sleeper hold

[mtod1]

Hi all.

I was training in class the other night, going through headlock counters when one of my classmates asked about getting out of a sleeper hold. I was hoping some of you might like to share what technique(s) work for you.

Thanks
Seeya

[rubthebuddha]

same with any hold -- use what weapons you have available. if someone has your neck, you have two hands, two feet, two elbows, two knees and the rest of your body -- use them!

if by sleeper you mean the traditional lion tamer, you only have a few seconds before you black out. the rear elbow strikes very common in your siu nim tau and chum kiu (could be biu jee as well, but i'm not there yet. :p) are great for rib shots. use your feet to disrupt their base or just stomp and break all the little bones in the tops of their feet. gan sau to the rear behind you is fantastic for a nutshot.

no matter what you do, use what weapons you have available and use them with as much speed and aggression you can. you have a few seconds before nightnight, so you better use them wisely.

[KenWingJitsu]

Standing or on the ground? Cos if it's on the ground and he's got you, you're already halfway to la lal land.

[burnsypoo]

and for god's sake, relax. The tenser you get, the quicker you'll go.

[anerlich]

As most have said, once it's on, you are basically on the way out. Best stop it before it starts. Twisting and rear elbow strikes are your best bet, assuming you never saw the guy coming and let him attack you from behind in the first place.

If the guy has his forearm across your windpipe (not the ideal way to do the choke, though it does hurt and could damage your trachea), you can relieve some of the pressure by turning your chin in toward the elbow of the arm around your neck.

A common tactic is to take the person off balance after locking on the choke (if they are not already on the ground) which severely limits your options for escape or retaliation. One of the most professional bouncers I ever saw used this technique almost exclusively - his partner would distract the obnoxious punter, he'd apply the choke but not put it on tight, and take the guy off balance backward, and just quietly walk him to the door, the guy staggering trying to stay on his feet.

If you want to learn how to escape the position on the floor, learn some jiu jitsu. WC has nothing that even comes close in effectiveness to BJJ back control escapes, though even then the position is a very bad one (they don't come much worse) and the odds are not in your favour.

Common wisdom has it that this choke "cuts off the blood supply to the brain", but that ain't quite right. If it were, the chokee's face would go white rather than the usual crimson.

It appears to be possible for an expert to greatly reduce if not eliminate his susceptibility to this choke. Rickson is reputedly practically unchokable by mere mortals, with video evidence to support it.

[kungfu cowboy]

Just use tan sao to disperse the force around your neck to the ground. This will sap his strength and make him release the hold.

[Shaolinlueb]

rowdy rody piper ownz you man. :D

[saulauchung]

The effectiveness of Wing Chun should not allow you to get into that situation if your opponent is not superior than you. If, through your own stupidity, you allow someone to do so then you have yourself to blame. If you do get out, you opponent is either physically weaker than he is untrained skill-wise.

In other words, you're ******. Do whatever you have to if you're facing death.

What do you do when a skilled gunman points a loaded gun at you at a close distance? Silly question! Before he draws his gun, or before you're in such a disadvantaged position, you need to finish him off or get the hell out of there.

[namron]

Originally posted by anerlich

If the guy has his forearm across your windpipe (not the ideal way to do the choke, though it does hurt and could damage your trachea), you can relieve some of the pressure by turning your chin in toward the elbow of the arm around your neck.


Wouldnt it be better to turn away from the elbow joint?

If you turn your throat into the elbow your opponents might end up with a nice snug fit on your adams apple in the crook of the elbow and then the pressure will be worse.

[Merryprankster]

Namron,

When somebody uses their forearm on the windpipe when using a rear naked choke, turning your head to face the elbow is the proper answer as an immediate relief. The reason for this is that the person applying it isn't in the right place to do the blood choke (which is what it really is), so turning your head so that your nose points to their elbow actually CREATES rather than restricts space.

Then, tuck your chin down into whatever space is available. This will help take pressure off your adam's apple or the jugular veins.

If it's in tight as a blood choke though, you're probably about to take a nap.

Those who advocating trying to strike out of it are crazy. As you waste time doing this, you're going to pass out. There's not enough space to strike. Better to take those hands of yours, reach up, and start working on his grips. A good Judoka, BJJer or submission wreslter can show you this--or anybody else who knows the escape. I wouldn't advise steven Seagal :D


The effectiveness of Wing Chun should not allow you to get into that situation if your opponent is not superior than you. If, through your own stupidity, you allow someone to do so then you have yourself to blame. If you do get out, you opponent is either physically weaker than he is untrained skill-wise.

