battle deaths: 94,000
Disease, etc.: 164,000
Total 258,000


Relative to the population in the era those numbers were staggering.

This was a Civil War and both north and south invaded each other with most of the battles fought on Southern soil,so invasion in every aspect it was with the Union Army using a scorched earth policy to great effect.

The former Soviet Union did a study on an invasion and occupation of the United States should war ever break out between the two countries and came to the conclusion that the losses would just be to much for them to handle,armed citizens
everywhere would be too much of a drain on their manpower and resources.
Sweden was another country the Soviets had plans to by-pass
because of their cold war home guard force structure.


Plus we could handle it because we have more rappers here than any other country:D

[chen zhen]

We handled it in the 1860s to where entire towns and familys ceased to exist.

Yes. Still a civil war, as I said,not an invasion from a foreign country. +, war is not fought today as it was 140 years ago.;) nor, for that matter, 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago.


Sweden was another country the Soviets had plans to by-pass

f*ck sweden!:D:p;)


Plus we could handle it because we have more rappers here than any other country

yeah, call P. Diddy and jay-Z, and see what they can do..:rolleyes::D

[tnwingtsun]

"Yes. Still a civil war, as I said,not an invasion from a foreign country. "

Those can be the worse kind(if there is such a thing)
Invasion was all too real to those whos women were raped houses burnt to the ground and livestock pillaged,this happened to both north and south,I know they didn't think of it as a tea party.

" war is not fought today as it was 140 years ago. nor, for that matter, 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago."


The principles of war have never changed.

You're still not factoring in the Second Amendment,which would have a big impact on ANY invading army,a socialistic country
would be much more easy to conquer and pacify,they're used to being told what,when and were they can do things
;)

[chen zhen]

Those can be the worse kind(if there is such a thing)

True. war is war, but I meant the strategic way the war is fought. that is, the details.;)


The principles of war have never changed.

true. it's all about killing other people. but, I'm again talking about the details.;)


You're still not factoring in the Second Amendment,which would have a big impact on ANY invading army,a socialistic country

I don't know the second amendment.;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by tnwingtsun
We handled it in the 1860s to where entire towns and familys ceased to exist.

How many people are still alive to talk about the horrors of that "War"??

With experiene I am talking things that happened relatively recently and where survivors still exist ( WW II and after).

I sat at my Grandfather's knee and listened to stories about the War and his imprisonement in a Camp, as well as "first-hand" accounts about the occupation and the devastation of my home-town.

History takes on a slightly different meaning and affects you differently than if you just read about it in book or get a lecture in class.

This is experience not something you read in a history book.

[chen zhen]

I have to agree with LC. I have family-members who experienced WW2, and who have told me of their experiences. Americans also have this (but limited to being soldiers), but the civil war is still not something people can talk of having experienced.
But then again, I brought the subject of the civil war up..:rolleyes:

[tnwingtsun]

Xcuse me gents,my bad I came in on the thread late,but just in time to read CZ's post,

"If a war was fought on US soil, i don't think you could handle it."

Hard to say,hope I never have to find out

After all CZ you did say,
"I wan't to rely on facts, not assumptions."

;)

You're right LC,nothing can take the place of first hand accounts,the letters found in my family's bible from that period shine more light on what happened than any history book I've read.