World Wing Chun Conference VCD's

[DarthGorn]

Just wondering what anyone's thoughts are on the World Wing Chun Conference 1999 VCD's? Are they worth buying?

[kj]

For learning Wing Chun, absolutely not.

For the sake of novelty, a brief survey of some demonstrations, or just a bit of who's who, and if you have extra money burning a hole in your pocket, then sure.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ernie]

o.k. here i go getting trouble for being honest ,
i got mine for free downloaded it of the internet and to be honest it was so bad i just deleted it , there might have been 1 or two people that were decent ,
but the demo's sucked and the chi sau comp. made me want to push a dull object through my eyes .
except for a couple of high lights were some guys had good body mechnics , some speed and power the rest left me real bummed, it was sad to see the state that wing chun is in .
but at least people had fun and made connections may be next year

[PaulH]

Ernie,

You keep running your mouth to troubles, my friend. Ha! Ha!

"Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change.
- Robert Francis Kennedy"

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:it was sad to see the state that wing chun is in .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense- on these general proclamations on the state of wing chun.

What the participants showed in the vcd- represents the participants....no more no less.
Wing Chun world is a very diverse one- period.

[old jong]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Ernie sez:it was sad to see the state that wing chun is in .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense- on these general proclamations on the state of wing chun.

What the participants showed in the vcd- represents the participants....no more no less.
Wing Chun world is a very diverse one- period.

Yuanfen is 100% correct on this.

[PaulH]

Okay I go along with 99.99%. This is like James Bond 101. One must allow for the possibility that the spies may get caught in their treacherous acts and as a responsible and respectable head of a state, one must deny all knowledges concerning their whereabouts or questionable activities.

Regards,

[Ernie]

wow
the classical crew is sensitive ,

[Nonsense- on these general proclamations on the state of wing chun.

What the participants showed in the vcd- represents the participants....no more no less.
Wing Chun world is a very diverse one- period.]

thank you for filling me in on the wing chun world next time i have a question on the state of ''wing chun'' affairs i'll be sure to run it through your press people , \starting with the secretary of wing chun state ''old jong''

relax stay off the caffine , breath
i see what i see you see what you see no big deal mr chairman
. p.s. period
;)

[yuanfen]

Re Ernie's latest post
- there is a world of difference between agreeing or disagreeing with a statement and sarcasm about supposed sensitivty
of an alleged secretary of state or whatever.
Far more constructive would be to provide a reasoning if the vcd
represents the sad state of wing chun.

[old jong]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Re Ernie's latest post
- there is a world of difference between agreeing or disagreeing with a statement and sarcasm about supposed sensitivty
of an alleged secretary of state or whatever.
Far more constructive would be to provide a reasoning if the vcd
represents the sad state of wing chun.

101.09% correct this time!...;)
Secretary of Wing Chun state: Old Jong ;)

[Ernie]

is the part were i'm supposed to be politically correct ,
yeah right,
well there was poor body mechanics,rigid footwork , over all rigid everything , complete lack of natural and fluid motion and power , the demo's were sorry except for the bald guy with the pole , i think that kwok dude looked good but a little to chain punchy for my taste , that bong sau parlor trick with that old guy and that other over animated guy was just plain sad, the sparring was way over commited tp the point they just fell over
then some fat dudes doing chi sau was at least funny ,
but like i said looked like everyone was having fun and that is the point right
[ to not take things so serious ]:o

[yuanfen]

Good statement... except for pointing out specific performances-
KJ and I both in effect said that the VCD is NOT useful as a tool for learning. So agree in principle on the quality. But you missed the main question- why do you think that
the VTTA/VCD represents the sad state of the art? In contrast-Some folks are not always in awe of what the VTAA sponsors or does.

[Ernie]

well i don't even know the people names i don't follow the who's who and when and what stuff i just look for skill expressed through body motion,
as for[VTAA sponsors ] don't know or care to know what that is , i didn't get into wing chun to be part of some grand social club , only wanted to improve my skills through a system that works of the human form , not some animal or unnatural body posture

so when i see wing chun guys all stiff and robotic with there legs glued to the ground , or all out of shape and sloppy like they have no respect for there tool '' the body''
yet they still seem very pompus and like to run there mouths off like that old cat that did the knives with this constipated look on his face [ some death stare ] yet he moved like a sloth
i just figured these guys represented the top guys since they acted so important
as for the over all state of wing chun can't say i have seen everyone on the planet but i have seen some very talented folks from different families .
oh another thing that drove me crazy was when they brought out the scale and wieghed the stance i was busting up on that one .
what did you think of specific performances since you probably know there names.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Good statement except for pointing out specific performances???!!!! "

Written by the same guy who also criticizes Ernie for "general proclamations about wing chun???!!! "

Yuanfen...(Joy)...you're a joke...You talk from both sides of your mouth so that ANY AND ALL LEGITIMATE criticism of the sad state of the dinosaur philosophy and practice of wing chun that you advocate...can be eliminated.

