Plyometrics any good ???

[KingMonkey]

Hi,

I'm looking to develop a program to increase my kicking power and was wondering if anyone had had any good results with plyometrics and if so could suggest any tips, books or links to more info.

Thanks

[datou]

Plyometrics are excellent, though they can be quite tiring at first. The best thing to do is to start slow and build your way up. There are a few books available at amazon.com on the subject, but one of the best books is the Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do textbook by I believe Chris Kent and Tim Tackett. It has a little section in the back about the subject which provides a few exercises which are more than enough to improve your kicks.

One of my favorite exercises for kicking/leg strength is running up stairs.

[IronFist]

You're not really supposed to start doing plyometrics until you have a decent base of strength. I believe it's something like being able to bench and squat 1.5 times your bodyweight or something like that.

IronFist

[Serpent]

Originally posted by IronFist
You're not really supposed to start doing plyometrics until you have a decent base of strength. I believe it's something like being able to bench and squat 1.5 times your bodyweight or something like that.

IronFist

Why? That makes no sense. Ploymetrics for explosive power and speed are far removed from maximal stength.

[IronFist]

Something about the fact that plyometrics place a huge deal of stress on your muscles.

This is why I would assume that's true, but it's just a guess. I don't know that much about plyometrics:

If you weigh 150 lbs and you jump, you have to lift 150lbs. If you're doing plyometric jumping, you're coming down with your 150lbs of weight + all that extra force from gravity you get from falling down from your previous jump, so that when you land and immediately force yourself back up again, you're essentially dealing with a lot more than 150lbs.

Ford or El Pietro probably know more.

IronFist

[abobo]

A couple of weeks ago I read an article by Dr. Mel Siff where he suggested a calf exercise in which you jump with dumbbells but drop them before hitting the ground.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by IronFist
Something about the fact that plyometrics place a huge deal of stress on your muscles.

This is why I would assume that's true, but it's just a guess. I don't know that much about plyometrics:

If you weigh 150 lbs and you jump, you have to lift 150lbs. If you're doing plyometric jumping, you're coming down with your 150lbs of weight + all that extra force from gravity you get from falling down from your previous jump, so that when you land and immediately force yourself back up again, you're essentially dealing with a lot more than 150lbs.

Ford or El Pietro probably know more.

IronFist

No, I disagree. A star jump is a plyometric exercise and a good one too. Plyos should be part of any MAist's training, whether they're big strong or not. Your body will only let you do what you can and jumping is great exercise.

Really complex or weighted plyos should be approached with caution, but otherwise I say go for it!

[Ford Prefect]

Serpent,

I can see where Iron is coming from. Plyometrics are generally considered an advanced training technique that somebody should not attempt until they have a modicum of base strength built. This isn't because it isn't damaging to the muscle, but rather because the trainee would benefit more from that base strength and would respond better to plyometrics because of that added strength than if they just jumped right into it.

[Serpent]

Possibly, but that's not really how I look at it. I'd rather see someone able to do star jumps and skipping and stuff before I put a barbell on their shoulders and had them doing squats.

I guess the degree of diificulty of any given plyo exercise is the key here. I wouldn't expect someone with no stength training to do advanced plyos, I guess.

[neigung]

so plyometrics are calisthenics?

[Serpent]

Not exactly. By definition:



Main Entry: plyo·met·rics
Pronunciation: "plI-&-'me-triks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: perhaps irregular from plio- + -metrics (as in isometrics)
Date: 1981
: exercise involving repeated rapid stretching and contracting of muscles (as by jumping and rebounding) to increase muscle power


Plyometrics are essential for martial artists to develop good speed and explosive power. A punch or a kick, especially into a heavy bag or a person, for example, could be considered a plyometric exercise.

[Ford Prefect]

Neigung,

Plyometrics are not calisthenics although some calisthenic exercises can be termed plyometrics. ;) Basically, what a plyometric exercise is an exercise done explosively. Example of how these could be done calisthenics or with weights are:

Pushing = clapper push-ups; bench presses done explosively with a light weight

Jumping = star jumps or barbell squats done explosively with a light weight

The function of a plyometric exercise is to train the targetted muscle to be quicker and more explosive. How it does is this is because whenever you try to move a weight quickly, your body needs to fire a high number of muscle fibers in order to make the movement quick. When you continue to do these exercises for a bit of time, your body adapts and makes the exercises less stressful to itsful by doing just that: firing a higher percentage of muscle fibers. Plyometric training is almost 100% neurological is this regard.

This is also why nearly every strength coach for olympic athletes and pro athletes require that their athletes build a base of strength before trying such advanced drills as plyometrics. Building up your maximal strength will not only physically build your muscles, but your nuerological efficiency (firing of more muscle fibers) will be built as well just like in plyometric exercises.

The results of this will be:

-Athlete A strength trains for maximal strength for 2 months. Athlete A gains a good amount of strength and undergoes gains in neurological efficiency similar to those undergone in plyometrics.

-Athlete B focusses on plyometrics for 2 months negating maximal strength training. Athlete B will be slightly more neurologically efficient, but will be nowhere near as physically strong as Athlete A.

Which would you rather be? Would you rather be strong and quick? Or would you rather be weak and quick? The choice is yours.

[Jowbacca]

Wow, so a 250 pound guy would need 375 pound bench & squat; while a 220 pound guy would need 330 pound bench & squat before they should ever start messing with plyometrics?

Sounds a bit much. I could see the squat happening, but a 300+ pound bench is hard to imagine without a spotter and a ton of time in the weight room.

[Ford Prefect]

Nope. It's completely different based on sport, body type, fitness level, weight, etc. As weight goes up, the power : weight ratio goes down. There are various formulas which can compare the lifts of two men that aren't close to the same weight, hence the coefficients from competitive powerlifting which do just that.

Regardless, there are no set numbers. Plyo's are an advanced technique meaning that you should have a base level of strength (training) before using them.

[Jowbacca]

Well I'll try to figure out some way to get my lifts up to at least my bodyweight.
At the moment, with no spotter, I gotta use dumbells and the smith machine (or whatever you call the squat rack with the rails).
Been focusing more on weight loss lately than strength though, so I'm happy I'm even touching weights & not stressing out that I ain't lifting heavy.

[Ford Prefect]

Do you have access to a regular squat rack? Smith machine's are notorious for causing injuries and damaging ligaments leading to inuries down the road.

[Ford Prefect]

BTW, how much do you weigh and what is your body composition like?

[Jowbacca]

I can get one of those pseudo-racks that people use for lunges, but no traditional squat rack cage.

I haven't been too thrilled with the smith machines so far. I like doing a$$ to the ground squats (or as close as I can come) and the rails really put it at an awkward angle; squatting less than half what i used to normally squat.

Body composition? 5'10. Long, skinny arms & legs; small wrists and ankles, somewhat of a spare tire look; right now between 215 and 220, with pretty high bf%- but have been trying to cut it. Used to be a swimmer, dunno if that has anything to do with it. The only type of "diet" or "eating" that makes me lose weight is calorie restriction.

I'm in one of the pics that Suntzu posted a little while back. It shows me 20 to 30 pounds heavier, in a bad squatted position (poor form). I can dig it up if you want...

[Suntzu]

i have a squat rack... Chop... it's not the cool cage one tho... but it holds the bar up....

[Ford Prefect]

That's the reason why they cause injuries. They force people into unnatural ranges of motion and stress the connective tissue greatly. I think I know what you are talking about with that other rack. I used one of those for a while myself. I haven't squatted with a spotter in years. I never truly max out because I have to stay comfortable, but I haven't had a single problem.

It's a funny thing about swimming. Some studies have shown that excessive time in the water premote a greater degree of fat storage due to the body trying in insulate itself. It could be why you don't see many ripped swimmers. I swim every week myself, and I've noticed an increased difficulty getting as shredded as I used to be. Could be me getting older though. :)

I'd do some reading on diet. Getting all your macronutrient intake in order can make the difference between losing weight and an extremely successful diet.

[Jowbacca]

Suntzu
Thanks for the offer, think i"ll just use the "open" rack that I use for lunges, dead lifts, and even barbell curls

Ford
I've been reading t-mag for a good 2 years. I've also tried a bunch of different diets: atkins, mayo clinic, mediterranean, the zone, mrp diet, etc etc. I got bad diarrhea goin for anything more than .5g of protein per pound of bodyweight; but I got more results overall from upping my protein than anything else (supplement wise) that I've ever done.

In all honesty though, I don't have the patience or the time to lose .5lb a week, while putting that much time into planning food, eating crud i hate, and constantly tweaking so i don't go into "starvation mode" or whatever.

According to that one research study, during severe calorie restriction, the high bodyfat % people averaged 75% of weight lost being bodyfat. I also don't mind losing lean muscle mass. I just can't be over 200 anymore. I've found something that works for me. It's not too hard to do, not much suffering, haven't been losing much strength (the squat thing's from the smith machine), and it's not "make or break". It's pretty much the same thing that worked for me back in high school when I lost a lot.

Once I get around a weight range I feel comfortable at, I may stop what i'm doing in favor of a more moderate, lean body mass-oriented program with ample servings of protein and such. More worried about dropping overall weight than being 220 with 5% bodyfat.

[bodhitree]

Good book on Plyos "Warrior Speed"
I forget the authors name

[ewallace]

I got bad diarrhea goin for anything more than .5g of protein per pound of bodyweight
I'd recommend the T-Dawg diet, EAS Simply Whey, and some Imodium AD. :)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect

It's a funny thing about swimming. Some studies have shown that excessive time in the water premote a greater degree of fat storage due to the body trying in insulate itself. It could be why you don't see many ripped swimmers. I swim every week myself, and I've noticed an increased difficulty getting as shredded as I used to be. Could be me getting older though. :)


I've heard that, too. How much do you swim?

IronFist

[Ford Prefect]

It really depends on the week and how early I wake up. I'll always do at least one 3/4 - 1 mile session per week, but if I have the time, I'll also do sessions of hypoxic swim sprints and regular sprints too. Nothing gets me puffing like 200m freestyle sprints.

[NPMantis]

Hi,

I didn't see any website addresses posted so here's a few good ones to try :

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/PowerExercises.html
http://turtlepress.com/wsa.html
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/plyometricexercises.html

Hope these help mate!

[Oso]

ttt

[Ford Prefect]

Just re-read my example. It should be "NOVICE" Athlete A & B and not just Athlete A&B. ;)

[Oso]

Here is a plyometric drill I developed for the students I took to their first tourney early this year.

I used a simple interval schedule of 1 minute work and 1 minute rest to copy the round times and rest times. It was just continuous light contact but I was going to be sure that, if nothing else, my students would be in better shape than their competition.

1 - Jumping Jacks

2 - Pushups

3 - Crunches

4 - Leg Lifts

5 - Full Sit Ups

6 - Jumping back and forth across a line

7 - Jumping side to side across a line

8 - Jumping clockwise in a square pattern

9 - Jumping CCW in a square pattern

10 - Zig Zag movement on a sqare pattern, CW

11 - Zig Zag movement on a square pattern, CCW

At this point, the strict minute of work, minute of rest stopped.
The rest of the workout below was done in a room that is 45' long and 25' wide. We would stick to the outside of the room and make one lap of each. So, about 140' of distance for each w/ a one minute rest between laps.

12 - Forward hopping around the room, in a horse

13 - Backward hopping around the room, in a horse

14 - FWD Hopping, Narrow feet to wide feet (horse)

15 - BWD Hopping, Narrow feet to wide feet (horse)

16 - FWD Hopping, Left Leg

17 - BWD Hopping, Left Leg

18 - FWD Hopping, Rt leg

19 - BWD Hopping, Rt leg

don't know how scientific it is but they got in shape.

[norther practitioner]

don't know how scientific it is but they got in shape.


:D Working out will do that too ya.:p

[Oso]

:p

well, yea...but I was mainly just saying that I pretty much pulled that workout out of my ass.

plausible deniability and all that....;)

[Ming Yue]

that workout did wonders for me, regardless of where it came from.

we're still doing it, although shortened, once a week.