Triads

[JADE ROSE]

Well I am sure you guys could tell me more so hit me with them.
* Are there specifice styles heard of in different gangs?
* Are there gangs that just utilise kung fu in attacks and not weapons?
* Any stories of fights going down looking like a Jackie Chan movie?

I know you know so share, would make some enjoyable reading.

[David Jamieson]

Are there specifice styles heard of in different gangs?

Yes and No, an individual joining a gang brings with him what he's learned. In the Case of yes, a renegade sifu is teaching his style to the gang members.


Are there gangs that just utilise kung fu in attacks and not weapons?

Kung Fu has weapons. Gangs by nature are cowardly so weapons are almost always used when available.




Any stories of fights going down looking like a Jackie Chan movie?

Plenty! Even in the club I was a member of our Si Gung had a reputation for clearing out the New York triads where I lived when they were harrassing the local business men.

Now, I wasn't there and I haven't heard the whole story of course, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. :)

cheers

[Oso]

Author: Booth

More of a historical look at the triads. Didn't read much about
specific kung fu styles.

Anyone have any other titles? It's pretty interesting reading
although I didn't care for Booth's style of organization within
the book.

Matt

[Sho]

I'm quite sure the Hung Mun societies have/had some connections with the Hung Gar system. It was written somewhere as a side note, probably on a Hung Gar website.

[Stranger]

If you get the The History Channel they have two documentaries on the subject, "Chinatown: Strangers in a Strange Land" (have not seen it) and "Street Gangs: A Secret History" (have seen it, it is good, part of it covers a San Francisco KF gang called the "Joes" and their big gang wars in the 1970's). The gang war with the "Joes" contained gunfights as well as streetfights. Once the gun hit the streets of the US, its usefulness to gangs was never overlooked regardless of cultural heritage concerning firearms and their use. The street gang documentary also covers the gangs of Five Points NYC, the LA and Chicago modern street gangs (Crips, Bloods, Vice Lords, Folk, etc.), and the Mexican Zootsuiters vs. US Navy gangwars of the WW II era. You can usually by the shows on The History Channel website, if you don't see them scheduled fo broadcast in the near future.

[Merryprankster]

Absolutely not. Everybody knows that Martial Arts are primarily for character development and not for fighting. As a consequence, any highly skilled martial artist would never be involved in a triad. Their character is simply too great for that.

The fact is that no great martial artist ever was or ever will be guilty of crimes of any sort, or assisting criminal organizations.

[red5angel]

LOL!@ MP, so what are you trying to say?

Kung Lek -

"Gangs by nature are cowardly so weapons are almost always used when available."

I am not sure I agree with your statement here. Gang memebers do a lot of things I wouldn't consider cowardly. I think even labeling gangs as cowardly is just minimizing the issue. Alot of these guys are dangerous and aren't cowardly. Then you throw them into a crowd of like minded individuals and thats when bad things start to happen.

[Shaolin Master]

There is a fine line between wrong and right. Triads have a purpose, character building is a modern phenomenon. If martial arts were originally to build character then they'd have no development no history. Now in times of peace such statements are made. To concentrate on character is to lose the art sometimes. It is the way to something how to use it is an option.
Kung Fu Moral heroes are found in films in reality they are humans with expertise subject tosimilar influences.

Nowadays, we call ourselves businessmennot triads anymore as we have similar professions
:D

Hakka and Hung Men Quan are popular triad arts. In sydney, choylifut used to have some involvement as did an old vietvodao school. But I'd let my friends be.

cheers,

[Oso]

The book I mentioned described the early triads as community
organizations with a bent for helping those in need.

Even after the turn of the century most of the triads had
more involvement in beneficial activities vs. illegal one.
They probably made more money w/ the illegal activities
and laundered it through the legal one.

Mao, is reported to have been very anti triad and the
Koumantang (sp?) seemed to have been heavily vested in
by the triads. I think Chang Kai Shek(again, sp?) was
reported by Booth to have been a triad leader.

all this is just my foggy memory of the book so pardon any
errors.

It's an interesting topic and my next non fiction read will
probably be about the early beginnings of the Itilian mafia.
I'm sure there is something out there. I'm betting they
have a similar genesis.

[Stranger]

For info on the origins and evolution of the Mafia and social banditry check out Primitve Rebels by Hobsbawm.

For a good book on the origin and evolution of social bandits/Triads, to Red Spears/Triads, to CCP cadres check out Perry's Rebels and Revolutionaries in North China, 1845-1945 .

Both books are good IMHO.

[Merryprankster]

I was kidding. I was being a smart ass. Bunch of people on here seem to think that MA's aren't about fighting, but primarily about character building.

I was using their argument to show how silly it looks in the face of proof that many masters have been involved with gangs and criminal activity.

[Cody]

Thanks for giving me my first good laugh of the day.

good perspective,
Cody

[Oso]

stranger, thanks I'll look for them.

Matt

[guohuen]

I agree with Kung Lek. False bravado and cowardice are the same thing.

[GeneChing]

There's an intrinsic problem with any analysis of triads in kung fu. Usually tong is the term that is translated into triads or gangs. But tong is a general term - in fact many southern KF lineages call themselves tongs. Gangs really is not an appropriate translation. It's more like fraternites, ala the masons, the rosecrucians or the odd fellows. Many were and are very benevolent. Some, like the hung men, were underground revolutionaries - terrorist cells if you want to use the present day vernacular. Others were clearly organized crime. Triads comes from the way the revolutionaries organized themselves - in threes so everyone had two contacts. If one was discovered, they could only reveal two. This organization was adopted by criminals.

[red5angel]

guohuen - I would agree with your statement but I don't agree that just because one is in a gang one can be accused of cowardice or fals bravado. I could agree that in groups a human being is more liekly to do something considered "brave", but thatisn't exclusive to gangs and I don't believe that is necessarily the rule for gangs either.

[Oso]

There's a chinese restaurant in town with the name 'Tong Sing'
I like to imagine that it's a center for Triad activity in the
Western NC Mountains...just to crack myself up.

[Waidan]

Living in So Cal, I've had plenty of contact (both good and bad) with latin gangs, skins, and the odd run in with Crips and Bloods as well. While I'm not a fan of any of these groups, I'd hesitate to classify them broadly as cowardly. I can point to specific groups and say, "those guys lack mustard"...but to just say that gangs - in general- are cowardly would be a big assumption. IMHO a lot of that sort of thinking comes from a lack of exposure (not necessarily a bad thing, in this instance).

[Cody]

I would agree that a gang need not be criminal, though modern usage leans more in that direction.
Basically, it is: an organization of people of similar background, beliefs; a neighborhood club; a fraternal organization; rebels (with constructive or criminal intent); a substitute family for youths in a dysfunctional families in a possibly dysfunctional social structure.
One key is in gang leadership. For this is a political microcosm.
While I am not defending criminal activities which have at their roots domination and greed, I also realize that the word Survival is relevant. A person who feels threatened, or is made to feel that way -- especially during the formative years -- might respond with what he has been told is bravery. Add some hormones to that. How is he to know differently?
It is easy to become like a pack of wild animals, with a hierarchy that aims towards what it will, according to a leader who can amass followers.

Cody

[David Jamieson]

Tongs were not necessarily "gangs".

Tongs were more like associations that some eventually became criminal organizations. chinese criminal organizations are popularly referred today as "Triads", even though Tongs still exist.

A tong would be akin to any other group with a common goal. Generally a positive goal. Something like Kiwanis, or oddfellows, or some such civilian organization.

Red 5, I disagree. In my experience, I have not met a "gang" member who isn't a coward at the core of it. Be he in a street gang, motorcyle gang, the klan, etc.

It is semantics though. If a group bonds to do good, then they are deemed an "organization" or an "assoiciation" et al.

If a group bonds to do evil, they are deemed a gang. In my opinion, people that are drawn together to do evil are at their core, Cowards and ne'erdowells.

I have 0 respect for these groups. In fact, I have 0 respect for anyone that uses others to further their personal agenda if it is not for the good of the many. That blankets a lot of people who I have no respect for I guess, but I'm sure they don't care much for me either :D

so be it, at least I sleep well at night, without fear or regret.

peace

[Arhat of Fury]

Kung,
Its a good thing you are not in corporate America, you wouldnt like anybody.

[red5angel]

Kung Lek, no disrespect, but I think you might be confusing your dislike for gangs as a general translation to cowardice.

For example I have heard many people talk about terrorist as cowards, but it takes a special brand of bravery to strap a bomb to yourself and set it off, or fly a plane into a building knowing you will die.

