Front kick to round kick

[apoweyn]

In an effort to keep up the technical talk, have a look at the video here: http://www.kickboxing.com/members/video/page2.asp

The one called 'front kick to round kick.'

Then comment. Whaddya think?


Stuart B.

[MasterKiller]

We call it a low-high kick, and usually use an instep kick to the groin as the fist move. When I do it while sparring, I like to kick the calf muscle with a roundhouse, then go high. I don't use it often because my high kicks suck.

[apoweyn]

That version makes much more sense to me Masterkiller. Either of them, actually.

Here's my problem with this guy's logic:

1) He reasons that you've got to shoot the front kick into the stomach to get a reaction out of him. To scare him. Personally, I'm much more scared of getting wailed in the knee than the abs.

I think he's reasoning that a person won't lower their hands in response to a knee kick. And he needs them to so he can round kick the head. But that doesn't make much sense to me because...

2) Okay. He doesn't lower his hands. Then you've just kicked him in the knee (shin, thigh, etc.) The effect off of that is more compelling to me than a flinch reaction. If he responds, you get your reaction. If he doesn't, you get a free shot on the knee.

3) Look at his assistant's guard. It's pretty good. If I were him, I'd be looking to block the front kick to the stomach with the points of my elbows. That would keep my hands up by my head, meaning that when he flipped that round kick over, my hands would already be up to stop it.

In theory, at any rate.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

couldn't see the vid here at work.

this is like the only combo I do with anything resembling speed.

I don't go mid to high like this guy apparently is but low to high and usually low-middle to high-outside.

as a combo or fake combo the opponent has to fall for the bait of the first kick otherwise the upper door doesn't open. if the door doesn't open you can't land it.

however, if you are using the ball of the foot on the round kick instead of the arch/instep then you can still sometimes connect even if a block comes up.

[red5angel]

I don't like it. Waste of energy in my book unless the guy is stunned and just standing there or I can get big points in some tournemant. Keep your leg up that long and someone might just tear it off and feed it back to you.

[David Jamieson]

I learned the value of this from sparring with a kyokushin guy who used it.

When done correctly with the speed and power necessary to pull it off, it's a great technique.

By the way, a kick to the head is only a waste of time if you are unable to do it. :D

My personal experience is that people who are against kicks to the head are usually the same people who cannot do them with any effectiveness.

Not being mean, just saying. my sifu was and is totally comfortable with kicks to the head. My training partners are ok with them too and make no mistake, they are devistatingly effective.

cheers

[apoweyn]

Personally, I'm okay with the kick to the head. I'm just not jazzed with the setup. How many people here would feel the need to drastically alter their guard position to block a front kick to the abs and a round kick to the head?

[red5angel]

When done correctly with the speed and power necessary to pull it off


That's my problem with it. I guess I always assume a self defense for the general public type attitude. That kick is not practical for your average martial artist, in my opinion.

If for some reason I felt like I would have to kick someone in the head instead of using my much closer hands then I would kick low to the shins and then high. Other wise if it were life or death I would fold the knee backwards to bring their head much closer to my feet before I kicked then in the head.
I'm with you AP, no reason you can't just pull the elbows in to stop it. If you are feeling really lucky you might be able to get a hold of his leg before he gets around to the round kick.

[apoweyn]

I'm with you AP, no reason you can't just pull the elbows in to stop it. If you are feeling really lucky you might be able to get a hold of his leg before he gets around to the round kick.

Yeah. Though, in retrospect, I guess I wasn't even thinking about it from a self-defense or realistic standpoint. I was mostly just thinking about the guy's actual reasoning process.

That said, I don't want to limit the conversation to what I was specifically thinking. So game on.


Stuart B.

[Judge Pen]

I agree the first kick doesn't have to be to the stomach. A leg or groin kick might work as well. Anything to get the guy to shift his guard down somewhat may set up the second kick.

Of course the first kick may be blocked or jammed by the elbows. Any technique has a counter. It's the timing and skill of the fighters that make the technique successful. Feel your opponent out with low front kicks and see how he reacts. force him to drop his guard before you throw the second kick.