It will never be eliminated - because what such criticisms represent is the future survival of wing chun - whereas your wing chun ways ARE THE PAST...

What you represent in the wing chun world will be little more a footnote on the bottom of the page of future martial arts history books...

Keep up the good work, Ernie. Yours is a fresh new voice that is most welcome here !!!

[Ernie]

victor
hey man thank's for the kind words , maybe if i get back east i'll lok you up and we can share and compare , one of my gung fu brothers is going back next week , if you don't mind maybe he can drop by , he is a bit different then me a little more of a tradionalist [ used to be a moy yat guy before he came to gary's] but over all good people .

as for the other issue the problem i find with wing chun is it draws out very inteligent people , the problem with that is there to smart for there own good they spend time analyzining the problems from all angles and come up with oppinions and answers then just dismiss this or that , but they never live the moment they just talk about what it is like to live the moment .

there is much lost in the translation

[yuanfen]

Victor sez:

WHAT A CONTRADICTORY JOKE
"Good statement except for pointing out specific performances???!!!! "

((Putting things in quotation marks does not mean that you are quoting accurately.Not quite what i wrote- as repeated below:

"Good statement... except for pointing out specific performances-
KJ and I both in effect said that the VCD is NOT useful as a tool for learning."))



Other personal remarks ignored.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yuanfen:

You have conveniently ignored the ENTIRE issue I have raised - but it is still there for others who read this thread to see.

You contradicted yourself as regards two different posts you made in response to Ernie.

The smokescreen of your last post was a nice try - but no cigar.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

When you get to New York check out my website.

The web address is: www.crosswinds.net/~wingchun

My email address is: wingchun@usa.com

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Your friend is also welcome (I was one of Moy Yat's original USA students - for 8 years)...so your friend and I will have much to talk about.

[Ernie]

victor
i'm on the phone with him now he studied with anthony dandridge moy tung and nathon schaller
i'll pass on your address peace

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Good statement except for pointing out specific performances???!!!! "

Written by the same guy who also criticizes Ernie for "general proclamations about wing chun???!!! "

Yuanfen...(Joy)...you're a joke...You talk from both sides of your mouth so that ANY AND ALL LEGITIMATE criticism of the sad state of the dinosaur philosophy and practice of wing chun that you advocate...can be eliminated.

It will never be eliminated - because what such criticisms represent is the future survival of wing chun - whereas your wing chun ways ARE THE PAST...

What you represent in the wing chun world will be little more a footnote on the bottom of the page of future martial arts history books...

Keep up the good work, Ernie. Yours is a fresh new voice that is most welcome here !!!

Talking about fresh new voices...Your's is pretty rude and you certainly lack a proper education in good manners and civility somewhere in your life.Or is it the new MMA tendencies in etiquette that you are showing so well?...

[Miles Teg]

Ernie
The guy on the scales was Chu Shong tin. What did you think was so funny about the scales?

[Ernie]

has nothing to do with fighting ,has that parlor trick effect , but i feel that way about anything that is done in that fashion , breaking boards ,immovable bong sau's all that stuff is funny, can comment on his skills since i didn't see him move or show any body mechanics .

[Miles Teg]

I thought is was a pretty impressive trick myself - of course I am bias.

I think it is difficult to show anything infront of an big audience.
One of CHu Shong TIns strengths in W.C is the ability to hold or break through the structure of fully resisting partner while still keeping his muscles relaxed. The demonstration just shows that he can hold his structure and reroot it to the ground even with a great force.

There were people that did seem to be rigid and not connected but it was still nice to watch the VCD. I didnt think the chi sau match was too bad. The guy who won seemed to have good structure and relaxed pressure, while the other guy looked as if he was from the no forward pressure chi sau camp and couldnt hold his structure very well. I only saw it briefly once, but that was the impression I had.

By the way does anyone know who those 2 chi sau guys were and what schools they are from?

