Chinese Military Kung Fu Sets [Archive]

taichi4eva

07-13-2003, 08:12 AM

During World War II and the war between the Nationalists and the Communists, soldiers were taught both armed and unarmed combat. Lien-Bu-Quan and Chung-I-Quan were taught to the Nationalist army. During World War II, Tang Fong taught his regiment the Hung Gar Tiger Crane Set and Siu Lam Dao, and Chan Sau Chung taught his Liu Ye Dan Dao.

Are there any other sets that were taught to the military during the beginning of the twentieth century?

Thanks

StickyHands

07-13-2003, 01:33 PM

I have a question, what exact style is being taught to the chinese military now? And what form of combat is being taught to our military (US)? Is it different for Marines or Army and etc?

David Jamieson

07-13-2003, 01:41 PM

The Chinese military learns Chung I Chuan and Lien Bo Chuan.

Check out the Alex Tao videos for info on hard core chinese military and police fighting styles. Those vids are available through www.martialartsmart.com

The american military does have an h2h manual that was composed with the help of the gracies. In fact, it reads like a gracie jujitsu manual lol.

But, further training after bootcamp and such is totally up to the individual soldier.

In the canadian forces, there is h2h training as well which is standard stuff and some jujitsu, some karate, and some principled techniques that belong to No style.

(where principle means, those things that are known truths as opposed to rules)

cheers

StickyHands

07-13-2003, 01:48 PM

Ok will there be any American responding to this? LOL. No offense, but BJJ? HAHA. Is there any link to Chung I Chuan sites?

David Jamieson

07-13-2003, 02:00 PM

just do a search on Chung I Chuan and it will turn up lots of stuff about the Taiwanese Military training.

Lin bo is a set that is taught as well. I am sure the Red army of Mainland China has a variety of skills they practice, but likely not drawn from a singular system.

The taiwanese army and the red army are not the same and do not have the same curriculums for h2h.

As for the Gracies and the american military h2h combatives manual, that's been a known for a few years now. They altered the h2h manual recently with the help of the Gracies.

btw and fwiw, Gracie Jujitsu is not the same as Brazilian Jujitsu.
It may have been at one time, but no more, hence the name change.

cheers

StickyHands

07-13-2003, 02:07 PM

Im sure our military have incorporated Gracie techniques, but come, most of the Gracie techniques were subsidized to matwork and grappling, they really dont have that many standing throws like an ordinary jujutsu, im sure our military does not only practice Gracie stuff. And I tired using Yahoo and google for Chung I Chuan, but not much of a help. I also wonder what our covert black ops train under.

David Jamieson

07-13-2003, 03:14 PM

I also wonder what our covert black ops train under

murder and obfuscation. Those guys have no morals or scruples whatsoever :D

the basic h2h doled out to the us marines and enlisted men is almost exclusively Gracie stuff.

It is not all takes down on the ground type stuff, but most of it is.
FWIW, the Gracies system of fighting is not all that bad at all. It has proven itself effective again and again and has forced a lot of pro fighters to rethink their approach and to actually change their entire training regimens in order to be able to counter the stuff!

cheers

StickyHands

07-13-2003, 03:16 PM

got any links to chung i chuan?

WanderingMonk

07-13-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by StickyHands
got any links to chung i chuan?

http://www.tacocity.com.tw/dasinew/lab/page8.htm

the animate gif at the end of the web page is chung i chuan.

TW army do TKD nows. sad sad sad.

wm

Eddie

07-14-2003, 05:17 AM

SA army now also started TKD as part of their training

GeneChing

07-14-2003, 09:08 AM

chung i chuan (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tc-ks001e.html)

ZIM

07-14-2003, 11:49 AM

BJJ for the USA is correct. I have a link to the manual someplace...
One problem involves wearing packs when doing BJJ...

USMC is doing their own martial arts program. Waiting to hear more about it.

Used to be Judo was used. It was first instituted by the Air Force during WWII as a means of HtH on a plane. Can't shoot in a plane, after all, and when the floor is pitching around, slamming the guy is your best bet I guess.

jmd161

07-14-2003, 12:32 PM

I saw a special on this about a few months ago.

They were talking with some Rangers during h2h combat drills.And what they were using was Gracie Jujitsu.They spoke with the commander and he told how the Gracies designed a program just for the U.S. Armed Forces.

jeff:)

Black Jack

07-15-2003, 02:54 PM

First off the army is the unit now using more of the BJJ ground work but it is altered for non-sportive issue with the hand work being more western boxing with maybe some of the old dirty judo still in it.

