xing yi / hsing i tense and relaxed animals?

[foolinthedeck]

hi, i'm not a xing yi practitioner.

from my reading - and intense interest in xing yi , i was under the impression that 'song' relaxation is of utmost importance in santi and in general in xingyi.

so i was wondering what difference in relaxation there is between the animals? is the bear tenser? or is my question justr based on a misunderstanding of animals? - to me bear looks tense but because its just attacking on instinct maybe it isnt?

[The Willow Sword]

It is not so much as to which is "tenser". you are relaxed when doing the form stepping and movements,HOWEVER,
in bung chuan(crushing fist) there is a tensing, if you will, of the strike then an immediate relaxation of the body after the punch.
it goes on those principles that when you strike you are relaxed, at the moment of impact you contract muscles and are tense,then immediately afterwards you relax again. this is in keeping with the chi striking in hsing-i.
there should be no tense movements at all really when doing the hsings. i mean there is some stop action involved in some of the movements but even then you need to be relaxed. just FYI Bear is the most relaxed of the animals anyway. bear moves graceful in the woods even though bear is a behemoth. when doing bear you feel heavy and you feel like you are sinking in to the ground with every step.
Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[taijiquan_student]

How does tensing up at the moment of impact go along with "chi striking"? Wouldn't contracting the muscles be a detriment to "chi striking", because you're blocking the meridians?
I've heard some internal people do this, and I've never really understood it properly. Why do you do this? Thanks.

[HuangKaiVun]

Hsing Yi USED to be a tension filled knockout type of style.

It's seldom practiced that way anymore.

In real fighting, you HAVE to contract your muscles to get movements out. That actually helps the meridians in real fighting, as the goal is to project destructive energy from your body into the opponent(s).

I've met a good number of these "soft" internal stylists, including one who claimed who could propel my body 15 feet through the air! Unfortunately, his best push didn't even send me fifteen millimeters off the ground.

One can claim to have internal strength and even demonstrate it admirably in a noncombative setting. But unless you've got the muscles, you're in deep trouble in real combat.

The best "internal" fighters I've met have VERY strong muscles and tendons, though they usually don't have the chiseled look of bodybuilders.

[The Willow Sword]

Taijiquan student:when you are doing the hsings, and the sets your body is relaxed. there is going to be natural instances where your body tenses up when you move or strike in a form.
when you fight and you strike you tense that punch at the moment of impact and then you relax it again. i guess it is hard to explain,,it is better done in demonstration.

HKV: what do you mean that hsing yi USED to be a tension filled knockout type of style? i have always known it to be that.

well i dont know who you have been hangin with but in my old days of training with master nessen those "soft" aspects were not as you describe them. they were essential to the building of chi and when utlilized it stopped you dead in your tracks.

MRTWS

[Muppet]

Take this with a grain of salt, but there seems to be two approaches (which happen to be related to each other).

For many modern variants of Hsing I, you tense at the very last second and so it's more a combination of momentum and rooting (straight connection to the ground from the feet to the waist) at the moment of impact. The more solid the root at impact, the better.

If you can root effortlessly and unconsciously from the waist down, then the only requirement is to tense the upper body. For instance, I can be VERY relaxed from the waist down and someone can be push me straight back as hard as they want and it won't matter. I only tense a very minimal amount that I need in the lower body and legs to maintain a certain structure so that the push gets transferred straight to the ground.

Also, it takes me a second or two to get that rooted feeling, which is a second or two too long. There's a reason why some of the old Hsing I guys would stand, stand, stand and then do the chicken step all day, even at the cost of public derision.

And, I don't have anything yet for my upper body so I HAVE to keep it tense to prevent the push from bending my body backwards.

The other way is to let your body alignment do ALL of the work in your entire body, so it absolutely does NOT work if:
a). You're not rooted at the moment of impact.
b). You don't have that relaxed yet solid root from the feet ALL THE WAY to your upper body (and arms, depending on what you're hitting with).

The second way is just the logical conclusion of hsing i training, with the first way as an interim, but probably takes a fantastic amount of training before it becomes completely natural.

There is little margin for error to get the body into proper alignment and get that proper feeling of being grounded, so there's no middle ground in being able to use this stuff effectively.

[Muppet]

HKV, outwardly speaking, I think one difference between internalists and non-internalists is that internalists tend to have VERY strong legs.

My instructor's upper body isn't particularly impressive--he's not a stick but it's neither chiselled nor particularly noticeable (he doesn't have huge pecs that stick out of the shirt, for instance).

But his legs are monstrous.

Also, strong wrists and hands seem to be essential, especially if you're into chin-na applications.

Edit: Actually, his shoulders seem big. Not the deltoids, which aren't defined at all, but the shoulder itself, which is REALLY thick.

[HuangKaiVun]

A lot of Hsing Yi today, MRTWS, is practiced in a gentle relaxed manner even for combat usage.

Of course, it all goes out the window the instant one of those practitioners is grabbed HARD by somebody who knows how to grapple.

When I mean "hard", I mean HARD. I don't mean just muscles straining, voice groaning. I also mean having the softness to counter (or go through) somebody if he interrupts your move in a combat flurry.