[Ernie]

miles
first of all i'm not trying to be argumentive , but if his skill is to blow some one out with relaxed structure , then why not simply get some one larger and built have them allply muslce in a chi sau enviroment like a grab or something and just send the dude flying , i don't see why it would be so hard to express a fighting skill in a fighting demo ,
but that's just me i like to keep things simple and live ,as for the guys doing chi sau the had no footwork or rhthem just to guys with stiff legs playing in a little box , no angles hard and soft or forward pressure or control just roll ,roll ,roll, the blitz a lop sau , or stick out a stiff hand then roll, and roll, and roll, until the next blitz , no redirection skills at all . to me them seemed like rockem sockem robots , i was waiting for a head to pop off :)
but every one looks at things through there own filter so you like it i think it's un natural and the world still goes round .

[yylee]

Ernie

Perhaps next time we hire Jackie Chan or Yuen Wo Ping to direct all the action scenes, make sures lots of heads pop up, all hands (including the third) flying in all directions every other minute, alright with ya! :D

Really as the first demo of the show, shouldn't make it too exciting. Why not save the heart pumping stuff to the end. Let the young steal the show! After all, if you follow Chu Shong Tin's writings or methods at all, you would realize his emphasis on SNT is not towards the figting aspects of it. Rather, it is a cultivation of structure and, for the most part - the mind. So I say the scale demo is proper.

If you'd rather see Chu in action, the HCH school of Australia sells a set of his seminar VCD's. It is not hard to see people flying there (in fact, he doesn't really like to see you fly, he'd rather see you stand closer and swallow his punch ;) )

hey Miles!

There are several pairs of Chi Sau competitors there, which winner are you talking about? I see no trophies though :)

[Edmund]

Ernie,

The scales thing sucks!

But the sad state of demos on the VCD don't reflect on the sad state of WC. Due to the popularity and spread of WC, the average ability will not be high. Even the ability of big names will not always be high. Names are often built on hype.

HOWEVER there are still good WC people around who teach real skills. They reflect more about the state of WC than the average does.

And perspectives differ. You linked to some WC clips a fair while back that I didn't think very much of.

[yuanfen]

There is nothing wrong with TST's bong sao. His structure is both springy and substantial.

[Ernie]

edmund ,
the only clips i ever put up were on my server not a sight , so if those sucked cool , you can email gary lam and let him know :D
never said all wing chun sucks would have deoted so many years to it if i believed it sucked ,
still believe it has lost alot of it's fighting spirit and become very ****ginized , to much focus on forms and stories and not enough testing of application in my book but as you have your opinion i have mine and it's all good.but since you stepped up what exactly didn't you like about gary's clips , be honest i love to here your critisizem.

yylee

Chu Shong Tin's writings , sorry i really don't know who he is and have never read anything from him , all i had to go by is my views on the demo,
i look for application in action and balance speed power timing and adaptability , this is my lens when viewing any martial artist or fighter ,
to me body mechanics don't lie so i let that be the judge . for all i know or don't know the guy could walk on water but i didn't see that .
so no direspect ment towards the individual , i just didn't get the demo
:rolleyes:

[Miles Teg]

Ernie
Body mechanics is his thing. Hes made a science out of it. If you are in Europe I dont think you will be able to find any of his schools. The main ones are in Hong Kong, Australia and Canada. But if you get a chance you should check one of them out. There is plenty of written articles he has on the net including a double interview with WSL. By the way your profile says WSL and WT. How does that work out? Is it a mixture? or have you done both?

As for the Chi sau match, well you may be right I saw it very briefly quite a while ago.

YYLee
I dont know which one it was to be honest. I watched it very briefly at a friends house. I only saw one Chi Sau match and the only thing I remember thinking was the guy that lost had a rather shakey structure. So I assumed he couldnt handle pressure very well. The winner didnt look bad to me. I think I am going to need to purchase the DVD sometime and watch it again.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Ernie
yylee

Chu Shong Tin's writings , sorry i really don't know who he is and have never read anything from him , all i had to go by is my views on the demo,
i look for application in action and balance speed power timing and adaptability , this is my lens when viewing any martial artist or fighter ,
to me body mechanics don't lie so i let that be the judge . for all i know or don't know the guy could walk on water but i didn't see that .
so no direspect ment towards the individual , i just didn't get the demo
:rolleyes:

not surprised, I know some who practiced WC for more years than you and I but never heard of Chu's name. I doubt your sifu Gary knows too much about him either. Chu is rather low key among many of his peers, people only hear more about him in recent years.