I have met a few gang members on both sides. Some are tough mofos as brave as any outstanding or "good" citizen I have met, others not so brave.
To me, evil doesn't equate to coward. You can be evil and be "brave" or "cowardly".

Also speaking of doing "good" for the good of the many. Many gangs have "policies" and many gang mebers hold beliefs that are "good" for the gang they belong too.

[HopGar]

from my own research on my style of martial art, I found that Hop Gar Kung Fu was pretty famous in the 1960's in the Gang Wars in San Fran. My Sigung, Ng Yim Ming, was killed in those wars. I don't know much else.

Peace Y'all

[Cody]

In the broadest sense of the word, which is stated in Webster's New World Dictionary, an association can be considered a gang, without consideration of its purpose.
"3 a very large number of persons or things"
So, while the Tongs were not necessarily criminal gangs, gangs they were, according to this additional definition.

Also, in terms of juvenile gangs, I have heard a distinction made between gangs (of a simple social bonding nature), and those which are not benign, "criminal gangs," in a court room. I saw it in writing as well, but have no copy.

While the word "gang" is generally a negative label, there is a neutral definition which enriches the language.

Cody

[Laconic_Dave]

An informative article, with links, if you're interested.

http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/triads/page1.html

[David Jamieson]

Its a good thing you are not in corporate America, you wouldnt like anybody.

hahahahaha, I worked for the man for years and I didn't like it at all!

I now run my own business and I answer to no one except for myself...and my wife :D. The clients I have get their deliverables of course and all is well, but when I wanna walk, I walk. And it's GREAT!!!!! Beats the hell out of working for the man.

You'll never self actualize working for someone else, and you'll never self actualize being tied to a "gang". Be true to yourself first and everything else will fall in place.

cheers

Red5- I know where you're coming from, but in the greater scheme of things, Gangs are fearful and cowardly. It's why they "gang" together in the first place. without the gang they have 0 power as individuals. But again, it is semantics and the term gang, yakuza, triad, mafia etc etc has a negative conotation to it and they are generally the ones selling dope to our kids and pimping our sisters and daughters and beating down the weak in our societies. Ergo they are not to be held in the light of goodness in my books :)

[Arhat of Fury]

My icons arent working, but big smiley face.

I hear you kung, Im trying to pave the same path.
Smiley

Peace

[LEGEND]

LOL. Perdominantly asian gangs are using weapons. I use to hang with the TRG gang in Falls Church, VA. All I can say is that we're PHYSICALLY challenged compared to the white, blacks and hispanic gangs. So they prefer to use weapons( guns and knives ). I do agree with KUNG LEK though. Gang members will fight in packs when the odds are in their favor...however, when a few cops show up...they'll be on the ground with hands on their backs asap! You get any of them in a one on one enviornment...u'll see the FEAR in his eyes.

[guohuen]

People don't join gangs because they enjoy each others sparkling personalities.(sociopathic/antisocial). They join gangs because they are afraid. Aggression and wussiness are two sides of the coin that reads cowardice.

[Serpent]

If only there was a community centre where they could play pool and hang with each other. That would save them from the streets. You know, somewhere where smoking and drinking aren't allowed, where responsible adults keep a tight reign on the language they use and where everybody is home again and tucked up in bed by 10pm.

































:mad: :rolleyes:

[diego]

Originally posted by red5angel


For example I have heard many people talk about terrorist as cowards, but it takes a special brand of bravery to strap a bomb to yourself and set it off, or fly a plane into a building knowing you will die.



red, i have to disagree with this comment...only because i have heard people say this before...such as talking about mohamed atta had courage to fly the plane into the wtt...no he wasnt brave he was osamas b*tch and liked the taste of his **** "censored, for those not 21 and over"...Head!.

however, obviously strapping dynamite to kill your villages oppressor is brave...but in attas case he was osamas brainwashed toy!.
:)

[red5angel]

diego, I am not sure I understand what the difference is? So what if he works for osama bin laden? The fact is he sat in teh ****pit of an airplane and then as soon as he got it turned towards the right building, turned the speed up and rode it all the way home. Think what you like but the guy had bigger balls then most people will ever come close to.

I don't buy that gangs, 'gang' up for the sole reason that they are cowards. We are ALL guilty of showing more bravery when the odds are in our favor. You live in a gang culture of course you need support, because there is another gang out there who doesn't have a problem beating your a$$ in groups.
I'm not even saying that there aren't cowardly gangsters, or that some gangsters take up the life becase they are cowards. What I am saying is that your fooling yourself if you think all gangsters are cowards. I don't know where you guys live but I have met a few hard guys in gangs around here, and the Twin Cities aren't exactly known for the gang culture.
If you want to get technical, really most gangsters have chosen to live a harder life then most of us. They face all sorts of dangerous situations and constantly expose themselves to all sorts of things.
Are soldiers cowardly because they give up in the face of greater enemies?
Would you be a coward for backing out of a match where the guy is so much better then you there is no point in fighting it?

Like I said, sounds more like belittling something you don't approve of then really taking a look at it. I don't mean any disrespect Kung Lek, but there are often cultures or way sof life people will look down upon. Making it seem smaller makes us feel less threatened. While I wouldn't say all gang members are mean ****ers, I can say I have met enough and seen enough just in daily living to know not all of them are cowards.
I'm in no way condoning the behaviour either, so don't get me wrong, I just think labeling people like this as "cowardly" is inaccurate.

[red5angel]

I don't think that is necessarily the point though. Many people who practices religion believe that they will be recieved intol a much better place right? Yet I don't see them dying in droves for there beliefs. Most people don't have what it takes to make that sacrifice, no matter what the reward is supposed to be.

[shinwa]

The guy was a coward, he did what he did due to an emotional overload. Him and those of his ilk are afraid to live in a world that doesn't match up with their ideals. They fear reality so they shun it or die trying to get rid of it. He didn't value his life or those who he slaughtered, that doesnt make him brave by any stretch of the imagination. It means hes too much of a coward to live in a world where views differ. That's all.

[red5angel]

shinwa, your going to have to try harder then that. Lets take all the emotional content out of what you are saying and refocus for a second.
Fear Reality? What makes you come to that conclusion?

[red5angel]

ghthomason- uh ok, but that isn't what we are discussing. I know WHY they did what they did, and everyone knows religion is the reason many have died in history, as well as race, culture and many other things, but that isn't what we are discussing. What I said was that no matter what his excuse may be, what he did isn't the act of a coward. That takes nerves of steel to hijack a plane and then fly it into a building, regardless of whether it is right or worng or why he did it.

[shinwa]

Originally posted by red5angel
shinwa, your going to have to try harder then that. Lets take all the emotional content out of what you are saying and refocus for a second.
Fear Reality? What makes you come to that conclusion?

Reality? Terroist are people who kill because people aren't doing what the terroist wants them to do. Especially religious terroist who'd kill you/terroize you because you hold different views than they do on spiritual things. They'd place you in this category of "evil", and that enrages them, because they fear being overrun by "evil". So rather than accept the basic reality that everyone on this stinkin planet has a free will and the right to believe in whatever God/doctrine they want to believe in. Terroist believe that THEIR way is right to the point of blowing you up/slayingyou because your belief in something else threatens their view of life. So that's basically a fear of the world, fear of reality. Reality being a world where everyone doesn't believe in teh same **** thing.

Kinda like how some Christian groups burn books. That's pure fear.

[red5angel]

hmmm, it's an interesting point but one I think is on a different scale. Just like gangs, one religiously minded person may fear the world around them, but I do not believe that all religiously minded people fear the world.
I am not totally convinced that most terrorist attacks are striking out at "heathens" so much as politically driven with religion as the fuel. Some terrorist do what they do so that they can retain the freedom to believe what they want by the way, it's not always molding the rest of the world that is their motivation.

Regardless, that still doesn't show that terrorist acts are acts of cowardess.....

[shinwa]

Honestly, how brave do you have to be to commit suicide? How much courage does it take to kill innocent unarmed people? Is that courage or the result of them being dropped on their head too many times as babies?:confused:

Of course they are heroes to their cause, as illogical as that is. Even still, reality tells me that a few crazy dudes killed a bunch of unarmed unsuspecting buisnessmen and buisnesswomen. That throws any idea that what they did was an act of bravery right out of the window. It does for me anyway.

[red5angel]

shinwa, you have to be a strong man to kill anybody, whether they are armed or not. Killing yourself, well, short of psychological issues that may exist, that may take even more willpower, to go to undiscovered country, death, the great unknown.