Also, the "modern" way of doing Hsing Yi with the 3-point stance is universally seen. But in the old days (as in hundreds of years ago), Hsing Yi was done out of a side horse stance. To this day, some people in China still practice Hsing Yi that way (according to my sifu who saw them working out).


Muppet, your description of the build of an authentic kung fu fighter is right on the money.

I'm built pretty much like that myself, at 5'4" and 150 lbs (gained 20 pounds of muscle since I started accepting students in January, and that's without lifting weights). I went from having a Jet Li type of build to having a far more mesomorphic frame.

Most of my students (as well as myself) have experienced that growing of leg muscles. That's what it takes to stay on your feet when grabbed by a big guy(s). Yet the quickness I have now is far greater than when I first started, and I was quick then too.

I've also noticed that the MMA grappling types have powerful combat muscles and sinewy tensions. Just because a guy lifts tons of weights doesn't mean that he has strength where it counts, especially when he fights somebody who does. That said, real fighters spend so much time pushing and lifting EACH OTHER!

The irony is that Royce Gracie probably fits the description of what people think is "internal" than I do!

[foolinthedeck]

great responses,
thanks!
what are you doing to make your legs monstrous? anything in particular or something special? and are these legs like those of a body builder ie like arnies before he got really famous with the films etc, or are they like the legs on for example a squirrel?

i find that the best internalists seem to look big like balloons, they can 'inflate' with energy, which isnt ribbed muscle although of course its there.
thanks again.
fitd

[The Willow Sword]

The reason internalists legs are strong is because for one: in tai chi they are moving slow and creating resistence on the leg muscles and that builds them up quite nicely. plus some internalists that i have met are also weight lifters. they go to the gym and do free weights. in hsingi there are two methods of stepping, there is the dragging of the stepping as to stay connected to the ground(thoery being that when your foot comes off of the ground you have "uprooted yourself" and are vunerable to the grappling and take downs that Huangkaivun spoke about. thats why you rarely see hsingi practitioners kick. the stepping can be a kick but the targets are the shins and or knees.
the other type of stepping is the stomping that is done in some of the hsings. these stepping methods build the legs up. that in addition to sinking chi from tan tien.

HKV : i agree that hsing i has modernized a bit but i still believe that alot of it hasnt changed much. side horse stances in hsingi iam not familiar with. seems to me that a side horse stance would offset your balance and santi corrects this imbalance. plus noone fights in low stances HKV. in the old vids i have seen and the old pics the fighters have a higher stance. which to me is a truer fighting stance than that of a low one.
that seems to be some of the modernization i have seen. (the lower stances).
Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[GeneChing]

I'm not sure that tension is the right way to describe it. Xingyi has a lot of fajin - explosive energy - and that might be perceived as tension if not executed quite right. It's more like the moment of the whip crack, when all the power from suppleness snaps through the target. For an instant, it's an exponential expression of power. But if you cling to it, you become rigid, or tense. Ideally, you release this, stay supple, just like a whip after cracking. But most of us tend to power through the whole move, instead of being supple. Therein lies the work in an internal style, at least for anyone trying to fight with it.

[HuangKaiVun]

Trust me, TWS, Hsing Yi has changed A LOT.

Most of the old photos of the old generation masters (Sun Lu Tang, Guo Yun Shen, etc . . . ) feature the modern 3 point Hsing Yi methodology.

We in our kung fu lineage fight from low stances. That's because we grapple. When I see Russian Sambo guys in their combat stances, they remind me so much of the way we stand.

In fact, my Seng Men methodology fights out of that mobile side horse stance. We don't always adhere strictly to the horse, but we angle ourselves that way to keep grapplers (particularly the MMA types) from taking us down. If we do go down, we still adhere to our side horse principles to maneuver our man for escapes or submissions.

Old style Hsing Yi (as in hundreds of years ago) is known to fight this way as well. What a lot of people feel is "old school" kung fu today is actually "modern" in light of the way things used to be - especially in light of all-out real combat scenarios.

Ironically, the battle tested effectiveness of yore has all the more relevance today!


My experience has been that nothing gets the legs bigger than grappling it out with opponents who are trying to take you down or force you to submit.

I train Hsing Yi with that explosive fa-jing, but I do it in a different way than Sifu Chen does.

I still maintain a great deal of tension before actually striking because the wrestlers we go against will mow right through you if you let your guard down.

[The Willow Sword]

Old style Hsing Yi (as in hundreds of years ago) is known to fight this way as well. What a lot of people feel is "old school" kung fu today is actually "modern" in light of the way things used to be - especially in light of all-out real combat scenarios

uhh so tell me WHO is it that has kept this "old way" going that teaches you? is there some secret lost link that has nothing to do with the "old generation" masters and thier disciples that taught after them? and what about these old generation masters teachers?
i Apologize but i am a tad skeptical of your reasoning. can you post a link to your schools website and thier history? and will it tell of the principles you spoke of?

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[foolinthedeck]

the more i read, the more xing i mirrors my wing chun.
what willowsword said about few kicks for example and they are all to shin or knee, this si very similar as is the reasoning behind it. also the whip snap, the same. its ironic that i could post the exact same question almost along the lines of wing chun tense or relaxed and get similar answers. so it seems that the only answer is in the practictioner. i can be a relaxed spring boxer who emyulates a relaxed mindformer or a tense emulating a tense.

thanks