One of my favorite kick combos works off a back sweep. I like to sweep back and let my opponent think I'm open. Most of the time the person will shift their weight to counter punch. At that time I bring my leg up for the round kick to the head. I'm not particularly fast, but I have this timing down pretty well. What do you think of this technique?

[Oso]

I don't see what there is to debate, really.

If the first attack is intended as a fake and doesn't work then you obviously can't follow up as you initially planned.

this would be the same for any combo where the subsequent attacks depend on the success of the previous attacks. that's just fightin': you keep trying combos till something lands then follow up depending on the affect of the damage.

Theory: it is a viable comination whether you go mid-to-high or low-to-high.

Fact: relative skill (among many other thing) will dictate whether you are succesfull

[red5angel]

Oso, if the first shot is a fake this combination is really weak. Most people wouldn't have any problem getting their arms from down to up before you could go from sidekick to round kick.

Besides, fake is generally a waste of time. Fighting is too dynamic, too often there is a lot going on. While the chess game idea is nice, unless it's a chess game where you are throwing hand fulls of chess pieces at each other I don't think it works so nice and neat. Throwing feints just seems to be a waste 99% of the time. If that first kick isn't a real kick then why bother.

[norther practitioner]

Depends on the feint....
I use kick feints to close distance all the time. Works well for me.

As far as that fake to the stomach roundkick, I would like it more if used as the combo, but if that guy gets it to work, so be it.

[red5angel]

NP, good example and one of those few occasions I would agree they are useful.

[David Jamieson]

watch the film again.

You'll get a sense of how kicks can be trained to have speed like hands.

As for the idea of blocking kicks, well, I personally would prefer to get out of harms way. You could get some minor protection from a ridge block but trust me, you are going to absorb the force of the kick and it is still gonna ring your bell, block or not.

Legs are heavy, shins are hard, you could get a broken forearm out of an attempt to stop a kick. evasion or at least deflection is preferable to a stop.

cheers

[red5angel]

I can understand that some people may have fast kicks, but not everyone does, so from a self defense perspective, it's not an apropriate answer.
In a sportive or sparring situation, I am willing to bet your opponents hands are going to be faster then your kicks.

[fa_jing]

This tech exists in Northern Shaolin. Double kicks are cool but as mentioned, it takes a lot of practice to be able to pull them off.

[David Jamieson]

red5-

In my personal experience there is no maybe this, maybe that, perhaps most, only some, etc etc.

Be prepared for anything because one simply does NOT know what they are going to be hit with in sport or real fighting.

Some people may be fast with their hands but have no control or power, sometimes you are just not expecting things, and truly, many martial artists are terrible at anticipating and can only trade blows with the stronger striker defeating the weaker striker.

Kicks that are well trained are just as devistating and just as fast.
Yes, there are people who can't kick their way out of a burning cardboard box, but those who have trained and trained and trained them are not to be taken lightly, they will take your head off with their kicks.

Good point on North Shaolin Kicks :) heel kick up under the jaw is a killer!!!

cheers

[apoweyn]

Oso,


I don't see what there is to debate, really.

Dude, it's a desperate bid to talk shop while I'm stuck at work. That's all the validation this debate needs.

:)

[David Jamieson]

musing about kicks to the head is a remedy for ap's boring job as well and for all intents and purposes are effective at the quelling of the boredom.

what do you do anyway ap? plugger? typer? reader? or bunfiller?

:D

cheers

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
watch the film again.

You'll get a sense of how kicks can be trained to have speed like hands.

As for the idea of blocking kicks, well, I personally would prefer to get out of harms way. You could get some minor protection from a ridge block but trust me, you are going to absorb the force of the kick and it is still gonna ring your bell, block or not.

Legs are heavy, shins are hard, you could get a broken forearm out of an attempt to stop a kick. evasion or at least deflection is preferable to a stop.

cheers

I've watched it about eight times now, personally. And, having spent 5 years in taekwondo, I worked a lot of these combinations myself for a long time.

My thought was simply that the whole point of his lesson was that the first kick needs to open the opponent up for the second. But it doesn't. His assistant's guard isn't (nor should it be) "broken" by that first fake. His hands remain up at all times.

Granted, for the demo, he takes that first kick right in the bread basket. And covers up for the second. But in that case, the combo worked backward. The first one hits home. And the second one is blocked.

Yeah, a good hard roundhouse will blow through a block if that's all you're doing. But as the defender, it wouldn't take much to either take a short step forward (so that you absorb it at the knee rather than shin or foot), evade backward, or zone away from the arc of the kick a bit. Any would take a lot of the sting out of that round kick.

All I'm questioning, really, is that the front kick probably won't garner the reaction he's looking for (i.e., the opponent dropping his hands away from his head). A lower target might. (God knows I've dropped my hands to defend my leg, as feeble an idea as that is.) And if it doesn't, free shot to the knee, shin, calf, etc.

I'm not suggesting that double kicks don't work, personally. Only that I find his rationale for specific targets to be flawed.


Stuart B.

[David Jamieson]

kick to the jimmies followed by kick to the head is bad?

I agree, you don't have to kick the solar plexus, you can kick the knee and then the head, or jam the shin then headhunt, or the inner thigh.

It is and they all are legitimate targets in combat. (actually, everything is a target in combat) and there is no preference for me in reality, I will hit what I can hit because it's in range.

Setting someone else up for a finishing blow only works when that person you are setting up has less experience and less ability. Some folks will see a setup for what it is and may even have an interesting counter for you when you try it :D

cheers

[apoweyn]

Judge Pen


Of course the first kick may be blocked or jammed by the elbows. Any technique has a counter. It's the timing and skill of the fighters that make the technique successful. Feel your opponent out with low front kicks and see how he reacts. force him to drop his guard before you throw the second kick.

Absolutely. That's SOP for feints of this sort. My point is that I don't believe he'll get a more desirable reaction off of the gut shot than off of the knee shot. I think he'd be better served with the knee shot.


One of my favorite kick combos works off a back sweep. I like to sweep back and let my opponent think I'm open. Most of the time the person will shift their weight to counter punch. At that time I bring my leg up for the round kick to the head. I'm not particularly fast, but I have this timing down pretty well. What do you think of this technique?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'sweep back.' Is this a retreating footwork where you're luring him into following? Or making like you're going to sweep his leg?

If I'm picturing this right (and that's unlikely), I'd worry that an aggressive counterpuncher is going to close distance fast enough that you can't get that kick off at optimal range. But, as always, the truth is in the pudding. If you consistently pull it off, that carries much more weight than my theoretical concerns.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
kick to the jimmies followed by kick to the head is bad?

Oh no. I'm all about that combination. For one thing, guys tend to overreact to threats to the jumblies. For another, if you land, you're going to get a reaction. It won't necessarily be a fight ender. But it'll create an opening of some sort.


I agree, you don't have to kick the solar plexus, you can kick the knee and then the head, or jam the shin then headhunt, or the inner thigh.

Also nice ideas. Now we're talking.


It is and they all are legitimate targets in combat. (actually, everything is a target in combat) and there is no preference for me in reality, I will hit what I can hit because it's in range.

Word.


Setting someone else up for a finishing blow only works when that person you are setting up has less experience and less ability. Some folks will see a setup for what it is and may even have an interesting counter for you when you try it :D

No doubt. Actually, my 'feints' have become much more abbreviated in recent years. Dipping a shoulder, pivoting a foot, that sort of thing. Nothing as big as executing a whole kick. Less energy expended. Fewer openings in my own defense. Etc.


Stuart B.

[norther practitioner]

I'm not suggesting that double kicks don't work, personally. Only that I find his rationale for specific targets to be flawed.

I think his rationale for specific targets is for accuracy training... you need to practice with targets when doing something like this, or the dumby will get knocked around a lot and you need to practice to targets. It is the only way I have found to get any real control especially with kicks.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
musing about kicks to the head is a remedy for ap's boring job as well and for all intents and purposes are effective at the quelling of the boredom.

what do you do anyway ap? plugger? typer? reader? or bunfiller?

:D

cheers

You nailed two out of four, mate. I'm a writer/editor. That encompasses typing and reading, methinks. Not sure about 'plugging.'


:)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


I think his rationale for specific targets is for accuracy training... you need to practice with targets when doing something like this, or the dumby will get knocked around a lot and you need to practice to targets. It is the only way I have found to get any real control especially with kicks.


Isn't the knee a target? Or the shin? Both would require as much control as the abs, without the risk of hitting elbows.

(I incapacitated myself for a week once by kicking someone on the elbow.)

[MasterKiller]

(I incapacitated myself for a week once by kicking someone on the elbow.) I broke the ball joint on my big toe when someone blocked a high kick with their elbow. I was out of commission for a few weeks.

[norther practitioner]

They are targets, no doubt, I'm just saying target specific training does help you with accuracy.. not talking about validity of the target.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by apoweyn
I'm not sure what you mean by 'sweep back.' Is this a retreating footwork where you're luring him into following? Or making like you're going to sweep his leg?

If I'm picturing this right (and that's unlikely), I'd worry that an aggressive counterpuncher is going to close distance fast enough that you can't get that kick off at optimal range. But, as always, the truth is in the pudding. If you consistently pull it off, that carries much more weight than my theoretical concerns.



I re-read my post, and I didn't make it that clear. I'm talking about a sweep of his leg from the inside of my stance out. Aggresive counter-punching can give anyone who relies upon kicking techniques problems, but I'm counting on the person to move in to time my follow-up. Then the kick comes up behind their hands as they are attacking making it difficult for them to react. I've been burnt a couple of times, though, but its usually by people that follow with a kick instead of a hand technique.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
They are targets, no doubt, I'm just saying target specific training does help you with accuracy.. not talking about validity of the target.

I gotcha. No argument there.

Shouldn't be arguing, period. Just chatting. Mea culpa. :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I broke the ball joint on my big toe when someone blocked a high kick with their elbow. I was out of commission for a few weeks.

Gah. You win.

[norther practitioner]

The nastiest thing I've ever seen is a parried to caught punch (lead hand), the guy then pulled the arm, side kicked mid abs then round kick to the head..... it was so out of a movie, but seeing double kicks always reminds me of this. The kicks were not done full strength or else it would have just been brutal.

fyi the side kick slid in about 1/2 the stance width then right over the arm with the round kick while letting go of the arm.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
The nastiest thing I've ever seen is a parried to caught punch (lead hand), the guy then pulled the arm, side kicked mid abs then round kick to the head..... it was so out of a movie, but seeing double kicks always reminds me of this. The kicks were not done full strength or else it would have just been brutal.

fyi the side kick slid in about 1/2 the stance width then right over the arm with the round kick while letting go of the arm.

Sounds impressive. What were the experience levels of the respective fighters?

[norther practitioner]

One was one of the best stand up fighters I think I've ever seen, the other was a intermediate kung fu practioner who's sparring skills were fairly impressive.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
One was one of the best stand up fighters I think I've ever seen, the other was a intermediate kung fu practioner who's sparring skills were fairly impressive.

Let me guess which one was on the receiving end. :)

[Oso]

you guys are all losers w/o real jobs :D

i'm currently sweating my balls off and would love to continue this debate but have more crap to do.:(

but have no fear I have more to say about this combo.

so, continue talking amongst yourselves from your nice air conditioned cubicles and I'll think bad thoughts about all of you as I continue weedeating.

[Shuul Vis]

im pretty tall, not too many people try to kick me in the head. If they do it doesnt have much power in my experience. At the most, it would jar me for a sec but i could take the hit and thats only if they actually catch me with it. This technique is ok if you can do the high kick with power and are comfortable and quick with your high kicks. But for me, i would only do this on someone who was say about....3 feet tall.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Oso
you guys are all losers w/o real jobs :D

i'm currently sweating my balls off and would love to continue this debate but have more crap to do.:(

but have no fear I have more to say about this combo.

so, continue talking amongst yourselves from your nice air conditioned cubicles and I'll think bad thoughts about all of you as I continue weedeating.

Cubicle? I have a nice office with a window. Dam! I need to get back to work before I lose my job! :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Dunno if this has been covered but....

1. The front/round combo... I have found it much faster, and draws their guard down better to fake quick at the knee, then go to the head.

2. Did anyone watch the reverse hair grab escape? Dude completely sets himself up for a nice knee to the face.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do Dunno if this has been covered but....