Garbage. Even great fighters get caught. And there's nothing magical about a style that would somehow prevent this situation.

[captain]

Judo creator,Jigoro Kano, wrote a book that shows
several defences against naked chokes.the style you
see in bjj,etc.but,why not check out some judo/bjj and
find out for sure,instead of drifting/talking about endlessly
like most wck hobby masters.

Russell

[rubthebuddha]

merry p is right. i suggest you find a buddy who knows chokes to try this with you. have him or her give you some pressure, and see what fees better as you adjust your neck with it.

and merry's spot on with the chin thing. it can lessen the pressure, and if the nob doesn't know hos chokes in the first place, he may just wind up digging his elbow nook into your chin -- not too terribly comfy.

[hunt1]

If on the ground say good night odds cvery much against escape unless your skills are much better than the choker whish is doubtfull since he got you the choke in the first place.
Stand as has been said turn into elbow, tuck chin. go limp bodyas you drop to low horse stance stepping in a fashion similiar to the T-stance stepping directly away from the choker to creat space and prevent them from taking contol of you balance. Alos this is one of the time to use point attacks since you have a nice stable target, Attack points on back oh hand , wrist area and elbow area to loosen grip This is done as you are going limp /stepping. If you get space look for 'monkey picks peach' or attacks to inside legs/knees. Must drop before choker gets contol of your balance( center of gravity).

[Tom Kagan]

Common wisdom has it that this choke "cuts off the blood supply to the brain", but that ain't quite right. If it were, the chokee's face would go white rather than the usual crimson.

The crimson color of the face you observe is a actually a symptom of what is known as the "pressor response" and is a typical biological reaction to interrupting the blood supply to the brain via compression of veins and arteries in the neck.

There are basically three physical ways to render a person unconscious quickly: 1) Neural shock, 2) Brain blood flow interruption, 3) Air supply interruption.

#1 for all intents and purposes is instantaneous. #2 requires about three to eleven seconds. #3 requires about one to six minutes.

[S.Teebas]

There are basically three physical ways to render a person unconscious quickly: 1) Neural shock, 2) Brain blood flow interruption, 3) Air supply interruption.

#1 for all intents and purposes is instantaneous. #2 requires about three to eleven seconds. #3 requires about one to six minutes.


So what your saying Tom, is WC uses the most efficent way to render a person unconscious?

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


So what your saying Tom, is WC uses the most efficent way to render a person unconscious?

Being quick does not directly correspond to being efficient.

The most efficient physical way to render a person unconscious is to simply be patient and make no effort whatsoever. With zero effort, the person will be unconscious in a few hours or so.

If another person wants to harm you and they can't, you've won. Not too many people have trained their skills to a level where they can, at will, do nothing and still accomplish a victory.

[old jong]

Always wear a heavy leather collar armed with sharp spikes dipped in curare.;)

[Merryprankster]

go limp bodyas you drop to low horse stance stepping in a fashion similiar to the T-stance stepping directly away from the choker to creat space and prevent them from taking contol of you balance. Alos this is one of the time to use point attacks since you have a nice stable target, Attack points on back oh hand , wrist area and elbow area to loosen grip This is done as you are going limp /stepping. If you get space look for 'monkey picks peach' or attacks to inside legs/knees. Must drop before choker gets contol of your balance( center of gravity).

Not so hot. Once again, trying to strike out of a lock.

Screw moving your body like that. You've got to get those grips LOOSENED. EVERYTHING has to focus only on that. You will not have the opportunity to attack hand, wrist and elbow with any effectiveness. 1st, pain does not make people release. Hell, I wouldn't. 2nd, a sleeper hold buries both hands in what amounts to unreachable locations for the purpose of striking.

Step one--Chin tuck.

Step two--Assume the choke is done with the assailant's right arm. The right hand will be buried in the crook of the left elbow or even higher on their own shoulder (one reason you can't reach it.) The left arm will be figure 4-ing the right, and the left hand will ideally be on the back of either their own head or your head.

Reach back with your left and grab the four fingers of the hand that is on your head or his head. Squeeze them together and peel that hand off. This will take some practice. This will create space--perhaps only for a second--that will expose the right arm so you can start working on that.

Step three-with your right hand, you can either--

a. Attack the exposed right hand and peel it off, if you were that successful, accompanied with appropriate body movement to twist out of the choke (not going to go into it here.)

b. Use what little space you created to get your hand wedged between your neck and his choking arm. Can't choke a man through his own forearm/fist too well.

[PaulH]

MP,

Thanks for your informative and sound posts. Just a quick question, what is your chance to eye gouge the atttacker with your fingers while you're on a sleeper's hold?

Regards,

[hunt1]

Merry you either didnt read everythng i said or dont understand how to do it which is understandable since I am not good at describing in detail what is going on. However since I have done this exact thing succesfully against a UFC heavyweight champ and against a very well know BBBJ teacher it does work if done right. The key is simultaneous motion of all steps. second you are wrong about pain . Force delievered properly to body week points brings about an involuntary recation that almost noone can train away. Example is a poke to the eyes. the insting is to raise a hand to protect and lean move the head away from the the threat. Of corce you have to break the grip right away. that is the whole point. Also you must be moving before the choke is firmly set. Alos what is different between peeling the hand by griping the fingers at what I said? You are using a method to break the grip. I suggested a usage. they both work . also there are many many other methods. Does someone have to post all possible combinations? A goal of wing chun is to understand the conscepts how you implement those concepts is up to the individual. Whta is comfortable and natual from one person may not be for another. Hence the variety we see in Wing Chun.
Also have you ever tried to drop your body when attacked by a rear choke , waste grab etc? If you dont I guarrantee anyone good will just move to another attack or takedown if you do manage to break the choke because they will still be able to control your balance.

[Merryprankster]

Ok Hunt1.

Which UFC Heavyweight Champ? What BJJ blackbelt? Secondly, I'm talking about how you get it off when it's ON, not when it's "almost on." Quite frankly what I'm talking about probably won't work that well either, if the person applying the hold is any good. But it's a lot better than poking somebody in their hand.

FWIW, you can train away flinch response. But since you don't believe that there's no point in saying that is there?

People have GOT to stop with this pain compliance crap. It'll get you killed.

I don't see anywhere where you said to grab the fingers. You talked about attacking the back of the hand.

PaulH,

You're going to have a hard time with that. A good person will have their face buried in the side of your head so it will be hard to reach the eyes. Also, their forearms will prevent a clear shot.

[PaulH]

Thanks, MP. I've done the sleeper's hold as you describe. But I can't rule out the possibility that his forearms maybe relaxed or long enough to reach further back to reach my eyes causing me a certain mental pause to deal with it and allowing him to go on with his escape plan.

Regards,

[Merryprankster]

PaulH,

Right! That's why you bury your face :D

You can also push up on the left arm (the non-choking one in my example) near the elbow to help take some of the pressure off.

Remember, all this is buying you time so you have more time to create space, because creating space is the key to you leaving!

Here's a GREAT picture sequence. Just translate it to standing. You'll see the angles are really awkward for striking attempts.

http://bjj.org/techniques/jen/tech8a/

He does it with his face exposed, but you can see that with a quick turn of his neck, his face would be far less exposed.

When I said the forearm is in the way, what I was trying to get at is if you look at his left arm, it limits his opponents ability to lift his arm up because it blocks some of the shoulder rotation.

[rubthebuddha]

what about something like crushing testicles? you can be the monkey, but don't steal the peaches, just crush them right where they are at.

merry, i understand that the harder we resist, the harder the choker would probably work on us. does your suggestion about grabbing the fingers on the back of your/his head deal with using them in a chin-na sort of way (grab, squeeze and bend the **** out of the fingers), or are you trying to do something else?

[Merryprankster]

From a sport perspective, I'm squeezing his fingers to take the grip off so I can take the pressure away. From a SD perspective, break the ****ers.

If you can reach the nuts, be my guest. But, as I'm controlling your head, this won't be that simple. I have a lot more maneuverability.

As far as relaxing or not relaxing, I don't personally care. I'm just going to choke you. :D

Guys, I gave you the wrong hand w/regards to getting the fingers off the back of the head. Should be opposite hands. Sorry. Whatever free hand you have should go immediately to the choking arm.

Oops. Sue me.

[rubthebuddha]

Oops. Sue me. you'll be hearing from my next of kin. :mad:



;)

[Merryprankster]

One other thing to note--don't take what i wrote as a gospel step by step. Use common sense--if the guy is choking you but gives you space to twist your body out so and take pressure off, take it. Any time you can take pressure off, take it. Just make sure that as you create that space, fill it back up or create non-chokable angles or you'll just wind up back at square one again!

[S.Teebas]

FWIW, you can train away flinch response.

How so?

[Merryprankster]

Hell, boxing is a prime example. I flinched the first few times I got hit in the face. Then I didn't. I blinked, sure, but I was able to look through punches that came close--it's only when I actually got hit in the face that I wound up with that closed eye thing you see in the still photos of nice shots to the head.

I'm not arguing that if somebody puts a finger in my eye and does a good job of it I'm going to react. But years of grappling have taught me to turn my head or change the angle and attempt to bury or trap the offending appendage/digit, vice creating a lot of room by pulling away. Pushing on the face, up the nose, on the chin, etc, is a common way of creating space in grappling, and fingers frequently get near or in the eyes. I don't want to give up my space, so I adjust my position accordingly to remove the annoyance while not creating extra room for you to move. I'm not going to let go--why would I do that unless I'm in actual danger of losing a body part or breaking something? Pain is just pain.

I'm certainly not going to cover my face with my hands--I'm busy choking you, pinning you, whatever. I'm just going to adjust my angles until you're no longer digging at parts.

[PaulH]

MP,

Again very sound argument based from correct positional analysis. The problem I face is what if his finger flick to my eyes is devastatingly fast and in correct timing due to his great adaptability and relaxation. Against these experienced fighters regardless of their styles you still gamble with your eyes or nose for that matter.

Regards,

[Merryprankster]

Paul,

If he's just flicking his fingers at your eyes--well, close your eyes. :D Clearly, that won't work from a gouging perspective. However, does an eye jab really do more than cause momentary pain and perhaps a scratched cornea?

I once had my eye gouged so badly in a wrestling match that my depth perception was ruined for about a day. Things were about 3 feet further away than they should have been. I just closed the offending eye and kept going. Lost though. But that was largely because the guy was just better than me, LOL!

I guess my point is that while these attacks certainly hurt, they are in no way true deterrents, unless I feel I'm going to lose an eye. And you really do need to GOUGE for that, IMO.

I often close my eyes when applying the rear naked choke just out of habit :) I did it to concentrate on the appropriate rib carriage expansion and it stuck with me. Also, like I said, if you bury your face, you'll be less exposed.

[PaulH]

Thank you for your time. You're very persuasive.

Regards,

[Merryprankster]

PaulH,

I hope you don't feel I was dismissive of your concerns. I prefer reasonable discourse whenever possible. Thank you for YOUR time, patience and open mind.

Cheers!

James

[PaulH]

You address my concerns in a very rational and considerate manner. Perhaps at some other time I can ask you more interesting and challenging questions. Your BJJ perspective comments often allow me a chance to go deeper into the WC principles to find appropriate solutions. And for that thank you for your participating in our WC forum.

Regards,

[anerlich]

Just a quick question, what is your chance to eye gouge the atttacker with your fingers while you're on a sleeper's hold?

Besides the good answers given, probably a bad idea as it invites a retaliatory response in kind. It's much easier for him, being behind you, to reach over the front of your face and put a thmb or finger in each eye, than it is for you to fumble around trying to find an eye socket behind you. You may get a finger bitten (maybe off) this way.

As MP said, grapplers are taught to position their heads to avoid gouges, head butts, and the like when clinching. Generally, burying your face is a good strategy in such a position.

MP, I agree what you're saying about striking after the hold is applied. I would argue, however, that there is a small window of opportunity, when attacked from behind when standing (not on the ground), when that first arm comes around, to spin toward the shoulder of that arm, partially undiong the not-yet-applied choke, and striking the ribs on that side with a backward elbow, optionally striking his elbow with your other hand to move it further in th antichoke direction, like moving your chin but with the whole body. It's just trying to create as much space as possible, hopefully for followup strikes, and adding to the time it takes him to sink the choke in. Once that first arm is sunk though, it's too late for these tactics, and I'd follow your advice about grabbing the arm and sinking the chin.

No tactic in this position has particularly good odds.

[OdderMensch]

MP

no point in even saying that is great advice, thats obvious. What i want to bring up is the idea of training away twitch responses. What good would kung fu be, if you couldn't train those away, heck thats why i study, my "natural fighting method" sucks :D

for the record, we train a nerally identical tech from day one, escapeing a rear choke (its one of our 'self defense' moves) we are taught to

A)tuck the chin into the elbow
B)grab the chokeing arm and 'hug' it down into our chests
C)relax and sink our weight, to regain balance
D) now, try and hit them!
hit them hard, hit them often, now that you hae some mesure of control.


then once you have you balance and have hit them, try and escape the lock compltely.

[Ernie]

hey guys don't mean to over simplify this whole choke think
but '' uninterrupted bitting has worked very nicely for me ''
i have honestly knawed my why out of quite a feww head locks and chokes , standing and the gound with my bjj training partners they hate to hold me '
there is a art called [ kina muy thai ] it's whole focus is biting and pinching , it works very well when blended with the bjj holds , i know it sounds extreme and of course a last ditch effort but when you get the sesnsitivity to pull it off it makes for instant air space , a lot of guys can take a single bite but the key is you latck on with your own hold and bite un interrupted useing the cainines not the front theeth the will just slide off .
when i was first shown the [ 12 bite positions ] the guys would actually strap on slabs of meat under there shirts and lock on and time how long it would take to tear a silver dollar size whole in the flesh , the only needed a few seconds , sick as it sounds it is 100 percent true ,
now i'm a vegiterien and i didn't do the whole meat thing , but the do a form off chi sau were the flow from lock to lock and bite position to bite position , the focus on the areas were the most nerve endings are located .
i have riped through a guys forearm that got the choke on me after slipping my chin in , i was passing out and just went for it and it worked for me on that occasion , and many times training with ground guys i'll give them a nibble and they freak out .
another way i have seen it used is in combination with trapping were mist the flurry of punches and elbows a certain un nameed individual bit a whole in a the guys cheek he was beating on and also took a piece of his eyebrow off [ sick sight]
when i asked why the heel he did that he simply replied fighting is fighting ,
i don't train with this guy any more but he did leave a lasting impression .
[[[[[[ insert damar and tyson jokes here ]]]]]

[old jong]

Dead horse?... (http://www.brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/5/deadhorse.jpg) ;)

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
hey guys don't mean to over simplify this whole choke think
but '' uninterrupted bitting has worked very nicely for me ''
i have honestly knawed my why out of quite a feww head locks and chokes , ...

I can sincerely appreciate this kind of "realism." I wouldn't recommend over doing it in sparring though, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ernie]

kathy
as much as i preach keeping it ''real'' and i step to things with open mind , i was a bit taken back , my friend was invloved in the making of a video tape with this training and after a few days of shooting he was in a different mental state very serial killerish and aggresive , but there is always something to be learned and there is always some one who is going to take it to the next level .
there getting ready to shot a attribute development video that's going to be insane i'll keep you posted when it comes out but what i have heard so far it's off the hook but very extreme

[kj]

Thanks Ernie, and I'll stay tuned for it. Just glad I'm not a co-star. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[old jong]

Have you seen somebody bite for real?...I mean for real!....I seen this a few times at my work and it's not funny at all to see a guy eat a big chunk of meat from his victim's arm. It looks very effective to me.
I doubt anybody,as tough as could be, could whistand this kind of abuse.

[Ernie]

old jong
yep i toke a chunk out of the guys forearm that was choking me , iwas gross but effective but i am germ phobic so i was all paranoid about catching some thing . it's defenitly a last resort but a honest tool and like any tool it can be perfected , just got to be wanting to go there , i'll try and dig the training video up and ask if i can share it on my server if you want to check it out .

[TenTigers]

Merry Prankster- you have a great idea with the grabbing of the fingers. I will see if I can work it into my version for added effectiveness.
As far as flinch response-here's the deal-if yo are doing this technique correctly-with the figure four hand position, you will choke off the air as well as the blood supply, and biting is out of the question as the head is being locked down into the choke. Unconciousness occurs in about 4-6 seconds for most people. (I've played this choke with moderate pressure-most will tap out within 4 seconds.) Eyes are not a target since you can turn your head, groin strikes can be endured, since you know your opponent will be sleeping in a few seconds-just grit your teeth and lock it in harder. You can also forget those 'wasp stings' -pinches to the inner thigh. The thing we have found is you can (possibly along with MP's finger hold) slide your left hand up behind your head and grab his trachea, while digging your fingers into the soft tissue under his jaw.Use a crab claw or southern eagle claw- He can turn his head, but his neck stays. Pass your left forearm over your head, while pulling his head back, turn clockwise and strike the throat with a right knife hand. You can also pull him down and drop a right elbow. So far this has worked pretty well, but if the guy has the hold 'finalized' you are up xit's creek, without a paddle. (xit is pinyan spelling)

[Merryprankster]

, partially undiong the not-yet-applied choke, and striking the ribs on that side with a backward elbow, optionally striking his elbow with your other hand to move it further in th antichoke direction, like moving your chin but with the whole body.

Anerlich--no argument! But I was trying to specifically address when it is locked in. Not the "before" part--which is where you want to be countering anyhow!

Ernie--if you could bite him, he wasn't doing it right :D Or, more precisely, you got your chin tucked before he got the lock in (good on yah.)

Ten Tigers, you commented that if it's finalized, you're hosed. It's not finalized until you're out. You still have a chance, but the time frame to act is quite limited. Not to be obvious (you're not stupid and don't need a lecture), but everything you do has to be focused on increasing that window, until you are no longer in danger of passing out. When I've taught this or discussed it with people before, I get a lot of the "what if they drag you, throw you down, etc.?" My response is that it's better than being unconcious.

Done ideally, a rear naked places no strain on the windpipe. It is strictly a "blood" choke. That is, the effect comes only from the fact that you are cutting blood flow from the brain (not to the brain...). You can still breathe. It just doesn't do any good. It's like a triangle (leg choke). You can still breathe ok (not great) with a triangle on, but you're going to pass out anyway.

When I'm talking about a rear naked choke, I'm talking about specifically the way it looks (hand/arm position-wise) as it does in the link I provided. A one arm choke from the rear is a joke. Consequently, if you can break that hand off your head and move it, you take a great deal of the pressure off and that buys you more time.

Just to make sure I wasn't feeding you guys a line of crap and/or missed something, I had my fiancee put me in a standing rear-naked when she got home. Peeling the hand off your head WORKS. One arm is not sufficient to hold you in place as your body moves to escape the "remaining" choke. I won't lie to you though--even on her I had to use both arms to peel the hand off two out of five times. Squeezing those fingers together really helps though. And you have the added bonus of trying to break them in a self defense situation.

Oddermensch, what you say has merit, but with re: to holding their choke arm down (pulling it towards their chest), the person will move with you if they have the rear naked locked in. With a one arm choke or some of the much weaker versions of the two arm choke, this works nicely though!

My personal experience is that it is nice if you can get it, but I'd rather get that hand off my head.

[namron]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Namron,

When somebody uses their forearm on the windpipe when using a rear naked choke, turning your head to face the elbow is the proper answer as an immediate relief. The reason for this is that the person applying it isn't in the right place to do the blood choke (which is what it really is), so turning your head so that your nose points to their elbow actually CREATES rather than restricts space.

Then, tuck your chin down into whatever space is available. This will help take pressure off your adam's apple or the jugular veins.

If it's in tight as a blood choke though, you're probably about to take a nap.

MP,

thanks for that, the jaw in and down to take the pressure from the neck clarified things for me. I was mostly curious from the standing situation and sleeper hold from behind, where the stock standard response in our 'tribe' was to turn away from the elbow and grab the choking arm to try to take the pressure off, whilst 'trying' to work the body out to the side aka side head lock position.

Curious too in Anerlich's response as he has a twc background like myself with a strong ground work platform too.

[namron]

Originally posted by captain
Judo creator,Jigoro Kano, wrote a book that shows
several defences against naked chokes.the style you
see in bjj,etc.but,why not check out some judo/bjj and
find out for sure,instead of drifting/talking about endlessly
like most wck hobby masters.

Russell

Russell,

Steady on mate! :confused:

I respond to what I can use on this forum.

If I drift its for want of a suitable topic.

I ask the questions as I would about any other topic - to learn - not to spurn.

I have already taken your advice re judo and bjj. I continue to train bjj to improve skills although I am relatively new starter with only a couple of months in.

[captain]

g'day blue,sorry about the briskness of my "advice".its just
that compared to judo/bjj message boards,most wck dudes
either groundhog day the same ole questions around and
around,or they never follow good advice.an honest comment
like:"confused about locks/ground/grapple/chokes?then go
get some judo/bjj lessons,tell the teacher what you have in mind"
but the response is always the same:nothing!or they gripe!
who would have believed that wck would have become a
white collar hobby![to most..before you gripe more.]

Russell.

[anerlich]

Curious too in Anerlich's response as he has a twc background like myself with a strong ground work platform too.

namron,

Not saying you've been taught wrong, but the standing rear naked's been in my instructor's teaching since at least the late 80's and the response has always been the same, turning toward the elbow, long before my instructor started taking BJJ (c. 1998).

If you can, by all means still grab the arm and work your way out to the side. While I gloss over a lot of detail, that's the essence of one of the basic BJJ escapes on the ground from that position in any case. Except you still turn toward the elbow (with your whole body, that has the effect of undoing the choke, whereas turning toward the wrist actually tightens it up.

[namron]

Thanks anerlich I work it through with a few training mates.

Russell, no sweat, I dont get on this board nearly enough to respond quickly which can kinda make me look like a backseat driver!

[hunt1]

MP guess i was glossing over to much. the hand grab you mention is basic Chin Na Chin na includes cavity press, sealing the breath, sealing the blood along with join manipulation. I am referring to other types of Chin na thats all.Attacking L7 P6 L8 H6 will weaken the grip. Attacking MUE 50 24 22 will release the fingers for example . You cannot train this reaction away. It will have differing degrees of effect it affects everyone. Attack P2 TW 11 12 will deaden the arm SI7 will open a clenched first for example. These point do work and one of the few times you can use them well is against a stationary target like a habd or arm gripping you in a choke. Dont believe me try em yourself.They will loosen the the choke. How long depends on the parties involved.

Also to escape from a proper locked in rear choke is next to impossible so escape must be done before it is locked in. Locking in encludes either raising the victim up on his toes or tucking the head and using body weight to sink the victim deeper into the choke along with attcking/controlling the victims legs. Once the balance is controlled from behind escape is almost impossible not totally but close. Also to whomever mentined wasp stings to the legs ;attacks to sp11 or s 34 will buckle the leg. Any leg. person may not go crashing to the ground but thats not what is needed either. Again dont believe me try it and see .
Also nothing I mentioned as anything to do with using pain to control the opponent or controlling the flinch reflex.

[Merryprankster]

You're speaking greek to me now, but if it works for you, great. I'll trust gross motor movements over finding specific points on somebody's body as my peripheral vision collapses and my ability to exhibit fine motor skills becomes impaired. But, as I said, if it works for you, lovely.

And, as I have outlined, you CAN get out once it's locked in. But it ain't easy, it's still tough, and you have to move fast and know exactly what you're doing to make space and keep it.

[Ernie]

m.p.
I'll trust gross motor movements over finding specific points on somebody's body as my peripheral vision collapses and my ability to exhibit fine motor skills becomes impaired.

that my friend is something many people don't understand since they don't put themselves under that type of pressure ,
like the guy that says well if i strike these pressure points in this sequence at this time of the day , you will be knocked out ,
fine , but how are you going to pull that off on me while i'm moving and hitting you , not going to happen.

gross motor movements and balisitic tools with a dash of animal nature tend to overwhelm the fine motor skills when it hits the fan .
add in fatague and emotion and the thought of getting choked out and then stomped on tends to make for a $hitty day

[HuangKaiVun]

Add a little bit of Wing Chun technique to that real stuff of yours and a sleeper hold is EASILY BROKEN, Ernie.

When somebody is choking me, I always attack the wrists of the opponent. I either grab the opponent's wrist or try to slide a finger or limb into the space between the choking wrist and my neck. Tan Sau works great for this.

As much as I can, I always try to turn my side to the opponent. Chum Kiu helps with that turning motion, particularly the four alternate side double blocks that allow you to move your legs while still being held in position up top.

[captain]

anyone know something of this bill underwood defendo?

[Merryprankster]

HKV,

You aren't choking with the wrist in a rear naked. At least, not ideally.

Biceps and forearm.

[vingtsunstudent]

just wanted to ask the grappling folks, who of you have applied the rear naked choke on somebody that has their neck down through good luck or actual knowledge and then used the exact same rear naked on either their eyes or around their jaw to help get them back to the position you want them in, for the actual choke.

this is one of the moves shown to me and is really quite a painful move itself. your jaw feels like it's about to be seperated from your face or your and brains can feel like they're about to be sent across the room out your eye sockets.

having actually used it on about 5 occassions i can say that it works quite well at getting your opponent in a the position for you to either finish him with the choke or simply control him if you are a work situation.

vts

[Merryprankster]

vts,

Yes and yes. But, it is, at the end of the day, just pain. Better than passing out! I personally find it easier to just crossface the hell out of them to get them to raise their head though. Faster for me.

I do have to admit though, that there is at least one guy I know that is freaky strong (I've seen him crush an apple in one hand) that could probably make you tap from that. He misses the neck with most of his chokes....but it doesn't matter because he pushes your head so far back it restricts airflow through your windpipe and you have to tap anyway.