Here is the Merriam Websters definition of Coward:

Main Entry: cow·ard
Pronunciation: 'kau(-&)rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French coart, from coe tail, from Latin cauda
Date: 13th century
: one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity
- coward adjective

Would you say that these men showed timidity or fear in their actions? You might wat to label their acts "cowardly" or say that what they did was out of fear but I don't believe so. They see themselves as soldiers in a war. I was asoldier and I wa sin a war. I felt fear but I was not cowardly.

gthomason - and?

[shinwa]

one who shows disgraceful fear

There actions were pretty disgraceful. They didn't attack a military, they attacked buisness people! What kind of war is that? :confused:

You don't have to be a strong to kill. Not in all cases. In some you have to be a self serving ******* who would rather kill a woman for her cash then get a job, in others you have to be a fearful ***** who would rather shoot a guy then get punched in the nose and lose a fight.

The only time you have to be strong to kill is when you're doing it to survive.

[red5angel]

too selective shinwa, the definition is disgraceful fear, and fear is the operating word here.
War is fought on a lot of fronts......

[shinwa]

Saying someone is brave for dying in an unannounced war aginast civillians is like saying that the 285 pound dave is brave for kicking his 90 pound son in the head because he knows it's something he'd get in trouble for ig caught.

[red5angel]

no actually it's not the same thing. I am not talking about the overall act but the recquired establishment of will over fear these men had to have to perform these acts. You are looking at it from a good vs bad perspective. I didn't say I believe that these men did the right thing by any means, all I am saying is that what they did took an uncommon act of bravery. However bravery is often used to describe acts done by so-called heroes. If you helps you put it into perspective, thos emen are considered heroes in some parts of the world.

[shinwa]

I know their considered heroes in their circles, but their is a difference between bravery and being a fool. Bravery is something you have when facing danger, these guys weren't facing danger, they were doing exactlyw hat they wanted to do by committing suicide and mass murder in one blow. That's being a fool.

[red5angel]

"Bravery is something you have when facing danger, these guys weren't facing danger, they were doing exactly hat they wanted to do by committing suicide and mass murder in one blow. That's being a fool."

I would also call one brave if they were facing death at the end of their mission but they chose ot do it anyway, regardless of their beliefs. It's not always about danger, but someitme sbaout uncertainty.

Would you be considered brave if you were in a the house and heard a noise an dthen went to check it out? Some people would say you were because you were willing to face the unknown and the consequences of your actions.

I was posted to a security detail on an engineering unit that had the job of clearing mines from a minefield. One team went througha nd deactivated the mines, one team went through and collected them. The team deactivating missed one about half way through this particular field and when the team collecting them put it in the trailer, it went off and consequently set off several other of the explosive devices on board, killing that entire team including the driver of the towing vehicle.
Some would say being a combat engineer is foolish, but they would be wrong, having combat engineers is necessary and so I call those men brave.

[GeneChing]

Both "terrorist" and "gang" are powerful words in the American vernacular right now. Any dictionary defintion no longer applies. Recent events, current political diatribes and the media has distorted these words so that they illicit a knee-jerk reaction in all of us.

Don't be fooled.

Terrorists and gang members are reacting against social/political pressures. Those very same pressures seek to objectify them to turn the public against them. But the real question here is why they exist. What are they reacting against? The easy answer is that they are all just a group of psychos. The hard answer is that something is dreadfully wrong with the present government and this is their only means of response. That does not justify terrorist/gang crime, but it refocuses our response to looking at the source, not the symptom. Today we honor rebels, not just ancient "support the Ming, destroy the Qing" ancestors, but the founding fathers of the U.S.A. Sometimes, rebellion is appropriate. But you can't stop and wonder if the Qing reaction, or the reaction of England during the American revolution, wasn't exactly the same as our reaction to terrorism and gangs.

Remember the words of John Belushi (as a Killer Bee) "It's not a gang, it's a club."

[red5angel]

"but these guys felt they were not sacrificing anything, so I cannot call what they did brave or courageous"

I don't believe that, whatever they believe is on the other side waiting for them life as you live it now is the only certain thing and human beings tend to be fearful of those things they do not know for sure.
I'm am not convinced that giving up their lives was not looked at as a sacrifice, or that it didn't cause them some amount of fear. It may have helped comfort them, their beliefs.
Bad guys are not I can't help comparing them to soldiers. soldiers agree to die for what they believe or atleast the country they believe in. there are different motivations for why one would choose to give up his own life. Often for the greater good, or to save the life of a buddy, sometimes out of disregard for his or her own life. Those things all drive us and somethings will drive us to greater lengths then others.

ghthomason pointed out that it is about perception and I believe that to be true. A man who gives up his life to save anothers is not only brave but in my mind a hero. One does not have to be a hero however for one to be brave.

Gene, good point, and again it just goes to show that often times it is a matter of perception.

[Cody]

I tend to agree with what you have written.

I would like to ask you something. Can you give me clear examples of what you would describe as cowardice? I would like to hear what you have to say on this, for the purpose of learning something. And, to bring about a more centralized focus.

I find it a difficult concept to understand. Any person has limits. Fear is one thing. Fear of loss, for instance. Yet, a person might not be physically capable of withstanding something. Death doesn't come so fast always, and it is a proven fact that pain tolerance is a highly individual quality. So, it's not just the fear (which can be overcome in the brave), but a real limitation, and an unwillingness to go beyond it. It's a decision. To go beyond it for that person would be an act of heroism. For another, it would be an act of bravery, with heroic implications due to, let's say, circumstances. Does one become cowardly due to not having the capacity to do the heroic (for him), but having a certain degree of bravery? I'm NOT talking about terrorists here. Maybe I am talking about what can happen in war, where there are no rules. What is cowardice to you in terms of the paradigm I've given?
I know I'm opening up a can of worms. and, I know only as much as I write. I have doubts. There seems to be a lot more that go into acts of extraordinary courage (which I think we agree on), and that which would drive the ability to face these things, other than courage.
The overcoming of fear. If one is numbed by mental programming or training, to be able to withstand the extraordinary, then at the final moment it might not be a question of bravery alone.


We both agree that some of what is being discussed in this thread is on a judgmental level which might cloud other issues. Even if the the will of a person or group has lost much of what might be regarded as healthy independence (the ability and opportunity to decide with less bias than is available in the social setting, for instance), yet the person overcomes personal fear of harm to accomplish something. If it's not for survival of one's self, it can be for the survival of an idea or others in the group who will carry that idea. It would seem that one way of determining the validity of said bravery, would be realizing whether one agrees with the premise of that person or group's necessity for survival according to their standards. I agree that this is a shaky basis at best. I am NOT condoning terrorism, or criminal gang activity, but neither will I say that each person participating is necessarily a coward.

I would appreciate your feedback. um, and what would you define as "disgraceful fear"? Central questions would be to whom does it bring disgrace, and why? It's a loaded phrase. You get my drift.

thanks,
Cody

p.s.: I wrote this before reading your last post, in which one issue was addressed. Keeping my post as is. less complicated that way. lol

[red5angel]

cowardice as it relates to my life experience. First of all I wuld like to say that in general, cowardice is a state where you allow fear to control your decisions. For instance, Cowardice could be something as small as, not climbing a ladder for fear of heights or falling. On the other end of the scale, lets say abandoning a post or key position out of fear for your own life
The issue I see is that some people apply bravery and cowardice to good and bad. In the case of my examples above they could be either. If climbing the ladder isn't important and may risk your life, then why do it? however leaving your post could get people killed in the short and long term.
bravery does not necesarily equal heroic to me. I pat you on the back for overcoming your fear of heights and climbing the ladder but you weren't heroic. However, holding your position, even under the risk of death is heroic.
I think bravery can stand regardless of whether you agree with someones motivation or not, because while motivation might stir one on to bravery, bravery itself is not defined by specific motivation, if that makes sense?

Did I already define disgracefull fear?

[NorthernShaolin]

In returing to the original posted question, I agree with Shaolin Master and Hop Gar. Today, the real Triad members are business men and are involved in a higher level of criminal activity and are currently hidden behind some of the usual high profile crime scenes. The street crimes involving Mom and Pop stores are now small stuff. Police involved in todays Chinese gang wars are noway related to the Triads or Tongs. These are small time street gangs with no plans, direction or big money.

The Triads have invested in large companies that are legal and the once observable foot soldiers of the past (meaning people with kung fu knowledge) are no longer needed in large numbers.

Back in the 1960's before the Triads started to branch out and reach out for the bigger pots of monies, they still want to control many of the small Mon and Pop stores in Chinatown and would hire foot soldiers off the street or go to the local kung fu schools to recuit.