The marines use the MCMAP system which replaced the line system. A combination of different western and asian fistic systems. The old stuff from ww2 and korea IMO is way better than the current stuff being used now. Back it was combat judo with a focus on atemi striking, a few combat chokes and throws, this is not your standard sport judo. the new stuff is way to complicated like most commerical fighting arts.

Fairbairn, Applegate, Styers, Brown, Biddle, Kengla, O'Neil, are just some of the men and close combat systems used in the past by american fighting men.

Crushing Step

07-16-2003, 01:50 AM

Speaking first hand, as I am in the US Navy...

Yes, combat training is largely up to individuals. I actually first was exposed to kung fu while deployed on an aircraft carrier. There were a few small "schools" being run by people of various styles. My sifu actually was part of our security force, and trained them in chin na and weapon defenses.

Tae Kwon Do tends to be the most popular, probably because of how popular it is in the civilian world. I actually hold a TKD black belt, and teach a class onboard another US carrier right now. I previously taught on a naval base. Being that I move all the time in the military, I've been exposed to many martial arts. So under the unbrella of TKD, since it is the only style I am authorized to, I teach an ecclectic blend of all I know. But it is totally voluntary.

At the other military bases here (air force and army) they also have TKD classes. Each branch of the military also sponsors it's own TKD competition team.

Then of course you have your special forces. These guys use techniques from a bunch of styles, and use what works. If you thumb through a Black Belt magazine, you will find about four different schmoes who all claim to teach THE navy seal fighting system. One of those guys actually teaches here in my area. His style is Vale Tudo / MMA. He does a combination of Muay Thai, Escrima, and BJJ.

Hope this helps.

Royal Dragon

07-16-2003, 06:20 AM

Black Jack,
Question, did Fairbairn, Applegate ever put out a Knife fighting manual? I thought I read somewhere they designed a really kick ass knife fighting system for the military, just wondering if there is a manual for it.

Black Jack

07-16-2003, 08:38 AM

Royal,

Fairbairn and Applegate both had knife systems but they were more close quarter assassination style systems than mano-y-mano styles like that of Styers.

What are shown in Get Tough and Kill or Be Killed are actually from what I hear just tips of the iceberg. Military systems like Fairbairns are very simple and direct, nothing complicated, coupled with forward aggression, drive, subterfuge, and dirty tricks they are straight to the point....pardon the pun.

Close in blows of the smatchet include thrusts into the thorac region, subclavian, heart or stomach, sabre cuts to the carotids, pommel smashes when up close, limb cuts to the brachial and radial arteries, femoral artieries, just nasty thrusting and pumping combined with infighting.

Styers on the other hand is more of a largo/long range style that uses biddle bowie and military saber methods.

Cheers.

Royal Dragon

07-16-2003, 08:46 AM

Interesting. Do you have the manuals on the system?

Black Jack

07-16-2003, 09:04 AM

I have get tough, cold steel and kill or get killed.

You can pick them up from paladin press plus I have done some research on the methods. If you are looking to get into knife play from styers go take some saber fencing classes as that will really help you out as it is a long blade style of play and is based on classical saber and cut and thrust sword techniques.

Take some fencing anyway because it is also great for stickplay and footwork.

Or if you are looking to get some hands on knife work I hear a good school is Islanders Karate in Orland Park which works with arnis.

When you think of fairbairn think of prison style shanking. Smash, unbalance and gouge into the guy as you pump and gut him with your blade. A classic move is the bulldog rush. A football lineman drive into the guy where you either send your freehand's forearm up and under his chin or claw his face to distract his line of vision from you as you pump the blade into like a madman into his body.

Black Jack

07-16-2003, 09:04 AM

fragbot

07-16-2003, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Kung Lek
[B]just do a search on Chung I Chuan and it will turn up lots of stuff about the Taiwanese Military training.

Not meaning to be dense, but where/how. In the not-so-distant past, I spent a good amount of time trying to google this up. It's too **** common even with Taiwan or army as a qualifier.

At one point, Sal Cannzonieri wrote an article on Chung I Chuan. Anyone know what happened to that guy? He was prolific.

norther practitioner

07-16-2003, 09:51 AM

You could also try searching the forums...:D

fragbot

07-16-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by norther practitioner
You could also try searching the forums...:D

But how. Searching on chung i chuan or "chung i chuan" finds very little beyond our current thread.

I don't think there's that much information on the forums about this system.