WSL and TST (aka Chu Shong Tin) were buddies, they went to Holland together for a seminar some 10-12 years ago (if memory serves).

yeah TST's demo doesn't show his speed. Try his seminar VCD may be :)

For body mechanics, I've grown to tell a few things just by looking at still photos; such as where the body is locked, how much body link the person has, or how much local muscle is used... Not a very good WC guy myself but I say just watching forms alone can tell lots about body mechanics. Oh well, I wear different glasses and the sun is shinning at a different angle here up North. :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
YYLee
The winner didnt look bad to me. I think I am going to need to purchase the DVD sometime and watch it again.

Miles, I think you're referring to Norman Ma, the Chinese guy with a beard, right?

[Miles Teg]

Cant really remember. After I watch again in the future Ill let you know.

By the way I didnt have any luck trying to get the TST dvds by credit card. Ill have to look into other means.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Ernie
edmund ,
the only clips i ever put up were on my server not a sight , so if those sucked cool , you can email gary lam and let him know :D
never said all wing chun sucks would have deoted so many years to it if i believed it sucked ,
still believe it has lost alot of it's fighting spirit and become very ****ginized , to much focus on forms and stories and not enough testing of application in my book but as you have your opinion i have mine and it's all good.but since you stepped up what exactly didn't you like about gary's clips , be honest i love to here your critisizem.


Firstly I believe I only could get one clip - changing hands.
2nd, this is just my opinion and it was a while ago so I'm going off memory.

I didn't think much of the concept or how the concept was demoed. Many concepts can be useful and applicable but the way this was presented I didn't find it realistic. e.g.
The pushing of the compliant target into the big padding behind was not something I'm overly into. A lot of WC people have these pushing type demos that rub me the wrong way. I don't think pushing is a very good demo of power though some people do get impressed by this sort of thing.

[S.Teebas]

Ernie Says

...has nothing to do with fighting ,has that parlor trick effect , but i feel that way about anything that is done in that fashion , breaking boards ,immovable bong sau's all that stuff is funny, can comment on his skills since i didn't see him move or show any body mechanics .

The kind of structure Chu Seung Tin has gives him the utmost ability to relax to unbelievably high levels, this relaxation allows joints to move extremely fast. His Stance demonstration shows how he has the ability to absorb huge amounts of force. Combine this stance with the lightning-fast strikes and it’s truly amazing how much power he can generate. It really is something you have to feel, rather than see. He can crash through your defence like your arms are little twigs!

My understanding of TST’s teaching is that his method really is an UNDERSTANING. It’s that simple, if you don’t understand it, then it really does look like a lot of mumbo-jumbo. No-ones fault, it takes time to understand something like WC.

[Phil Redmond]

Oye Asere,
I saw those VCDs also. There was a demo by three of William Cheung's students showing the 3 forms and some cross arm chi sao drills that was edited. Also some of William Cheung's speech was edited. I have the missing footage on video. It was taken by one of Sifu Cheung's students in the audience. If you'd like to see it I can get it to you. Email me.
Phil

[yuanfen]

S.Teebas sez:

No-ones fault, it takes time to understand something like WC.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------TRUE!
TST's stance and adjusting to force is no parlor trick.

[Ernie]

phil
hook me up love to check it out

s.teebas
No-ones fault, it takes time to understand something like WC.
dude wing chun is not that complicated as long as you keep it in the relm of fighting '' non wing chun people '' once you walk off that path and try to make it into this or that then it gets all fuzzy,
if all you do is chi sau all day then it gets lost in meaning less details , you get to crispy and tunnel vision. if you never use it then you will be foced to fill the time being overly anylitacal,
once you put the heat on then the raw material takes shape and you refine yourself not the art......0.2

miles
shows you how little i keep track of names and logo's my profile is probably screwed up;) i live in the u.s. and i have only trained i the wsl system but i work out with guys from a few different systems , i will make it a point to check out Chu Seung Tin based by the passonate replys i have gotten this is generally inspired by a strong source , i'll be going to canada for a snowboarding trip so i'll check out a school , again i wasn't dissing the man only my interpetation of the demo

edmund
thanks for getting back to me , that was a po pai clip application from the dummy form , that whole section on the dummy is about pushing so you definitly woild hate it:D
if you want to see something a little more balistic just let me know i can hook you up with a longer clip is a lot more fist in the face type stuff.

yylee
i'll track down a vcd i'm sure i can find a copy floating around the internet , i think i have the article your talking about , i just don't pay attention to names. like i said i'm sure the guy is great simply based on the responces i'm getting , that kind of loyalty can't be faked :)

o.k. think that about covers everyone , knew i would get myself introuble again hahahahaha......