In San Francisco, many of the Chinese came from Canton area in China, where Hop Gar style was known to be associated with gang associations. During the 1960-70's in SF, many of the foot soliders hired by the triads were associated with the Hop Gar style. But the members in the triads on the higher part of the ladder who were never in the front lines did not really need to know any kung fu because they had all the power, money and guns. They walked around in business suits with their weapons hidden in their vest, directing from the distance, while the poor foot soldiers did all the dirty work, kicking over tables, knocking heads in with their fist, smashing store front windows, etc. If the Police came, they walk away as if nothing happen because they appeared to be well-respected citizens of the community.

It wasn't until the early 1970's when heavy pressure by the local police and community that the poor foot soliders started to talk about who are in the triads and what kind of business are they into. The triads members in the higher levels were not stupid and never let the foot soldiers have full knowledge of their real business. So the foot soldiers did not know enough to spill all the beans and what they said was only what the Police already knew or suspected. After some of these incidents, the triads realize the small stuff was not worth their time and move onto bigger, more profits and unobservable crimes.

[JADE ROSE]

Excellent background history there NorthernShaolin.

I don't want to give terrorists the time of day to discuss them especially on this thread as if they have people talking aout their feats they are achieving what they set out to to do 'Cause Terror'.

I have heard Hop Gar mentioned a couple of times in this thread as being a popular style with the gangs now in a search to see what this style looks like and why this would be preffered than others. Unless that was the main style of that day?

Shaolin Master you seem to be holding out a bit on the Sydney gangs tell us more, different places, different names, different centuries of course.

[diego]

Interesting replies you guys: Red, i believe if osama flew the plane in his fight agianst bush, that may have a few signs of bravery "however stupid, as if osama really cared about the muslim nations, he would make all the sultans and kings spread the the wealth...they treat thier peeps worse then americans treat thier poor!." So, atta wasnt brave he was brainwashed...you mentionj it takes nerves of steel to kill...or it can take angeldust in the bloodstream...or the sensual voice of your spiritual prophet who fucd u in the a$$ so many times, his ideologys became your internal conscious...So, basically all of osamas promises and just the way he talked to his BOYS, for thier mission that voice was like... instead of breathing oxygen...each breath was like a hit of pcp "wich ive never done, thankfully...but you get the resemblance."

if osama was real, he would unite the muslim nations into a strong political party, instead of running his little gangs....hes power hungry and not starving for peace...a psycho infatuated with a women who stalks her, doesnt have nerves of steel, he has jumbeled nerves...so thier is a differance between nerves of steel-righteous wrath...and a dog bieng kicked so much it finnally lashed out...thing is noone was kicking osama or atta...if they went on towelhead-cnn and gave facts how zionist policy is mucking the muslim world, then presented that to the un...through time and redtape they would make changes...instead i see osama like a leader of organized crime...power hungry...and his socalled soldiers were really prostitutes bringing in more busines and moneys....Airtime on the news and new recruits, for osama to stick his *****s into!.

So, how was atta brave


now those vietnamese monks who doused themself in petrol in retalition to the christians a few decades orso ago...THATS HELLA BRAVE


atta was drug"osamas-dik"induced actions!.

Agree or nay?
:cool:

[Cody]

I'm feeling uncertain and it bothers me. Cowardice is a highly negative concept. And, in fact, there might be more than one kind, even in the extreme situations. You are giving degrees in terms of the serious of the situation, and that is reasonable. I am trying to add conscious and unconscious psychological history. Maybe what I'm saying is that one's actions might appear cowardly, while the inner dynamics are quite different from one person to another. Then what do we have? I see variations on the theme, but am not able put it together as well as I would like. And, this is a first attempt on this topic.

I will go back to your definition: "First of all I would like to say that in general, cowardice is a state where you allow fear to control your decisions." I like your examples. I don't think you have defined "disgraceful fear," but in discussing levels of cowardice you have shown that it is not always disgraceful. The ladder incident, as a small example. Do you see what I'm uneasy with?

Part of what confuses me as well, has to do with the act of deciding. I put forward that there might not always a decision as such. Your view is based on up front conscious experience of fear and decision making. That is sometimes a luxury. In a sense the decision could have been made a long time ago re situations with certain parameters. Depending on the circumstances, a decision to reverse that response might entail overcoming "emotional reflexes" which have many layers, and there is no time or ability to peel the onion, so to speak.
Also one might be able to conquer the fear, but what good is that if you are doomed to failure in a task because of inadequate preparation, skills, or what have you? and you know it. I'm referring to important, crucial, situations. In fact, bravery might be foolhardy at times. And, being unwilling to risk when one has the skill might be a truer indication of cowardice.

I think there is a great deal of shame associated with both visible and concealed fear. The disgrace can be defined by the standards of others. One definition of cowardice is "shamefully excessive fear of danger, difficulty, or suffering." Here the shame is coming from the Excess of fear.
an example of uncertainty as to when the fear is excessive. Some might have a cause or faith, and not see death as the same kind of threat as others. To face death, even so, is still an act of bravery in my view, but it's not the same. If you think this life is the one and only and nothing but oblivion comes after, that is not the same as someone who is willing to accept the possibility of other lifetimes either.

It seems to me that that are other factors involved in bravery: good sense, faith, altruism, etc. Hence, I am finding your examples valid and well thought out, but missing something that I'd like addressed. Only I'm not sure how. It has to do with the state or condition of the self in its totality when making either a conscious decision, or automatically following that which has become ingrained in the self via experience. That's part of it.

Thank you for reading this. There is some lack of clarity and the thoughts are a little scattered. I keep hitting walls and turning corners. That's how it felt.

Cody

[TaoBoxer]

I have been told that here in boston, Bak Mei is favored by certain elements.

In the Boxer Rebellion, the I Ho Chuan practiced Shen Chuan. I'm not sure this was a specific style really..... more like acrobatics and qigong designed to recruit more soldiers.

The "security" agencies run by people like Li Tsun I often practiced Hsing I.

It seems like the Southern styles are more heavily associated with the Tong, but that's just an observation....

Hope it helps.

[LEGEND]

With the talk of TERRORISM, I'm curious for the opinion on COUNTER TERRORISM POLICY. I'm taking a class at GMU...terrorism and we have to come up with a policy to counter it. Sadly, I think I came up with most NASTY plan. Well so far with WESTERN gov. the only policy that we KNOW of it is COUNTER TERRORISM based on gathering INTELLIGENCE. You know...finding someone who is connected to the group and paying him lump sum of money to give us information. I was wondering if a policy of TERRORISM to terrorist would mean anything. Would u up the streaks to kill the terrorist family after they commit the act??? Would this DETER a terrorist from killing himself along with other civilians by saying if u do commit terrorist act than u're whole family( innocent or not ) will be killed??? I don't know if WESTERN society would consider such an act. TERRORISM for TERRORISM act. With drug dealers I know that the gov. hurt them by taking away their assets. With terrorists the only thing I can see is to take away what they care about. I know they don't care about their well being but what about those of their families??? Just curious.

[FatherDog]

It is a mistake to generalize qualities to any group of people.

People who belong to gangs are not automatically cowardly. Gangs are not ****genous; Hells Angels are different from Pagans are different from Latin Kings are different from Crips are different from Bloods are different from Triads. Individuals are not ****genous, either. Some may join a gang because they are cowardly and seek safety in numbers, some might join because they are childhood friends with other gang members, or because they agree with that gang's aims, or because they desire power and believe they can control the gang by force of will or arms. They are not all cowards. They are not all anything. They are differing individuals.

Also, do not make the mistake of assuming that because a group is not admirable that they cannot possess admirable qualities. To believe that Al-Queda members are not at all admirable people is entirely reasonable. To believe that men who deliberately sacrificed their lives for their cause, in a difficult, dangerous, and painful manner, are cowards, is not reasonable at all.

[buddhapalm]

On the side-tracked subject of Courage, Bravery, Heroism and Cowardice.

A regular fighter (Triad, Soldier, Terrorist) can be brave when he has nothing to lose. The most fighters are recruited from groups of people who have nothing to lose. The poor, the ignorant, the naive, the weak willed and those with low self esteem. They are offered promises of gain, glory, riches, pleasure and power. They should be thankful if they make it through the day. They become numb and indifferent to risk and destruction. They are instruments of the cause. Dispensable.

To me the definition of courage is the ability to sacrifice something of value. Ranging from the smallest thing to one's very own life.

Bravery to me is more specifically the ability to sacrifice ones life or put oneself in danger in the name of a cause or belief.