ZIM

07-16-2003, 12:04 PM

get tough (http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01.shtml) online

bob10

07-16-2003, 02:33 PM

Just found this on another board concerning Russian military styles:

" Once-and only once-I was a conscript in Soviet military...
In "uchebka"-equivalent to bootcamp- we had about 2 hrs. a week dedicated to H2H. Nothing special- but not bad.
After "uchebka"- plenty of freestyle "whatever works for you" with some organized drills taught by officers- some would describe it as combat sambo. Military sambo??? Whats that? The terms used in Russia and former USSR to describe most of what was taught to Spetsnaz units were "rukopashnyi boi" (direct translation-hand to hand combat) and "boevoe sambo"(translation-combat sambo). Troops reffered to whatever was taught as "rukopashka"- shortened slang term for hand to hand, or "machalka" or "boinia"- both terms are slang for fighting, beating.
Systema was and is little known subject even inside Spetsnaz. Some who are fortunate to see someone from GRU doing Systema have no clue what they are witnessing... As it happened to me. Comparing combat sambo to Systema is futile. Totally different concept and approach. One is for soldier. The other- for specialist."

jun_erh

07-25-2003, 02:05 PM

I learned this style from Paul rosado is Boston. He still teaches here, but is kind of hard to find. His sifu (refers to him as sipa) was a soldier in the Chinese army. The class is called chuan kuo shu. I never learned the knife or firearms techniques. There were no forms, very demanding class. IN general block punch punch, trip/throw, chin na.

Lokhopkuen

08-01-2003, 08:24 PM

I think you are mistaken on the american military h2h manual. I was in speacial forces six years and they don't teach that Gracie b u l l s h i t in the US Military. Just real basic kill, kill, kill stuff.
What would you know about our military in Canada? Can't belive everything you see on discovery channel...

Lokhopkuen:D :D

modsquadder

Registered: Dec 1969
Location: Canada
Posts: 2080

The Chinese military learns Chung I Chuan and Lien Bo Chuan.

Check out the Alex Tao videos for info on hard core chinese military and police fighting styles. Those vids are available through www.martialartsmart.com

The american military does have an h2h manual that was composed with the help of the gracies. In fact, it reads like a gracie jujitsu manual lol.

But, further training after bootcamp and such is totally up to the individual soldier.

In the canadian forces, there is h2h training as well which is standard stuff and some jujitsu, some karate, and some principled techniques that belong to No style.

(where principle means, those things that are known truths as opposed to rules)

cheers

__________________
peace

Lokhopkuen

08-01-2003, 08:32 PM

Ha-ha! I happen to be a graduate of one of the US ARMY TKD programs and you have no idea. Those cats would kick your face on backwards dude. Six mile runs in bare feet, 1000 kicks every kick both legs before breakfast! Punching sand bags that feel like concret until your knuckles bleed.... There is a big difference between corner store TKD and Military TKD. A big difference.
I however am an avid practitioner of Chinese martial arts but you should never assume just because someone practiced TKD that they wont just woop yo azzzz Bro!

Peace

Lokhopkuen

WanderingMonk
Member

Registered: Nov 2002
Location: US
Posts: 97

quote:
Originally posted by StickyHands
got any links to chung i chuan?

http://www.tacocity.com.tw/dasinew/lab/page8.htm

the animate gif at the end of the web page is chung i chuan.

TW army do TKD nows. sad sad sad.

wm

Subzero

08-02-2003, 05:35 PM

The brittish force I believe , apart form being taughthand to hand combat, are oncouraged to take upa martial art (ie Kaarte TKD or Jud o etc.)NO ung fu as far as i know.:MAD:That's what i've read and been told.
I know that one of the arts that the brittish SAS studdies is ju jitsu.(As MY instructors know the man that trains them.

Lokhopkuen

08-02-2003, 08:30 PM

Jujitsu is a good solid art I truthfully just have trouble with the Gracie Attitude....:eek:

WanderingMonk

08-04-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Ha-ha! I happen to be a graduate of one of the US ARMY TKD programs and you have no idea. Those cats would kick your face on backwards dude. Six mile runs in bare feet, 1000 kicks every kick both legs before breakfast! Punching sand bags that feel like concret until your knuckles bleed.... There is a big difference between corner store TKD and Military TKD. A big difference.
I however am an avid practitioner of Chinese martial arts but you should never assume just because someone practiced TKD that they wont just woop yo azzzz Bro!

Peace

I don't have a problem with TKD. I have a problem with Chinese Military training in TKD when there is perfectly good Kung-fu available. TKD is huge in TW while Kung-fu gets no love. Heck, the government is subsidizing TKD while Kung-fu is dying.

you might also want to check out the latest US army combative manual.
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/ch3.htm

As far as I can tell, that look like BJJ.

wm

Lokhopkuen

08-04-2003, 06:00 PM

Kung fu dieing? Interesting. I practice Chinese martial art everyday, I've taught it to my wife, my sons and several hundred people. I am active in promoting the art through many, many venues as well as my class mates and kung fu cousins and this is just our art.
No my friend kung fu is far from dead.

Peace

Lokhopkuen