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Ernie

edmund
thanks for getting back to me , that was a po pai clip application from the dummy form , that whole section on the dummy is about pushing so you definitly woild hate it:D
if you want to see something a little more balistic just let me know i can hook you up with a longer clip is a lot more fist in the face type stuff.


Actually a shorter clip would be good if you have it. That one took a long time to download IIRC. I'm on a 56k modem.

I don't actually need to see someone punched in the face to be impressed to be honest. But it is more that I definitely don't get impressed by someone pushed.

The standing on scales is even less impressive frankly.
Like you, I'd rather see something a bit less compliant and set up.

For the Conference VCD that would be harder to do, I think. A live demo is easier with something a bit contrived to avoid mishaps.

[Miles Teg]

Well Im always a little dubious of inch punch type demonstrations done on real people. In some Ive seen, I swear the receiver has actually started jumping back before getting hit.

But I guess when it comes to demostrations nothing can beat the Ling Ting multi kick on multi opponent technique. You know the one on the video where he takes out 5 people by just kicking each one once. Truely inspiring!

[yuanfen]

IMO/FWIW-
good wing chun in it's details is not easy to demo. on videos....
quite apart from the issue of whether so and so knows good wing chun.

Hands on demo. to individuals of small little things by very competent people sometimes are not even recognized by third party observers with little or moderate knowledge of wing chun
viewing videos from their arm chairs..

Real tests are possible too- but apart from whther its worth it-real tests are not sporting events and duelling has its criminal and civil law consequences.

TST toured Canada and the US with WSL in the 80s. His hands can move fast. His bong sao demo. shows his ability to realign
his structure. It is not intended as a demo of footwork or fighting.

Try holding off a powerful person witha bong sao without tensing up- to understand TST's skill in that little demo.
Context, context. context. There are limits to everything..

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Well Im always a little dubious of inch punch type demonstrations done on real people. In some Ive seen, I swear the receiver has actually started jumping back before getting hit.


Agreed. I don't like those demos either.



Originally posted by yuanfen
Real tests are possible too- but apart from whther its worth it-real tests are not sporting events and duelling has its criminal and civil law consequences.
...
Try holding off a powerful person witha bong sao without tensing up- to understand TST's skill in that little demo.
Context, context. context. There are limits to everything..


I understand that the skill was being presented. But the skill itself is something that doesn't do much for me.
Similar to some video of guys trying to pull LT's legs apart while he was in KYM.

Not advocating a fight as a WC demo.

[Ernie]

edmund
sorry it took me so long to get back to you. i've been busy working on my super bong sau so i can use it to change the tires on my car with out a jack , seems a good use for that kind of structure :D
there is a 550k file i can email you , that has a little hand work you can check out but the rest of the stuff would rquire a faster connection speed just pm me with your add. and i'll send it to you

[sel]

there is some articles by master chu here, in case you are interested:

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/Article.HTM
http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article01.htm

[Ernie]

thanks sel
Elbow Force
is a very common trade mark in wsl people never really thought much about it , but we do drills to culitivate and make it explosive , i actually thought it was common among all wing chun , interesting ,

[S.Teebas]

is a very common trade mark in wsl people never really thought much about it , but we do drills to culitivate and make it explosive , i actually thought it was common among all wing chun , interesting ,

I've found working on getting your COG into your elbow (and total body intention into the opponents weak POINT) during the sam pai fut section of the SLT really cultivates power. Power that translates into every motion in WC. This is something that takes patience to realise... and persiverserance to become habit.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Ernie

there is a 550k file i can email you , that has a little hand work you can check out but the rest of the stuff would rquire a faster connection speed just pm me with your add. and i'll send it to you

Thanks for the file Ernie. I liked this one a little more.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
thanks sel
Elbow Force
is a very common trade mark in wsl people never really thought much about it , but we do drills to culitivate and make it explosive , i actually thought it was common among all wing chun , interesting ,

"Jahng dai lik" is one of the fundamentals and keys in our work and practice. In our context it is typically translated as "under elbow energy." At a minimum, the early Hong Kong students seemed to all know about this.

Excellent observations by S. Teebas.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[ntc]

KJ:

Definitely...... the energy in WC moves that pertain to the arm all come from there.... versus using hard, physical strengths. Very basic foundation of WC power generation.... we actually have quite a few drills/exercises that help an individual develop that, some of which I have a feeling that your school/group is already practicing.


Originally posted by kj


"Jahng dai lik" is one of the fundamentals and keys in our work and practice. In our context it is typically translated as "under elbow energy." At a minimum, the early Hong Kong students seemed to all know about this.

Excellent observations by S. Teebas.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo