Mantis in light of MMA

[Joe Mantis]

Hey everyone,
I have tons of questions and thoughts so please enter the discussion and give me your thoughts.

1. I just finished reading Renzo Gracie's book: Mastering Jujitsu.
He talks about 3 levels of a fight, Which got me thinking....
One thing that I noticed is that the MMA sports train very realistically. They are hands on, as is many throwing arts.
It also seems that proficiency (which can be realative) is obtained more quickly in MMA than many "traditional" MA's.
Why?

2. Is mantis designed to fight primarily another striker?
What are some of the responses in Mantis to be used against a wrestler who likes to shoot for a takedown, or even a BJJ person who will put their entire weight on you to get you to the ground.

3. In my limited Mantis experience I would venture to say that Mantis is concerned with keeping opponents in a striking/standup type fight.

Please give me some insights: Thanks!!!!!

[Mr.Binx]

Actually, there is an entire section in most northern mantis lines that I have seen which are specifically geared towards ground-fighting and grappling. I know of a few anti-bjj techniques that a few senior students have shown me, but it will be a longways down the road before I am likely to learn many of them myself. Also, a huge majority of our technique progressions end with the opponent on the ground and/or in a lock/break of somesort. Tanlang is mainly geared towards fighting someone who knows how to fight proficiently. It doesn't have the feel of self-defense or sport. It's kind of an all-in-one art. I am really fond of the many limb-breaks, eye-gouges, and temple strikes I have learned thus far. The main drawback of tanglang is the extensive amount of time and patience involved in learning it. A BJJ student could take a couple of classes and go into a fight. In tanglang, it could be 6 months to a year before you're in a similar position. Many inviduals would not be willing to put 15+ years into a single art. Most of us are too discursively minded to stick to something for that long. So, in retrospect, you're actually going to be pretty hard-pressed to find as many heavily-proficient tanglang practicioners when compared to the BJJ community in the western world. They're out there though, you've just got to dig. ;)

Edit: It's funny that you brough up this question because on a similar note, we have a student at our school who is going to attend classes in both qixing tanglang and brazilian jujitsu. I would definately not suggest cross-trainging two arts at the same time to anyone as it will often impair your learning of both arts rather than help either, but I wish him the best of luck in the endeavor regardless. I definately plan on sparring him with my tanglang vs. his bjj if he sticks with it. It's a tough art in a one-on-one situation and I won't be able to use any of the nastier tanglang techniques... so it will definately be a challenge. Never pass up a good oportunity when it presents itself!

[mantis108]

First off, I don't represent any particular school of thoughts in the greater mantis community. I don't speak on behalf of anyone or style but myself. So my opinion is just that - my own.

<<<1. I just finished reading Renzo Gracie's book: Mastering Jujitsu.
He talks about 3 levels of a fight, Which got me thinking....
One thing that I noticed is that the MMA sports train very realistically. They are hands on, as is many throwing arts.
It also seems that proficiency (which can be realative) is obtained more quickly in MMA than many "traditional" MA's.
Why?>>>

I have said it once and it will say this again. Mantis training CAN AND SHOULD be hands on; furthermore, it should be focusing on the basics just as other the MMA sports types do. That's right, you heard me right it is the BASICS that are being neglected in the current state of teachings in many PM schools. Why? Because everyone tends to think or even sold on the idea that the "secrets" or the goods are in the advanced super duper form(s). Most people think the forms are the magic pills. Guess what? It is the blue pill not the red pill. You don't wake up seeing the reality with the blue pill. You got the high though if that is any consolation.

Does this means the traditional training, program wise, bad? Personally, it is not bad at all. In fact, traditional training programs have a lot of wisdom to offer. It is up to the teachers to give it a bit of refreshing approach that will speak to the newer generation students. I think 7 Stars 14 roads can easily be what you need in the ring or octagon providing it is taught and trained through real workable sport competition knowledge. ;) Same holds truth with Qishou (7 hands) which is another entry level form for mantis. Having said that many of the basic drills or San Shou in mantis are pretty effective and efficient for martial arts and/or martial sports IMHO. It is just the training protocol that is determined by the teacher's orientation. Is it arts, is it sports or it is something beyond those? What's really the problem? It is just that many people never grow out of the shawdow of tradition [re: their teacher's teaching]. You will have to be an independent thinker to achieve that. It is a daunting task and a tough road to travel.

<<<2. Is mantis designed to fight primarily another striker?
What are some of the responses in Mantis to be used against a wrestler who likes to shoot for a takedown, or even a BJJ person who will put their entire weight on you to get you to the ground.>>>

No, not really. Even Bengbu has techniques for close range perhaps even ground range. Again it is the teaching or who is teaching. It is the training rather than the learning that makes the difference. I am running short on time (lunch). I will have to come back to this point later if you are still interested.

<<<3. In my limited Mantis experience I would venture to say that Mantis is concerned with keeping opponents in a striking/standup type fight.>>>

Again it is all depended on the teaching and the students attributes.

Regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

1. Why is fighting ability attained faster in MMA than in TMA?
Primary goal of MMA training is winning fights.
IN TMA this is not always the case.

If you want to just win fights then you have to go fight.
-train in schools that teach winning fights with rules that appeal to you.
-emphasize those aspects of your training that you feel will help you win fights.
-get partners from other schools to mix it up with.

2. Is PM designed for fighting strikers?
I think that is a personal aspect of how you train.
There is enough diffrent material that you can emphasize it to suit the way want to fight.

- I'm tall and skinny so I emphasize strikes
-Some of my squat students who are more broad empasize more takedowns
-I went to see a student of Wei Hsiaotang of Babu.
He had picked out all the takedown moves and used them almost exclusively.
Just different takedowns.

3. PM wants to keep people up for striking...
I disagree with this point.
PM is too broad an art to say this.
Though this is somewhat true for me personally.

Your Shrye, Luan Hsingfu, was one of Shr Zhengzhong's most important masters.
He knew very few forms.
When a student came to class as a beginner all excited about training, GM Luan would show him the horse stance.
That was the WHOLE class.
Very few people ever learned more than a horse stance because every time they came to class it was just that stance.

Master Shr went to study with him.
Since Master Shr at the time was already a Shrfu himself, so GM Luan told him he had to come with a partner.

The whole point was that it was 2 man stuff.
Later one of my very old shrhsiung's saw him do some PM.
He said it was some of the worst looking PM he had ever seen.

GM Luan had grown up in tough times in Shandong and had no understanding of the concept of making forms "look" powerful.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan,

Are you saying that "winning fights" as opposed to perfecting a technique for self-defense? Please elaborate, I still didn't get it.
Also, mantis is adopted to one's particular body and preference?

INteresting point about Luan Hsingfu not knowing many forms. MMA doesn't claim to know a "1000" techniques, they seem to "perfect" a small number well.
Furthermore, the older generation of CMA teachers in America didn't seem to have a wide curriculum of forms. In one system when i began training there was only 10 forms to "black Belt."

All:
I agree that playing by the rules is one thing, ie: san shou, kickboxing, K-1 etc.... What about the early UFC's where it seemed that it was more style vs style?

Another thought is that MMA is really just BASICS. Basics of punching, basics of takedowns, basics of ground work.

I think that western Boxing is basic handwork because there is not grapping, and the blocking is not designed to create an opening for striking.
Comments please.....

Thanks for the input.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
MMA doesn't claim to know a "1000" techniques, they seem to "perfect" a small number well...
I know there will be some people on this forum who disagree, but I think one could "extract" techniques from 7*PM and have an effective arsenal of strikes.

In fact, I've seen UFC fights ended by the combatant throwing what appeared to be techniques in PM forms. I've seen someone knocked-out in a UFC fight from a kick that I've seen in the form Chop Chui (Spear Hand). Also, I've seen numerous folks go "nite-nite" after getting hit with what looked like a Tung Choi (PM Reverse Punch).

Professional fighters do alot of conditioning. They train like they're about to have a fight. Well, they are. And when they say they have a match in 3 months, they eat, sleep, and s#!t training. When they get into that ring, it isn't like they're in that shape all the time. They don't train with that intensity all the time. The same goes for boxers, swimmers, football players, and body-builders. They train with a different intensity when they have a competition event coming up.

Of course, this is my own opinion.

[Tainan Mantis]

mantisben,
good points!

JM,
In TMA many people train as a hobby for fun or health.
Training to really fight is usually neither.

I quit Judo because I could foresee a major injury coming my way.
I noticed that I had lost so much shoulder mobility I could no longer do double saber.
I don't think that is good for the shoulder.
It took me several months to get it back. And a year for my knee to stop acting up.
I also saw some nasty injuries at the club.
Those guys were going very hard for tourny prep.

In Taiwan they must win their fight to move up a belt rank and they have very few chances to participate in those type of large tourny's so the pressure was on.

They had this odd white belt culture.
In the club, if he hadn't gotten a black belt they would rather wear white than the color they had already earned.
Something like...if it ain't black it ain't worth wearing.


In TMA you can train at a nice pace for most your entire life.
But to be good you must have spent a certain period of time doing hard training.
That will give some important revelations that don't come at the comfy level of training.

I visited master Luan when he was in his late 80's.
He could get up and do chin na with shrfu.

Another one of my shrye's did some sparring with me when he was 92.
Of course I wasn't going to try and knock his block off, but I could barely defend his strikes which were all delivered full force.

It was so simple, just groin and face shots over and over.

Li Hongjie, when he was 70, laughed at me as I threw full power punches to his gut(it was embarrising).
It was like hitting a rubber tire.

Those guys were all happy and healthy.

TMA also has other aspects that a MMA wouldn't consider.
-making the forms look good is important to some people.
-weapons forms also have many different aspects of training.
-Some sort of mental conditioning can easily be achieved without having to prove or test your skill against others.


About winning and self-defense; there isn't much distinction between the two in my mind.

[Joe Mantis]

TM

1. I definately see the other benefits of TMA and fully enjoy that aspect. I'm just peeved that there is a perception that TMA "aren't effective", or "out dated" and all that blah blah blah and hoopla of the new MMA craze. I know that many teacher of the older generation (you've met a lot more than I) have great skill. Why isn't that being cultivated in more TMA?

But you answered my question:
But to be good you must have spent time in hard training

[HuangKaiVun]

The reason why "MMA" training in traditional kung fu isn't emphasized is because rarely are the traditional arts tested in the real-life laboratory of street fighting.

For example, how many people have actually tried to land a mantis strike to the eyes in a REAL fight? Against a resisting opponent - or more than one of them? And actually CONNECTED to the point where legitimate damage was done?

Doubtless there are those of you out there that have, and I'd love to hear from you.

Without the practical experience of trying a move out against a person(s), one can't figure out if it really works or not. The good traditional kung fu schools feature some sort of controlled practice against resisting opponents that emphasizes both reflex and damaging power.

I am not condemning the mantis style or any traditional style in general, especially since I AM a traditional style kung fu fighter and sifu who teaches the combat arts for reality scenarios.

[mantisben]

The reason why "MMA" training in traditional kung fu isn't emphasized is because rarely are the traditional arts tested in the real-life laboratory of street fighting.

How would you KNOW if traditional arts are rarely tested in street fighting? How would you know if there was a street fight in Hong-Kong between 2 excellent traditional martial artists in a bar, club, or alley? Or in Tulsa, Oklahoma for that matter?

For example, how many people have actually tried to land a mantis strike to the eyes in a REAL fight? Against a resisting opponent - or more than one of them? And actually CONNECTED to the point where legitimate damage was done?

Doubtless there are those of you out there that have, and I'd love to hear from you...

I've never tried to gouge someones eye (yet). However, I remember the first kung-fu-related punch I ever threw. It was a right lunge-punch (from 7*PM Bung Bo, first road). It landed right under the guy's left-eye. His head snapped back, and his eyes rolled up into his head. After landing this punch in real combat, no one could tell me that the lunge-punch is not effective. This was AFTER he hit me with the most effective hook-punch I had been hit with since that fight. After that, it was just a regular slug-fest. This wasn't my first street fight though.

Since that fight and getting hit by that hook-punch, my training changed, and so did how I applied what technique. I've been hit many times since that fight, and have served my share of knuckle sandwiches. I don't think any of them were professional fighters, but they weren't push-overs either.

Praying Mantis has worked for me, in the street. I've never competed in a tournament, so I don't know how it would work in that environment. Still, as I get older, I'm not as in a rush to throw hands as I used to be. I still like to spar, though. But not too rough...:)

Respectfully,

MantisBen

[BeiTangLang]

You know, I hear the "poke in the eye" thing so much it makes me sick. If you can't figure out at least 5-10 other hit combo's from the mantis you have learned, just give them your wallet or run away.....& start training a little smarter for next time!!

[HuangKaiVun]

Good post, mantisben.

The reason I stated what I did about ineffectiveness is because a lot of those traditional arts (not Mantis specifically) don't train for realistic scenarios.

You are probably the FIRST person who I've heard of using Mantis effectively in a street situation. To that, I applaud you. But like BeiTangLang said, that eye gouge thing has been so overemphasized that it's beyond ridiculous. That's the way I was taught, and that's the way I've seen others teaching it.

As far as effectiveness goes, I've met people who've fought effectively using traditional Chinese kung fu and people who've got stomped using kung fu. It's all in the training, and that's on an individual sifu level.

By the way, my students and I are not punchers. That is not to say that your punch was ineffective (was VERY effective) - it's just to say that we have a different approach to combat than you do. Our real fights have almost never been slugfests.

Oh yeah. We don't train combos either because people in real life BLOCK.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

HuangKaiVun

Oh yeah. We don't train combos either because people in real life BLOCK.
You might want to take another look at combos with an eye towards breaking through your opponents defenses or forcing him into a position where you have the advantage. That's how I view combos. A Gwa Choy isn't just a backfist to the face. It can also be used to break down the defense or force opponent to block high leaving legs and midsection open for the following moves in the combo.

I've been in a few real fights and single attacks just don't cut it unless you have a fast knockout punch (I don't). Personally I've had the most success with tearing into them with multiple attacks. Sharpshooting works with untrained opponents but, like you said, if they can block you need a barrage to get something through. That's where combos come in.

BTW, I'm very much a stand up fighter and I like elbows a lot more since using them for real (moves from 18 Elbows for you WL folks). I'm getting too old to try to out muscle the other guy so I prefer not to slug it out. I'm more into "jacking the joints" these days.

[HuangKaiVun]

That's cool, Hua Lin Laoshi.

You are doing the PROPER usage of Mantis, I see. Very good - we do stuff like that too but don't have prearranged combinations.

It would be neat to see what you would do against a grappler like myself who knows some of the post-entry moves that you might pull.

That would be interesting.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
3. In my limited Mantis experience I would venture to say that Mantis is concerned with keeping opponents in a striking/standup type fight.
Take a look through your various mantis forms. You will see that mantis likes to close in fast with strikes and finish off with a takedown where the opponent hits the ground hard. Take a look at throws such as dip jang, yiu jom, dun pak, or pok tui and the setups leading into them.

In addition, you maintain control of at least one of your opponent's limbs during the takedown. If necessary, you can transition to a lock or break on that limb. Or you could go for "ground and pound".

I have limited experience with BJJ. I can say that in mantis, I have not trained groundwork relating to transitions beween the various mounts, guards, chokes, and submissions.

N.

[Yung Apprentice]

So, for those who's schools actually train in the groundwork of PM, does it teach, guards, submissions, chokes, and groundwork?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by -N-
...groundwork relating to transitions beween the various mounts, guards, chokes, and submissions.

N.
This is where the grapplers become very dangerous to an opponent that isn't familiar with these techniques! Maybe the PM system has a few of these techniques, but I don't know of any PM system or style that has the width and depth of the "various mounts, guards, chokes, and submissions" (as you soo descriptively put it) of a grappling-based fighting style.

In watching UFC matches, the strikers will try to hit the grappler when he is trying to shoot in, and avoid grappling with shifty footwork. Still, from what I've observed in UFC fighting, the more dangerous fighters are strikers that know how to grapple (Chuck Liddell, Robbie Lawler, BJ Penn), and do alot of conditioning (bag-work, strength training, etc.).

In my opinion, knowing how to grapple is an indispensible "power-tool" in every fighter's arsenal. There are still excellent fighters who don't see the need for grappling skills (Oscar De La Hoya, Roy Jones, Jr., etc.).

Generally speaking, - I want to empasize the word GENERAL - striking is faster than grappling.

Think of the best, fastest, most successful, most dangerous, most conditioned grapppler you can think of, and I'm certain he could throw an effective left or right-cross FASTER than he could apply his quickest lock, takedown, or submission.

[grifter721]

Generally speaking, - I want to empasize the word GENERAL - striking is faster than grappling.

I am shocked I am actually reading this on this board, but heck it is so true. Grappling is effective as long as the striker is ineffective. Teh way that I see it is that any art that says "I will take a punch in order to have my way with you" is wrong! For the simple reason : Underestimation. Once anyone underestimates one opponent they have already lost. One punch/kick whatever can end a fight.
I am not saying to disregard grappling, it is effective, but I beleive only so much of it. Why get in close when you can strike and ko? why hug, when you can kick? why prolong when you can shorten?

Thats my two cents!

Oh yeah Bj Pen is not primarilly a striker though...he trains primarily in BJJ, (thats what his bio before a fight says) Lawler has a heck of a lot of ko power but is really wild dont you think?

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantisben

This is where the grapplers become very dangerous to an opponent that isn't familiar with these techniques!
Well, I wouldn't want to get tangled up in his ground game. I'd have to rely on taking him down hard, and hopefully breaking an elbow or knee while doing so. Preferably one of his ;)

N.

[HuangKaiVun]

I have several students that literally can take punch after punch and kick after kick, particularly those who have trained some sort of Iron Body.

Couple that with their knowledge of what a Mantis fighter can do and they'll move quick in for the submission or kill.

Like it or not, a hardened fighter in any style will probably stop 99% of your strikes no matter how strong or quick or skilled you are. This is especially true with good kung fu fighters who know exactly what kind of strikes a Mantis fighter can pull.

Try striking (without a weapon) a 5'11" 300 lb weightlifted Native American fighter who has trained in Pankration, Muay Thai, Pankration, and traditional kung fu (the grappling sort that I teach him).

He'll LAUGH at you, then he'll crush you.

[-N-]

Why get in close when you can strike and ko? why hug, when you can kick? why prolong when you can shorten?


Mantis does have a variety of ranges and methods to choose from. Some people may prefer to focus on medium and long range striking. I personally don't want to rely on a one strike knockout.

One of many nice things about mantis footwork is its explosive agility in closing the gap. The fast footwork combined with mantis hands can overwhelm or overrun the opponent. You can often pass through striking range and end up in body to body contact range. You can hit with elbows on the way in. Once you are in contact, you can rely on short force of shoulder and hip strikes. At that close range, the position, momentum, and rotation of your center of mass relative to that of your opponent's becomes important for throwing. So it's useful to be comfortable at the close ranges so you can have followups to the initial engagement. If I have the advantage, my preference is to keep attacking until I know it's safe to stop.

When attacking and setting up to throw, the deeper in or closer you are to your opponent, the more devastating will be the throw. As you close in, the throws become more difficult to escape. In the example of 7 star stance or mountain climbing stance, the leg/fulcrum becomes closer to the opponent's center of mass, so your overturning force has greater effect.

When we attack, it is not just with our hands. We attack with our footwork, our stance, our center, and our spirit all in combination. The feeling is pure intensity of closing in tight with every part of our spirit and motion without reserve - no holding back for sake of staying at punching range.

In the case you end up on the receiving end of such an attack, you will need to be able to work at this close range as well. You don't want to become overwhelmed, tangled up, and falling backwards over yourself. It is useful to be able to maintain your changeablity at the closer ranges. If you can stay close while pivoting and slipping an attack, you can for example, use a shoulder strike to break the opponent's elbow. If the opponent steps in close and you have leg to leg contact, you can use that to bounce and break his foundation and take him down.

N.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I have several students that literally can take punch after punch and kick after kick, particularly those who have trained some sort of Iron Body...

Like it or not, a hardened fighter in any style will probably stop 99% of your strikes no matter how strong or quick or skilled you are...
Try striking (without a weapon) a 5'11" 300 lb weightlifted Native American fighter who has trained in Pankration, Muay Thai, Pankration, and traditional kung fu (the grappling sort that I teach him).

He'll LAUGH at you, then he'll crush you.

You're right! I'd get crushed! But if I hit as hard as Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, or Roy Jones, Jr., he'd be swallowing his teeth.

[-N-]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
He'll LAUGH at you, then he'll crush you.

Agreed.

N.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by grifter721

Oh yeah Bj Pen is not primarilly a striker though...he trains primarily in BJJ, (thats what his bio before a fight says) Lawler has a heck of a lot of ko power but is really wild dont you think?
I've only seen BJ Penn fight twice. Once against Caol Uno, and he won this fight in 11 seconds by hooking the back of Uno's neck with his left hand, and driving 4 or 5 straight vertical fists into his face before the referee stopped the fight. It was brutal. The other fight - I can't recall the fighters name - went the distance and he won, but he appeared to be going for the knockout, and not the submission. The other fighter was trying to grapple, but everytime he got in close, he got struck.

Again, I've only seen BJ fight twice. So you may be right.

As for Mr. Lawler, I've only seen him fight once. I don't remember his opponent, but I think it was Lawler's 2nd UFC fight. Although some of the swings looked wild, he was landing right on the button. Effectively. The opponent hit the ground, Robbie jumped on him and drilled 2 (only 2) punches into the guy's face, and I thought he was going to kill him. Wild or not, when he lands, its with lethal force.

[Mr.Binx]

I fear this thread is slowly degenerating into an MMA sports dialogue and leaving the bounds of tanglang... let me see if I can't pull it back on track a bit... I think Tainan made some very good points in response to the questions that were posed by Joe Mantis. Especially in the fact that tanglang is a very broad art. Not only does it contain unarmed combat involving strikes, throws, grappling, breaks, trapping, locks, disarms, etc... but you are also picking up the knowledge of how to utilize a rather large selection of weapon types (many of which can be adapted to objects within your reach as you read this). If a weapon is available that is more effective than you're empty-hand then you should be using it. If your opponent is armed and you are not, then you must find away to use the opponent's weapon against them or nullify the weapon altogether. Aside from the broad spectrum of situations you can tailor the art to, the subversive and often downright sneaky melee tactics and movement learned are some of the strongest (and one of my favorite) lessons that tanglang has to offer. One should be ever mindful that tanglang wasn't made for sport. Tanglang was supposedly created for a revolt against a corrupt government... created for war. Real-life, bloody combat against other warriors who knew how to fight and how to kill. The art still survives today. That's heavy stuff.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mr Binx,
Thanks for getting us on topic.
I think Huang Kaivun made an interesting point that we can tie Joe's topic in with.

For his 300 pound student to fight me would be like me fighting maybe a kid or adolescent who is talented at fighting, but weighs 100 pounds.

Point is, although it is tough to beat a talented fighter when he just has a small weight strength advantage.
An advantage of over 100 pounds could be mighty deadly.

But, PM as all TMA have great equilizers for these kinds of problems.
That is in the form of weapons.

True story about Li Kunshan's students.

The military came to Taiwan from China in 1949.
This includes my Shrye, Li Hongjie, and his shrfu Li Kunshan.

JM, Li Hongjie is the old master you met in Tainan/Taichong.

Some of the soldiers came to Taiwan in the early 50's. From Korea if I am not mistaken.

On of Li Kunshan's students who had come to Taiwan in the early 50's and had studied with him back on the mainland didn't seem to like Li Hongjie very much and so challenged him to a fight.

Li Hongjie, had a talk with his shrfu to get some prefight pointers.

Li Kunshan told my shrye Li Hongjie that he could not win the fight in empty hand combat.

So Li Hongjie used a short stick and won the fight.
I am sorry to say I don't know if his challenger had a stick. It wouldn't be unusual if he didn't though.
At the time, my greatest concern was to know what technique won the fight.

A variation of this technique applied as a drill was posted on my mpeg thread called Tiger Tail Whip.

[Yung Apprentice]

Try striking (without a weapon) a 5'11" 300 lb weightlifted Native American fighter who has trained in Pankration, Muay Thai, Pankration, and traditional kung fu (the grappling sort that I teach him).

No thanks, I like my life. I would only do that with a baseball bat, and even then I would think twice. Maybe if he allowed me one hit, I could try a throat shot or an eye shot, and then run like hell. A groin shot would just **** him off more.


He'll LAUGH at you, then he'll crush you.

I think he would do that with pretty much anyone. Including a hardened fighter.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Discussions like this always seem to go to extremes and I'd like to add my view of reality and training.

I don't train to be the best in the world. I don't expect to be fighting a Tito Ortiz or a Mike Tyson in my lifetime. I train to be the best that I can be and to deal with real life street situations. What are your chances of getting mugged by a 300 pound rock hard iron body trained fighter?

How many highly trained Sifus or Masters hit the skids and resort to criminal activities like robbery, carjacking or home invasions? I don't have a problem admitting I can be beat by a younger, stronger, larger, or more skilled opponent who trains much more than I do. That doesn't mean I won't give him as much fight as I can dish out.

So basically what we see is what's been said many times before. It's the fighter, not the style. How about a 300 pound iron body Mantis practitioner against an average size MMA fighter? Granted Noguero did beat Bob Sapp but Sapp didn't have the training to finish the fight before getting winded.

So PM is effective against all styles but not neccesarily against all opponents. The best fighters figure out a way to beat their opponent by adapting, using their brains and being flexible in their fight strategy.

I'll continue to increase my skill and knowledge but for my own satisfaction, not because I feel the need to outdo the rest of the world.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I'll continue to increase my skill and knowledge but for my own satisfaction, not because I feel the need to outdo the rest of the world.

Sounds like the essence of good kung fu in the broadest sense.

N.

[mantisben]

I don't have a problem admitting I can be beat by a younger, stronger, larger, or more skilled opponent who trains much more than I do...

Me neither. In fact, I don't have a problem admitting I can be beaten by an older, weaker, smaller, and/or less skilled opponent who trains much less than I do... I'll tell anyone almost anything if I think it will prevent us coming to fist-cuffs...

If someone tells me they could beat me silly, and I thought by agreeing with them they wouldn't hit me, I'd say "You sure could.". Even if I didn't believe it to be true. Actually, I've done this on a couple of occasions. The only time I'll fight to defend myself is if there is nothing I could say or do to get out of the fight, and they won't let me walk away.

So PM is effective against all styles but not neccesarily against all opponents.

I believe some PM techniques can be effective against ALL opponents. It is the PM PRACTICIONER that may not be effective against all opponents. For example, I throw a Tung Choi (Reverse Punch) and land right on the chin of Mike Tyson. He laughs, and then eats me. It wasn't because Tung Choi isn't an effective technique, it was because I wasn't effective. Along comes the 300 lb. Native American and hits Mike Tyson square on the chin (same place I hit him). Mr. Tyson will probably be taking a long nap after his meal. Same technique - Tung Choi - but different level of effectiveness ONLY because the practicioner (300 lb. Native American) had the attribute required (power) to make the technique successful.

Lethal and destructive power isn't limited to size and weight. Bruce Lee - 5'7" at 140 lbs. - had the 1-inch punch. If he hit Mike on the chin with a Tung Choi, he might get the same results as the 300 lb. Native American because he had the ATTRIBUTE (power) required to make the technique successful.

PM has many training methods of developing that 1-inch type of power, and I don't know any of them.

My apologies for to ALL on this thread for posting stuff that might've been off topic. And I'll try not to go to extremes either. My apologies to all...


Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I'll continue to increase my skill and knowledge but for my own satisfaction, not because I feel the need to outdo the rest of the world.

What a great sentence!!! Poetic!!! Eloquent!!! I'm Feelin' it!!! You got Kung-Fu in ya knuckles AND in ya Spirit Hua Lin Laoshi!!!!:D

[chen zhen]

That's the spirit.:cool:

[Ren Blade]

Joel Sutton, an 8 Step Praying Mantis stylist fought in UFC 6 and won. But I'm not sure if he used, if any, Praying Mantis in the fight. I saw a clip of it and all I saw was him sitting on top of the guy pounding his fist into their head. I would've like to seen the whole fight. But Joel was in the alternate fights which they don't really show on Pay Per View as part of the show.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis

It also seems that proficiency (which can be realative) is obtained more quickly in MMA than many "traditional" MA's.
Why? MMA practitioners spend no time doing forms. They drill only the techniques that they will use. They practice all their techniques against an opponent or against some type of training apparatus like a heavy bag, thus gaining the timing, sense of distance, and kinesthenic awareness that is mandatory for successful excecution in real-time situations. They spar at almost every workout session for anwhere from 30 to 90 minutes.

[Joe Mantis]

Thanks Knifefighter.

Maybe that's the key....less forms and more "live action."

It seems that masters of old practiced forms when they had no one to work out with.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
Thanks Knifefighter.

Maybe that's the key....less forms and more "live action."

It seems that masters of old practiced forms when they had no one to work out with.

I believe one of the reasons forms were used was to preserve the techniques of the system. Kind of like a library of the different techniques. There are other reasons to practice forms, but I'll leave the explanation to one of the more knowledgable people on this forum.

How about soldiers in the old days of China? I believe they practiced forms, and they must've had other soldiers to practice with. Many styles of Kung-Fu have passed the test of effectiveness on the battlefield of WAR and the numerous "No-Holds-Barred" tournaments that were frequent in the old days of China. Yeah, China. The "womb" that gave birth to all superior fighting arts..:D

No-Holds-Barred matches DID NOT start in the 20th Century.

Kung Fu has undergone hundreds, of years of trial-and-error.

There are excellent fighters that believe practicing forms are not helpful towards combat-effectiveness. I'll bet Pesos-to-Peanuts those fighters have never trained correctly, or consistently in forms, either.

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantisben
I believe one of the reasons forms were used was to preserve the techniques of the system. Kind of like a library of the different techniques.

That's exactly how I see it. I think in the old days, our kung fu ancestors were not necessarily literate, and so they documented their knowledge in forms. Even if they could write pages and pages describing a motion or an idea, it's easier to just show someone and say, "Do like this."

My teacher would teach us a form, but the main focus was on extracting the techniques and drilling them on one's own, then drilling with a partner, then practicing them in sparring.

A secondary use of forms is to entertain others in performance. I'm not too interested in entertaining my opponents :)

N.

[-N-]

Not mantis, but check this out for a chinese take on mixed martial arts from a traditional foundation. My teacher sent one of my sihing to learn from him when he had to relocate.

http://www.jiangschool.com/jiang.htm

This guy is the real deal.

N.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

mantisben
"I believe some PM techniques can be effective against ALL opponents. It is the PM PRACTICIONER that may not be effective against all opponents."
Much more accurate than my comments. I agree.

Knifefighter
"MMA practitioners spend no time doing forms. They drill only the techniques that they will use."
You make it sound like forms have useless moves in them. Why would anyone practice forms that consisted of moves they will never use? I don't believe useless moves could have survived for generations in the forms.

[TheWarriorHeart]

Hello everyone, first I would like to say I really like PM it is an awesome and brutal style. My instructors father trained in it starting at a very young age in the military from another military man and he ended up creating his own style called "praying mantis freestyle" where he basically tweaked several things to make them more practical for streetfighting in his mind. Also he is the head of security at the bar I bounce at and this man is 50 yrs old, I have seen him lay out guys left and right. It is actually quite funny.

Also I would like everyone to remember UFC 1 where a man named Kieth Hackney I believe, a PM practitioner turned kenpo beat a 600 pd sumo wrestler with a palm strike to the bridge of the nose. Now that is some awesome stuff! So I guess what I'm trying to say is anything is possible and especially if you train hard enough you can achieve some amazing things. You are a product of your training.......and that is for any and all styles!

Oh yes, also...regardging forms...similar to what someone already said. Forms are like your encyclopedia for your techniques...it is not and will never be a replacement for actual sparring or combat simulations...but knowing the forms and the applications then applying them in your drills and sparring is the key. I love forms for one to preserve the art and it is like a notebook in my head of techniques. But anyone who thinks they can do only forms and be a good fighter has a painful reality coming to them when they get in a fight.

[Merryprankster]

600 pd sumo wrestler with a palm strike to the bridge of the nose.

No offense, but have you SEEN the guy he knocked out? :D Manny Yarborough is a 600 lbs bag of fat, vice the far more athletic real sumo wrestlers in Japan. Well, discounting Musashimaru and Akebono (who both recently retired).

[Ren Blade]

You take each drill you train with a resisting opponent, link them all together, do them solo as if you did have an opponent in front of you, and you'll have a form.

That's what forms are. They link techniques together into a sequence. Form teach transitions from technique to technique and footwork to footwork.

You train your forms and then you should also taking one technique out of a form and work on them with a resisting opponent in your workout. After making that technique work, you choose another technique out of your form and work on them against a resistant classmate to make them work. After achieving a few techniques that work against someone resisting, then you spar with what you can make work.

Forms is just a training tool and only part of a training. Complete training is involves forms, partner drills to make those techniques come to life, bag/focus mitt work and sparring. The feel of someone resisting your techniques and hitting the bag with the techniques of your forms, make your forms more alive rather than a dance.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by mantisben
Many styles of Kung-Fu have passed the test of effectiveness on the battlefield of WAR... Empty-handed fighting has never been effectively practiced in war. Any army that has ever tried this was quickly decimated by it's opposition that was using weapons.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Empty-handed fighting has never been effectively practiced in war. Any army that has ever tried this was quickly decimated by it's opposition that was using weapons.
Are you implying that soldiers don't train in unarmed combat? Even with todays modern weaponry, soldiers train in unarmed combat.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by mantisben

Are you implying that soldiers don't train in unarmed combat? Even with todays modern weaponry, soldiers train in unarmed combat. Soldiers spend some time training in unarmed combat. Unarmed training is and always has been somewhat of an aferthought. The reason is that armed combat is, and always has been, a much deadlier way to fight a war. The number of soldiers who have actually used unarmed combat against an opposing army is miniscule. The number of those who have done it and survived is even more miniscule.

[Crushing Step]

"No-Holds-Barred matches DID NOT start in the 20th Century."

Great point. Many martial arts styles, and yes forms, were creted by old school nhb fighters. For example the Japanese swordsman Musashi, the founder of aikido Ueshiba, and of course the legends credited to Wang Lang.

For my 2 cents... I was cross training with some mma people a few years back. One of them gave me his instructors video set, it happened to be the "seal team" series on panther, by Frank Cucci. Now besided the silliness of him teaching while wearing combat boots and camo pants, this series is nice. He teaches a few punches and kicks, and makes it easy to understand and remember.

How does this apply to mantis? Like what was said before, you can take anything in our encyclopedia (forms) and drill them do deadly proficiency. In fact, I don't think there was anything necessarily "new" I learned from these tapes, or training with the mma guys, guys a different view on the same stuff.

Tonight I just visited a mma school. They taught the typical mix: muay Thai, JKD, bjj. You know what? Absolutely everything I saw in a one hour workout I recognized from the panther tapes. I have no doubt I could have endured their wourkout, and even held my own in sparring.

So in closing let me say this. Meet as many martial artists as you can, work out with each other, and learn. Do it so you can be flexable to different fighters, but don't stray too far from your foundation. Else you risk becoming the jack of all trades, master of none, right?

[TheWarriorHeart]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


No offense, but have you SEEN the guy he knocked out? :D Manny Yarborough is a 600 lbs bag of fat, vice the far more athletic real sumo wrestlers in Japan. Well, discounting Musashimaru and Akebono (who both recently retired).

prankster you must be one who favors groundfighting. It seems every time someone talks about being deadly at striking or even dominant with it you either,

A) Discredit them and berate them for lack of training

B) Try to make light of the situation as above...like it is somehow inferior to all the fights you seem to have been through

or
C) all of the above

I have respect for grounfighting and it definitely has its place.....among all the other aspects of combat fighting.....that is what you train for right? combat? Or is it just simply for a competition with rules? That is very different from a street fight. Where your main objective is saving your a$$.

[Yung Apprentice]

Uh-oh, thats going to open a can of worms.:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Actually TWH, I train for fun. I'm probably one of the few people on this board that will admit that. Oh sure, I've got some self-defense skills thrown in with that, but it's a by-product of my training. If I liked rock climbing, I'd do that instead. As it stands, I like combat sports. *shrug*

I wasn't suggesting that striking can't be dominant. If you really read that into what I was saying I don't know what to tell you.

What I was suggesting is that a nearly immobile 600 lbs fatass who gets tired lugging his enormous body 5 feet isn't much of an opponent. Keith Hackney, on the other hand, did quite well for an air conditioner repairman, and later got to punch Joe Son in the forbidden speed bag.

Truth be told, we've had very few world class strikers compete in MMA. There is better money elsewhere. On the other hand, wrestling is so ****ed boring to watch if you don't know what's going on, that it won't pay the bills. So there have been quite a few world-class grappler types in MMA.

Oddly enough, the world-class guys are.... world class... and have proven it with big wins over quality opponents, vice a guy who eats too many cheeseburgers at a sitting.

So, ya done assuming a bunch of stuff or do we have to go round with this? Here's my stance:

1. You have to know grappling and striking.
2. One isn't better than the other.
3. Full contact sparring is vital.
4. Multiple opponents is the dumbest excuse for not learning grappling ever--if you can't get up right you're going to get stomped. Why train to get up against a guy who doesn't know how to hold you down?
5. Eyegouges, biting and other fouls are not the answer and will get you mauled if that's your defense.

There.

But feel free to continue telling me what I think.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Soldiers spend some time training in unarmed combat. Unarmed training is and always has been somewhat of an aferthought.
Unarmed combat, an afterthought? Is this true for the history of the Chinese soldiers, before the invention of the gun? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

The reason is that armed combat is, and always has been, a much deadlier way to fight a war.
This is true. Two guys going at it with pipes, or broken bottles is going to be deadlier than if they went at it with the hands. No revelation here.

The number of soldiers who have actually used unarmed combat against an opposing army is miniscule. The number of those who have done it and survived is even more miniscule.
...Which is just saying your chances of winning in a combat situation are BETTER if you have a weapon, and your opponent does not. I have to agree with you here, also.

"Many styles of Kung-Fu have passed the test of effectiveness on the battlefield of WAR and the numerous No-Holds-Barred tournaments that were frequent in the old days of China.". This includes the many different WEAPONS of Kung-Fu.

[TheWarriorHeart]

If thats the case prankster then I do apologize for jumping to conclusions. I would tend to agree with all of your points except the very last.....about the eye gouging and such. Can you elaborate on that point? I'm not sure if I understand. Do you mean that when competing in a NHB type of competition, or on the street? I've never competed as of yet in a NHB competition but I've had many streetfights. Now I've never actually eye gouged someone..but I have hit someone in the throat....and that was all it took. No foulness

[Merryprankster]

Eye gouging, biting, throat shots, groin rips and that sort of thing are adjuncts to, not replacements for, appropriate grappling knowledge. Relying on them is low percentage. On somebody with an ounce of savvy, the best you'll do is create some space. On the other hand, you may just **** them off.

Kind of like your throat shot--it worked--but I think you'll agree that it's no substitute for knowing everything else in your system. Same here--an eyegouge doesn't replace appropriate movements and escapes when somebody is mounted on you, blasting your face into hamburger.

[TheWarriorHeart]

I would tend to agree. However I try to have the mindset where no technique is superior among all others and all have counters...and counters to those counters and so forth. I believe for streetfighting applications the throat shots, eye gouging and etc def. have their applications.....and equally so does having the adequate groundfighting skill. I truly believe in striving for excellence in all ranges of combat......a balanced fighter.

Also in my experience being a bouncer, most of the fights end very quickly and I personally have yet to be taken to the ground. Also keep in mind that in the street you probably won't square up like in a NHB competition both skilled fighters ready to pound each other into oblivion. There are several other factors to consider....environment, element of surprise etc. So far I have always had the first strike...which pretty much ends it for the attacker right then and there. Basically if I have felt threatened I won't even think twice but instead just reacted by blasting the attackers face or a takedown or both so far. But I definitely don't rely on that during sparring and always like to roll around on the ground...because I believe it is very important.

[Yung Apprentice]

So far I have always had the first strike...which pretty much ends it for the attacker


Since they hadn't attacked you yet. And you attacked them first. Wouldn't that make you the attacker? :confused:

[TheWarriorHeart]

Hmm, I suppose one could look at it that way if you want to look at it from a philosophical perspective. If someone swings their arm around at me trying to hit me, only I beat them to the punch...does that make their punch really a punch?

Lets not get into semantics, if you knew the kind of place I work at, where thugs, rednecks and bikers frequent then you would understand the need for my mentality when at work. If you take even a split second to think about if the guy you are trying to escort out is going to hit you who suddenly changes his movement from soft and away from you to direct and agressive, then you will probably land face first on the ground while his buddies try to jump in too.

I had to learn the hardway....2 years ago when I first started working there..I tried to jump in the middle of a fight and break it up.....I got a beer bottle right across my brow just about 2 inches above the eye. I've got a nice little scar to remind me of that now.

[Yung Apprentice]

Sorry, I was just assuming by that comment, that you would strike someone, before a problem escalated or something, and I was just thinking how that would be viewed in the eyes of the court. (since they tend to be hard on martial artists as it is)

By attacker you meant someone has tried to hit you, only didn't. When I thought you were saying an attacker, as an opponent, or an aggressor.Just a misinterpretation on my behalf.

[TheWarriorHeart]

No problem....and speaking of the courts. I had to go and testify for my boss this past winter for this very same situation. He decked this guy with a 1-2 punch because he came at him agressively and lifted his arm...after he was told to leave the premises 3 times. Now my boss is 50 some odd years old and the guy he hit was in his 20's. The guy tried to press charges....so I went and testified for my boss and the judge pretty much laughed in the younger guys face.

[Ren Blade]

That's funny.

As in regards to courts, I think it's different when you fight because of an occupation like a bouncer or bodyguard or some kind of defense service.

But fighting when it has nothing to do with your job, then the courts seem to get hard on martial artists.

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,...Mantis is the topic here remember? :-)
BTL

[bungda07]

Hope you had a great trip Beitanglang. "The sheriff's back in town".

V/r

Steve M.