Heroism is the ability to sacrifice ones own life in the name of a cause, or for the benefit of a group.

Cowardice is the reluctance to put oneself in harm's way when requested by the group you are in.

A hero sacrifices for the group and gains the glory of the group.

A coward refuses to sacrifice for the group and garners the disdain of the group.

In my view, it depends again on perspective. Do you support a group, or do you support yourself, or do you support both to a point.

What we WANT to support is tied to what we desire.

What we MUST support is tied to how much power we have, versus the power of the group demanding your support.

For example, try not paying tax.

I believe anything can have infinite labels derived from infinite viewpoints. A coward may not fight, but be labeled a hero by his family because he comes home every day to feed his family. A hero may save a nation, but in death fail to carry on the family line.

It is like Yin and Yang, two sides of a coin. You cannot have one without at the same time having another. Nothing is clean cut unless you realise this. Confusion to me lies in looking at things from one viewpoint only, not accepting the view of others.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[joedoe]

Originally posted by buddhapalm
...
Heroism is the ability to sacrifice ones own life in the name of a cause, or for the benefit of a group.
...


So do you agree with the way the people who died in the 911 attacks were labelled 'heroes'?

[Laughing Cow]

Here are a few diffrent viewpoints.

There is a big diference between the Mafia (European) and the Triads/Yakuza (Asian).

Triads and yakuza are more business based organisations that support each others members. Yes, they are involved in shady and illegal deals, but on a different scale than their western equivalent.

Many "warriors & fighters" joined the Triads & Yakuza when they couldn't earn their living as being a "fighter or hire" due to political and social changes.

As for Gang members being cowards or not. Yes, there are some and than there are some that are not. I think it depends more on the type of gang than on the person, each type will attract similar minded people.

Most of them are misguided, but not neccessarily cowards.

As for heroes and cowards in fights and simialr.
The 9/11 victims were not heroes but victims. The attackers showed enough resolve and guts to go through with it. Something that a lot of other people would lack.

Question:
Is a fire-fighter a "hero" for doing what he is trained for?

Were the Japanese Kamikaze Pilots Heroes or cowards. Many were cowards that 's why their planes only carried enough fuel to get them to their target and why many boarded their planes dead-drunk.
Even if they had gotten back they would have been killed on the spot as from the minute they got their orders they were classified as "KIA".
Either way those Pilots were destined to die, and in such a desperate situation you will do as much damage as possible out of pure frustration.

Just some thoughts.

[buddhapalm]

JoeDoe,

<So do you agree with the way the people who died in the 911 attacks were labelled 'heroes'?>

Which people ? The terrorists, or the people in the Twin Towers. I am assuming you mean the people in the Twin Towers. I personally would label them as unfortunate victims of an insane plot. Simply innocent victims. Thats my take on it.

Laughing Cow,

<The attackers showed enough resolve and guts to go through with it. Something that a lot of other people would lack.>

They had nothing to lose, but the promise of virgins in heaven waiting for them when they died. Poor misguided fools. Again my take.

<Question:
Is a fire-fighter a "hero" for doing what he is trained for?>

He is a hero if people call him a hero. I don't think training has much to do with it. Maybe it made him become a trained hero.

<Many "warriors & fighters" joined the Triads & Yakuza when they couldn't earn their living as being a "fighter or hire" due to political and social changes.>

Modern Triads are different from older Triads. Different goals, different caliber. The older goal was that of mutual benefit for members and revolutionary goals. Newer goals are power, money, respect at any cost.

Honestly, what would you do if you had the power of lawyers, police chiefs, politicians and 20,000 "boys" at your disposal ?

:-)))) It would be a hard call.

Again just my take on it.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[joedoe]

Originally posted by buddhapalm
JoeDoe,

<So do you agree with the way the people who died in the 911 attacks were labelled 'heroes'?>

Which people ? The terrorists, or the people in the Twin Towers. I am assuming you mean the people in the Twin Towers. I personally would label them as unfortunate victims of an insane plot. Simply innocent victims. Thats my take on it.

...

Cool. I was just wondering because people were referring to the victims as 'heroes' and I thought 'wrong'.

[cha kuen]

I heard that the triads of Hong Kong mostly learned choy lay fut while the bus drivers and police officers learned wing chun. I think it was just a thing back in the days. Triads would recruit from kung fu schools and it happened to be CLF schools.

**kung fu books** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&)

[Serpent]

No wonder the Triads rule Hong Kong! ;)

[NorthernShaolin]

Also heard that the triads controls the HK movie companies too.

[Serpent]

Dude, wherever there is a Chinatown, there are Triads. Wherever there is a Chinese industry, there is some kind of Triad involvment.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by LEGEND
With the talk of TERRORISM, I'm curious for the opinion on COUNTER TERRORISM POLICY. I'm taking a class at GMU...terrorism and we have to come up with a policy to counter it. Sadly, I think I came up with most NASTY plan. Well so far with WESTERN gov. the only policy that we KNOW of it is COUNTER TERRORISM based on gathering INTELLIGENCE. You know...finding someone who is connected to the group and paying him lump sum of money to give us information. I was wondering if a policy of TERRORISM to terrorist would mean anything. Would u up the streaks to kill the terrorist family after they commit the act??? Would this DETER a terrorist from killing himself along with other civilians by saying if u do commit terrorist act than u're whole family( innocent or not ) will be killed??? I don't know if WESTERN society would consider such an act. TERRORISM for TERRORISM act. With drug dealers I know that the gov. hurt them by taking away their assets. With terrorists the only thing I can see is to take away what they care about. I know they don't care about their well being but what about those of their families??? Just curious.

Well, that kinda makes us no better than them.

With Islamic terrorists you can threaten them through their religion; the whole burial in a pigskin thing. However, that might not bother them anyway and is a pretty narrow view because there are far more terrorists than just Islamic ones.

The only real counterterrorism is to find out the root of why these people are driven to such extreme lengths and correct the problem. Constantly treating the symptoms is such a western perspective.

[buddhapalm]

What Kung Fu styles did enforcers of the "United Bamboo", "Green Gang", "Hung Moon", and "Tien Dey Wui" etc practice. ?

Every region has its people, every people has its group, every group has its fighters, every fighter has his style/weapon. I dont think we can pinpoint any one style. Hong Kong is just one corner of the Four Sea's.

Enforcers are really the police of the alternative world of the underworld. An underworld of myriad interconnections, ideals and components. Kung Fu is but one small component of that world, just as it is in the world of regular society.

Regarding what styles of Kung Fu they practiced, to really find out the truth, one better light some incense to Guan Di and follow the road. Other than that, it is hard to say.

Business is business, from show business to global business.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[buddhapalm]

One way to destroy a terrorists purpose, is to identify it and nuetralize it.

A terrorist wishes to glorify his cause and inflict terror into the hearts of his foes.

If you can instead bring shame upon him and his cause, then he would have acted for nothing. If, by some unfortunate accident, he destroyed a powerfull ally, sitting in the aeroplane, or building. Then shame would ruin them. Halting further support and confidence in them in their base countries.

What would happen if Arafat or another Arab leader was in a meeting in the attack zone of the terrorists. What would that do for the cause of Al Queda and its image in the Middle East.

Such an unfortunate event would be less complicated than the present scenario.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by buddhapalm
One way to destroy a terrorists purpose, is to identify it and nuetralize it.

A terrorist wishes to glorify his cause and inflict terror into the hearts of his foes.

If you can instead bring shame upon him and his cause, then he would have acted for nothing. If, by some unfortunate accident, he destroyed a powerfull ally, sitting in the aeroplane, or building. Then shame would ruin them. Halting further support and confidence in them in their base countries.

What would happen if Arafat or another Arab leader was in a meeting in the attack zone of the terrorists. What would that do for the cause of Al Queda and its image in the Middle East.


They would consider Arafat (or whoever) a martyr to the cause, now enjoying the fellatio of seventy virgins in heaven.

No offence, but yours is a pretty naive view, I think.

[buddhapalm]

What I meant was that they should be put in a position where they eliminate one of their own leaders (or respected ones)...therebye ruining their image amongst themselves. I doubt that they would relish destroying their own leaders.

It would be an intricate plot, but my point was that if you could basically make fools of them amongst their own people, then they would have no more credibility or purpose.

Destroying their purpose is my intent.

Destroying the root cause of the problem is best, and destroying their credibility (amongst themselves) is perhaps second best. Both techniques require a lot of work. The simplest answer is a team of pinpoint assasins.

Then again, what if we offer the 70 virgins before death, then add 7 more for the bargain. Then they will be at our beck and call.

;-))))

Cheers

[red5angel]

Cody, I can understand where the confusion is, I have a feeling I may not be expressing myself properly. While I agree that your past experience may influence the way you behave I believe th difference between cowardice and bravery might lie only at the moment of choice.
Bravery is overcoming your fears, regardless of their source or your experience, cowardice is roughly the opposite, letting your fears win out. I think part of the confusion lies in the idea that bravery and cowardice are linked somehow to morality. However I believe morality is subjective, much more so then bravery or cowardice. For example, killing someone who breaks into my house could be considered morally questionable by some people in our culture, and with others it might seem an ok decision and well within my right.
However, while you might claim that those who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, might be cowardice, no one can deny that regardless of it's source, that act recquired a certain amount of moxy and strong will to perpetrate.
This whole discussion came up because gangs were being accused of cowardice in general, and I thought that wa sinaccurate because I believe that not only is it a generalization but one I believe is misplaced because those that accuse do not agree with their chosen lifestyle and not really base don any fact.

[GeneChing]

I'm a little put off by the notion that there is tong/triad activity in every Chinatown and that this is viewed so negatively. But let's swap Chinatown for America and triads for Freemasons. Then how does it look?

My understanding of the Patriot act, more fallout from 9/11, is that police can now conduct sneak and peek searches, without warrent, at any time. They can enter your home and search will you are at work or while you are asleep, solely on the grounds of suspicion. Now who are the gangs and why are they bad again?

[NorthernShaolin]

Originally posted by Serpent
Dude, wherever there is a Chinatown, there are Triads. Wherever there is a Chinese industry, there is some kind of Triad involvment.

No offence, but yours is a pretty naive view, I think. (quote the Serpent)

Racism at it's best.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin


No offence, but yours is a pretty naive view, I think. (quote the Serpent)

Racism at it's best.

Not at all. Read Gene's comment above yours. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a fact of life.

Don't call me rascist when you have no idea what you're talking about.

[NorthernShaolin]

Serpent,

Okay, I agree, a cheap shot on my part.

[joedoe]

Serpent is not racist - he hates all races equally :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
Serpent is not racist - he hates all races equally :D

Man, I even hate serpents!

;)

[Oso]

Gene, very well put.

I can let the fact (as far as I know) that every president,
irregardless of party affiliation, is a freemason get to me.

That is the biggest reason I haven't voted in a while...
what's the difference???

[diego]

Originally posted by buddhapalm
What I meant was that they should be put in a position where they eliminate one of their own leaders (or respected ones)...therebye ruining their image amongst themselves. I doubt that they would relish destroying their own leaders.

It would be an intricate plot, but my point was that if you could basically make fools of them amongst their own people, then they would have no more credibility or purpose.

Destroying their purpose is my intent.

Destroying the root cause of the problem is best, and destroying their credibility (amongst themselves) is perhaps second best. Both techniques require a lot of work. The simplest answer is a team of pinpoint assasins.



Yah, kind of like what the cia and cointelpro did to the black panthers and malcolm and martin and all thier other ways of destroying the civil rights movement...Now only if we could prove this!!.:)

[buddhapalm]

Just like Tai Chi I guess, using the opponents force against themselves. Not limited to Tai Chi, but you get my drift. Kill them with their own knife...oops.

Now that wouldnt be killing, it would be assisted suicide, Dr Kavorkian style.

Who said the C I A didnt read Sun Tzu Ping Fa - The Art of War and other strategems of the East.

Buddhapalm

[Merryprankster]

And there have been Aliens autopsied at Area 51,
The Freemasons have an evil design to rule the world,
The Illuminati control education and commerce,
The Protocols of Zion are true, rather than demonstrably fake,

And I was the man on the grassy knoll.

[Oso]

lol @ MP




as far as my comment on the freemasons, I just don't think it's
a coincidence.

personally, I owe a debt to the freemasons. I was electrocuted
and burned as a small child and spent a lot of time in a hospital
supported by them.

but, still...what's the connection?

that was rhetorical of course, this is definitely way OT

[Merryprankster]

Oso, AFAIK, your comment about the Freemasons wasn't quite accurate.

http://www.calodges.org/no406/FAMASONS.HTM

Also suggests that not all presidents were Freemasons.

Of course, there could be a supersecretsquirrel Freemason pre-presidential society complete with decoder ring and secret handshake. :D

But that seems a little less far fetched than, say, the CIA assassinating MLK.

[buddhapalm]

In regards to all things, only those who see things directly, can talk somewhat truthfully about them. There are rumors about Triads to Freemasons, from Area 51 to Atlantis. We discuss what is secret and hidden, but unless we have seen things directly it is only rumor. Sure makes interesting discussion though.

The problem is that whoever knows dark secrets never talk about them. Not in politics, big business or crime. So a lot is simply our conjecture. It does not mean that our rumors are wrong, just not proven.

There is nothoing in this world that would not suprise me, but it has to be directly seen to be directly known...by me

Anyway I am going back to watching my movie...."The Skulls" :-)))

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Oso]

MP, I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere...now I'll have to
figure out where....it may have been back in HS when a buddy
of mine and I got into his grandfather's masonic books. But, we
got caught and chased with a cane, luckily his grandfather was
well past his prime and slow.

anyway, I wasn't totally serious, like I said, owe a debt to them
or I'd be a lot uglier than I am now...13 reconstructive surgeries
at a mason supported hospital.:)


buddhapalm, correct but it's fun to speculate about all the
skeletons in the closet and bogeys in the sky, what else
would we do with our time? train or something?:D

[Cody]

Sorry for the delay. Might be going to China in a matter of days. Came up all of a sudden. Am in the middle of decision making and will decide by Friday based on presence of correct possibilities, and provision of resources for this opportunity.

Anyhow, to get back. Yes, I under stand the tangential nature of what we were discussing. I also think that you have expressed yourself quite well, and we are mostly in agreement.

The "moment." I do think that there can be extenuating circumstances at that moment, as determined by the degree of freedom in the mind to make a choice in one area of life or in many. There are states, other than mental illness, such as the "denial" that can occur within the bounds of normalcy, which can affect the moment. It might be said that one who even unconsciously enters into a state of denial is acting cowardly in not being able to face something sufficiently to deal with it. There might be validity to this. especially at the moment of the mind turning away, and entering denial. This happens very fast, and I've seen that the person can be unaware of process as it occurs or after.

It's not a matter of your lack of expression. It's a pleasure to read what you write. My stuff even gives me a hard time. My perspective is different.

thank you,
Cody

[Arhat of Fury]

On a side note here, there is a good book out called "BTK" Born to Kill, tells how the japanese mafia set up in New York and had problems with the vietnamese and chinese mafias. Good References on the back. It was written by the guy who snitched on them all. I dont have the author yet, my boy is going to hand it off as soon as he is done.

AOF

[Oso]

Arhat, thanks for the book title.

matt

[buddhapalm]

Is the book about American Born Japanese groups, or established Yakuza from Japan ? Sounds interesting.

Ever see that movie by Beat Takeshi, how he takes over the New York narcotics rackets, while on the run from Yakuza Oyabuns in Japan. Good movie.

[Arhat of Fury]

From what i got from my boy, its a mixture of natives and Japanese born. It talks about how the vietnamese move in and kill off peopl without blinking and start extorting money from people that the japanese are working with.

I keep telling him to read faster so I can read it.:D

Never seen that movie, what is the name of it?

AOF

[buddhapalm]

I forgot the name of the movie, but you can rent it at Hollywood video. I will try to find the name.

[TenTigers]

It really depends on who is teaching at the time. Sifus come and go in the triads. For awhile, AnLeong guys did Hung-Ga, and Hip-Sing did Choy Li Fut-because there was a Hung-Ga guy and a ChoyLiFut guy. Although, Poo Yee did Southern Mantis with Hip Sing as well. Chinese freemasons do alot of Southern Praying Mantis, it really all depends on who is working with whom at the time. Right now, I think it's more like buisness and underground nastiness. Usually the wet work is farmed out to other Asian minority groups.

[Oso]

There's a chinese restaurant in town with the name 'Tong Sing'
I like to imagine that it's a center for Triad activity in the
Western NC Mountains...just to crack myself up.


HA !

I heard this news story last week about 2 vietnamese men who
had strongarm robbed a nail studio in Spruce Pine NC (about 30
miles from here) owned by an asian man. They linked the same 2
guys to the beating of a buddhist monk in Charlotte and are
suspicious of a link to organized crime.

I knew this was a hotbed for triad activity.

Time to sharpen the hatchets and choppers !!!!

:D

[joedoe]

Isn't Tong Sing the name of the triad choir? :D

[buddhapalm]

Oso,
Perhaps the brigands were wanting to paint their nails, so when showing the secret hand signal - One Finger Zen/Yat Ji Kuen - they would show their high rank in their secret society. Perhaps the Buddhist monk, they beat up, was mistaken for a member of the opposing Shaolin Sect vying for supremacy of the Gong Wu Rivers and Lakes Society.

I am going to stay clear of Charlotte. I better hide out at the caves in Nine Golden Mountain until it cools down :-)))

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Oso]

well, it is a true news story and it was coincidental.




My hatchets are sharpened and my red turban is clean.
I'm planning on staking out area nail shops and am
seeking vengeance for the monk.

ALL TONGS BEWARE THE BEAR !!!!!

[guohuen]

We used to have a particular Chinese Restaurant in Lebanon NH (replaced with Japanese restaurant) with an absentee owner that was always in HK and a revolving kitchen staff of folks that had like one eye, alot of scars and tatoos everywhere.

[Oso]

They're everywhere, they're everywhere !!!!!!

:D

[buddhapalm]

When working in a restaurant, the chopper is near at hand......

The Ching Dynasty had Red Boats.

Now we have Red Restaurant. Out of sight out of mind.

They dont call the old guy, chopping the duck Uncle Chopper for nothing. And I thought he got his scar on the cheek from being a butcher.

Buddhapalm

[Lews]

I have got to know. Does anyone know what Triads are taught...?

[MasterKiller]

The first rule of being in a Triad is do not talk about the Triad

[Surferdude]

To use butterfly knives.. those things are awesome!!!:D
I want a pair!!!:mad: :D :D

[cho]

I think the regular street thug triads use watermelon knives. Anyone seen Young and Dangerous movies?

[African Tiger]

Ok, a SERIOUS response from someone who was about to go, and didn't BECAUSE of Triad problems...

To my personal knowledge, most of them learn whatever they picked up before they joined the gangs: various family systems, Southern styles (proximity to Hong Kong), etc. There doesn't seem to be a "Triad style", unless it's something that they put together themselves. Of course if that's true, it won't be common knowledge.

But in all honesty they are a gang, so don't go expecting to go toe-to-toe with one of them; should you have a run-in. They are more apt to pull a knife or gun, because ultimately all gang members are cowards.

[David Jamieson]

Triads are criminal organizations.

Occaisionally, some members know Kungfu at some level.
There has been stories of some masters being cajoled into teaching some members Kungfu.

there has also been stories about some masters bringing the Kungfu into the Triad because they are threatened or their families are threatened.

But, like any other criminal organization, triads are pretty much just scum of the earth and do not have a genuine style of Kungfu associated with them in particular. Everything they have is stolen or extorted. I doubt if any active triad members have Kungfu in a sense of mastery.

Besides, it is the age of guns, what use would a criminal org have for hand to hand combat?

cheers

[Judge Pen]

I've heard that the Triads were supposed to be linked to the 5 elders. Anyone else heard this?

[David Jamieson]

It is a mistake to associate the current triads with the Tongs, the family associations, the benevolent associations, freemasons, red door secret societies et al.

The triads are merely into drugs, prostitution, theft and extortion.
They are a corruption of the original Tongs and are no longer part of that. The tongs are organizations which are for the protection of the Chinatowns, restaurants and businesses etc.

Usually, they are the ones who have to face off against the Triads when they try to muscle there way into a community.

cheers

[jmd161]

Yes some Triads deal in illegal activities and such.

But Triad can also mean family,gang,clan,tong, etc.....

My style of Hak Fu Moon was known as the "Black Tiger Clan' in Hong Kong.When my sifu first came to america in 1976 he did a demo in New York City for Grandmaster Wai Hong of Fu Jow Pai.The demo was attended by Triad members from new york,chicago,california,hong kong,and throught the world.Many even tried to get my sifu to teach their members Black Tiger.

It's funny because they did'nt ask my sifu they were telling him that he was going to teach their members Black Tiger.My sifu laughed and said "No" and then walked away.They did'nt know what to do.I'm sure no one had told them to their face no before.


jeff:)

[chen zhen]

I would guess Glock-Fu and Baseball-bat-dao would be the modern styles of the Triads.
Dunno about their past methods.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Surferdude
To use butterfly knives.. those things are awesome!!!:D
I want a pair!!!:mad: :D :D

I want these (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/452067.html)

But had to settle for these (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-69l.html)

[chen zhen]

I'd like some of these (http://therionarms.com/armor/kriss1.jpg)
More cool Kris knives (http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/_uimages/kris-swaasacollagesmallpic.jpg)

[David Jamieson]

I have the first pair you posted philbert

this pair (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/452067.html)

And I have a similar pair to the other one you posted

these (http://davidjamieson.com/kunglek/images/wudipdo.jpg)

the first set is considerably lighter and took a couple of practice sessions to get used to the lesser weight.

cheers

[PHILBERT]

Yeah if I wasn't a starving college student, I'd consider buying a pair of those, only problem is smuggling them into my house. Since Im still living at home, my mom has a tendency to snoop into my business. She doesn't even know about the first pair though. Or all the other stuff I have (other than the training katana and sticks).

[chen zhen]

crazy knives (http://www.clawantlerhide.com/images/knives.gif)
A triad victim..holy f*ck (http://www.forteantimes.com/gallery/images/knives.jpg)
:eek::D
these would be cool triad weapons (http://www.bynoon.com/images/sword47.jpg)

[Taomonkey]

Chen,,
and just what would you do if you had a kris?

[chen zhen]

:p
U could also ask philbert what he would do if he had a butterfly knife. The same answer might come.
else, go to the brutal-thread.;)

No really, I just wanted to post pics of knives that was cooler than butterfly knives, that's all.:(

[neit]

i'd bet that before guns had widespread availabilty triad members were skilled in basic no-nonsense empty hand and small weapons combat. not sure wether you would consider it "kung-fu" but i am sure many of those guys were and still are tough fighters.

[chen zhen]

Who here actually know what the triads are doing nowadays? Do they even exist anymore?

[jmd161]

They're still around today.

They just work a little differently these days.


jeff:)

[chen zhen]

i think i'll search for some info, and post it here later.:)

[jmd161]

I have a story to share it happened to a friend of mine.

My friend is a very nice guy always smiling and willing to help someone.Well he also stands about 6'5" and weighs around 260lbs.He use to work at an club as a bouncer.Well he said that everyday around the sametime this little Chinese guy would walk in and have two beers.Never bothered anyone he would drink his two beers and leave.

Well one day the chinese guy is enjoying his beer in his same seat minding his business.When a lady walks up snatches his cap off his head and runs to the dance floor.Sounds like she wants to have fun right? Well she's dancing with another guy.The chinese guy walks over takes his cap off her head and goes back to finish his beers.Well sure enough she runs back over and swipes the cap again,and runs back to the dance floor with the other guy.The chinese guy goes back and once again takes his cap and walks to his seat.Before he could sit down the women does it again.This time he's a little upset he grabs his cap and gives her a little push.Not anything harsh but to let her know stop it.

Well at that moment another bouncer who had watched the whole thing decided to throw the guy out.This bouncer weighed 330lbs and stood 6'8" tall.My friend tried to tell him not to mess with the guy he does'nt bother anyone.This guy was a Big Redneck who did'nt like anyother race.So he was set on throwing the guy out.

He walks over to the guy and tells him to beat it! get lost!

The chinese guy say's let me finish my beers and i'll leave no problem.The bouncer says No !! you're leaving NOW!! The chinese guy says i did'nt do anything.

Well the guy grabs him by the back of the neck and his pants and throws the chinese guy head first thru a closed door.The guy gets up walks back in and said i'm going to finish my beers then i'll leave.The bouncer could'nt believe his eyes.He said No you're not! He went to grab the chinese guy again and the guy just let lose on the bouncer.My friend said he did'nt know where the chinese guy ended and the bouncer started ,but he was all over that guy.Then all of the sudden the bouncer was out cold on the floor.The chinese guy looked at my friend and said do you have a problem with me finishing my beer's too? My friend said NO!! Infact i'll buy you another one myself. :D

My friend sat down with the guy and said where'd you learn to fight like that?

The guy pulled off his shirt and showed my friend a whole body tattooed front and back.He told my friend he was a member of a Tong.He never had anymore problems at that club anymore.

Just thought it would be nice to share that True! story about a tong member my friend met.

jeff:)

[chen zhen]

Very cool story.;)
thanks for sharing.

btw, I watched a tv documantary once, about the gang-wars in New York in the beginning of the century. They showed at one point a pic of some famous triad leader, he was wearing traditional chinese garments, and there, on the wall behind him, was hanging a pair of Butterfly swords.

So the butterfly swords do have a connection to triads.;)

[Surferdude]

Told you so!!!:mad: :D :p ;)

[Serpent]

There's a book called The Dragon Syndicates - excellent study of the triads, where they came from, how they have developed, etc. Can't remember the author, but well worth a look.

Here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786708697/qid=1058234302/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-9895049-4715029?v=glance&s=books) it is.

[chen zhen]

Nice book. I think I'll look out for it.:cool:

[Ray Pina]

I used to chi sau with a few guys associated with the NYC Freemasons: Mostly Wing Chun (so so) and Southern Mantis (better).

Their skills were not extraordinary but they were agressive! At that point, if I won it was due to being bigger, not better. I never had any problems with them, but a few had problems with losing to an American.

[Liokault]

The triads are still around and are still going strong......may be stronger than ever.

The only time we tend to hear of them in the UK is with connection to people smuggling which is huge business, and with enforced prostitution that gose hand in hand with people smuggling.

Watched a TV program a few years age (Cook report I think ) about triads in the UK and the funny thing is that the head triad guy whilst not teaching kung fu to his gang as such, ran a Kung Fu club to gain the prestige that goes along with the title sifu in the local chinese comunity.

Whilst I think that triads are still strong you must ask your self what a triad is, are they any gang of chinese criminals or are they a long line of disiplined organised criminals who give member ship from ****her to son?

if you belive the former then there are more triad than u think but if you belive the second there are less than u think.







Any way I think thst the Yakuza would own any 10 triad familys.

[AhBenG]

Do a search on google for 14k. The biggest crime syndicate in the world. All over (Chinese) newspapers recently with a massive drug bust.

[hasayfu]

I've done quite a bit of research on this subject. Of course, not being in a triad, my info is at best second hand but it does come from quite a few sources. The Dragon Syndicate is a great book and has the best overall descriptions.

Kung Fu for triads is dictated by the red pole and occasionaly by the dragon head if he was a red pole before. So there is no one style. You get to be red pole by proving yourself in battle and one of the jobs of the red pole is to train the troops so it makes sense he will train them in his form of combat.

At times, triads will sponser a true sifu and use the public school to recruit members. For this reason, many parents would not let their kids learn kung fu. Sponser has many flavors from being high in the org to threats.

Are they around today. Definitely. As strong as before? Stronger. Are they entirely criminal? No. I won't go into details as I could write a book on this stuff. Also, who's to say I have it entirely right?

BTW, I define triads as organizations that claim lineage to the 5 elders and the 3 harmonies. Orgs like the 14K, On Leong, etc. fit in this definition. Gangs like the Big Cirle gang, don't.

I'll post two stories next

[hasayfu]

I knew a guy who was learning Hung Kuen from a sifu sponsered by a triad. The training occured in the triad offices. The story was this sifu was imported from Hong Kong. He had a public teaching schedule and taught anyone who would come. Since the mo kwoon was in Chinatown, it mainly attracted Chinese. The sifu spoke almost no english.

My friend was not a triad member. (ie. he did not go through the initiation) but he was aware of the comings and goings. After a few years, the sifu became heavy in debt from gambling.

One day, he just disappeared. No good bye to the students just no more class. Rumor was the loan sharks broke his legs and he went back to Hong Kong.

Now you may ask, how can a triad have a public office. As I said, the triads are not entirely criminal. Many triad organizations have very legitimate businesses. Most of them have close ties to government and this one in particular had many certificates for community service from the city and state.

[hasayfu]

Told you I could write alot... I'll stop for now unless I get specific questions. This story goes to the type of weapons and the gang mentality that jmd spoke of.

I was in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia in the Chinatown district. I saw two guys arguing over the selling of "illegal" VCDs. Words turned to blows and the two basically did street boxing. Lasted maybe 30 seconds top and one guy was clearly winning so the other guy took off.

Since it was over, I stayed in the area to continue shopping. No more then 3 minutes later, I see the guy who was winning run past me being chased by about 5 people. I'm getting a bit nervous and it's getting late so I hop into a taxi to go back to the hotel.

The taxi drives down the street where the fighting occurred. I am not exagerating, on both sides of the street there are about 30-40 people each and most of them are carrying pipes and some possibly watermelon knives. We drove about 2.5 blocks through this gauntlet.

The two sides were squaring off. They were yelling across the street at each other and brandishing their weapons. I have no idea what came of it. I didn't see any mention in the paper or the TV. My guess, is there was a lot of yelling and the cops came and broke it up. Then again, this kind of thing is bad for tourism and I wouldn't pass the govt to hide it.

I felt like I was in the middle of the "young and dangerous"

[GeneChing]

‘Triads link’ to poachers who killed British pilot (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/648098/Triads-link-poachers-killed-British-pilot)

IVORY poachers who shot dead a British helicopter pilot have links to Chinese Triad gangs, investigators believe.

By JAMES FIELDING, EXCLUSIVE
PUBLISHED: 00:01, Sun, Feb 28, 2016

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/pilot-648098.jpg
PIXEL8000
Roger Gower was killed last month in a game reserve next to the Serengeti National Park in Tanzania

Roger Gower, 37, was killed last month in a game reserve next to the Serengeti National Park in Tanzania.

His murder was carried out by poverty-stricken locals but it was funded by powerful crime bosses in China, where the vast majority of ivory ends up.

An insider said corrupt police officers were turning a blind eye to elephant and rhino poaching because of huge investment in Tanzania by Chinese businesses.

Mr Gower, who was working for the Friedkin Conservation Fund, was on the trail of the poachers when he was hit by a high-calibre bullet fired from the ground which tore through the helicopter’s floor.

Nine men and a woman appeared in court last week, including Niles Gunga, 28, who is said to have fired the fatal shot and is charged with murder.

The others face a string of charges including poaching and possessing weapons. A source close to the investigation claims a corrupt parks employee called Iddy Abdullah Mashaka, a former police officer, hired the poachers.

He is said to have been acting on the orders of a gang financed by the Triads.

The source said: “Ivory smuggling is almost akin to drug dealing. There are young socially deprived kids on the streets serving up crack and heroin, taking the risks while the kingpin at the top of the chain reaps the rewards.

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/pilot-476692.jpg
TANZANIA NATIONAL PARKS/ PASCAL SHELUTEITE
Mr Gower tried to land the helicopter after being shot


Ivory smuggling is almost akin to drug dealing
A source

“The suspects arrested in the Gower murder were, in the main, poor farm boys who were recruited by a corrupt parks employee, a one-time police officer sacked for using excessive force. He in turn was handled by a small group of mysterious individuals, using only first names and throwaway mobile phones, hiding behind business names in the Meatu region of Tanzania.

“They are the facilitators employed by the Chinese to recruit poachers and organise logistics. It’s rare for the Chinese organisers to be close to the contraband. The network involved in the Gower murder also has links to a Chineseowned business in Dar es Salaam, and this business to other shipping companies in Africa and south-east Asia.”

Interpol has set up a unit in Tanzania, which along with much of east Africa has seen a boom in Chinese investment.

The main road leading to Bariadi prison, where Mr Gower’s alleged murderer is being held, was built with Chinese money and expertise.

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/pilot-476693.jpg
PA
Mr Gower was tracking elephant poachers when he was killed

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/pilot-476694.jpg
PIXEL8000
Mr Gower moved to East Africa to work as a pilot

Only a few miles from the prison is a camp for Chinese builders, decorated with lanterns and Chinese symbols.

The road to Dar es Salaam airport reveals dozens of huge but empty office buildings and shopping centres brandishing Chinese slogans.

Our source added: “It’s no coincidence that a rise in Chinese business in the region brings a huge desire for ivory. It’s a potent symbol of power and status in China.”

A 66-year-old Chinese woman was arrested last year accused of smuggling 706 elephant tusks between 2000 and 2014.

I was going to post this in Endangered-Species-in-TCM (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56248-Endangered-Species-in-TCM&p=1240357#post1240357) but it doesn't quite fit there.

[David Jamieson]

With the ever growing Chinese investment in African countries it explains a heck of a lot about the increase in poaching of ivory bearing animals and those who are favoured for expensive organs used in TCM.

Where there are corruptions, there is organized crime.

Cookies have crumbled that way for longer than we've had written language.
:o