[vingtsunstudent]

hi MP

it is an odd one because if you get it on well, the first response from everybody on the recieving end is to lift their head and give you their neck, which is really cool when your working security as the rear naked can be a great controlling move, let alone the fear it can put into people when they think they're unable to breath at all. after showing that you have that sort of control over the person you will usually find that about 99 percent of people are happy to do what you ask, mind you there's always gotta be that 1 percent.

as for the pain these moves themselves can cause, it need only be applied by a small person on large in the right spots for that pain to be truely unbearable, at least that's what we found.

vts

[Ernie]

HuangKaiVun

i love when people recite the wing chun answers like a text book, fisrt i will use my tan and the my jut and then my bil jee twist and then and then and then ,
good lord man
it's not like some is just walking up to you all nice and aware and then trying to put a choke on you . you have made mistakes that got you in that position in the first place , you won't be in a proper state of mind or have the timing to insert plan [a'] from page 345 in the wing chun escape real life scenrio chapter .
you will more likely be trying to recover from something bad that has already shell shocked you and given the person the green light to choke you ,
thus all other stuff has already failed , now it's for real try and think out of the box , plans don't work
my answer is simple i put fangs on the dude his arm his chest what ever i can sink my teth into i grab on tight so he can't escape and just start tearing away , screw him he wants to knock me out and ply taps on my head ,
this is a do or die situation , not a drill were a friend is holding your neck.

[reneritchie]

One thing to consider is that a RNC, the way most people are describing it, is a very nice, elegant, technical way of doing it (the way a teacher would show a student on the first day so as not to hurt or scare them). People are then taking this and saying they would bite, stab, etc. their way out of it.

To give perspective, let's say a grappler wanted to work on stand up and to help them out you through a very nice, slow, predictable punch, and their response was to spike you on your head you and perhaps break your neck, then tell everyone how grappling would counter the punch attack.

If we're talking real application, a RNC will be a crushing, wrenching, highly destructive movement with lots of opportunity for other damage during the set up (shoes kicking your legs, groin, etc., elbows striking you in the head, neck, etc.), and your trachea and spine at the neck level can also be damaged if the person is being ig'nant.

If anyone's serious about defending RNC or any other kind of grappling movement, find someone in Judo, BJJ, or similar with *at least as much if not more experience than you*, and work through it in a step by step manner. Find out what they need to do to choke you (ie., get you to give up your back, get their arm around your head, apply pressure in certain directions, etc.) and then figure out how you can disrupt each stage of their set up, up to and including when its being applied. Then train the heck out of it so its reflex.

BTW, MP, I think Hunter is referring to classical Kum Na (Chin Na, Qinna, which means Seizing & Holding) and is supposed to be a component of every Chinese MA, and include 4 sections of work: air choking, blood strangling, cavity striking, and muscle tearing/joint breaking. Most arts apply this as something closer akin to what you'd see in Aikido (standing apps).

[hunt1]

good points Rene. One thing everyone seems to miss is that its 5 seconds to a choke out once a choke is locked in but 1 second or less to a neck break.

[reneritchie]

Hey Hunter,

Even plain vanilla neck cranks are scary. Its really not an area for people to fool around with. It would be like trying to learn Siu Nim Tao from a wrestler or math from an English teacher, or swimming from a track coach. Always find the best (most experienced and knowledgeable) person within the specific area you want to learn/train.

[yuanfen]

I can think of atleast two deaths in my metro area in the last few years of law enforcement restraint around the neck going wrong- resulting in big payouts.

[reneritchie]

Joy,

They are illegal in some areas for LE and everyday folks alike. (not considered reasonable use of force in most situations).

[old jong]

It is better to treat these things the same as strikes...You dont defend against a punch after it landed!...;)

[yuanfen]

Well put Old Jong!

[yuanfen]

You have to be alert to avoid being blindsided or the sucker punch and you have to be alert to avoid the python's grasp
and/or it's completion.

[namron]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
vts,

Yes and yes. But, it is, at the end of the day, just pain. Better than passing out! I personally find it easier to just crossface the hell out of them to get them to raise their head though. Faster for me.

I do have to admit though, that there is at least one guy I know that is freaky strong (I've seen him crush an apple in one hand) that could probably make you tap from that. He misses the neck with most of his chokes....but it doesn't matter because he pushes your head so far back it restricts airflow through your windpipe and you have to tap anyway.

Merry the re cross face bit.

I had this windshield wipe used on me at a seminar some months ago as an opener when bracing one hand against the side of the head to prevent the choke going on. The guy running the seminar also used it to effect from the mount to open up leading into an armbar.

Bloody annoying and pretty hard on the snoz from what I can remember (been a while).

I assume your using the forearm across the nose or jaw or is there no need to discriminate?

I bet you some of the greco wrestlers would just about crack your jaw open with a high crank around the jaw rather than the neck.