1. The front/round combo... I have found it much faster, and draws their guard down better to fake quick at the knee, then go to the head.

Word.


2. Did anyone watch the reverse hair grab escape? Dude completely sets himself up for a nice knee to the face. [/B]

Yeah. I was thinking that same thing.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

to me, this breaks down real simple.

irregardless of the specific technique almost any combo that works from a physiological standpoint (meaning that there is some linkage from one tech to the other) can theoretically work IF the rube falls for the fake. This means the fake has to be convincing and not just a leg flapping in the wind. The caveat for the defender is the question of whether it's a fake or a real kick. The 'fake' should be thrown in a manner that if the opponent DOESN'T fall for the fake then the fake becomes a commited attack.

the only san shou I've ever seen live was a the Great Lakes Tourny in Cleveland in '99 and I saw a guy get laid out with nearly this exact combo. The attacker chambered his leg and sorta double pumped it in the chamber and the defender fell for it and went low and caught the kick right up side the noggin. Not exactly the front-round we're talking about but the same fake theory, imo.

red5, it seems that you don't like it because you don't believe anyone is going to waist arm movement AND leave themselves open by dropping their arms to block the low kick. You are absolutely right, that's stupid. But, some people are stupid. Those are the ones you hit with this. It's a simple fake.


I can understand that some people may have fast kicks, but not everyone does, so from a self defense perspective, it's not an apropriate answer.


that's not really a valid statement. people who don't have fast kicks should not do this may be true but that doesn't mean that everyone should not do this.

throughout our training we all pick up things we like better than others. this one happens to work for me both as a combo where i will peg a low target then a high one and as a fake.

find stuff that works for you, drill it so you have the form right:eek: then try and use it fighting/sparring. if it doesn't work go back to the drawing board.

[Oso]

ok, just looked at the vid finally.

i disagree with his statement that you can't fake them with the low kick. imo, this is exactly backwards. his partner is demonstrating how easy it is to shift the arm just a bit to cover both gates.

and, if that guy was throwing that kick I would just catch it high and step into him...that is if he wasn't crying cuz he just broke his toe on my IRON BODY.:cool:

[Oso]

and, yea, he got kneed in the face but just didn't know it. he doesn't have enough control over the wrist to affect the body well enough to prevent another weapon from attacking.

if i'm not mistaken that is a bad example of a technique theat YJM has in one of his books, cept YJM doesn't bend at the waist...I'll have to look and see.

[Shaolin-Do]

mmm...
Those vids gave me a nice chuckle.
Not stoned either.
:rolleyes:
those kickboxing matches at the bottom are pretty d@mned funny too...
The "sliding side kick" clip is great too... has a 3rd degree bb right up front throwing f*ckin round houses.....
good ol amerikarate.
:D

[yenhoi]

Besides, fake is generally a waste of time

Bullshiito.

:eek:

[Shaolin-Do]

HIIIYYAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*krotty chop*

[David Jamieson]

The 'fake' should be thrown in a manner that if the opponent DOESN'T fall for the fake then the fake becomes a commited attack.

an excellent observation.

In regards to the movie, I think what he wanted to convey was that a low kick may not be seen in the periphral vision of your opponent where the gut or solar plexus will 100% of the time get a guaranteed reaction, or a dropping of the guard.

I have experienced low kicks coming in so fast at initial engagement that I didn't realize they were there until they were there!

He seemed to be emphasizing that in order to assure your opponent drops his guard, move the feign into his field of view for sure so he attempts a block. If you can get in, get in, but if he drops, kick em in the head.

Anyway, that's what I got from it.

cheers

[Oso]

In regards to the movie, I think what he wanted to convey was that a low kick may not be seen in the periphral vision of your opponent where the gut or solar plexus will 100% of the time get a guaranteed reaction,


which brings up another point: if you(impersonal) can't see a low kick w/ your peripheral vision then where the heck are you looking anyway?

Where does everyone look? For me it's the dan tien (or however you spell it). I'm having fits right now cuz of this sport jujitsu i'm trying because the stand up in it is essentially sport kumite and I'm being told to look 'em in the eye.

I finally figured it out last night. In the sport kumite there are not big leg attacks, just some low sweeps. Without the threat of a debilitating low leg attack you CAN move your range of vision up and have a better look at the primary threat of the hands.


or a dropping of the guard.

if so, then isn't there guard too high to start with? but they are karate guys and it looks like sport karate at that, so maybe they are mostly thinking all high gate attacks. but still, shouldn't your guard be structured to cover the most vital areas of the head/neck/upper torso w/o much movement at all?

[yenhoi]

Your standing guard should appear to shut down most major lines on you. I think this should include how you position your lead/rear leg/knees, your hips, your shoulders your lead/rear hands/elbows and your chin.

Some guy in the boxing section of http://go.to/stickgrappler explains this very clearly.

Your guard also allows you to 'fake' people when you choose to appear to have an "uncovered" line. Attack by Drawing.

;)

[Oso]

Your guard also allows you to 'fake' people when you choose to appear to have an "uncovered" line. Attack by Drawing.


good point, yen.

Drawing--I'd like to hear from some non cma guys on this. It's a fairly widespread concept in cma but I don't recall any discussion about it in any of the cma vs. mma threads. NOT trying to get that bs started hear, plenty of other threads happening for that crap. Just curious as to whether it is a concept in so-called 'non traditional' groups.

[yenhoi]

Lots of Discussion on Drawing in JKD rings and 'specialy Boxing circles. Not to mention fencing books. (I havent talked much to actual fencers..)

:eek:

[yenhoi]

I would also say that any grappler once you knocked on his head a few times would be able to tell you alot about drawing, even in his standup game.

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

giving an opening is quite common in cma.

Where to look? you can effectively read a persons whole body and it's motion by looking at the triangular area that goes from shoulder to shoulder and meets at the dan tien.

this allows you to see any shoulder movement which governs the arms, and the hip motion which will show you which leg is coming up.

One thing, you should almost never look your opponent in the eyes. If you can get someone to look you in the eyes, you can hold them there while your refined techniques smash on through.

cheers

[Shaolin-Do]

Ill stare in someones eyes just till i hit them, so they know Im not happy and mean business.
:)
When Im actually in a fight however, I prefer to look about 1 inch above their solar plexus. Gives me a good overall view of who Im fighting.

[The Willow Sword]

to kick that guy in the blue in his BALLS when he does that useless technique. you see how the student was guarding against it? arms and elbows up and tucked. you can hunch down a bit and time it so that when that kick does come up,you just lift your foot to his nads and thats all she wrote kids.

MRTWS

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
ok, just looked at the vid finally.

i disagree with his statement that you can't fake them with the low kick. imo, this is exactly backwards. his partner is demonstrating how easy it is to shift the arm just a bit to cover both gates.

and, if that guy was throwing that kick I would just catch it high and step into him...that is if he wasn't crying cuz he just broke his toe on my IRON BODY.:cool:

Aha! Now we're on the same page. :)

I was never debating the value of feints. Only the value of his reasoning. (And perhaps that particular combination)


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Kung Lek,


In regards to the movie, I think what he wanted to convey was that a low kick may not be seen in the periphral vision of your opponent where the gut or solar plexus will 100% of the time get a guaranteed reaction, or a dropping of the guard.

That's an interesting point. If he doesn't see it till it's hit, then he's not going to react. That makes some sense. Though, personally, I think I'd rather take the free shot on the knee and whatever openings that creates.


Stuart B.

[Ray Pina]

Hsing-I's attitude is that you can kick me ONCE, and that kick should put me down. But to fake low with no real intent, you will not be in position to deliver a second kick ... this granted that a defender take a Hsing-I mindset and come in on that first kick.

Generally, I don't fear a leading kick, in that it has not been set up by hands. The intention is too greedy. It's similiar to thinking one can just come up and hook someone in the jaw. If you can do that, the person you are playing with is not that good.

To lead in, like TKD, with a kick that has not been set up, well, you are on one leg. Even if you land that first kick, the kickers intention was not so deep and a defender stepping in will break his pushing angle.

That second, weight going backwards roundhouse to the head need not even be adressed.

[Oso]

But to fake low with no real intent

in my book a fake must have the intent of the real thing or it is not a good enough fake. so, you are correct. between two good players it comes down to the ability to read one another accurately.